The scorn heaped upon Steve Jobs makes me want to puke.

[Joe Fields]

No man or woman is perfect. Steve Jobs was a visionary, who took an idea from his garage and turned his idea, and subsequent ideas into useable fixtures in our daily lives. Some of the criticism of Mr. Jobs that I have seen here this morning tells me more about those critics, than of the man who changed the world, in the way we communicate, the way we work, the way we relax, the way we create...

Granted, there are pros and cons regarding technology. Granted, there are more humane ways of doing business. But Steve Jobs was a visionary who has made our lives, better, easier, more fun...

The man is dead, and he died much too early. He hasn't even been laid to rest and some here are already pissing on his grave. Shame on you. What have you done to change the world for the better?

[Avalux]

1. I agree Steve Jobs was a visionary and it is very sad he passed so young. However -

He was not Jesus or Ghandi; he did not use his vast innovative ability and wealth to better society, other than selling us gadgets.

Those who elevate him and those who denegrate him are both missing the mark.

[Joe Fields]

5. How did he not better society with his inventions?

[Avalux]

6. All of society? Only a segment can afford an iPhone or a MAC.

It all comes down to money....if you can afford his inventions, great. He didn't do anything altruistic to better society.

[blueamy66]

9. Exactly.

I cannot afford an iphone.

I am sorry that he has passed....I feel for his family.

If he gave those iphones away for free....he'd be a visionary....

[frazzled]

29. The hypocrisy stuns me

You sit there and type this on a computer that undoubtedly was influenced by the elegance of the early Apple operating systems. With parts that come from cheap labor somewhere far across the world. Even if you built the machine yourself. Without Steve Jobs you'd be typing Fortran commands on some ugly hunk of a box just to eke out a single sentence. You appear to be blinded by hatred and envy and smallness when you make statements like this. Progressives are supposed to embrace progress, not cretinism. There is nothing I can say to disabuse you of such ugly sentiments. If all you see in people like Steve Jobs is money, money, money then you are obsessed by money and have no understanding of aesthetics or human intelligence. I do not hate the sentiments expressed: I feel very sorry for them. I feel sorry for your bitterness and hope that you can find some peace and purpose in life before your own death.

[Avalux]

39. Whoa! Someone's just a bit touchy.....

Look - I admire Jobs and recognize his worth. I just don't like the over-the-top adoration as if he was some sort of diety.

Interpreting hatred, envy, smallness and bitterness out of my posts is reflective of your thoughts, not mine.

[Yavin4]

40. I Made A Post That The Internet Would Not Be Possible Without Jobs

And I was attacked. Apple pioneered user friendly GUIs, and that laid the ground work for further innovation in personal computing and telecom like the internet and the smart phone.

I stand by my statement.

[LondonReign2]

45. Blah

YOU were not attacked. It was pointed out, correctly, that the Internet came along well before Steve Jobs. You continue to state that he "laid the ground work" for the Internet, but that simply is not possoble since the Internet was already around.

That said, why anyone would attack Jobs is beyond me.

[Confusious]

133. It's the fanboys making him into a god I hate

Since they are fanboys, if you say he didn't do something or invent something related to computers, your attacking jobs.

[vminfla]

105. Then the internet would not be possible with Humphry Davy as well

After all, Humphry Davy pioneered the light bulb, and that laid the ground work for overnight programming, and the internet, and the smart phone.

[MattBaggins]

110. You can stand by it all day long and it still won't be true

Jobs may have made a few shiny glitzy over priced toys, but the internet came about without his input.

[Mr Deltoid]

111. The early internet began in the 60s

When Jobs was a little kid.

What 'groundwork' did this little kid contribute?

[Confusious]

132. Total and complete bullshit

Arpanet ran without apple. Universities ran without apple. I've gotten on the Internet without apple for the past 25 years.

another annoying fanboy trying to make jobs into a god.

[Whisp]

120. if we had to throw out everything corporate in our lives...

we'd all be naked on our front lawns.

or living in the mountains with a shotgun. oops, WITHOUT a shotgun.

[Confusious]

131. Another annoying fanboy.

There would have been a GUI without jobs. He took the idea from xerox.

There would have been a computer revolution without jobs. Seeing as apple makes up less then 10 percent of the computers in the world, it happen despite him.

[joshcryer]

137. Absolutely asinine, there were over a dozen GUI systems on the market soon after Lisa came out.

Those GUIs were in development before Lisa / Macintosh came out.

Everyone knew where the technology was going, hell, even tablets were seen as something that was coming (with several attempts over the years to make them happen).

All Apple did is build a consumer brand beyond belief.

