The juxtaposition of the praise for Steve Jobs and OWS is blowing my mind

[hugo_from_TN]

On the one hand the DU collective is bashing capitalism, the 1% at the top, inflated corporate profits and pay to executives, and the outsourcing of jobs.

On the other hand is slavish praise for one of the most successful capitalists of all time, who reached the very top of the 1% by imposing huge profit margins on his products, awarded himself massive stock options (15% cap gains tax), for which almost all of the labor was outsourced at slave wages to the Chinese.

I don't get it.

[MrSlayer]

1. I said this in another thread.

I agree. And Jobs was a Union basher. Not a fan.

[leveymg]

176. Enough about Steve Jobs and Mac/PC pseudowars. This OWS thread was f-cking hijacked

G-d - it's like the "tastes great/less filling" chorus of commercial messages took over, leaving no political space left for the rest of us.

One might almost suspect this was on purpose. If so, the worst offenders should be banned.

[occupy_wall_street]

218. INVITATION TO WALL STREET - Please come on Saturday, October 8th at 11 AM

Please assemble peacefully at 140 Broadway.

A company such as Apple or General Motors or the old Ben & Jerrys has a responsibility to act in a responsible manner. Profit is not bad, but adding social justice makes these organizations much better.

The companies of Financial Capitalism are different. The crimes of their employees are what produced the Great Recession of 2008 and massive unemployment. They also took trillions of dollars from retirement funds and from other small investors.

Prosecute Wall Street's criminals. Fraud is still fraud. Banking regulations cannot to cited to usurp the general protections of the Common Law.

No one ever thought of prosecuting Steve Job for anything. He was not a criminal. He was a good man.

Steve Jobs would not have been a success on today's Wall Street. "We Are The 1%" was not his motto.

"Think different" about sums it up.

-- DU members are all invited to come to the Occupy Wall Street site on Saturday, October 8th at 11 AM

-- Please assemble peacefully at the Red Cube at 140 Broadway, at the corner of Broadway and Liberty Street

-- A speaker from OWS will greet everyone from DU. A statement of purpose and an invitation to support OWS will be presented.

That site can accommodate 250 DU members and their friends easily. As many as 1,000 extra people connected to DU can be accommodated directly with OWS plans for Saturday afternoon.



Freely exercise your freedom of speech and of the press; and the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please, feel free to do all of this with Occupy Wall Street.

[provis99]

2. Steve Jobs was a wealthy computer salesman.

I'm not sure why that qualifies one for a media eulogy, but there it is. Hey, even Donald Trump will get a media eulogy when he croaks.

[Bake]

160. He was just a BIT more than a computer salesman.

The fact that you are posting to DU on a personal computer or other consumer computing device is a testament to what Jobs did.

If it weren't for Jobs there would be no personal computers ... no Twitter ... no social media ... no Arab Spring ... no incredible communications in the 21st Century.

So I think Mr. Jobs is a lot better than most any other corporate CEO, and I don't begrudge him his wealth. He's contributed a lot more to the world than say, Jack Welch, Jeff Immelt, or just abut any other corporate CEO on the planet.

Even the evil Bill Gates has been a huge philanthropist and done a lot of good in the world.

Not all wealthy people are evil. If you need another example, there's Warren Buffet ...

Bake

[Wait Wut]

186. Well, hell just froze over.

I agreed with Bake. ;)

Well said.

[RamboLiberal]

204. I can't agree with 2nd paragraph - all still would've happened without Jobs

But yes he was an innovator & a driving force in consumer tech & communication.

Media coverage is a bit overblown but remember the orgy when Michael Jackson died?

[KamaAina]

3. Well, at this very moment, many of the Occupiers are using Apple products

to communicate and keep things going.

[provis99]

10. yes, and all of it vastly overpriced.

But that was always the signature of Apple; paying 2-3 times as much for an Apple product over a competitor's seems to be the norm.

[Hello World]

19. myth

[Logical]

24. Not true, overpriced on the PC side! I have done head to head for corporations!

[Hello World]

27. sorry, but you get what you pay for

[Logical]

31. And the CULT mentality works on gullible customers! Take out the LOVE and...

The numbers do not lie!

[Hello World]

34. Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius

[Logical]

37. You really don't have any facts! Just figured that out!

[Hello World]

42. fail

The White House

Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
October 05, 2011
Statement by the President on the Passing of Steve Jobs

Michelle and I are saddened to learn of the passing of Steve Jobs. Steve was among the greatest of American innovators - brave enough to think differently, bold enough to believe he could change the world, and talented enough to do it.

By building one of the planet’s most successful companies from his garage, he exemplified the spirit of American ingenuity. By making computers personal and putting the internet in our pockets, he made the information revolution not only accessible, but intuitive and fun. And by turning his talents to storytelling, he has brought joy to millions of children and grownups alike. Steve was fond of saying that he lived every day like it was his last. Because he did, he transformed our lives, redefined entire industries, and achieved one of the rarest feats in human history: he changed the way each of us sees the world.

The world has lost a visionary. And there may be no greater tribute to Steve’s success than the fact that much of the world learned of his passing on a device he invented. Michelle and I send our thoughts and prayers to Steve’s wife Laurene, his family, and all those who loved him.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/10/05/statement-president-passing-steve-jobs

[Logical]

44. WTF....we're does that mention price calculations?

[Hello World]

45. same place your post does

[Name removed]

49. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wait Wut]

188. ...

:thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

165. Anectodal but still

we have at home a pc for hubby's gaming and a macbook.

They are about the same age.

The PC has gone to the shop a few times... to replace parts, and to load an OS after it got an achoo I could not fix. Parts and labor have fun over 1200 bucks... never mind that next time it needs a new chipset et al we will just further frankestein that machine. Yes it was top of range, why it was not worth replacing it.

The Macbook gone to shop to replace a drive for bigger drive and upgrade RAM once, no issues with achoos, and no need for virus software.

The Macbook in my mind has been a better and more solid investment and if games were available on mac, guess what? We'd fully be a mac household by this time.

[MedicalAdmin]

183. I know we flipped most of our clinic computers to mac ...

... mostly to save money on operations and maintenance. We aren't big enough to have a full time geek employed to fix (at least in my experience PC's were like the old fords - fix or repair daily).


Having said that I still use a few PC's at work for certain diagnostic programs (yah I know they can be run on apples, but it is easier for them to be on single function machines for logistic reasons) and as long as they NEVER get near the internet they work fine.

[Major Hogwash]

124. +1000 I totally agree.

That's the best line said here today recognizing Jobs' genius and his ability as a visionary.
Jobs is the only computer person I have ever known who had to wait for technology to catch up to his vision.

They can't say that about anyone else.

[JVS]

150. aka "Only the virtuous can see these clothes."

[lumberjack_jeff]

206. You'll never get the cool factor of white headphones unless you pay up.

Status is something worth paying for - provided it's not your own money.

[cherokeeprogressive]

60. The Apple iMac STARTS at $1199. I can put a PC in every room of my home for slightly more than that

I can also network them wirelessly, for just over the starting price of the Apple desktop computer.

