Dear DU: Veteran's Day is coming. Please spare us your ritualistic pat on the back this time around

[11 Bravo]

So far, today alone, I have seen soldiers called "murderers", "assassins", "trained killers", and "human wreckage". Fine, it's an internet message board, and anyone has the right to post their thoughts. Hell, the posts are still there. But the only folks I have seen take issue with those sentiments have been a couple of my former brothers-in-arms, and a spouse whose husband has been there.
Because I am a Democrat, I will continue to frequent this board ... even though calling an execrable harridan like Ann Coulter a particularly offensive word will buy one a granite pizza; while calling us "murderers" is business as usual.
But please know, a "Salute to our Veteran's" thread on November 11th won't make that any easier understand.

[Rick Myers]

1. Amen, my brother!!!

K and R

[jpgray]

2. Heck, we called Nancy Pelosi worse back in '06

And she was our incoming Speaker! We mostly like her now... I think? Welcome to the family, whose members hurl vicious rhetoric against each other all day and then all go out for drinks and united mockery of Rick Perry.

[gateley]

3. ...

:hug:

I'm sorry for what some people have said. Not all of us feel that way. Please remember that.

[AlecBGreen]

4. agree

:thumbsup:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

5. k&r

:patriot:

[Bunny]

6. Well, thanks for the sentiment.

But if I want to thank our vets for their service, I think I'll do just that. That's what you fought for, right? :patriot:

[11 Bravo]

9. Fine, and if you want to object when our vets are called an assortment of names ...

it would be OK if you did just that, as well.

[Bunny]

11. Frankly, I'd like links to the threads where they're called

"murderers", "assassins", "trained killers", and "human wreckage". I have no time for people who refer to our soldiers in that manner (I think that's pretty douchey), but again: isn't that what you fought for? FWIW, my kids' father did a tour in Nam, got a purple heart + 90% disability due to agent orange and PTSD. I'd ask him what he thinks about this, but he doesn't like to talk about it.

[mike_c]

7. please explain what the military's role in modern geopolitics has to do...

...with defending the Constitution, or even American values? Your post gives me the impression that you think serving corporate and imperialist interests by killing poor brown people just because they have resources that we want is somehow honorable. Do you?

Let's start by agreeing that it's not. Much of what the U.S. military is doing today is outright thuggery, dressed up with patriotic messages for the masses. Killing people in Irag, Afghanistan, in Africa, etc who are no threat to Americans (but whose countries might threaten American profits) just isn't a good basis for demanding respect from liberals anymore.

If you find this uncomfortable, I recommend the Ignore feature.

[Robb]

12. You forgot "running dogs." (nt)

[11 Bravo]

13. No, let's start with my post.

I am a US Army combat veteran. Do you believe that I am an assassin, murderer, trained killer, or human wreckage? See, that's how it works, Sparky. I started the thread, if you choose to respond, fine. If not, start your own thread.
If you find this uncomfortable, I recommend the "Post" feature.

[mike_c]

18. I don't know anything about you...

...and I'm sorry you want to make this personal. You tell me. Did you kill innocent people because you were ordered to? Do you honestly believe-- if you did that-- that you were defending the U.S. from them? If you didn't think your victims were a threat to the U.S., how do you justify killing them?

If you didn't kill anyone, then the discussion is nonsensical, isn't it? I'm not your conscience. You'll have to look elsewhere to find THAT.

[11 Bravo]

19. Innocent? I don't know.

Since you ask, I do know that I killed two men who were about 50 meters outside of our perimeter. They fucked up and wandered a little bit too far outside the treeline. Each of them was carrying a satchel charge. We were probed later that night, (a few mortars, nothing serious materialized), so maybe they were just coming to say hello. In any case, I'm morally certain that those two men posed not the least threat to the safety and security of the continental United States. So tell me, prof, were they innocent? Am I a murderer?
We put out illumination rounds, so their comrades couldn't drag them away. We retrieved their bodies the next morning. I still dream about them sometimes.

[REP]

14. Explain to me how soldiers, many equally poor, had a say in any decision to go to war

A lot of young people enlist because it's a way to get an education. Some are sold a pack of lies about what they're signing up for. Some see no chance at a decent life or job and enlist. Some - including some from the above groups - enlist our of a sense of wanting to serve their country, but don't think that means invading countries for oil. A very very few are sick fucks, but only a very few.

