Secret panel can put Americans on "kill list'

[nomb]

From Reuters:


"There is no public record of the operations or decisions of the panel, which is a subset of the White House's National Security Council, several current and former officials said. Neither is there any law establishing its existence or setting out the rules by which it is supposed to operate."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/05/us-cia-killlist-idUSTRE79475C20111005

This is just here for informational purposes. This is one area where I could give a rat's-ass about "opinions".

There is no grey area here, you either get it or you don't.

[Speck Tater]

1. The only difference between the US and a banana republic was the death squads.

Kiss that difference goodbye.

[L. Coyote]

2. The only difference between the US and the banana republic was the U.S. death squads there, not here

[nomb]

4. It's unknown if the Kill Orders are limited to outside the lower 48 or are on sight. n't

[Capitalocracy]

22. This is so important for people to understand

Every time people say no, don't worry, the U.S. government would only kill badguys, so if you're not a badguy, don't worry... I think about all the military dictatorships we've installed that would round up, torture, and murder anyone they could find with any amount of education, critical thinking, leftist political leanings, or compassion. And we loved them for it and paid them to get the job done.

It's not OK there, it's not OK here, it's not OK anywhere, and due process and human rights need to be observed everywhere for everyone, even for the people most deserving of whatever the consequences are of their actions in our justice system.

People have so much disdain these days for putting people on trial, as if it was the same as handing out birthday cakes. I don't think anyone who's been on trial would agree with that assessment.

[Vanje]

38. Pinochet also ,only ordered citizens killed if they were

....you know, bad for the country, and stuff.

[EFerrari]

53. Our government is claiming it has the right to globalize the Salvador Option.

That's what this amounts to.

[L. Coyote]

3. "several current and former officials said" sounds like a leak to cover the killer's ass!

[gratuitous]

5. So we're back to the Star Chamber

Delightful.

[ThomWV]

6. I suppose someone will defend this as an Article II prerogative.

[nomb]

7. The lack of indignation here is frightening. I guess the tool is only evil in the "wrong" hands.

[Supersedeas]

9. or the cult of personality

[nichomachus]

11. Well, I'm pretty indignant

I kind of used up my supply of outrage on Bush. I'm finding it hard to be so outraged at his clone now occupying the White House.

[Angry Dragon]

8. The tool is in the wrong hands

and it is not a tool it is a disgrace

[white_wolf]

10. To quote Nietzsche:

"Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster; and if you gaze into the abyss the abyss gazes into you."

[Odin2005]

12. I was right and the people poo-pooing the Awlaqi killing need to apologize.

[vminfla]

13. Every Confederate Soldier Killed at Gettysburg was an Extra-Judicial Killing

According to the thesis of the OP, the US should not defend itself against armed, hostile conflict. War is a dirty business. And, until there are bad-guy seeking bullets, the reasoned and well-thought out approach that resulted in the successful termination of al-Awlaki are an unfortunate necessity.

[nomb]

14. Hey, maybe they can shoot some more peoples enemies? No rules, no record, imagine the possibilities.

[vminfla]

15. Slippery slope argument

Once you let the gays marry, what's next? Will a man be able to marry an elephant seal?

[nomb]

17. The executive branch is ordering death by name in secret for US citizens.

You are correct - the Government is falling rapidly down the slippery slope.

[Vanje]

40. WTF!?

[me b zola]

16. I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that Congress has declared war

We may be blowing the shit out of people all over the globe, but to my knowledge Congress has not declared war.

[Uncle Joe]

20. There was nothing secret about Gettysburg, the Confederates were an armed, imminent threat and they

considered them selves; not to be citizens of the U. S. anymore but of a separate nation.

[vminfla]

21. So immediacy is the variable?

Because al Awlaki was not immediately at Fort Hood with a suicide belt on it was perfectly ok for him to continue to foment terror and arm his minions to be his proxy of death?

Your issue is the efficiency and effectiveness at which he was dispatched?

[Uncle Joe]

23. Immediacy is just one issue, why did you ignore the others I listed?

The whole process of secret indictment, judgment and execution of American Citizens is fraught with danger.

There will be no end to the "War on Terror" (emotion) and we will have some evil people come to power in the White House, what prevents them from executing any political opponent as an enemy of the state?

Do believe that just because we're Americans we can't succumb to the same demons and vices which have tormented and corrupted societies throughout human history?

[vminfla]

26. The other variables you cited were not germaine

al Awlaki hid, therefore there was no immediate threat.
he did not consider himself to be an American citizenship and was armed.

That just left you with immediacy, which I find to not be a compelling argument.

[Uncle Joe]

27. He never renounced his citizenship, and what evidence do you have that he was armed

or guilty?

When arresting someone immediacy of danger and transparency is everything making the difference between self-defense and murder.

[hifiguy]

30. Nonsense on stilts and steroids.

They were an organized army invading the soverign territory of another country, at least in their minds, as they considered the Confederacy to be a separate nation.

[vminfla]

35. So, just like Al Qaeda

You just defined Al Qaeda. I can only assume that you agree with my assessment then.

[hifiguy]

41. What?

The Confederate Army was the Army of an entity that considered itself to be an independent country. Al Qaeda does not consider itself to be an independent country; it is a small trans-national entity that is at best loosely organized and has nothing like an organized army. There is no "capitol" of Al Qaeda. The Confederacy had a capitol city, a president and all the other trappings of soverignty and statehood.

The Confederate Army had a clear commander, one Robert E. Lee. Al Qaeda has no one commander, as it is not organized in a hierarchical or centrally controlled manner. The Confederacy was so organized as a self-proclaimed soverign government. It functioned as a sovereign government until Appomattox.