[Hello World]

63. an apple desktop starts at $599

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

and, like i said above, you get what you pay for :p

[cherokeeprogressive]

66. Where's the monitor?

[Hello World]

68. on your desk

[Wait Wut]

189. Damn.

Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

[cherokeeprogressive]

71. So for $599 I get a monitor too?

[chillspike]

131. An iPad starts at $599

and in a lot of ways is superior to a desktop.

[Logical]

69. Jesus, you are clueless!

[Hello World]

72. i know a thing or two about computers considering i program them for a living

and have been for 20 years ;)

[Logical]

74. Sure you do! COBOL maybe. If you code like you compare prices I would not hire you!

[Hello World]

76. i am working at a fortune 100 company on their latest and greatest tech

and have been invited to interviews around the world, on their dime, and the pros don't do that if you are not on the bleeding edge, and know what you are talking about.

Here is one of my creations (still in beta) but also on the front page of google...
http://css3buttonmaker.com

google: css3 button maker

now, what were you saying?

[eShirl]

103. if you are serious... BWAHAHAHA!

[Hello World]

105. nah, i just make stuff on the internets

nothing serious in that, i suppose :hi:

[Hello World]

78. nt

[Wait Wut]

190. Proof?

I'm going to have to disagree with your comment based on lack of factual content.

[Occulus]

84. Actualy, you DON'T get what you pay for

Here's what you get for the $599 macmini:

2.3GHz dual-core Intel Core i5
2GB memory
500GB hard drive1
Intel HD Graphics 3000
OS X Lion

Ow. That's... really rather pathetic. 2.3GHz dual core? Are you kidding? For that price?

Here's a similarly-priced PC at TigerDirect:

SYX Ascent OSG-2 Intel E5800 3.0GHz, Genuine Windows® 7 Home Premium 64 Bit, 4GB DDR3 Memory, NVIDIA 1GB GT 430 GFX, 500GB Hard Drive, Lightscribe DVDRW, U.S. Based 24/7 Support & Warranty

Oh, I'm sorry. The above costs $529.97. But if you're not in the mood for a gaming PC such as that one, they have comparable :rofl: desktop PCs there, too:

HP Pro 3130 XZ893UT Desktop PC - Intel Core i5-650 3.20GHz, 4GB DDR3, 500GB HDD, DVDRW, Windows 7 Professional 32-bit

Which clocks in at $569.99.

If you'd like me to continue demolishing the myth that you "get what you pay for" with Apple computers, please, say so. I can do this all night long, because the sad fact is and always has been that with Apple computers, you get almost exactly half the speed and memory (and thus, capability) you would get for a PC at a lower price.

[Hello World]

86. $569.99 vs $599 yeah, thats a huge difference - lol

not to mention you don't get the mac OS, which is custom designed for the hardware, which then allows you to run all 3 of the major OS (Mac, LINUX, and Windows).

and let's also not forget that you don't get, cheap hardware, buggy software, and virus prone internet browsing.

The Myth that macs are 'way over priced' is just that. A Myth.

[Confusious]

112. You get the exact same hardware as a PC

Or hadn't you noticed they switched over. I can run OSX on a dell mini really well. I can run it on a PC, if I really wanted to. But I like a little freedom to make my computer the way I want. So I run Linux.

Basically, you're paying a premium for the name.

Seems like a deal to me.

P.s. Run Linux, you get good software, no virii. "Software custom designed for the hardware" GOD *SNORT**** that is HILARIOUS. You do software? :rofl: **SNORT***

[Lint Head]

73. Yeth?

From the Muppet Movie.

[chillspike]

130. Lol

I bought a Mac mini because I couldn't afford anything else. You can get an iPad, which has more capabilities than most computers ever had, for $599 or a price comparable to a Mac mini. When desktops had typically been in the $800-$1000+ range that's a huge price slash for a superior product. And Apple also slashed the price of it's Operating System to $29 bucks from somewhere in the hundreds. Yes, they have high priced products but they also have relatively affordable ones too.

[Bake]

162. Yes, because his stuff WORKS.

Pricey? Yes. So are Gibson guitars, but ask Jimmy Page if he'd play anything besides a Les Paul ...

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

Bake

[Wait Wut]

193. WTF?

Okay, that was probably the best quote I've seen on DU in a long time. Either you or I has a fever. :rofl:

[JVS]

140. If they were throwing Molotov cocktails, would we gush about Exxon/Mobil having provided them...

with an incendiary liquid par excellence?

[Lint Head]

4. The very technology that we are using to communicate the OWS events can be

tied back to his concepts.

[Fire Walk With Me]

6. Ding!

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Not really, no

the Internet? ARPA. The personal computer? Xerox, as we know it today. The smartphone? Nokia and others had them years before Apple, all Apple did was add the touchscreen.

[Hello World]

22. apple made products that folks actually want, and that is why they are the leader

apple sets the standard that the rest try hard to match but usually fall short.

[Dawson Leery]

80. Blackberry certainly predates the IPhone and from experience,

I prefer Blackberry.

[AverageJoe90]

93. They both contributed.

(p.s. Blackberry was invented by Canadians, for those who didn't know. =) )

[Hello World]

101. good example of how apple made smart phones better, and now blackberry is a dying breed

you are in the minority in regards to your smart phone preference.

[JVS]

142. "you are in the minority in regards to your smart phone preference."

Think about the implications of that comment when applied to the Personal Computer.

[Dawson Leery]

182. Nonsense! RIM, Nokia, Sony, Samsung, Palm, Motorola, HP,etc all make smartphones.

The iPhone is certainly NOT the only option in the market.

[Wait Wut]

196. Heh.

My son raved about his new Droid when he got it. Cheaper and "better" than the iPhone, he claimed. He's had it for a year, all his buddies have iPhones...he's pissed off. Can't get out of his contract and keeps drooling over his stepbrothers' iPhones.

Hey, I warned him.

[Bake]

163. OH yeah, only added the touchscreen ...

That was no biggie ... right.

Bake

[Confusious]

114. Eh, no

As someone else said.

Jobs just made boutique computers for people who had a lot of money and didn't have the time to learn how to use one.

He really didn't "innovate" or make any technology.

[joshcryer]

121. HAHAHA! The technology we are using to communicate is facilitated by open source / free software.

You've gotta be kidding me. Steve Jobs was as anti-consumer as they come.

[rpannier]

5. Not a fan of jobs

He was anti-union and anti-teacher
I just decided to let it go rather than voice my disapproval

[lonestarnot]

7. As well as mine. I just turned the damn crap off.

[OhioChick]

8. Well said and agreed n/t

[bluestateguy]

9. Apple produced an actual tangible product

Wall Street spends hours every day trading things that don't exist, and doing the world major damage in the process.

[AverageJoe90]

90. Yes, Apple may have made a few unfortunate business mistakes.......

but Jobs and buddies did actually try to bring innovation to the marketplace with products that improved millions of lives; Wall Street has done NOTHING of the sort.
Some people may not be big fans of Mister Jobs but he does deserve some credit.