[chillspike]

141. +1

[whistler162]

142. No without PARC we might be " typing Fortran commands on some ugly hunk "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_(company)

and even then the box wouldn't be a ugly hunk. Jobs/Wozniak innovated and amplified the primary work of others less well known. You don't thank Henry Ford inventing the auto do you? As for the rest DECAF it is supposed to help!

I am a MS tech and don't really have any real use for MAC's but the only thing I have against Jobs is that he sold PIXAR to Disney, I still mader money but I would have preferred not to have had to sell my shares when I did.

[RaleighNCDUer]

55. Not true. Everybody has Windows, and Gates could never have stolen

it if Jobs hadn't first created it for his OS.

[EOTE]

72. A case could be made that Gates stole Windows from Xerox...

but certainly not from Jobs or apple. Xerox had a Windowed OS in the early 70s.

[Xithras]

106. It wasn't the technology, but the market focus.

The tools were all there, but from the 60's to the 80's the focus was almost exclusively on business applications. There wasn't a single major computer hardware or software manufacturer that had a division focused on consumer computing. Even Microsoft, in its early days, was focused on ways to usurp IBM's hold on the business computing market. While there WERE small computer manufacturers that built equipment for home users, they were intently focused on the hobbyist market, and utilizing them required extensive training or technical skills. Even Apple fell under this heading in its early years, going from the Apple I (which required a soldering iron and fabrication skills to use), to the Apple II (which merely required extensive classroom time or reading in order to learn it's extensive CLI interface).

The major computing companies of that era shared a common opinion of the home and consumer markets...it didn't exist, and most doubted that it ever would. Why would a person spend thousands of dollars to put a computer in their home? What would they do with it? Software was all business oriented, and anyone doing business work at home would just use a business PC. Children? Grandmas? Secretaries? What do any of them need with a computer?

In 1979, when Jobs and Raskin had the idea to build a low-cost computer with a GUI interface that required virtually no training, marketed directly at the home and educational markets, it was a radical idea. A computer that ANYONE could use. As for software, they took a "If we build it, they will come" approach. Apple included and created enough software to make the initial purchase worthwhile, but made it easy for other companies to come in behind them and write their own consumer software for it. And they did. Everything from the first GUI-only computer games to computerized checkbook balancing showed up within a year of the Mac's introduction. While the PIECES may have existed for years, Apple was the first to see the true potential in building an "everyman" computer.

Apple generated so much interest in the GUI driven computer that ANYONE could use, that they spurred Microsoft to hammer together their Windows experiment and release it a year later. Again though, they were focused on business. Microsoft, even at that point, had little use for the consumer market. Microsoft and Apple gradually entered into a feature war that ran until Microsoft released Windows 3 in 1990. Suddenly, even though their focus had always been on the business market, Microsoft discovered that it had a growing legion of home users (primarily people looking for a cheaper alternative to the Apple), and that consumer software was appearing for their platform. Apple had created the market for the "easy to use" home computer, and had grown it to the point where it could be profitable, and Microsoft suddenly realized that it was something to be exploited. In 1992, they started development on Windows 95, the forerunner to all modern versions of Windows, specifically so that they could target and expand the consumer market that Apple had developed.

In April 1993, Tim Berners-Lee released the World Wide Web for anyone to use, free of charge. Later that year, Mosaic was released, which became the first and most popular mouse driven web browser. While initial growth was slow, by 1995 the Web was starting to explode, and it was being billed as everything from the ultimate encyclopedia, to the telephone of the future. For the average person, this was the first time they'd ever really had reason to buy a computer. They discovered that their local computer stores had them cheap, and that using them was pretty easy with Windows 95.

It's a simple fact of history. If Apple hadn't cultivated the consumer market, Microsoft would never have built a consumer-oriented OS. If Apple and Microsoft hadn't done that, computer interfaces would have been far less refined in 1993 when the WWW developed. The technology would still have existed, but it would have been far less accessible, and therefore far less popular. It would have been a tool for computer geeks, much the same way BBS's and proprietary content networks had been beforehand. Without mainstream popularity, the Web as we know it today would have never developed, and subsidiary technologies like smartphones would have had little purpose.

Much, if not most, of our current technology-oriented consumer culture owes its existence to the fact that Jobs and Raskin sat down in 1979 and started developing the "radical" idea that any average schmo should be able to use a computer. I don't give him credit for everything that followed, but it's inarguable that he opened the valve that let everything else flow.

I never much liked Steve Jobs as a person, and many of his business views are offensive to me, but the guy did change history.

