99+1 = 100

[Cats Against Frist]

My boyfriend and I argue -- usually everyday -- about whether or not corporate greed or human greed is the more significant problem. My position is that the 99 percent are the corporations, the government and the American consumer -- and the 1 percent are people who see the problems with that unholy alliance.

These corporations did not get rich by themselves. They got rich off of selling millions of Twinkies, Swiffers, anti-depressants, cancer and diabetes drugs, gas for our bazillion automobiles, Tickle Me Elmos, MacBooks and whatever trillions of zillions of dollars the American consumer has complacently, blindly and obliviously spent in the last 100 years.

Mostly, they got rich off our credit card and home and auto loan interest. They got rich off of our poor health choices, our desire for comfort and convenience. Our desire to work less and have more.

While we were watching Glee, Top Model, All in the Family, Cheers and MTV, they consolidated wealth, bought off the government, bought media outlets -- and all the while, appealing to the dumbest, most magical-thinking among us that this was somehow right and good and meant that we were God's chosen people.

The one percent sucks, but the 99 percent is FAR more responsible for this than the 1 percent. If anything happens to inspire real and lasting awareness in the American people, it will be like that PSA in 80s where the coke addict sits on his porch and explains everything he lost. The American people have lost their pride, their efficacy, their government, their power, their labor and their money.

My boyfriend says its because they're stupid and manipulated by television and they need help. I look at our family, which is well-off and uses plenty of power and lights and expensive and imported food (he has type 2 diabetes) and gas -- and I think about how we're part of the problem. How even though I'm a writer and I am very self-aware and self-enriched and well-educated and I try to make good choices (all organic food, try to buy used or handmade, give to charity every week, exercise, etc.) -- that I still am using too much and not saving enough and that I could be doing more.

I look at the newspaper articles that chronicle the poor in the food bank lines and notice how many of them decided to have children when they were already poor. I look at the MacBooks powering the revolution and wonder if all the energy and power and slave labor to make the computers (I have one), is necessary to get us to change. I look at the gross-ass processed food that everyone is shoveling down their throats -- from cream of mushroom soup, to McDonald's to chocolate syrup. I look at my little son and his plastic-ass legos and wonder how many of them are floating the Pacific Garbage Vortex.

OWS is not about how a small group of evil people have fucked us over. It's how we've fucked ourselves. Without that realization, none of this will ever really change.

[izquierdista]

1. Self-aware and well-educated??

:rofl: :rofl:

Had you studied history at all (try reading some Howard Zinn), you would see that the 1% have been hoodwinking the 99% since the dawn of civilization. They claim that God put them in charge or told all manner of lies to get enough of a following to dominate the majority of common folk. As priests or royalty or democratically elected politicians, they demand to be put in charge, even though there is ample evidence that humans can function without a ruling caste. The average person's greed is at some point sated; theirs isn't.

That 1% has more in common with the unrepentant criminal 1% than they do with the average person. Violent criminals are locked up as a danger to society, but those with insatiable greed are admired as "captains of industry". They push the other 99% through advertising (itself a perverted offshoot of human psychology) to work for them.

I won't call the 1% "evil", as they just engage in an abnormal behavior, but I WILL call for them to be restrained.

[Cats Against Frist]

5. Um, I'm wondering if you heard about the Enlightenment

and I'm an minarchist -- I don't like churches, kings or government. And I have read Zinn, and, in fact, my son is reading "A Young Person's History of the United States."

Tell me, oh wise one, how the 1 percent got us to fat ourselves stupid, run up billions of dollars in credit and plunder the developing world for our comfort. And "advertising" doesn't cut it.

[tama]

16. Blame the annual hay plants

which as we know, aren't the smartest of plants. :)

There was the ice age or dunno what, dry season and little trees and people had little to hunt and gather and they felt hungry and miserable. They ate the seeds of hay plants and slow by slow started coevolutionary relation with hay plants such as wheat, barley, rice etc. Coevolution of humans and annual hay plants is called "civilization", and let's admit it, things got little out of hand, as we now can clearly see.

[Cats Against Frist]

24. I like your broad and creative thinking n/t

[tama]

30. Related thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x307483

[CJCRANE]

2. The 99% are the people

who have lost out in this economy.

[TBF]

3. You've got it backwards -

when you have an economic system that rewards greed that is the behavior you will see. Change the system and you may see a change in what folks value and how they act.