[LisaM]

11. Ever seen "The Agony and Ecstacy of Steve Jobs"?

It's a one-person show that brilliantly dissects the dichotomy. The work conditions are horrible and what is most disturbing is how they need very young workers to put together the ever-smaller parts. I don't know if the show will continue, but if you get any chance to see it, do so.

[frazzled]

12. Steve Jobs wasn't making money from money

He actually created something, things that changed the very ways in which people live and communicate--from Apple to Pixar. He was a billionaire, but took only $1 in salary as CEO of Apple. Why not.

But most of all, to me, he made beautiful things. He made technology beautiful. He earned every nickel he made. People bought his products by choice, and I dare say a goodly portion of the OWS protesters are out there with their iPhones.

So rail about all the rest. But your world would be less without Steve Jobs. Besides, it's really crass to bellyache when anyone that young dies so tragically. If that is the spirit of the OWS movement, then it is not a very pretty thing.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frazzled]

56. Honestly, you do dishonor to the OWS movement with this crap

Think what you want, but when people die you shut up for the moment. Anything else is crude and uncivilized. That's not the face of the kind of society OWS is supposedly trying to build.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dreamer Tatum]

187. So did Sam Walton. Got any words of praise for him, or is WalMart not sleek enough for you? nt

[phleshdef]

13. I don't hate rich people, Wall Street or anyone else. I hate bad policies.

OWS is about bad policies, its not about any particular person. There is no contradiction in celebrating Steve Jobs and supporting the OWS protests.

[hugo_from_TN]

20. If it was about policy OWS wouldn't be targetting the 1%

The 1% are people (like Steve Jobs and Warren Buffet), not policy.

[leftstreet]

29. +1

[phleshdef]

171. So you are saying the OWS people are trying to outlaw Warren Buffet's existence?

You aren't making any sense whatsoever.

The reason anyone has a problem with the top 1% is because of unfair taxation policy and the permissive lack of regulation that both seem to favor the wealthy. They don't have a problem with the 1% simply because they have more money. I think its really sad that you would accuse the OWS protestors of being so shallow and unnuanced as to base their position on such weak ideas. If everyone was paying their fair share and mega corporations were not allowed to exercise such massive influence on our political system and thus subjecting the whole economy to the price of their own failures, there would be no OWS protest because there would be no reason for it. Look at the signs these protestors are carrying calling for higher taxes on the wealthy so we can afford to help the middle class and calling for more regulation. Those are policy issues.

[Pithlet]

221. Nope. That's why those who are squawking about hypocrisy are wrong.

THe OWS aren't just a bunch of socialist wackos who just hate the rich.

[hlthe2b]

15. Celebrating his innovation and power to inspire is not the same...

as suggesting he is without criticism or should be held up as the ultimate hero.

[Mz Pip]

25. I agree

I've got a lot of criticisms of Jobs, but airing them now just doesn't seem appropriate.

[gauguin57]

137. Now THERE's a sensible post. That could serve as the last word on this subject.

There are lots of people who can be admired for their ingenuity, while they can be slammed for some of the ways they use that ingenuity. We could also talk about the whole anti-Flash issue ... but, hey. The guy was talented and influential, and he just died, for chrissakes.

Here's a bunch of interesting trivia about Jobs. He was a complex person, as many of us are. Nobody's perfect. He studied Buddhism. Dated Joan Baez. Initially denied paternity of his first child. ...

http://bit.ly/qO1VNx

Love him or hate him -- or something in between -- Jobs helped develop products a lot of people want to use.

I'm a PC, but would probably have one of each in my home if I could afford it. Mac users I know are absolutely passionate about the products (though I still think they're playing with fire if they're buying them only because they think they can never get viruses ... that's what I've heard from some of my Mac friends. yikes.)

Anyway, I love my iPod -- because of the 800 (mostly public radio and iTunes U) podcasts I have on there. Could I love another brand? Probably. But I love my iPod. Love it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

16. Jobs is correctly or incorrectly perceived as an innovator

That'snot to say that he did not have deep flaws, but Americans love the idea of someone who makes profits by coming up with a truly superior product or idea.

The people I see as the targets of the protests are making their money by means of speculation, system-gaming, and outright criminality.

[izquierdista]

17. I get it

People still have envy for Jobs, and all his wealth, and being able to run things his way. So fine, go ahead an envy him. I won't. I may be the same age as him, but instead of riches, I was blessed with good health.

[kag]

47. It's not a zero sum game.

If it were Bill Gates would have been taken out long before Jobs. He's many times wealthier, and unlike Jobs, he stole most of what he profited on.

[Hello World]

18. steve jobs was a great man who helped change the world, and his products help spread the word

psst... pass the word!

[bigwillq]

35. Hello.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Hello World]

46. thank you bigwillq

:hi:

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. Steve Jobs was a monumental asshole

he was a very successful and brilliant asshole, but he was still an asshole. Little story: in 1976, Jobs was working for Atari. They assigned him to work on Breakout, and offered $750 plus a hundred bucks bonus for every chip he could eliminate from the circuit board design. He went to his friend Steve Wozniak who he knew was good at this, and offered a fifty-fifty split. Wozniak's design eliminated FIFTY chips from the design, for a five-grand bonus. Jobs neglected to mention the bonus, so Wozniak's "50-50 split" was...$375. THAT'S Steve Jobs. That may be part of what made him successful, but I'm not sure it makes him a great man.

Then there's his cutting all charitable spending by Apple in one of his first acts as CEO; Apple was near bankrupt at the time, so, fair enough; he said then "we can wait until we're profitable again". Now Apple is the most profitable and most highly-valued company on the planet. And how much charitable giving to they do? Not a penny. Jobs, for his billions, didn't either.

[Hello World]

43. zzzZZZzzz

[provis99]

48. yeah, he constantly screwed over Wozniak.

Wozniak actually invented the Apple I and II computers; Jobs just took the money. Wozniak went on to do school mentoring, and Jobs went on to become Bill Gates Light.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KamaAina]

169. Note that San Jose's Children's Discovery Museum is located on Woz Way

not "Steve Jobs Plaza".

[kag]

54. Wrong.

Not sure whose decision it was, but Apple announced a new policy just a few weeks ago. Any employee who donates to a 501c3, Apple will match it.

Also, if you think about it, Apple always made their stuff available cheaper to students. I know it's not the kind of sexy donating that the Gateses do, but it made a big difference to a lot of students. And yes, the company profited by making those students loyal customers for life, but that wouldn't have happened if they didn't make great products in the first place.

[Spider Jerusalem]

57. "just a few weeks ago" being when? Oh yeah, after Jobs left.

And cheaper to students still means "priced higher than a comparable Windows machine" (a 15% discount on something that's overpriced by anywhere from 30-100% is not so great).

[MedicalAdmin]

191. Totally unrelated ...

... what is the picture in your sig line? I kinda sorta think I might recognize it, but the memory just isn't bubbling up.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

127. Um, a 5-10% break is not at all generous.

I know; I'm a college instructor who just dropped 6k on a new Mac Pro...WITH my discount!

[MedicalAdmin]

192. Really? Wow.

I just replaced one at at the clinic and we only spend in the 2K range for our medical director.

And say what you will about the discount but I'll take 10% when I can get it. I look at macs like certain types of used cars. Some have high demand and hold value and others ... not so much.