[shireen]

124. +1 nt

[joshcryer]

136. Um, I'm sorry, but that's total revisionism. TRS-80 and Commodore were also killing that market.

Apple was a small niche in that market, and while they were the first to have a GUI on a personal computer (not to be confused with a computer in general as GUIs predated Lisa by years), Commodore followed very soon thereafter (with a mere software update; GEOS).

Computing industry boomed because of PC clones. Apple was historically highly proprietary, and against cloning or anyone innovating based on their designs, this goes way way back. Lawsuit after lawsuit over many years. Guess who won that? Why are computer ubiquitous? Because PCs were allowed to grow without bullshit. Because clones could pop up anywhere with only meager licensing fees. And the open source community cannot be allowed to be shit on here, because OSX and much of the internet infrastructure is based on code that is open or free.

What's fucking rich beyond belief is that Microsoft got sued for being anti-competitive because they wouldn't allow BeOS to ship on OEM machines. Apple won't even let you live boot USB without jumping through significant hoops and even hacks, and yet it's OK.

[Xithras]

145. No, it's not.

I owned a TRS-80, and had plenty of friends who swore by their Commodores.

The TRS-80 was targeted at the small business market, and not the home market. Tandy didn't try to get into the home market until they launched the CoCo in 1980. The CoCo ran OS9 or DECB (I had a DECB CoCo at one point, and Model 2's and 3's at another), both of which were command line and were NOT user friendly. As for the TRS-80 Model X's, they also used DECB-based operating systems (unless you got a level 3, which had a full implementation of BASIC running a simplified version of DOS written by Microsoft). None of these computers were easy to use, and all required days or weeks of familiarization and practice to become proficient in their use. Like most smaller computer companies at that time, Radio Shack didn't market to the "common user", but instead marketed and designed their products to be used by small businesses. While they did do some marketing toward the home market, it was seen as a product for hobbyist technical geeks who could spend some time learning and becoming proficient with the system. It was not marketed at the common person.

As for GEOS, while it was a GUI operating system, you have your timeline wrong. Apple completed the MacOS in 1983 and was marketing it in 1984. Microsoft released the first Windows in 1985. GeoWorks didn't publish GEOS until 1986, and as I recall it was another year or so after that before Commodore began bundling it with the C64. Even then, GEOS was a seperate operating system, and most of the applications written for the C64 wouldn't run on it. To run the bulk of Commodore programs available, you had to reboot back into the Commodore OS and load them at the command line. To be entirely fair though, Microsoft Windows 1 and 2 had this same problem.

And, for what it's worth, Win95 was an offshoot of the MS/IBM OS/2 alliance. Back in the day, I recall many quite public statements by the OS/2 developers claiming that one of their goals with the project was to "bring the Macintosh ease of use experience to the PC" by completely eliminating the need to use the command line for normal system tasks.

Like I said, Apple was the first to make a GUI based computer that was targeted at the common user, and for quite a long time they were the only company doing so. Aside from hobbyists, the industry outside of Apple didn't see the common consumer as a viable market for computers.

As for the rest, well, you seem to be confusing sales with impact. Even today, Apple only has about 10% of the overall marketshare in home computer sales, and yet their products are driving much of the technology market. Android outsells the iPhone, and yet it's been Apple leading the charge to build smaller and sleeker handsets. Their impact is, and always has been, disproportionate to their actual sales figures.

Believe it or not, I'm no Apple fanboy. Until I picked up a Mini for platform testing my applications a few years ago, I'd never owned a Mac in my life. That one Mac is still only used for testing. My primary computers run Win7 Pro x64 and CentOS. I do own an iPod, but my phone is an Android. No Mac-worship here. My position is simply that Apple, while not always having great sales or being the first to market, has always played a huge role in driving a consumer-focused approach to technology development that put computing into the hands of average, everyday people. To deny THAT is historical revisionism.

[Confusious]

134. Xerox made it before jobs

and they took the idea from a paper published in 1945.

it would have come around one way or the other.

[joshcryer]

139. Let's not forget that Mac OS used cooperative multitasking for almost two decades.

Cooperative multitasking was one of the big issues with Mac OS in the late 90s because Windows 95 and Linux and other operating systems like BeOS were completely owning the user experience as far as performance is concerned. Just one bad apple and the entire Mac OS would crash. Nothing could be done because the architecture was just too inadequate. They finally moved to preemptive multitasking with OS X. Thirty years after it was introduced to computing.

Talk about a failure to innovate. If we did things the Apple way (the "oh, the consumer experience is everything, screw good technology, let's make it look pretty but who cares about behaving well"), we'd be so fucked right now.

[Confusious]

140. And 10 percent of the public owning computers

and nowhere near as advanced.