[Cats Against Frist]

6. So, you're talking about the sytem forcibly changing the people? Something like

The Great Leap Forward?

[TBF]

9. Did I say that?

You're quite creative with your red-baiting, I'll give you that. Every time I read one of your posts, however, I wonder what you're doing on a message board for democrats.

[Cats Against Frist]

11. I've voted for the Democrat in every election I've ever voted in...

and Democrats, I would hope, have a wide variety of sophisticated opinions. And "democrat" does not mean "socialist." I support social safety nets and I hate Republicans.

And you said to change the system and then the people will change -- how does that work, exactly? In a democracy, how do you change the system BEFORE the people change?

[TBF]

12. As have I ...

and I would like to see us move to some sort of socialist state. I'm not sure whether we can do it with taxation or whether it will take some sort of revolution, but definitely what we are doing now is resulting in extreme economic inequality which does not benefit more than 1-5% of us at most.

I'm surprised to see you call yourself a minarchist - is that not a libertarian viewpoint?

[Cats Against Frist]

13. I believe it's clearly laid out in the 10th Amendment to the Constituion of the United States

I'm an elitist, actually, to tell you the truth. I think that my family is doing everything it can to be productive and we have two boys we're raising to make the right kind of choices for the community and the individual. We're not rich, but well-off and we give a lot to charity and save our money, but we make sure we're living a nice life. I never said that I wasn't one of the 99 percent that was partially responsible for the problem...

I don't like socialism, because I don't hold illusions that the poor are somehow noble because they are poor, and I do believe that, most of the time, we're the products of the decisions we make. I, as a human with a heart and brain, however, do believe that no one should suffer, so I do believe in basic (very basic) housing/food/medical care for the poor, and especially for children, the elderly and disabled. That said, I'm against socialism, because I do not feel the need to give a LARGE portion of my own money to nontargeted and wasteful government entitlement programs. I'm good with taxes for fire departments and police -- but I support private schooling and I'm not a huge fan of forced diversity.

Worse, however, are the choices of people who are not poor-poor, but the middle class and the working class, who I see as a much bigger problem. If you look around, even though the poor-poor are doing bad and that category is growing, the bulk of people are still doing okay, making the engine run and that's why Wall St. is like "whatev."

[kctim]

15. +a million

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cats Against Frist]

22. Democrats don't believe in the Constitution? n/t

And why do Republicans get to corner the market on states' rights?

[leftstreet]

18. You have a (g)Rand philosophy. Thanks for sharing

The 'poor' don't believe they're noble 'because they're poor.' Rich people believe that

lol 'poor-poor' Is that your own term? I gotta remember that

[Cats Against Frist]

21. Would it make you feel better if I took the time to write out

"those who live below the poverty line?" And comfortable, middle-class socialists believe the poor are noble because they're poor.

[leftstreet]

23. I'd feel better if you stopped writing actually. DU members don't support your Libertarian crap n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

25. Explain to me what libertarian crap means, exactly? Because I'm not certain.

I haven't called for the end of the fire department or police, I believe that the government should take care of those who might be suffering and the weak and I believe in environmentalism and taxing the extremely wealthy and I support amendments calling for the end of corporate personhood and corporate welfare and unlimited campaign contributions. I believe that corporations run the government and I support the occupation of Wall st.

I'm just not a socialist -- is that what you mean?

[leftstreet]

26. No need to. You've done a good job of explaining it to thousands of people who read here

:-)

[Cats Against Frist]

27. You embody the spirit of my first post, perfectly.

Be sure to wash the wax off your fingers when you take them out of your ears.

[white_wolf]

29. So am I the only sick of all the Ayn Randites that are popping up here lately?

[Cats Against Frist]

32. Could you please tell me what that means to you? An "Ayn Randite?"

[white_wolf]

40. Look at your posts. You'll see plenty of examples.

[Cats Against Frist]

44. I want to know what it means to you.

[TBF]

35. I've noticed an increase the past few days -

I think the 1% are feeling the pressure.

[Cid_B]

61. I thought it was pretty good actually...

So speak for yourself...

[Pithlet]

117. No, that's just what right wingers think "middle class socialists" think n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

119. I'm not a right winger and I believe it's TOS violation to keep calling me one

If anything, I'm half nebulous so-left-I'm-right camp or I am a radical centrist. Either way, as I explained, I vote Democrat because I hate Republicans. Please stop.