[chillspike]

132. Steve Jobs was just a human being

He did void. He did bad. He's dead. Why can't we celebrate the good he did?

[Lorien]

126. That's all true. I'm an Apple "loyalist" because of the products ease of use

but I won't pretend that the company is moral or altruistic, because it's not. Neither are any other of the large computer manufacturers (though there is the Gates foundation). The whole Foxconn issue should have turned a lot of DUers against the corporate decision makers at Apple, but somehow brand loyalty allowed most to turn a blind eye to those problems. Those of us who use Apple products are the very ones who should push them to be more responsible corporate "citizens".

[MedicalAdmin]

195. Good point, and many apple owners didn't turn a blind eye to it.

Like many issues, it is only possible to do something about them if you know about them. I wrote letters and let my business account rep, when he called every 6 months that we weren't buying until apple did something. And then I ended up buying another one when told to by my boss.

But I knew about it and I let apple know that I knew. On the other hand it seems that this is a universal issue.

[Lost-in-FL]

224. +1, nt

[moondust]

21. And he's had one foot in the grave for years.

It's not a surprise that he finally lost the battle. No doubt the media had a lot of tributes ready to go when the time finally came.

I wonder how many jobs he moved to cheap labor markets so that he could be a one percenter.

[eallen]

23. Capitalism isn't the problem. Market fundamentalism is the problem.

Most here would not want to live in one of the nations lacking a stock market. Capitalism, for all its problems, is also the essential engine that churns out technological innovation. We need it. And the innovators it fosters. Like Steve Jobs.

That doesn't mean it must be worshiped as the sole measure of society. We need regulation to protect the environment, public schools to teach even the poorest of the next generation, a watchful regulation of financial institutions, a social safety net that keeps us from falling too far in our decrepitude, and much else.

Liberals don't battle capitalism. Indeed, liberals are the ones who, again and again, have saved capitalism. That is what FDR knew he was doing: saving capitalism. What liberals battle is market fundamentalism.

And Jobs was not a market fundamentalist.

:hippie:

[SkyDaddy7]

129. Your comment has been the best...

comment I have read so far on this thread! And probably the best description of who Jobs was, what he did & why he is far more valuable to the USA than your typical Wall Street Market Fundamentalist. Thanks!

I would take 100000 more Steve Jobs in this world before I would even consider another Wall Street Market Fundamentalist!

[MedicalAdmin]

184. Brilliant analysis.

Market fundamentalism is the problem.


Nail: Head.

[Lucian]

26. Isn't it amazing?

I'm probably only one of the few people here who has been consistently against Apple from the start.

[Hello World]

28. .

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Logical]

32. I noticed that also! Just an apple cult member!

[Hello World]

41. lame insults don't deserve any serious comment

[provis99]

51. heh...Apple Cult...

[Logical]

55. Good one!

[bigwillq]

33. That's why I'm watching baseball!

:bounce:

Can't believe my local news led with Jobs. I turned it off and turned back on the game. The Cable News Shows are wetting themselves over Jobs.

[Whats_Happening]

38. I share your feeling, but I think I do understand what's going on with all this --

First, I will grant that Steve Jobs did a lot for the computing world when he began, back in the 70s. I've learned the importance of that from some of the Jobs threads.

But tonight, on DU and all around the internets, the wailing and gnashing of teeth, the vehemence of it, comes not merely from old computer-heads who remember the 70s. It comes because over the past 10 years or so, Jobs and Apple have produced products that many, many upper-middle class people want or need as talismans of privilege, as class markers, as the 21st-century technological equivalent of club ties and crested blazers.

And as we have rolled through this 21st century, with the economy bumping along on empty if not actually crashing, the upper-middle classes eagerly camp out year after year to shell out too much money to buy the latest talisman -- the iPod, the iMac, the "Airbook" (remember that ridiculosity?) the iPhone 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. etc., the iPad, and whatever hell next Apple will come out with. Who cares that, especially in today's economy, the vast majority of Americans can't afford to spend so much on technological do-dads -- who cares that Apple's Chinese contractors had to put "suicide nets" around their workers' dormitories.

So it's no accident comrade, no accident at all that tonight at DU and elsewhere the upper-middle classes are wailing as though this was Good Friday, and Jesus Christ himself just expired on the cross -- "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

-----

And the thing of it is, the upper-middle classes these days are astoundingly un-self-aware: take for example the threads about the traders in Chicago who put up that obnoxious "We Are The 1%" sign -- I was astounded by the people who felt compelled to say that those traders are hardly 1%. I'm sorry, stockbrokers make good money! Don't forget the bonuses! According to the WSJ, the top 1% income in America is at $278,000 or over. It's highly likely that those stockbrokers make that.

And guess what, the top 5% make $120,000 or over. But there are people even here at DU who want to tell us that "no one can survive" where they live on less than 120K a year. The upper-middle class like to think that their shit doesn't stink, but it does.

And I know what iPad revolutionaries want to tell me now -- "Oh, anyone making an income is a virtual proletarian." Yes, they would have us believe that the only predators in this system are a literal handful of independently wealthy billionaires; that way, they can buy all the iCrap they want, subsist entirely on "organic" food and gentrify old neighborhoods out of existence with a clear conscience.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello World]

52. Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius

think about it...

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frazzled]

64. I call bullshit on your crested blazer nonsense

I ride the els in Chicago every day, and let me tell you it is not exclusively the upper classes whipping out their iPhones. Well, it wouldn't be on the Green Line, which I ride, because about 80% of the people on that line are African American.

A recent Pew Study showed that "44% of blacks and Latinos are smartphone users." (That, by the way, is equal to the national average.) And yes, a good number of those have iPhones, as opposed to Androids or Blackberries (which of course, wouldn't exist had the iPhone not come out.) http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2054/smartphone-ownership-demographics-iphone-blackberry-android

Just stop this applying this class shit to everything, especially the death from cancer of a visionary American. It's not the appropriate place.

[Whats_Happening]

75. 44% of blacks and Latinos, 35% of all US adults --

Thanks for the link, but what I'd really like to see are some numbers on nonwhite ownership of actual iPhones. For one thing, that study asked people if they owned a "smartphone" which is a really confusing word. My phone, for example, can take pictures, send texts, and send emails as well. Does that make it a "smartphone?" It doesn't enable me to surf the web though, so I guess it doesn't count?

Sounds like we travel through similar locales -- I currently live in the northern Bronx, and ride our subways here a lot. Everyone, especially young kids have techno-gadgets these days it seems, but at least from what I have seen, iPhones (and iPads, etc.) are generally a white phenomenon, unsurprisingly, since Apple's whole hipster/yuppie upper-middle class vibe is very much a white one.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chollybocker]

40. Release his tax returns!1!!

no lol

I'm old enough to have owned the first line of Apple Macintosh, with a desktop and icons and a cool mouse. Steve Jobs managed to connect the computer's codes to the kinetic human being. Then Bill Gates swiped his idea, and the rest is history.

rip

[hugo_from_TN]

61. Dude - He stole it all from Xerox PARC

the mouse, the desktop, all of it.