[krawhitham]

63. please name HIS inventions

[ZombieHorde]

65. He made society more convient for some, while making society unbarable for others.

People were literally killing themselves because him.

[Avalux]

92. Good post. n/t

[MattBaggins]

109. Weren't his inventions

He copied other peoples ideas. Every last one of them.

[Confusious]

135. He did invent

the "I'm cooler then thou" marketing.

[Confusious]

130. It's not jobs, it's his fanboy club

Perfect example, he didn't INVENT anything. The fanboys would have you believe he created the entire computer industry, and everyone either wants or runs a Mac.

Zero truth.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Jesus was quite likely a fictional character who had no objective historical existence.

Ghandi wasn't exactly perfect, either. Like Mother Theresa, he was virulently anti-birth control.

You could make an argument that Ghandi improved the political existence of Indians and set a commendable example for non-violent resistance movements, but let's be real.

Technology HAS improved peoples' lives. If you don't agree, log off now and start composing a reasoned response to this post by smoke signal.

[Avalux]

84. You don't get it....

and your post makes it sound as if Jobs gave us computers and the internet. He did not.

[Warren DeMontague]

103. What don't I get?

Ghandi was against birth control, and Jesus was just pretend. Steve Jobs was a very successful man who, for better or worse, revolutionized product design and gave the world some cool stuff.

Now, I realize it may not be "progressive" to "like" "cool stuff", but I don't really "give" a "shit" whether or not I meet some itinerant goober's definition of what constitutes "progressive" or not.

I'm sure as shit not going to exercise myself too much lionizing someone who opposed legal contraception, though.

[Champion Jack]

2. K & R

[seabeyond]

3. i think it is the contradiction that people are pointing out. doesnt mean scorn... or hate

it means, we choose who our heros are and vilify others when really, there is not a lot of difference.

[mmonk]

12. +1

[pipi_k]

32. Exactly. The double standards. The hypocrisy...

I have nothing against Steve Jobs, personally. In fact, I'm glad he was such a visionary.

But unless his companies embodied all the ideals people are protesting for, then he is just another cog in the Corporate machinery.


People want to give a free pass to some and string others up by the thumbs.


Which is even more disgusting when I consider all the invective hurled against people who have doubts, or ask questions, or find some kind of problem with the protests.

In those situations, it's most surely black or white. You're either "FOR us", or you're "AGAINST us". People sure do define who the "enemy" is there, don't they...

As far as the other "enemy"...well...it all depends on how cool the person or his inventions were.

[Pithlet]

144. Heaven forbid, any shade of gray... Hypocrisy! n/t

[MedicalAdmin]

47. I read a post today that compared him to Cheney.

WTF?

That is pissing on a grave.

[seabeyond]

52. ok. and the majority of people are talking about how he was no better than so many of the corps we

attack on du.

or how a person making 100k are evil and greedy

yet glorify jobs to sainthood. what is that? where is reality? why pretend it is hate and scorn, when people are putting out facts that contradict where we stand on du.

i can respect the man as a human being that is no longer.

but i am not gonna pretend he is something he isnt, in illusion. there is a dishonesty to that and i dont play the game. it is an illusion and i dont like sitting in illusion. and the worst... it is being an hypocrite and i refuse... refuse... to be an hypocrite.

just be honest about the man

that is all

and dont dismiss what people say, that is a truth, as hate or scorn.

[MedicalAdmin]

76. I have not elevated him to sainthood...

and I haven't read any post yet that does. If there are any that you see I would appreciate a link.

I also haven't dismissed anything anyone has said about him. And while I am no fan of Godwins' law, to compare him to hitler or even to Cheney is just, well, hypocritical or perhaps just hyperbolic, don't you think?

[seabeyond]

58. btw... real classy starting a thread about your mama said....

i won't go into that thread, but very offensive. you easily ignore what people are saying that is a very real criticism of what our world is today by a

my mama says....

not raised well.

how about a

stay classy, to you

[MedicalAdmin]

73. Sigh.

My momma did used to say that and she said right after a funeral of a man who our family and lots of other folks had good reason to dislike and I mentioned something about the guys life and she stopped me dead in my tracks. I learned my lesson. Let people have their space to mourn.

But if it makes you feel better - judge away.

[valerief]

4. He took the idea from Xerox. They developed it. He marketed it. nt

[n2doc]

7. Xerox did squat with their idea

Ideas mean very little in the long run. It is what you do with them that counts. The quote I liked best about Jobs "He was the kid who cheated off of your test and got a better grade"

Do you hate Gates because he bought DOS from another software developer and marketed it as his own? How about Dell/HP/clones because they, after all, just copied IBM's design?