For the life of me I cannot follow your logic or lack thereof.

[vminfla]

48. Al qaeda declared war on the US in 1998

Al Qaeda declared war on the US in 1998. The Taliban government in Afghanistan was its defacto proxy. Laws and regulations written in Afghanistan were at the sufferance of its defacto leader, Osama Bin Laden.

For the life of me, I cannot follow your logic, or lack thereof.

[hifiguy]

57. Let's see here Watson; no profile,

spewing incoherent right wing talking points. Not amenable to reason.

Time for the

[Vanje]

39. Thats the same argument the pro-Pinochet Chileans used.

[vminfla]

18. Congress authorized the use of military force

in 2001. It would be an abdication of the government's responsibility if they did nothing and allowed terrorists like al-Awlaki free reign to target innocent civilians.

International law is quite clear as well. A nation has a right to defend itself.

There is nothing inconsistent with established jurisprudence. Only the hopelessly naive would sit back and allow themselves to become victims to terrorism.

[nomb]

25. And US Citizen writers in Yemen were mentioned where? Alongside "torture is OK"?

[vminfla]

28. Please rephrase your argument cogently

What is your question?

[nomb]

31. OK, Where is the law that allows us to kill US citizen wordsmiths in Yemen in their beds?

[vminfla]

32. Damn shame about arrest warrants

Lots of fugitives flee prosecution. A&E even has a show starring Dog the Bounty Hunter tracking down dangerous felons and bringing them to justice. Unfortunately, al Awlaki absconded to a foreign country and holed himself up. Perhaps the US should have parachuted an elite corp of lawyers so that al Awlaki could avail himself of representation.

[nomb]

33. His death, and unknown others, was decided upon in secret by the NSC using anew legal memo to create

The executive branch used a secret memo to create this new "privilege".


This is not a judicial action.

[vminfla]

34. What secret list? al Awlaki's father sued last year to have his son off the list

There is nothing secret about the list.

It is, in fact, a lawful action consistent with international and US law.

[nomb]

36. The NSC kill-group meets in secret with no public record - we do not know who is on the list or why.

[vminfla]

37. The meeting minutes are secret, the "list" is a matter of public record

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-25/politics/al.awlaki.lawsuit_1_awlaki-qaeda-yemeni-american?_s=PM:POLITICS

September 25, 2010

The Obama administration has invoked the state secret privilege in seeking to dismiss a lawsuit filed on behalf of the father of Yemeni-American cleric and militant Anwar al-Awlaki, which sought to prevent the U.S. government from trying to target him for assassination.

The government contended in a court filing that was submitted early Saturday morning that the case "would require the disclosure of highly sensitive national security information concerning alleged military and intelligence actions overseas."

"The plaintiff has demanded the government disclose a wide variety of classified information that could harm our national security. It strains credulity to argue that our laws require the government to disclose to an active, operational terrorist any information about how, when and where we fight terrorism, Matthew Miller, Justice Department spokesman, said in a statement Saturday.

[nomb]

45. "the idea that the executive branch can kill its own citizens is unacceptable in a democracy"

From your link:

"the idea that courts should have no role whatsoever in determining the criteria by which the executive branch can kill its own citizens is unacceptable in a democracy. In matters of life and death, no executive should have a blank check."

[vminfla]

47. The idea that one can merely flee prosecution and still engage in terrorism is unacceptable

The result of that lawsuit was that it was dismissed. al Awlaki is now dead. You have your judicial oversight, and the Judicial branch rightly accepted the Executive Branch' assessment.

[Heywood J]

42. "A nation has a right to defend itself."

By that logic, we could get rid of Beijing, because they're harming the country by supplying lead.

[vminfla]

49. Straw man

This fallacy of logic is known as a straw man.

[EFerrari]

50. That's pretty much Paul Wolfowitz's argument.

Do you understand that self defense is not the same as a license to assassinate anyone at will?

International law is quite clear: that is illegal. So is US law.

[vminfla]

51. Impeach Obama then

According to you, this is a high crime and misdemeanor.

I will sit right here and watch that not happen.

[EFerrari]

52. What does that even mean to you?

Does it gratify you that our government is so broken that US and International law can be broken with impunity?

Excuse me if I don't get out the streamers and noise makers.

[vminfla]

55. We have a difference of opinion

You are of the mistaken belief that some laws were broken. As I said, if you so fervently believe that some laws were broken, attempt to impeach Obama.

[EFerrari]

56. Wrong. Assassination is illegal in the United States and against international law.

ACLU, the CCR and the UN agree. It is not a "belief" of mine.

And as I said, you may take pleasure in the fact that a chief executive who violates the law will not be held accountable. I did not when Little Boots violated the law and I certainly do not now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Paging Joe McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, and The Terminator.

Or, maybe they could hire some Al Queda assassins to do the dirty work.

[chill_wind]

24. Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Levin: Release Awlaki Memo

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman: Release Awlaki Memo
Tue Oct. 4

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/10/senate-armed-services-committee-chairman-release-awlaki-memo


Calls of excessive secrecy coming from all directions

http://www.emptywheel.net/2011/10/05/all-sides-agree-there-is-excessive-secrecy-surrounding-targeting-of-us-citizens/

[hifiguy]

29. Yeah, that "hope" and "change" is working out so well,

isn't it? I am disgusted beyond words.

[Zywiec]

43. Kick

[woo me with science]

44. K&R nt

[neverforget]

46. The AUMF gave us 2 wars, indefinite detention, torture

and now secret panels that put you on a list to be killed with the President's okay.

That law has caused a massive amount of damage to this nation and to the world.

[midnight]

54. Yikes...