Not a single one of them has the power to decide when or where to wage war.

I may not like what they are asked to do, but they do not deserve scorn. At all.

Shame on you.

[mike_c]

16. that's all true, but it doesn't change things one whit....

There are a million justifications for moral collapse. It's hard doing the right thing. You might get in trouble. You might not be paid. Whatever. None of that changes the right and wrong of it one bit.

I'm sure MANY young people enlist to "serve their country." I'm a university professor-- I talk to some that do so frequently. My partner's son is a Marine (who admits, when you get him in a talking mood, that he was enticed by the chance to shoot people for "patriotic" reasons).

Their motives might be good, but the work they're turned to has nothing at all to do with serving you, I, or even our commonly held values. What they do-- mostly-- is kill the innocent to make American politicians and corporations wealthier. EVERY single conflict that we're currently engaged in is profit or politics driven. NOT ONE OF THEM has anything to do with defending the U.S. from foreign military threats. All of them betray our essential values, unless venality is our guiding principle now. And you know what? It is.

[REP]

20. Your reasoning is as faulty as your grammar.

Damn the politicians and the generals, not the children who are coerced into playing their deadly games.

[MH1]

8. You have an excellent point. It ticks me off too.

[cliffordu]

10. K&R. Nice post.

[Major Hogwash]

15. Fuck, Veteran's Day!?! You'll be lucky to still be here after Halloween!!

Cuz I'm going to scare the shit outta ya!!
I'm not wearing a mask this year!!


:rofl:

[sufrommich]

17. Ignore the asshole remarks about American soldiers. Most

are written by trolls trying their hardest to make liberals appear as nasty as every right wing stereotype out there.

[unhappycamper]

21. I'm trying to find a jungle fatigue top (remember those things)?

I'm leaning towards getting a nametag that sez "Gangster" in honor of Smedley Darlington Butler.

I've taken two trips to Nam:
-> trip #1 I saw Tet of 68 up close and personal (Chu Lai)
-> trip #2 I was in the invasion of Cambodia (Cu Chi). If that's not a gangster for capitalism I don't know what is.


The 2008 Winter Soldier hearings in DC told us what was/is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot of that is the same shit we did 40 years ago. Kill em with napalm, kill em with Willie Pete, kill em at night, kill as many of them as you possibly can.



My intention is not to denigrate any veterans; it is merely to point out the futility of war.

[hfojvt]

22. blech, nice call out of DU

If there are posts you find objectionable, why not respond to them, instead of calling out a whole group, many of whom have not seen any of the posts you are talking about. You don't know how many people even saw those posts. You don't know how many people alerted on those posts. You don't know how many people read the posts and thought "what a farking a-hole" but didn't respond, because the only things they could readily think to say would have been against DU rules.

So because you read three or four posts you find objectionable probably made by one or two people, that somehow makes those who would honor veterans on Veterans' Day, into hypocrites?

You probably should read MineralMan's signature line, where he says that "this post is my opinion ..." (paraphrased). A post made by him, or me, or any other DUer is not thereby endorsed by all of DU or even 80% or 40% of DU.

Thw front page of DU shows 56 million posts made in less than 11 years. That averages to 14,000 posts per day. Most DUers are probably reading less than 1,000 posts per day or about 7% of the total. Meaning that most DUers don't see over 90% of the posts on DU. I said that many years ago - 90% of DU does not read 90% of DU. Who would have the time. If it takes 10 seconds to read a post, then it would take 140,000 seconds to read all of them on an average day (and I bet the average of the last year is higher than the overall average) 140,000 seconds is 38 hours.

Then there's the time it takes to write a dozen or more posts per day. At two minutes per post, that is almost half an hour a day.

So most of the people reading your OP probably did not see the posts you are complaining about.

[JoeyT]

23. I haven't seen the posts you're referring to, but I have no doubt they're there.

Question: If the military personnel are "human wreckage", wouldn't that be our fault and our responsibility to fix rather than theirs?

[Bobbie Jo]

24. K&R

And thank you. Excellent post.