Sheesh, the ignorance...

[Logical]

67. +1000, the apple fans forget this part!

[Hello World]

70. thats bs, he actually built, packaged, and marketed productS that people wanted

and the rest of the industry are still trying to catch up to what apple does.

if it is so easy, why haven't they?

[ScreamingMeemie]

79. Unfortunately he didn't price them accordingly.

[Hello World]

81. you get what you pay for

[ScreamingMeemie]

85. I've got a great little Vaio that I got for a steal 6 years ago.

No viruses. Same with my 4 year old Toshiba laptop (a hand me down). No money spent on repairs. I'm pretty happy that I spent a quarter of what an Apple product would have cost me, one who truly cannot afford that stuff...just to somehow find myself "better" than others. Sorry. I'll keep my trusty 6 year old flip phone and my computer. We're content. It is a sad thing that Steve Jobs has died. But he was a man, subject to greed. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I will somehow survive not playing "angry birds" in my lifetime. :)

And, on edit, my son hates me because I refuse to spend money on an iPhone for him...or an iPod for that matter. He'll survive without it. I'm sure of it.

[Hello World]

88. he can get an iPhone for free now

but im sure your bias won't allow for that, too.

[ScreamingMeemie]

98. Not a bias. It's a matter of money.

Our phone contract certainly does not cover use of an iPhone for free. :) We're content. Well, at least I am, with more money in my wallet. And, as I said... he'll get over it. :D

[MedicalAdmin]

197. I get budgets.

We have iPhones at our clinic for staff use. The contract we have is no more expensive than the previous non - iphone contract we had and it included cell to cell calls free, free texts between staff and unlimited downloads. But we got our contract when they first came out and haven't modified it since. Also, we won a contest being run by American Expresses small business unit which essentially covered the cost of them (the purchase had to be for equipment used by the company - not personal items). It was either the iphones or a truck load of tongue depressors.

But if we hadn't received that windfall I probably wouldn't have purchased them. I heard sprint is getting the iPhone and they are going to be offering unlimited plans.

[Hello World]

82. nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

87. Someone else did that for him, but you knew that already, didn't you?

He stopped "building" his product, stopped "packaging" his product, and HIRED people to MARKET his product early on.

"he actually built..." Now that's funny.

[Hello World]

91. yeah, other people built what he envisioned, and believed in

what, you think you can run a global company by yourself? :shakes-head:

[cherokeeprogressive]

102. Nope. Just trying to add some clarity to a dumb statement.

"actually..." Look it up, programmer.

[Hello World]

104. lol - yeah, thanks for all the clarity

[MedicalAdmin]

198. Gee, just like every other business person on the planet.

I have employees. I pay them rather than myself (when invoices went down post 2008 it was either drop an employee or stop paying myself so... I kept the employee).I don't do everything. I hire people who have skills to do things for me. Just like I am hiring a guy to pour a sidewalk in my back yard to my garage so I'm not shoveling my lawn like last year.


Commerce. It's not evil until evil is done with it. I pay a fair dollar for a fair job. That is how things are done on main street, or at least that is how they should be done.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Confusious]

115. Not BS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface

Maybe people did want it. To bad windows and Intel control 90% of the computer market. Maybe they didn't want the stuff so bad after all.

[Taitertots]

222. HE didn't do any of that... Other people did and he siphoned away money from them

Why haven't they... They have but apple fanboys/fangirls would rather pay 3x as much for the corporate logo.

[chollybocker]

89. Dude, I never claimed to be an expert on the subject.

I'm just relaying my personal experience with the world of PCs in the 80's. My apparently erroneouos perception might well have enlightened you, but no such luck. Piss off.

[AverageJoe90]

94. I'm sorry but I'll have to call B.S. on that, 'till I see proof.

[eShirl]

151. That's where it came from, but I wouldn't characterize it as stealing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_%28company%29#The_GUI

Adoption by Apple

The first successful commercial GUI product was the Apple Macintosh, which was heavily inspired by PARC's work; Xerox was allowed to buy pre-IPO stock from Apple, in exchange for engineer visits and an understanding that Apple would create a GUI product. Much later, in the midst of the Apple v. Microsoft lawsuit in which Apple accused Microsoft of violating its copyright by appropriating the use of the "look and feel" of the Macintosh GUI, Xerox also sued Apple on the same grounds. The lawsuit was dismissed because the presiding judge ruled "that Xerox's complaints were inappropriate for a variety of legal reasons," <6>

[eShirl]

109. GUI came from Xerox PARC, mouse came from Douglas Engelbart's Augmentation Research Center at SRI

[Major Hogwash]

117. Who put them together, hard drive breath?

Geez, you act like YOU invented something!

[eShirl]

119. excuse me? Xerox PARC was the first to put them together, if you must know.

Apple, of course, mass marketed the combo.

[Major Hogwash]

123. Hahaha. Man, how you people just love to bash geniuses around here blows me away.

If it weren't for Jobs, we wouldn't be talking on the internet.
Because before Jobs invented the first commercially viable home computer, there was no need for the internet.

[eShirl]

125. You're the one bashing, not me.

1) Apple allowed Xerox PARC to buy pre-IPO Apple stock in exchange for engineer visits and the understanding Apple would create a commercial GUI

2) the internet existed before Apple Computers

[Prophet 451]

153. Bullshit

The internet came out of the military's invention of ARPAnet (because they needed a decentralised network), Tim Berners-Lee and the geeks at MIT.

[Major Hogwash]

155. Dude, Jobs invented the iPod, the iPad, the iPhone, and the iMac.

Here's your business lesson of the day -- stay the fuck out of mine!!!

[Prophet 451]

156. And? I'm not disputing any of that

The only part I'm disputing is your contention that Jobs was responsible for the web because he plain wasn't.

[Spider Jerusalem]

164. The Internet's been around since 1969

Arpanet?

[Major Hogwash]

172. The WorldWideWeb started in 1995.

Come back again for lesson #2.

[Spider Jerusalem]

175. 1990-1991

at CERN. Originally using a line mode browser written for Unix.

[Major Hogwash]

177. And that's not an Apple product, is it?

Incredible!

[Spider Jerusalem]

178. Unix? Nope! Shockingly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix

[Lionessa]

58. Ding Ding Ding.

[RegieRocker]

59. The hypocrisy abounds throughout the spectrum

left, middle and right.

[ScreamingMeemie]

62. Seriously.

I felt sad for the loss of a fellow human...and it is amazing what two men created in a garage. Pity they let greed get in the way.

[Tom Ripley]

65. Not me; I have never cried at The Death of a Salesman and I'm not about to start today

[MedicalAdmin]

199. +1 for literary reference. n/t

[DirkGently]

77. The world's not black & white. Jobs didn't invent credit default swaps. Pretty petty to bash him now

For Christ's sake, with the Apple bashing. The man died a painful death. I didn't see the post nominating him for sainthood, but a lot of people appreciate good design. What exactly is the problem with that?

I don't take issue with anyone criticizing Apple's labor issues, etc., other than the fact they tend to ignore the fact they used the same horrible plants as everyone else.

