Steve Jobs, Proud to Be Nonunion (from '07)

[pintobean]

Leander Kahney 02.20.07

Steve Jobs makes a lot of sense when he's talking about music and copyright protection, but when the topic is schools, he seems to be on a different planet.

The teachers' unions, Jobs believes, are ruining America's schools because they prevent bad teachers from being fired.

"I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way," the Apple CEO told a school-reform conference in Texas on Saturday. "This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."

Jobs knows a lot about schools; he's been selling computers to them for more than 30 years. But don't you love it when a billionaire who sends his own kids to private school applies half-baked business platitudes to complex problems like schools? I'm surprised Jobs didn't suggest we outsource education to the same nonunion Chinese factories that build his iPods.

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/news/2007/02/72754

[OhioChick]

1. Nice n/t

[MedicalAdmin]

38. Nice?

You think not supporting unions is nice?

[OhioChick]

54. I didn't think that I needed the sarcasm tag n/t

[MedicalAdmin]

55. Slaps forehead.

[HappyMe]

2. Do tell.

:wow:

[SammyWinstonJack]

3. ...

:yoiks:

[izquierdista]

4. what is is that he knows?

"Jobs knows a lot about schools; he's been selling computers to them for more than 30 years."

With logic like that, old whores should be board certified in urology.

[roguevalley]

56. with all due respect, fuck him. RV-taught 27 years

[dkf]

5. Steve Jobs was pretty notorious for letting go of people he didn't consider up to par.

He demanded excellence in everyone. I can see where he wouldn't have been super enthused about unions.

[pintobean]

7. Union members aren't up to par? How insulting.

[MADem]

14. Can no one read here?

Check it again--the poster is only talking about Steve Jobs' nitpicking PERCEPTIONS, not his own POV.

...that HE considered not up to par...

[pintobean]

18. Read the last sentence again.

[MADem]

19. I can see where he wouldn't have been super enthused about unions.

Yeah....so?

I can see it, too--because he had ABSURDLY HIGH standards. Because he nitpicked. Because he demanded more than was reasonable.

That doesn't mean, because one can SEE how a person arrived at a POV, that they AGREE with it.

Sheesh. This is a problem here--the overenthusism to pile on and assume a POV not stated.

[Name removed]

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[MADem]

40. Nope--didn't see that in the argument, because it wasn't there.

There is no "endorsement" in the comment.

You're extrapolating. The only way you'll know the poster's POV is to ask, directly.

If you take away an assumption from those very limited comments, you are in error.

[roguevalley]

57. the fact that unions demand good salaries and working conditions

might have been part of his 'thinking'. Frankly, he's also famous for his temper.

[MADem]

70. Entirely likely. He surely had a hard eye on the bottom line.

If he could excoriate one solitary guy for not whipping the Chinese help into shape sufficiently, that's way easier (and cheaper, surely) than having to pay living wages for a trained workforce close to home.

[alfredo]

68. I am a union man. I'd love to see a world where unions

are not needed, but there are a lot of bosses that think they are lords and masters. Those who treat their workers like dirt deserve having his workers forming or joining a union. If the boss treats his workers legally and ethically, fine, a union isn't needed.

[MADem]

71. That rising tide will have to lift all boats before we see that.

Right now, so long as there are people who will work for way less, and the price of sending the materials to those people, making allowances for fuckups on the assembly line, and the cost of shipping the finished product back, remains less than paying people right here a living wage with respectable benefits, they're going to keep doing it. We have to make it not worth their while!

Once workers all over the world are in the same metaphorical boat, the inclination to outsource will decline.

As for jerk-bosses, I've had more than my share. I will say that I learned a HUGE amount from them. I learned in great detail, with examples on an ongoing basis, how NOT to treat people. It was a painful way to take the point, but I never forgot! Of course, in the military, there are no unions, so if you end up with an asshole for a boss, you just count the days until you PCS (transfer).

[alfredo]

75. We need an "Arab Spring" for worker's rights.

When I served, we monitored communications. If the pukes treated us like shit we had "sun spots." When the "no such agency" stopped getting traffic, they would ask why. The pukes backed off.

[October]

78. Most Intelligent Post award!

Union family here, too. Wishing unions weren't necessary -- but they are.

I can admire Jobs for his designs, intelligence, and words of wisdom -- without having to agree with everything he said/did in life.

[alfredo]

79. I've followed him from early on. Unlike other CEO's he

thought long term, decades instead of quarters.

One reason he had so many fanboys was that he was not boring. He was progressive. He was fearless. He was everything that the predatory capitalist lacked.

He actually made things we can use, unlike the Wall st traitors.

[dkf]

20. This is what I am talking about. Google Steve Jobs and elevators and there are more.

Ed Niehaus, who was wooed and hired by Jobs to do PR for resurgent Apple, remembers an elevator ride that everyone in Silicon Valley has heard of, but seemed more myth than reality. It was soon after Jobs' triumphant return and he was axing product plans -- and people.