[Pithlet]

129. So alert on me then n/t

[Quantess]

103. I am a believer that the bottom of the top 1%

if that makes any sense, is a rightful part of our middle class. It's only one out of 100. It's the greedy assholes at the tippy-top who are funneling their money overseas, or whatever trickstery then can conjure. Getting more money is their only goal. The problem begins when we see that the 400 richest Americans all got a lot wealthier when everyone else tanked. Can you seriouly argue with that? I don't think you can.

[Cats Against Frist]

106. I don't think I ever was arguing with that. n/t

[newspeak]

114. I remember the greedy eighties, I remember the "meme"

back then. Workers now will have freedom to chose wherever they wish to work, there's no more "corporate loyalty." And the media pushing the corporate agenda telling the american people how the japanese were more industrious than americans(also more suicides). I also remember an auto factory, I believe, it was in the south who outproduced the japanese, but the factory still went bye-bye.

So, you think americans don't want to work as much. That's it!!! Even though there european counterparts get way more days off than any american worker. It's just those lazy americans. My hubby has worked hard all of his life, took calls in the middle of the night after working in the day. I've worked since I was thirteen years old. You sound just like those "reagan" businessmen during the eighties. That's right, all of us americans are just lazy.

Yeah, some have fallen for the competing with the jones next door. But, don't fool yourself, they have had plenty of help. That's what PR industries and politicians like little boots are for. See, our jobs as american citizens are to buy cheap stuff. At least that's what my glorious president told me to do after 9/11. The"fish rots from the head down." We've had the most shallow, greedy, sociopathic uninspiring leaders for such a long time. And, I'd say a few have sold us all down the road.

[newspeak]

115. oh, and I want to add

something I will never, ever forget--Clinton on TV after NAFTA was signed. Told us how it was a new era for american workers, we were all going to be the service industry of the world. How's that working out?

[Quantess]

116. You are a pawn.

I am completely serious. This is the first time I read this post. You imagine you have it made because you are in the top 1%? Hilarious!

[Cats Against Frist]

137. I'm not in the top one percent -- not even close, I'm certain.

You don't have to be in the top one percent to take pride in yourself and want to better your world.

[tama]

20. We are born in to the system

of collective insanity. And insanity is not all bad, it can be also very creative.

As Jiddu Krishnamurti (and others) say, change starts from the individual, from acceptance instead of denial. We need something like a 12 steps program of mutual support.

Hi, my name is tama and I'm part of this collective insanity or what some call "Babylon". I'm getting better together with others, but as we know, the jig usually goes like couple steps forward, one behind. :)

[warrior1]

4. it's more like

corporate welfare is good and welfare for the poor is bad.

They get rewarded for screwing up the economy and the poor, under employed are kept in their places. Listen to Elizabeth Warren on the subject. It's about keeping some for yourself but just asking for them to pay their fair share. Bring the jobs back to American soil.

[Cats Against Frist]

8. I don't think that I ever said that I disagreed with that

I believe in social welfare and the ultra rich paying their fair share of taxes. I agree with import-substitution industrialization and buying American. People should buy fewer things and pay more for them to sustain a living wage for American workers. They just don't.

[Pithlet]

65. "they just don't"

See, I was just going to leave this thread alone after dropping my one liner down below. But it's so hard to let "They just don't" go. See, this is what gets me about you bootstrappy types and your blythe pronouncements. Just what exactly are people supposed to do? How exactly are we supposed to go about paying more for them, exactly? You know, I would absolutely love to be able to buy fewer, more expensive local handmade things. I'd love to live in that world. Gee, it would be nice. I'm sure it would also be nice to live in a world where more Americans could make those choices, or could afford to make them. But, gosh, it's our fault, right? It's our fault that greed took over and took those choices away. Because you say so! But go ahead. Spread that bullshit. The 1% will thank you.

[Cats Against Frist]

68. If you don't have any money, why would you be buying anything -- handmade or otherwise?

If we're talking about someone who is poor enough that he or she does not have the money to buy the basic necessities, then we're not talking about someone who is concentrating money in the hands of the rich. I don't think the very poor are the problem. If you can buy things beyond necessities, you're not poor.

[Pithlet]

69. But you support the OWS... Right. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

72. I guess that's open to interpretation

I support getting money out of politics, raising taxes on the extremely wealthy, jailing the criminals at Goldman-Sachs et. al., passing regulations on speculation, swaps, shorting and hedging and I'm against corporate welfare.