I don't take issue with people noting Jobs' notorious personality, although it takes a pretty petty turn of mind to bring it up on the occasion of his death.

I do take issue with the suggestion that it's somehow blasphemic for people who enjoyed Jobs' accomplishments to remark on that on the day of his death, or that somehow all the enormous bullshit that's happened to America because of the financial, energy, and military industries needs to be pushed on his plate at this moment.

This was not the guy or the company that decided to play craps with the mortgage market, or to extort trillions from the U.S. taxpayers to bail them out, or to forge Assignments of Mortgage to more swiftly remove Americans from their homes when the insane financial instruments recommended to them by mortgage brokers with the moral fiber of the ebola virus exploded in their faces.

It is beyond ridiculous to suggest that OWS somehow encompasses the weirdo cult of Apple haterism comprised of strange, embittered creatures who can't let an Apple-related event occur without launching a fusillade of pretentious bullshit about how Apple users, who include most of the professional publishing, advertising and design worlds, are technologically challenged slaves to the allure of pretty packaging and slick marketing.

Jobs designed great machines that work. I started buying them after my second HP laptop in five years suffered catastrophic failure because HP couldn't be bothered to make a motherboard that wouldn't fry itself or a case that wouldn't implode when you dared to open the hinge. They were shiny and cheap and absolute pieces of crap. In the same period, my fiancee had a six-year-old MacBook Pro that outperformed the newer HPs, never so much as froze up, was swiftly and inexpensively repaired when its hard drive finally gave in, and couldn't crack at the hinge because it was made of aluminum. It's sitting on a back shelf at this moment, in perfect running condition, with a new aluminum bezel and keyboard Apple installed for free at the last repair, just to be nice.

No Apple product I've bought has failed, or even failed to work. Or even not worked better than whatever non-Apple counterpart I had before. No non-Apple computing device I've ever owned has NOT failed, irreparably, and had to be thrown away.

It's good design. Functional, durable, no more complex or simple than it needs to be. That's a hard thing to come by, and I appreciate and admire Jobs and Apple's accomplishments in bringing them to bear, given that although I keep hearing everyone else in the world already knew how to make every device Apple ever created, somehow none of them ever did.

One of the biggest Apple critics on DU wrote something nice about Jobs today. Didn't seem to cause him any pain.

That's all.

[Duppers]

92. Exactly! Steve Jobs sold usable products.

He didn't lie, didn't manipulate. No one had to buy one of his products. And the price didn't change on you after purchase.


Wall Street lied, cheated, and sold trillions of taxpayers' money, money which belonged to all of us.


Jobs took broken technology and saw that it wasn't broken, simply misused; he didn't see what was there, he saw what it could be. He's the reason we have standards in personal computing. He's the reason we have smartphones. He's the reason we have standardized quality earbuds and integrated music systems. Others have chased his dream and discovered wonderful tangential trajectories on which further technology could be explored, but the true trailblazer in all personal technology was Steve Jobs.


This is a fine day to bash him.

x(

[DirkGently]

181. Jobs' strength was in making equipment that responds to human beings, & vice versa.

His devices were beautiful, yes, but also eminently useable. Saying Apple merely added a touchscreen to the Smartphone is like saying the Wright Brothers merely added a motorized propeller to a kite. Sure, all the parts existed. But they never flew before.

That entire element eludes the majority of electronics design. Most manufacturers put anonymous parts into anonmyous boxes, as cheaply as possible, and call it day. They can't be bothered to make something elegant or inuitive or rewarding to use. That's why so many people who use computers as tools to create things use Apple.

As far as the "1%er issue," Apple has some corporate sin to answer for, but it's clearly the finacial services industry and its co-conspirators in Congress that created the present disaster. Jobs didn't get rich thinking up new ways to disguise risk and reap obscene bonuses selling worthless inflated paper, with the expectation taxpayers would bail him out when it all went splat.

He and Apple employed brilliant design to make things work better. They saw the potential of digital tools and worked to the put them in people's hands so they could use them seamlessly. The publishing and printing industries were redefined overnight. And it wasn't Xerox or Microsoft or Dell that made that happen; made it really work.

That ought to count for something. At the very least, it takes Jobs and Apple a few galaxies away from the financiers and market speculators who bankrupted the planet, then demanded we save their bonuses and Carribbean cruises because they'd "earned" them. If you don't like an Apple product, you can always buy something else. We all bought the mortgage crisis, at gunpoint.

[Duppers]

209. Well said!

In fact, I'd like to see your combined posts in a thread all their own!!

We're on the same page here, Dirk.

:)

[AverageJoe90]

96. Good point.

Jobs may not have been perfect, but he did seem to be pretty decent overall and he did have a genuine vision of innovation that ended up making life easier & a little more interesting for hundreds of thousands of people.........let's give him credit for that, shall we?

[Herlong]

157. Well said, DirkGently

I wish I could recommend your post!

[Duppers]

210. Same here

He did so well that he should combine his posts in a new thread.

[DirkGently]

215. Thanks, guys. Weird seeing this rush to demonize someone who ... made good stuff.

[Desertrose]

83. Because, bottom line, he was a human being and he will be missed.

In spite of all his money...he died like we all will...but he died young. It's sad.

On the other hand, why can't we be excited about a movement for social change and at the same time feel sadness about a life cut short.

But yes, it is an interesting juxtaposition.

[RegieRocker]

107. I don't feel sorry for this man. He was everything that I am

against.

[AngkorWot]

100. A lot of people around here are... well... not very clever.

[sam11111]

110. UNION BASHER. + outsourced jobs. Horrible RW person. PS Virgin Airlines CEO also Union basher

"Sir" Richard Branson IIRC

Don't let their long hair fool you

[Safetykitten]

111. But it's cool. Real cool.

[coalition_unwilling]

113. Add to that the total silence over the death of Fred Shuttlesworth and

you get a disgusting picture of where DU's priorities currently lie.

[Jim Warren]

118. You noiced that......

Not all of DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2062634

but yeah, this place is mostly just another bullseye in consumerism.

[coalition_unwilling]

185. Thanks for pointing that thread out to me Bookmarking for later. - n/t.

[Major Hogwash]

116. It's almost the same vibe out of the same wave. Jobs created a company at 21 that was like no other.

And when everyone -- and I mean everyone -- was telling him to go take his "toy" home with him, he made Apple into one of the most succesful companies ever.
And his brilliant method of comparing his product to others, and then using his to do more things and making his product better, is the key to success in this world, my fine feathered friend.

You wouldn't be able to talk on the internet if it were not for Steve Jobs.
He was the one who believed in home computers.
He was the one that created the need for the WWW.
He was the mastermind behind all things that computers do today.
Everyone else tried to emulate him, copy him, steal his ideas.

That just doesn't happen everyday to people, Nueman.

That's a Sienfeld reference, for you being so negatory about it.
:)

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshcryer]

120. Par for the course.

OWS is actually a different kind of consumerism that we've seen before. This is not a knock on the OWS, the OWS should use it introspectively and make things different.