Niehaus recalled: "I once rode down an elevator, not that many floors. We got in the elevator and the next floor a young woman got in, and I could see her go, 'oops, wrong elevator.' And Steve said, 'Hi, who are you?' and introduces himself to her -- 'I'm Steve Jobs' and turned on the charm and said, 'What do you do?' and all this sort of thing. And the door of the elevator opens at the bottom, and he says, 'We are not going to need you.' And we walk away."

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE77O11B20110825?irpc=932

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[dkf]

35. Read the whole thing. The man wasn't petty, he was a perfectionist micromanager.

[MedicalAdmin]

42. If I agree with DKF you can take it to the bank.

That's how I read it too.

He wasn't being petty, he was being focused. And a prick. Hell of a way to find out you are being fired.

[Name removed]

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[roguevalley]

58. wow, what a fucker. Must be nice to have no concerns over people

and their little lives. And he didn't become perfect cause he's gone. He had this rep forever.

[snooper2]

76. Some are not up to par...just like some non-union employees are not up to par..

What the fuck..

Does the moment you become part of a union a magically fucking beam of light hit you and

AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!



Super smart! Super Productive! SUPER EVERYTHING!!! I'm union now I'm on TOP OF THE WORLD :rofl:

[pintobean]

77. WTF indeed

I was referring to the generalization. You added the word 'some', then went into some silly crap.

:wtf:

[Name removed]

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[SammyWinstonJack]

13. ...

:wow:

[dkf]

24. Here is an article that explains it all.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE77O11B20110825?irpc=932

[MADem]

26. He appeared to be a total bastard to work for.

I don't like this sort of "leadership" style. I consider it abusive. Oftentimes, reticent people who don't want to have to "fight the boss" have wonderful ideas.

When Steve Jobs weighs in, it is with a simple set of verdicts: insanely great; really, really great; and shit, Niehaus recalled....He remembers working on one project for two months. "Steve said 'What is this shit? Why are you wasting my time?'" he recalled.

Being chewed up and spat out by Jobs is an experience most Apple employees who have come in contact with Jobs can relate to. And Jobs is known to like people who can stand up to him.

[dkf]

28. Who does like it? But he drives people to be better.

[Name removed]

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[pintobean]

33. So does my union.

[dkf]

37. Good.

[MADem]

36. Often, it stifles creativity.

Often, it creates resentments that will put a drag on the creative process and cause infighting within the work-force.

I've seen many styles of leadership, and this type--which is personality-driven--or cultish, if you will--cannot survive the loss of the leader, unless there is a deputy in the wings with the same sort of angry drive. It also marginalizes many contributors who have good ideas, but who can't compete when it comes to selling an idea. Just because a person doesn't have the requisite verbal skills to fast-talk/defend a concept, does not mean that the concept itself is not good.

Further, that kind of meanness can cause illness. It wouldn't surprise me if his cancer was worsened by his brutal criticism of people whose ideas he didn't like.

[pintobean]

39. We agree on this.

:applause:

Although, I'm not so sure about that last part.

[MADem]

46. I'm not sold on that last part either--it's simply a possibility I can't rule out in my own mind.

A Japanese study about a decade ago found no relation between cancer and personality, but the Chinese continue to treat cancer while considering personality type as a factor in addressing the disease. Angry, demanding, and nitpicky people do function differently than the more mellow and accepting types. There's plenty we don't know about how our bodies work, and since the Human Genome project, we're learning more every day!

[dkf]

41. Apple vs google.

Two different styles.

But yes, we don't know what apple will be without Jobs. Tim Cook looks like he will be more of an implementer than the lead genius.

In terms of innovation though, I doubt Apple will be the same.

[roguevalley]

59. or crazy. most places under this type of management have huge

moral problems and I don't think it generates creativity because who will bring something to a guy like this only to be told you are shit and fired?

[dkf]

64. Apparently much of the creativity came from him.

He mostly needed people to execute.

[MADem]

72. And now, he's dead. If he'd been fostering creativity instead of being the

smartest guy in the room all the time, who knows where the company might be today?

Hopefully, that's the new paradigm, if they want to stay viable.

[Rex]

44. Of course you can.

:eyes:

[workinclasszero]

6. Well ain't that just peachy

Hey you might stir up the Church of Saint Jobs with those inconvenient facts.

Just sayin...

[Brickbat]

8. People love heroes around here; it's good to know everything about a person.

Thanks for posting this. It's important stuff. K&R.

[lonestarnot]

16. Here here.

[crazyjoe]

10. Well, he has a point. It's almost impossible to fire a teacher.

[Name removed]

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[roguevalley]

60. no it isn't. you just have to lie, fake their evaluations two times while

they are on trial and then can them. Easy. seen it done many times. all it takes is a prick with no soul or interest in other people. Say ...