[valerief]

13. Gates stole the gui concept from Jobs. I don't hate either of them.

I just wanted to see more OWS last night instead of the Jobsfest on teevee. We know he was sick. We know he would die. We all do.

[n2doc]

24. If he hadn't died the MSM would just have spent their time on Palin

They want no part of the protests.

I for one was shocked. I knew he was sick but his family did a good job of keeping just how sick he was out of the news.

[Occupied1]

10. yep. not only a user of slave labor, also not an innovator.

actually just a front man like zucker-man is today

it;s a giant con & so funny to see people worshipping magnates

[valerief]

16. Worshipping Jobs is more important than worshipping democracy apparently from some posts I've seen.

[Occupied1]

22. they're so reverent about slave labor magnates, it's weird

[MedicalAdmin]

49. Worshiping?

Where have you seen that? Care to provide a link?

[valerief]

74. #10

[MedicalAdmin]

77. Have you read #10?

Where in that post is worship?

Help a native english speaker out here, willya buddy?

[City Lights]

79. Too funny!

Hey, the word is there, probably found with Command+F. That's all that matters!

[valerief]

81. That's right. That's the reference. nt

[MedicalAdmin]

100. ummmm? What?

Seriously. WTF are you talking about?

[SidDithers]

19. Complaining about slave labour while posting on the internet is funny...nt

Sid

[we can do it]

36. Are you still here?

[LAGC]

8. He was a capitalist tool who stole from everyone he knew...

From Wozniak to all those sweat-shop workers in China, all to pad his own generous profit margins.

The worst thing is he wasn't even much of a philanthropist. Didn't give any money to charity at all.

[Occupied1]

26. he even stole nickle and dime stuff from wozniak. which tells me he was a

major league thief, when you'll lie to nickle and dime your own partner

[coalition_unwilling]

129. And his estate is worth an estimated $6.5 billion. Excuse me for

saying the unthinkable, but no one person should be able to amass wealth of $6.5 billion. A good portion of that $6.5 billion was extracted indirectly from the labor of slaves in China.

[workinclasszero]

11. This makes me want to puke

Inside Foxconn's suicide factory: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/7773011/A-look-inside-the-Foxconn-suicide-factory.html

So Steve Jobs invented some cool toys. To bad he used slave labor in China to build them when he could have employed thousands of his fellow americans instead.

Of course he couldn't have worked them to death for pennies like he did in China.

You will excuse me for not shedding to many tears over Mr Jobs. How about having the same level of compassion over the deaths of his slave workers?

RISE UP 99%!!!!!

[MedicalAdmin]

50. If I may ask...

which american made, non slave labor, humanitarian computer are you using to type your post?

Or are you claiming that all other computers are without their flaws?

[whathehell]

53. Right..I'm not glad the guy's dead, but he outsourced to China, where I understand the workers

are pressured and overworked to the point that they are committing suicide.

Sorry...This isn't a man I could deify.:shrug:

[SidDithers]

14. People don't like Jobs because he made money...

Edit: it's got the Marxists in a lather :rofl:

Sid

[Avalux]

27. You've got it wrong.

It's not that I don't like him; I recognize his brilliance as an inventor. What I can't do is fawn all over him and worship him as many do.

[ZombieHorde]

66. No, it is because of the extremely anti-human working conditions.

Do the suicides mean nothing to you?

[SidDithers]

70. If you're posting on the internet, you've bought into those suicides...

'cause almost every computer in use today has components made either by Foxconn or in factories similar to Foxconn.

Physician, heal thyself.

Sid

[ZombieHorde]

71. Poor logic. Let's assume I am directly responsable for some of those suicides.

This would not change the argument against Jobs in the slightest.

Physician, heal thyself.

In this case, it begins by speaking out.

[Rex]

121. +1

[Mr Deltoid]

113. Sounds like something a republican would say

[Rex]

119. Well it is Sid...and he posts just like a republican

on most issues.

[Iris]

138. Good to know.

I'm not around much anymore so don't always get the nuances.

News flash for SID: I come to DU b/c it's not like the "real world" (or, rather, the "rest of" the world.)

[Rex]

117. Garbage.

But par for the course with your great fear of Commies. :eyes:

That is old bullshit played out a decade ago...but probably new material to you.

[pintobean]

15. Then puke.

[Skidmore]

17. I don't have anything to say one way or another regarding the man but

I do get tired of the overwrought hothouse atmosphere on DU sometimes. One thread is not enough with simple expressions of condolences, but full throated declarations of canonization follow. This is not the first time this has happened here. After the first 15 threads, I start hiding them.