[inna]

128. hmm, word salad, or a delusion?... or, perhaps (and likely), both?

please explain how "OWS is actually a different kind of consumerism that we've seen before"

[joshcryer]

214. Read Society of the Spectacle.

http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/debord/

I am not convinced you understand what I said, but I support OWS completely. And I support the blind consumerism evidenced by Apple Corporation adoration, though I wish it wasn't so attached to capitalism.

[begin_within]

133. So, I have to remind you that Steve Jobs worked for a salary of $1 per year.

How many CEOs would work for a salary of $1 per year?

Would you do what he did for $1 per year?

[seabeyond]

135. my husband and his partner did. my dad has done it. it is not uncommon

i dont imagine since i now know 4 that have done it.

not to diss the guy in his death. as people have pointed out, can be sad for the fact a fellow human being died. but i, too, see the contradiction in the hero worship for jobs, occupying going on and how we treat all others that are not even half that rich

[matmar]

139. No contradiction.

Steve Jobs was not a "capitalist"

He wasn't a financial snake oil salesman.

[seabeyond]

141. mmmmm, yes he was. lol. wow. the illusions people chose to live. i dont get that

had conversation recently with self how we tell ourselves stories for whatever reason.

i dont know how or even why people do that.

people on du are pissed if people make a mere 100k a year, tag them as rich adn greedy

[matmar]

154. Steve Jobs was a financial snake oil salesman?

He made money solely with money? He was a bankster?

You have a different ides of what a "capitalist" is than I do.

Steve Jobs was an entrepreneur not a capitalist.

[seabeyond]

159. so, you are saying those that have sent jobs out of country, horde money and not put into system

are not a problem with our economy today?

[matmar]

170. No. They are most definately a problem.

But as Thom Hartmann says, corporations are following the laws. You want jobs, change the trade policy. I applaud those protesting at Wall Street. There needs to be an "occupation" of DC too.

[seabeyond]

173. that was only my point since last night. we glorify this man as we cheer occupy

seems like a disconnect to me. that was all

[MedicalAdmin]

200. Well, there is another way to look at this.

The test of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.
-- F. Scott Fitzgerald, "The Crack-Up", Esquire Magazine (February 1936).

[seabeyond]

201. good enough. works for me. as long as we acknowledge the contradictions....

which again, is all i have pointed out from post one.

[MedicalAdmin]

212. I think sometimes recognition is enough.

Someone died. The acknowledgment could have waited a few days.

Imagine if this had been someone in hour family and a newspaper or friend or other entity had reiterated everything they disliked about them less than 12 hours post mortum. Imagine it was the husband or father of someone you loved.

The acknowledgement could have waited. I think many or perhaps most here recognized and acknowledged his flaws. The timing however lacked a sense of decency.

What is your opinion?

[seabeyond]

217. but it isnt. not a single family member or friend to be had on du. not one person that personally

knows the man.

would i walk up to a family member or friend and talk about the contradictions of glorifying the man on du as we are all cheering on occupy? or that people on du will attack a person making 100k as rich and greedy, yet act like this man is a saint?

of course not. it would not be relevant. it is here, on du.

this is a discussion board. politically leaning. discussing the wealthy corps that are screwing people.

not a single person is personally involved or invested in the man. there is no reason not to honor ALL of who the man is in his death. the good and bad and ugly. creating a man that isnt, in his death, is as wrong.

people dont want to do it though, because if they do it with this man, then when a reagan or a cheney, anyone else dies, then they have to honor ALL of that person also.

i dont care. i can do that, too. i am not protecting anything. i understand a person is not all evil, or that a person is loved by others, if not by me, so regardless, i can emathize with ALL death. but i also see death a bet different and dont react the same as most.

i dont think truth is hurtful. it just is.

but i can not be a hypocrite, even for a man that has died. his choices were not mine. he made them. he lives with and dies with them.

on edit: btw, i listened to a number of people talk about him yesterday on NPR. they were able to talk about all of who the man was, respectfully, without lying or creating something that isnt, as they honored him. it can be done. it should be expected.

[MedicalAdmin]

219. Well, at least you are making an a attempt at consistency.

And while the truth may be neutral, when and where to disclose it is not.

Beyond the fact that there may be people reading this blog who may have had a personal connection to the deceased, there are still those who states that they were feeling a loss. It doesn't matter why they were feeling it or if anyone else felt that it was legitimate.

Full disclosure of the truth at all times isn't neutral in all situations ( do you tell the full truth to your children, your parents, random folks in the grocery store, that slightly unstable neighbor?).

And the fact is that there were several who weren't giving a nuanced complete picture of the man, they were engaged in what seemed to me to be tearing down the man while the body was still cooling. I've seen it before in my own life and it's ugly. My mom once had me go with her to the funeral of a despicable and hurtful man and I, being young and full of righteousness, started to speak out at the hypocrisy I saw. She stopped me and made me notice those who were mourning. It was not about respecting the dead but rather the living.

Perhaps I'm just old enough to stupidly think that things like respect and honor matter, that how I act toward others is a reflection of who I am. And that knowledge shames me some days.

It has been a good chat. Thank you.

[seabeyond]

220. "respect and honor matter"

see, to me, this matters also and was a huge part of all of my post. we see it differently.

were there harsh critics on du? you betcha. were there people that glorified him to a caricature? you betcha. then there are the people that recognize the good and bad and still acknowledge the value of the man. to me, that is the best....

you ask if i an truthful at all times. the answer, .... yes. i was always pretty good, but since growing up, ya. i am. even with kids (and can be done age appropriate). once letting go of ego, and speaking from the heart, it is very easy to do. i have found the older and older i get, the more i cannot be any other way. i have found that even in truth, when speaking from love, people recognize and know not mean spirited. has been relatively easy for me and i won't live any other way.

and all the people that know me, live with me, love me, .... appreciate and fully trust me because of it.

again, doesn't make me perfect. i readily and easily admit to being wrong, too. again, that makes life much easier.

i also don't take responsibility for other peoples choices. and if they surround themselves in illusion, that is their choice. but it is also mine to not live that way. they can accept or not accept truth. but i am gonna put it out there.

it is a whole energy, karmic thing, spirituality, that i believe sending out truth heals. sending out lie creates chaos. i won't do it.

we are capable. i just have more faith in people than those that chose to protect. and who is a person to make another less, in that manner?

[MedicalAdmin]

223. "i just have more faith in people than those that chose to protect."

Good point, but to me this is a grey area. There are times to stand up when others are not able to do it themselves.

I have been described as many things, but I hope a "good german" will never be one of them.



As I said, it's been a good discussion. I'm glad we took the time to find commonality. Goals can converge even if the roads taken to them diverge.

[seabeyond]

225. Goals can converge even if the roads taken to them diverge

couldnt agree more, and that is often the way it is.

:fistbump:

[MedicalAdmin]

226. Next round is on me.

:toast:

[hugo_from_TN]

168. Yes, to keep his taxes low.

Pay yourself a $1 salary and reap $Billions on stock options for which you only have to pay the 15% capital gains tax. Hedge fund managers do the same thing dude. Had he paid himself in salary instead of stock options the same amount, the US government would now have millions or billions more with which to create some jobs.