So, in that sense, "yes."

If they want me to skip off into the wifty socialist sunset with them, then "no."

What is the point of calling something "Occupy Wall St." if your goals are a cultural revolution?

[Pithlet]

74. I'm not a socialist.

I'm just not a pull yourself up by the boot straps victim blaming type. You don't have to be anywhere near socialist to think that's crap. In fact, most people I know who think that way are mostly on an entirely different political spectrum.

[Cats Against Frist]

77. Why shouldn't someone pull him or herself up -- I mean if they can.

Why is this demonized? People should help themselves and work hard. I understand that sometimes they can't, sometimes its gamed and sometimes the opportunity is harder to find. But why, out of hand, do you think that people shouldn't work hard to lift themselves up?

[Pithlet]

78. Nope. Not going to play with you today. Sorry.

If you were truly sincere, you'd know the answer to those questions.

[Cats Against Frist]

80. I'm absolutely sincere

And I asked you for YOUR answers. Not the answers that I would answer. I'm very sincere about wanting to know what you think about that topic.

[Pithlet]

83. Why? There's no point.

I'm sure you've had this discussion many times. From the point of view of a bootstrapper it doesn't matter. You see the point of view from your fabulous victim blaming pedestal. Nothing I could say change a thing. From those who don't see the world that way, the question isn't Why shouldn't they? Because we don't assume they won't to begin with. We don't see ourselves as fabulous paragons of virtues up on our pedestals, looking down at all the rest of the great unwashed, see? But you can't talk to those that do. They never see it. That's why there's no point. Some day, some get knocked off and see the light. Maybe that will one day happen to you. Who knows?

[xchrom]

7. so 'the people' should live in some kind of Stoic Discomfort?

it's their fault for not being 'willfully deprived"

you must be a lot of fun at parties -- worse, your parties are probably horribly short on salty nuts.

[Cats Against Frist]

10. My parties are legendary for the food

you didn't read the part about the imported or organic food, no? I just tend to serve locally made gourmet salami (Salumi) and Mount Townsend's Seastack (made on the peninsula) and local wine. I admit that I'm a sucker for imported olives, though. And I would never serve plain, salted nuts.

I will admit, too, that I recently bought the first block of Velveeta I've ever bought in my adult life, because I wanted to recreate a dish from my childhood. And my son asked me the other day, "What's Kool-Aid?" so I bought him the first and last pack I'll ever buy him.

I think that we should have things -- but we should be much more responsible for things -- invest in smaller companies, buy handmade, don't buy things on credit, buy expensive quality stuff, local and organic stuff, and be somewhat thrifty. I admit, I have a soft spot for sweater tights...

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. Did we, the 99%, ship our manufacturing overseas so that I MUST

buy a cheap-ass bicycle from China?

With flat wages for 35 years, people were FORCED to buy cheap rather than buy American. And the more cheap we bought, the more incentive there was for the owners, the 1%, to ship the manufacturing overseas - costing us jobs, and thus forcing us to buy cheap Chinese crap.

In my younger days, I'd buy a bicycle and it would last until it got stolen. Years. I buy one I can afford today, and it is a pile of junk in two years.

If you want to rail against the consumerist culture, fine, I'm right there with you. But the problem is not that we have a consumerist culture, but that the (sometimes dubious) rewards of that culture are diverted to the 1% who make the rules, buy the politicians, and write the laws keeping the 99% from getting value for their investment IN the culture. The 1% who have all the say in the destructive environmental practices of the corporations. The 1% which decides to sell us crap without telling us it is made by children in Thailand, and passes laws to prevent us from finding that out.

Yes, are are manipulated by advertising. We are also manipulated by ignorance and poverty, by lack of resources, by lack of options. Just consume less? Fine. No birthdays this year. Cancel christmas. Will that bring the factories back from overseas? Will that raise the median wage?

I despise WalMart, and what it has done to our economy, but I don't blame anyone for shopping there - for many, it is the only option left.

[Cats Against Frist]

19. I respectfully, and partially disagree

For 100 years, this company has been making bicycles in the US:

http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/cruisers.html

I don't like anecdotal evidence, but when I was a kid, we were rich -- sometimes. My daddy was union coal miner, but he was driven out of work because Illinois coal was dirty and the EPA made it so scrubbers had to be installed in coal-fueled plants. Electric companies then decided that rather than install the scrubbers, that they would get coal from other states that had naturally cleaner-burning coal.