Now, we have people in 50 cities to assist and support. It is not the time for a techie war.

[hlthe2b]

23. and likewise, up spring dozens of hate-filled threads ripping Jobs to shreds...

Deification followed by the polar opposite-- with threads that, for all the world make us look like Fred Phelp's minions.

Disgusting.... truly.

[MedicalAdmin]

60. I would rather be associated with those who act with class ...

... when something like this happens rather than those who feel the need to take a dump on the 50 yard line, during half time, just to make a point.

[frazzled]

18. Jobs famously said death is "life's change agent"

"No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life's change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma — which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary."

Sadly, as I look at all the scorn heaped upon this unique and visionary man on the occasion of his too-early death, it seems to me that the change his demise ushers in--the clearing out of the old to make way for the new--is not a change for the better. Too many are capitalizing on the inchoate OWS movement to rail against Jobs and the products of his imagination as a symbol of all that is wrong with capitalism and wealth. Nothing could be more wrong or reductive. Others dredge up the stupid tech wars that date back to the 1980s, or complain about how Macs are overpriced. They are stuck in their own petty heads.

There is no need here to defend Jobs's life or vision here. That is being done in perceptive articles and testimonies all over. There is no need to talk about how a funny little Mac Classic from 1991 changed my own life and the path it would take. What this OP is about is the ugliness of people who can't even take a day to refrain from spitting on a person's grave. Who have hatred in their hearts and choose to see the world only in one way through their dogmatic lenses. It does make you want to puke.

This is supposed to be a "progressive" web site. But if progressivism consists of this kind of inhumanity and nastiness, it really needs to rethink itself.

[Lucian]

20. Some people thought Hitler was a visionary too.

Seriously.

How did Jobs make the world better? His products contained so much poisons, so much waste. How many of those products are sitting in landfills right now, leaking poison from old batteries? Look at all the waste that went into his products. Was there that big of a difference between iPhone 3G vs iPhone 3GS? No, yet hype was built up that everyone had to have one. Is there that big of difference between iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S? Absolutely not, but then the hype is there to make you believe you need one. I'm pretty sure the Chinese who work in Apple's sweatshops appreciate you all buying Apple products.

Jobs was about the bottom line, and that was to make money. And look how many people fell for it (except for me).

[Major Hogwash]

25. Yes, but he was German, so that was different. He didn't build Silicon Valley.

At least not according to the history I have read.

[City Lights]

30. Oooo, be careful not to hurt yourself patting yourself on the back.

:eyes:

[Lucian]

38. So that's all you've got, eh?

Sad, really.

Usually people reply with snark when they have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation.

[Morrisons Ghost]

35. Don't

you think comparing Steve Jobs to Adolf Hitler is a little over the top? I notice this comparison to Adolf Hitler being made by both liberals and conservatives to people they disagree with. It's really ridiculous and the height of hyperbole. It also minimizes the horrendous crimes of Hitler and The SS when making said half ass comparisons and is a short cut to thinking.

[Lucian]

37. I wasn't comparing Jobs to Hitler.

I just pointed out that people thought Hitler was a visionary, just like people thought Jobs was a visionary. Never said they were similar.

[Morrisons Ghost]

44. Ok...

So you were comparing people who respected Jobs with the lunatics who supported Adolf Hitler? Last time I checked Steve Jobs didn't attempt to eradicate an entire group of people from the face of the earth. He shouldn't be even mentioned in the same sentence with Adolf Hitler. Respecting someone for something he invented and respecting someone for one of the biggest genocides in the history of the world are really in the same league to you?

[Lucian]

61. Gah.

It's like talking to a wall.

[Morrisons Ghost]

67. Sorry?

You appeared to be making moral equivalencies between the two. When there isn't one to be made.

[RegieRocker]

86. The moral equivalence escaped you.

It was about the people who worshiped either one.

[Warren DeMontague]

90. And Steve Jobs's products used science, and we all know where that leads.

think of all the time people spent on their iphones, when they could have been in Church or learning about intelligent design!

[RegieRocker]

85. It was about worshipping a person who wasn't lets say

"A good person". Focus on Hitler all you like. It wasn't about Jobs being Hitler. You know that.

[Warren DeMontague]

94. What is your definition of a "good person", then?

Someone who teaches flat-out bullshit to kids?

[Morrisons Ghost]

98. Then why bring up Hitler at all?

Look If Steve Jobs was an asshole so be it. I think Adolf Hitler is a bit more than just an asshole don't you?