[GOTV]

227. Because he could take his money as stock which is taxed less than income ...

... it's just a tax avoidance scheme

[mdmc]

134. everyone wants to be rich, no one wants to be poor

[seabeyond]

136. i have thought about this recently. my dad has owned businesses.

my husband owned a business. it is work. lots and lots of work. and stress. not easy stuff. to become that rich, there would have to be a lot of luck but a lot of life spent in stress. i have had no desire to give up so much of my life for money. so rich, ... meh. i want to be able to live with the money i make. that is about all i need.

[mdmc]

144. apple product help the poor feel rich

imho..

Having something the 1% have is nice..

[seabeyond]

147. thankfully, happily, things dont do it for me.

rich doesnt matter to me.

i dont have to be a part of the game.

[mdmc]

203. it has taken some time for your logic to sink in for me my friend

prior to working in human services I worked in retail management. Retail was all about keeping up with the Jones.

Now I live with less. Much less. Now I need to chip away at the old consumer lifestyle and replace it with a quality lifestyle.

peace..

[JVS]

138. It's like watching a bunch of 1930s New Deal supporters mourning Rockefeller.

[JI7]

194. or FDR

[JVS]

211. No. Steve Jobs is not FDR. Not even close. Not by a long shot. Not even in the same league.

[Vinca]

143. I was listening to MSNBC a little while ago and they were talking about Steve Jobs.

Someone compared him to Thomas Edison and it struck me how right that was. Jobs might have been the most successful capitalist of all time, but he was also a whole lot more. In any case, damn that pancreatic cancer. It always seems to win and Jobs was too young to die.

[CTyankee]

152. It must have been the ultimate frustration to him that his cancer was the ONE thing

that he couldn't control, since apparently he was a maniacal micromanager and a tyrant to work for. If there is one, just punishment for such a controlling person, it has to be the ultimate humiliation of certain death at a relatively young age. I couldn't imagine any fate more horrible for a guy like him. I actually feel sorry for him and hope he finally found the humility and acceptance he needed...

[jefferson_dem]

145. Silly thread.

Cheer up everybody! Everything's going to be all right. :hi:

[occupy_wall_street]

146. Occupy Wall Street is aimed at Wall Street, at what is called Financial Capitalism.

A company such as Apple or General Motors or the old Ben & Jerrys has a responsibility to act in a responsible manner. Profit is not bad, but adding social justice makes these organizations much better.

The companies of Financial Capitalism are different. The crimes of their employees are what produced the Great Recession of 2008 and massive unemployment. They also took trillions of dollars from retirement funds and from other small investors.

No one ever thought of prosecuting Steve Job for anything. He was not a criminal. He was a good man.

Steve Jobs would not have been a success on today's Wall Street. "We Are The 1%" was not his motto.

"Think different" about sums it up.

-- DU members are all invited to come to the Occupy Wall Street site on Saturday, October 8th at 11 AM

-- Please assemble peacefully at the Red Cube at 140 Broadway, at the corner of Broadway and Liberty Street

-- A speaker from OWS will greet everyone from DU. A statement of purpose and an invitation to support OWS will be presented.

That site can accommodate 250 DU members and their friends easily. As many as 1,000 extra people connected to DU can be accommodated directly with OWS plans for Saturday afternoon.



Freely exercise your freedom of speech and of the press; and the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please, feel free to do all of this with Occupy Wall Street.

[seabeyond]

148. jobs is part of the issue. living wage huge part of the issue. that is corporations

and jobs sent his jobs out of country along with the other corps. that is the hypocrisy that is very much connected to occupy

[HappyMe]

149. Agreed. nt

[WilliamPitt]

158. Rilly?

It's "against capitalism"?

Musta missed a memo here.

[mmonk]

161. The American hero syndrome.

It doesn't contain much logic.

[workinclasszero]

166. I don't get it either

The disconnect is rather huge.

Mr Jobs died with 7 billion dollars in his bank account that he made off the ruined lives of slave laborers in China.

Many of them killed themselves over the horrid working conditions they had to endure.

And Steve had 7 BILLION bank......

Yeah I don't get the adulation and the sudden deification of capitalist slaver Saint Steve Jobs either.

[ohheckyeah]

167. 15 threads

about Steve Jobs that I've hidden. And there's more. You would think he was a god or something.

[leveymg]

174. Enough about Jobs and Apple/PC pseudowars. This OWS thread was f-cking hijacked

G-d - it's like "tastes great/less filling" commercial messages took over, leaving no political space left for the rest of us.

One might almost suspect this was on purpose. If so, the worst offenders should be banned.

[yurbud]

179. Jobs was different from Wall Street in one big sense:

He created actual products, and the nature of the product mattered more to him than profits.

This was captured perfectly in THE PIRATES OF SILICON VALLEY that contrasted his design vision with Bill Gates business acumen. The film ends with a giant Bill Gates on a screen behind Jobs looking down on him like a god looking at an ant he could crush with a thought. Jobs got the last laugh in the last couple of years when apple passed microsoft in profits.

Those who work on Wall Street would gladly deliver a shitty product to goose their short term profit margins, or better yet, no product at all when they short or cannibalize businesses that profitable but not enough for the Wall Street scammers.

[yodermon]

180. I'm way late to this thread, but think of it this way:

If our wettest of wet-dream financial, fiscal, political, and economic policies had been in effect for the past 30 years, and the top marginal tax rate was at 91%, and CEO pay was within non-WTF limits, and Glass-Steagall was still in effect, and our political system wasn't bought and paid-for, etc etc etc.....

....then Steve Jobs *still* would have invented all this cool shit and would still be honored for it, and would *still* deserve the recognition. He may only have been worth 3.5 billion instead of 7 billion, but wtf difference does that make.

He isn't being praised for "being a capitalist". He's being praised for being an innovator, inventor, visionary, and game-changer.
That is all.

[Donnachaidh]

202. Thank you!

The hypocrisy is frigging ASTOUNDING!

The sitting of i-shiva for a guy who made money while the people putting together his high priced toys were committing suicide is frightening, especially in this forum where most *claim* to be progressives, or liberals, or any group that is supposed to be standing up for the working class.

But I guess chinese workers aren't considered in the same light.

[Prosperitas]

205. Owning Apple products

What percentage of those at the Occupy protests own an Apple product? I say the percentage is large.

[NYC_SKP]

207. Yes, because it's been said that the OWS group is fairly well educated...

...and it's been said that more well educated folks are more likely to own apple products, there's reason to believe that you're correct.

[Spider Jerusalem]

213. The correlation isn't with education, it's with income

more-educated people make more money and are therefore more likely to buy a $5000 desktop PC. Saying "well educated people are more likely to own Apple products" implies that "stupid people own Windows PCs"; that's kind of like saying "well-educated people are more likely to own BMW's/Rolexes/insert luxury item here"; there's no real correlation between education and/or intelligence and ownership.

[white_wolf]

208. Jobs was anti-consumer, anti-worker, anti-teacher.

Those negatives far outweigh his positives. I'm not glad he's dead and I'm sorry for his family, but I don't understand this cult-like following he has.

[Warren DeMontague]

216. "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."

Walt Whitman.