[lynne]

11. Union or not, there's no room in any school for a below-par teacher -

- and there are some out there. There are below-par persons in all lines of work. Lousy teachers need to find another field so I agree with him on that point, at least.

[Name removed]

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[lynne]

17. Sorry, wrong. In some fields you can let sub-par sneak through -

- it's not so important that someone doing office work can't input data as fast as the guy at the next desk. But education is critical and teachers have a huge influence on children that lasts a lifetime. A lousy teacher needs to find another line of work and I say this as someone who has put three children through school. I've seen the impact a lousy teacher can have on a child. I've also seen the impact of excellent teachers. The difference is so stunning that there is no comparison.

[JVS]

22. Teaching is a career path that doesn't offer much. Take away stability (one of the few)...

things it has offered until recently, and you'll just attract a worse pool of applicants. Continue cracking down on teachers and you're going to end up with people who will turn out to be child molesters getting 18K a year because they'll be the only ones willing to work the job, but only because it offers them access to kids.


So, have fun with that.

[WinkyDink]

27. 18K??!!! Where are you?! Try $60----$90K.

Lehigh Valley, PA---You know, where those "H.S. Girls' Photos on Porn Sites" recent stories are from.

[JVS]

43. Future tense: learn it, live it.

[MedicalAdmin]

45. Is that the starting salary?

Given the national average for teachers starting salary is WAAAAAAAAY below that, are you sure? I tried to check on there website and it isn't posted. Gotta link?

[roguevalley]

63. that is a veteran teacher with a master salary.

[MedicalAdmin]

67. OH Jesus. That isn't a starting salary.

It's for someone with at least 20 years experience and a masters degree or 2 (because most salary charts for teachers don't pay extra for doctorates or multiple masters so those really don't count.

Don't you think everyone with an important professional job should be making about $60 to 80 thousand?




What exactly do you think teachers should be making? Minimum wage?

[roguevalley]

62. if you are going to quote salaries like that tell the rest of it.

they are people with 15+ years in and a masters degree. You are stopped on the salary scale at usually somewhere around 38k without killing yourself with the years and degree. That doesn't count taking courses in between certifications to you can get your credential. You don't start at 60k and you don't get it quickly. Most of your career is over by the time you get there.

[roguevalley]

61. amazing how we became the root of all evil isn't it.

[Lucian]

15. I wonder what the Apple cult thinks about this.

Or is this another one of those inconvenient facts that get in the way of everything?

[HappyMe]

23. What is inconvenient fact, Alex?

[MedicalAdmin]

47. What cult?

Seriously, is there a church somewhere I don't know about?

[Rex]

51. Very much a cult, the OS for the Mac is no better then Windows7.

Yet everyone on the planet has a PC. Apple needed a cult following just to keep the product alive until the new century.

[kestrel91316]

25. One reason why I think the fawning adoration of Jobs by many on the left is a tad misplaced.

Yes, I know, he was a Democrat and a vegan and didn't wear business suits.

But being anti-union is for me pretty much a mark of the devil.

[Name removed]

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[MedicalAdmin]

50. Lefty types?

Lefty types.

What a ... provocative ... turn of phrase.

[Name removed]

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[Lucian]

53. Not only that...

the slave labor that was used to produce Apple products.

No Democrat should ever go for that.

[Rex]

49. Meh...another loser that hated capitalism and democracy.

RIP for all the workers in China that committed suicide instead of spending one more day in his slave factories.

[marlakay]

65. Can't people wait until he is dead awhile to put him down?

Yeah he didn't have liberal principals we would have liked but he made some great things for the world, things that make our lives happier like Ipod's and Iphones.

[pintobean]

66. My principles can't be corrupted by toys/tools.

And threads like this are a direct result of all the praise he was receiving. Whatever you think the waiting period should be, it should also apply to those idolizing the man.

[JVS]

73. I don't have an ipod or an iphone and I don't think they'd make my life happier.

[MADem]

74. Well, not to put too fine a point upon it, he won't be any less dead with time.

And the news cycle moves fast. It's probably now or never to discuss his successes and shortcomings.

The retrospectives on his life are praising him as "The Edison of His Day" and other superlatives. They actually interrupted my damn favorite TV show (Jeopardy) to tell me the guy died--like he's Winston Churchill or something. They blabbed on through Double AND Final Jeopardy, too!

He's not a head of state, he's not Nelson Mandela or Mother Theresa. He ran a successful firm that made computers, phones, and gadgets. He hasn't been at the helm of that firm for some time owing to illness. I personally think they didn't have to cut into network TV (but oh, they retained those commercials) to tell us something we could have learned on the network news. They could have even run a crawl to tell us, but no--I had to see the whole CBS eye, the drama, the "Who's been shot?" feeling, to find out this guy died. I don't have a single one of his products, and neither does anyone in my house.

And apparently, his management style was a bit....brusque. Cruel, even. If you're going to look back on someone's life, might as well cover all the bases. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, and all that...

[pintobean]

69. Kick

for Mr. Biteme