[SidDithers]

107. Yah, but Hitler didn't outsource to China...

:thumbsup:

Sid

[Warren DeMontague]

87. And you have a tendency to use convoluted arguments, just like Charles Manson.

Oh, I'm not comparing you to Charles Manson, oh no.

[RegieRocker]

89. I think you have the Charles Manson convoluted arguments

pegged with this one. It's just like him.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. This entire subthread was immediately lost by default as per Godwin's Law.

But, carry on, dude.

[MedicalAdmin]

69. Wow.

"And look how many people fell for it (except for me)."



Get over yourself. Someone (who others admired in some way) died. They are expressing their regret. And you are taking a moment to take a dump in the middle of that. Ain't you the special one?

[Warren DeMontague]

83. And gold and shit are both made out of matter.

Therefore, shit=gold.

[Wait Wut]

108. Why, then, are you contributing to it all?

I'm assuming you haven't posted through telepathy. Wouldn't you be happier if you removed yourself from the tech world and society altogether? Which computer company do you support and what are their policies? Do they build all their products from environmentally friendly components here in the US?

Except for you...no. You are still part of the problem. Being all holier-than-thou because you weren't a fan of Apple or Steve Jobs does NOT mean you've left no footprint. Get off the grid. Shut off your computer forever. Make all your own clothes out of only organic materials. Don't use a phone. Then you can BEGIN to talk. Until then, :eyes:

[Lucian]

114. I don't own a computer.

I use one on my college campus library.

Now what?

[Wait Wut]

115. You think that makes a difference?

Maybe you should start a revolt. Tell your fellow students that computers are evil and boycott the library. I mean, if you really want to make a difference.

Now what?

[Lucian]

116. You really have no argument.

[Wait Wut]

122. Um.

Yes, I do. But, apparently you have no defense. Being environmentally conscious takes a lot of work. It also forces you to be hypocritical in today's society. Toxins are realeased into our environment by many things, not just iPods, iPads, iPhones and iMacs. Avoiding some is easy, avoiding all is nearly impossible without taking the actions I mentioned (with others, of course). What we can do is encourage companies to make wiser choices. Steve Jobs was making that attempt with his new "spaceship" building by taking it off the grid, offering a private busline with environmentally friendly busses and eliminating above ground parking and replacing it with thousands of trees. You may not like the man or the company, but you can't make statements about toxins without admitting your hypocrisy. It's not like you have a real choice. I'm assuming you're a student and today, that requires technology that may go against your beliefs. Instead of just personally boycotting a company that you "think" causes the most environmental damage, it's up to you to learn how they may be able to lessen their impact.

I've been doing that for over 30 years. I don't know if I've made a difference, but I do admit to being a hypocrite.

[donheld]

123. OMFG

:wtf:

[Major Hogwash]

21. Jobs was one of the great ones, no doubt about it.

Along with other pioneers in their field, he led the way.
Rachel had a very good segment on her program about it last night.
It was one of her best segments on the way people like Jobs have improved our lives with the use of technology.

[Historic NY]

28. People would complain about Edison or Tesla too.

[RegieRocker]

80. Not Tesla. No

[Ikonoklast]

99. Edison used and cheated Tesla.

Money drove Edison, don't kid yourself on that score.

[Warren DeMontague]

104. To be fair, Edison was sort of a thug and an ass.

Half the reason the film industry ended up in So. Cal was because of Edison's East Coast goon squads.

[HappyMe]

31. It's the blatant hypocrisy.

I don't hate the guy. It's too bad he died.

What is ridiculous to me is the sign in one hand that says "Fuck you, 1%! Corporations suck!" While the other is tap tapping away on a $500 phone, not made in this country. They are able to transmit their texts & calls via another huge corporation.

[Not Me]

33. The guy was brilliant, an incredible marketer...

and when I look at the backside of my ipad, I read: Designed in California, Assembled in China.
Now I know that labor rates are cheaper there, but with the volume (250Mil ipods, 100Mil iphones and 25Mil ipads..and counting) and with the high markups that Apple has maintained, why wasn't the assembly brought to the US?

[workinclasszero]

41. Because Steve Jobs only had 7 BILLION dollars in his bank account

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2065581

Poor guy. Must of been tough to live on that piddling amount eh?:sarcasm:

His chinese slave workers only make 140$ per month with forced overtime for all and suicide is an option that many take.

[Javaman]

34. Well, you tried.

but like all the other threads, sadly, this one devolved into another hatefest.

cheers.

[Joe Fields]

46. Yeah...

I had no stock in Apple. I never bought an Apple product.. I am just aware of the fact that the man had changed the way we view the world and for the most part it is a better place for him. He was not perfect, and there is no doubt that Apple has used cheap labor, but for some people here to completely vilify the man when he just died yesterday is soooo wrong.