I lived in a town that was supported by a local mine. Each shop closed up around the square, and then we started shopping at Wal-Mart. But I realized, as I got older, that we didn't start shopping at Wal-Mart because the prices were cheaper -- we could just buy MORE!! And there was more selection, and it was all in one place. My mother and father, who eventually invested and inherited and whatnot, are well-off and they JUST KEEP SHOPPING THERE.

Lots of people I know shop at Wal-Mart that don't HAVE to shop there. And people who are underwater with bills have a new iPhone. And I see overweight people waddling into the McDonald's every freakin' day as I drive past to go to the local food co-op (and I'm overweight, too).

I agree that the one percent suck. But we have to take responsibility. They shouldn't have to tell us that the stuff is made from kids in Thailand -- we should be finding this out and purchasing accordingly. We should be looking at which corporations make a smaller environmental footprint -- the information is out there!!! People should have supported their unions. People should turn off the television.

My point is not that the one percent didn't do anything wrong -- they just did it with a partner -- the 99 percent.

[marions ghost]

63. thank you

:applause: well said

[DaveJ]

28. I think the 1% dumbed us down

We didn't do this to ourselves. The stuff you mentioned... car, home, cheap food (who can afford organic?), Chinese products (what can afford handmade?), etc., are not decisions, but necessities, for most who want to be a part of the system created by the 1%.

Granted, we could have nipped it in the bud sooner. I think our problem is that we were too trusting. We trusted the 1% cared about our best interest. Now, we know otherwise. We now need to be cynical of everything. But that's not possible, because the moment we drop our guard we will get screwed again. We need to combat the 1% who is RIPPING US OFF and not blame ourselves.

Laws need to be changed. Companies need to be rated based on the success of their employees, not the success of their executives.

I agree with you in spirit. To be honest, I see how selfish your everyday Joe is, and I wonder if people even deserve a better deal. I think most people would lay off 1000 people, if they were to make a million bucks from it, given the chance. I come into contact with thousands of people daily and they are a greedy jaded bunch. I do not think they are consciously selfish, though, they are just educated to be that way. So I think that having a rough time in life is almost like something they need.

But the 99%, people who are aware of their misfortune, those who have had it rough, who realize that life is unfair, and instead of accepting it, they know it can be improved. So they are taking a stand and demanding that the system change. I know the system can be made better. It's worth a try.

[tama]

36. "We trusted the 1%"

That brings to my mind a tribe of hundred with one shaman. Granted, there are still tribes that rely on shaman-institute and can live sustainably in balance with the ecosystem they are part of, but it's not a fool proof system and of course also shamans can be fools, not to mention the "dumbing down" effect of 99 relying on 1 for critical knowlegde. Life is about movement, change and evolution, and there is no going back to the hunter-gatherer shamanistic ways. We all need to evolve in self-confidence, wisdon, compassion and responsibility instead of relying on that 1% shaman/priest/politician/bankster. AFAIK, the oldest people on Earth, the San-people of Kalahari desert, are most evolved human culture in some respects. They never make war and 40% of the population are "shamans" - initiated into altered states of mind.

R-evolution! Let's keep on breathing, so we can breath more easily when the days of systemic financial oppression aka capitalism are over.

[Cats Against Frist]

52. Dumbed "who" down?

Did it dumb you down? It doesn't sound like it. It didn't dumb me down. Since I got shunned in fourth grade for supporting Mondale in a student election, I've hated right-wing and corporate fascism. My parents were Democrats when I was young, but my father is now a Republican. My parents were and are the ultimate consumers. For the last 37 years of my life, I have sought to better myself through education and make my world better through charity, art and leaving a minimized environmental footprint. I still suck -- and I am the 99 percent -- but no one dumbed me down.

I'm not poor, but I am overweight, which is really my one and only personal flaw. Even though there are real reasons why I was fucked from the beginning with genes and parents who fed me crap food and doctors that put me on diets as a kid, thereby starting a lifetime of yo-yo dieting, I still take responsibility for being overweight. It's my fault that I haven't taken the steps to fix it for good (once I lost 160 lbs., though). I feel that it is my job to fix my problem and I work on it constantly. I live with shame akin to being poor, I think -- maybe worse -- and I even tell myself sometimes that it's okay to be like this. The fact is, it's not -- and it's part of the problem.