The man changed the world. In my mind, he can be placed up there with Edison and Ford...

[Javaman]

54. I agree.

Some people will never get it.

Cheers.

[tridim]

42. Jobs deserves scorn..

The half dozen people I know who worked for him said he was the biggest asshole on the planet.

There are plenty of people I don't know who said the same.

[valerief]

48. That's what I remember hearing about him. A real megalomaniac jerk. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

43. I was saying the same things about him when he was alive.

Fact that he's dead doesn't change my opinion any. I'm not going to find nice things to say about Dick Cheney or Margaret Thatcher when they shuffle off this mortal coil either.

[RegieRocker]

91. Hear hear!!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. The opposite of both love and hate is indifference.

I'm neither crying or cheering.

[Safetykitten]

56. Good post.

[Iggo]

57. Dude changed the fucking world.

But hey, he didn't give enough to charity, so yeah...fuck him I guess.

[ChazII]

59. Agree 100%. n/t

[krawhitham]

62. Jobs used other peoples ideas and made money with it

He did not create anything, he was a master salesman. He took ideas, had other make improvements on them and the sold them to the public

Wozniak not Jobs created the Apple computer, They stole the mouse and interface from Xerox

Jobs 1st saw current MP3 players and knew he could profit from them, MP3s being an open format Jobs saw money in making a DRM audio format so he had Jon Rubinstein create the iPod

Motorola released a phone that used iTunes the ROKR E1, Jobs wanted more control and money than Motorola was willing to give so apple produced the 1st iPhone based off Motorola idea

The iPad is just a giant iTouch (iTouch is a iPhone without the phone)

Call it like it is, he was the worlds greatest pitchman

People making him out the be the 2nd coming of Christ is what make me want to puke

[lonestarnot]

64. What? Hide some facts for timing? Nah. Why?

[Pisces]

68. There are stupid assholes everywhere. Steve Jobs will be immortal and those who have nothing

but negativity towards a person who has accomplished so much in so short a time will be dust and forgotten.

[Awsi Dooger]

126. I used to expect a lower percentage of assholes here

Sadly, no. Learned very quickly that death brings out the worst in this place. Paul Wellstone was the first example; every conspiracy theory desperately clutched and an unfortunate accident all but dismissed.

I look at it this way, if you knock Steve Jobs you're a considerable favorite to go through life making basic errors in judgment at almost every turn.

[Mudoria]

75. He was a good frontman for other people's ideas and inventions

Other than that I don't see anything amazing about him.

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Agreed, and I'm not even an apple person, although I do like my ipod.

You need to remember that some folks are so in love with the sound of their own bullshit rhetoric, they forget what the fuck they're talking about.

[Logical]

88. WTF, I see more Jobs death posts than I did Kennedy deaths posts. Stupid!

[ecstatic]

95. Great ideas, RIP. I just wish he would have made the products in America

and not in Chinese sweat shops.

[salin]

96. I have taken to hiding the grave dancing type threads.

[malaise]

97. Agree 100&

Steve Jobs was a visionary and he earned our respect
Rec

[Divine Discontent]

101. he knew how to apply design ideas he'd be shown, and also his own to make things work in everyday

ways, and that is a talent.

the anti-union, foreign worker stuff is certainly part of the story too, but he did a lot for innovation, so I tip my cap to an extremely talented technical guru!



http://www.zazzle.com/worst_congress_ever_do_nothing_republicans_have_bumper_sticker-128285616900051283?rf=238107662556833486

[Rex]

102. A lot of people think he was a straight up asshole

so the grave dancing is not to be unexpected imo.

[DainBramaged]

112. OH LOOK CHARLIE SHEEN

Grow up people, grow up. Criticize the Pukes, the man is dead, he does not care what you think, and quite frankly neither do I.

[Whisp]

118. child and slave labor makes me want to puke as well

lets not paint the guy as a burnished gold hero of everything good. the adoration is just a tad overboard considering he got fat and rich from others poor pay and suffering.

[Union Scribe]

125. I haven't driven any slave laborers to their suicides.

Does that count for anything?

Your post sounds like a press release.

[Lucian]

127. This thread is still active?

Talk about beating a dead Steve Jobs.

[Mr Deltoid]

128. No

It died on Tuesday

[_ed_]

143. The praise heaped upon him makes ME want to puke

Change the world for the better? Are you fucking kidding me? Supplying Americans with electronic gadgets is changing the world?

Two civil rights leaders died today. I'd say they changed the world for the better more than a CEO jerkoff who seems like a monumental asshole who hoarded his money.