I'm faced with something difficult that, though a combination of circumstance and environment, put me at a disadvantage when I was a person too young to make smart decisions. Someone should have been looking out for my health -- but they weren't. Now, as an adult, I still have this problem, and it's only my job to fix it. It's my responsibility. It is my condition that I have to fix. Imagine that.

[tblue37]

101. This is probably far too sweeping an assertion:

". . . I am overweight, which is really my one and only personal flaw." If that is truly your one and only personal flaw," then someone needs to nominate you for sainthood!

Sorry, but people are people, and I don't believe anyone has just "one and only <one> personal flaw!"

I am actually surprised anyone would make such a claim.

[Cats Against Frist]

107. I work hard at trying to be a great person

That's my only major flaw, though, if we're thinking politically. I'm still not a great house cleaner, either. I might be slightly confrontational, but I promise -- you'd like me by the end of the first drink. Most people do.

[Hutzpa]

31. Their greatest act was to create entertainment TV

real life drama that kept Americans watching while they rob their savings.

[Cats Against Frist]

33. Who was keeping Americans watching? n/t

[Avalux]

34. Correct answer.

What would happen if TV went away?

[tama]

37. Internet addiction nt

[Hutzpa]

38. The difference with internet is communication

they (the 1%er) are working overtime to get control of the internet so they can control what you say,
what you see and from whom you get your information from, just as they did with TV.

What they don't understand is that the internet is a different environment from television.

[tama]

41. yes

internet is participatory action, TV just passive watching. And TPTB does understand this, in a way, but this was first created by Pentagon and TPTB have become dependent from this and can't shut it down. All they can do is try to censorship as in China and elsewhere.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. Let me introduce you to some people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFYk8wFNpys&feature=player_embedded

[Cats Against Frist]

48. I think it's absolutely great and I support the march

what part of this am I supposed to disagree with?

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. Not one in a thousand of them would agree with you. nt

[Cats Against Frist]

70. About which part?

That corporations are greedy? That we need a social saftey net to keep people from suffering? That we should have Constitutional amendments that should abolish corporate personhood and end corporate campaign contributions? Would they disagree with me about being an environmentalist, or pro-union or in favor of a living wage?


If you just mean about the part where it's partially their fault -- of course they wouldn't agree. They're not ready to take responsibility for that.

[FarLeftFist]

42. HOLY CHRIST IS THIS A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT!

[Cats Against Frist]

45. The exact opinion that I might expect coming from "Far Left Fist."

I guarantee, though, that I'm further left than you are. Or I'm a radical centrist.

[FarLeftFist]

56. How about this:

We'll take responsibility for "doing this to ourselves" when we actually have a choice in the first place.

Those people will stop shopping at Wal-Mart when Wal-Mart stops annihilating the competition in every city, and is some peoples only choice, for example.

We'll take responsibility when our wages are high because there is no longer job outsourcing yet we still want to save 8 cents so we buy non-American made products.

We'll take responsibility for doing this to ourselves when we control the price of oil and not speculators.

We'll take responsibility for doing this to ourselves when we enter into an agreement with a bank that won't force us out of our homes.

We'll take responsibility for doing this to ourselves when we actually ARE represented in Govt and put ahead of bought votes.

I PAID MY TAXES.

I DIDN'T WAGE WAR ON ANY NATION.

I DON'T WRITE FEDERAL BUDGETS.

I DIDN'T GIVE TAX BREAKS TO BILLIONAIRES.

The MIDDLE CLASS didn't do any of that either, the super-rich do that.

etc

etc

WE didn't set this broken, oppressive system up to begin with, and as a civilization, we have every right to want to tear it down as well.

And what about the global situation?! Because of the way the system is set up 20% of the world consumes 80% of the natural resources while 80% of the world tries to live on 20% of the natural resources.

This problem goes deeper than Americans being fat and lazy.

[Cats Against Frist]

60. Then, we are the 80 percent.

The only way to make that situation equitable is if we give up all of our comforts and we all live an austere world. I'm well aware of the global situation, and that's the joke. We're complaining from our Lazy-Boys and warm houses about why we normal American citizens can't reclaim the the wealth that is due to us.

How are you going to fix the broken, oppressive system of the human condition?

[FarLeftFist]

91. No no no. We want the system to be more just. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Sure, you will find your anti-capitalists, but it's not about that. These college students don't want to be paying off interest on loans for 2 decades, they want higher wages and a better job market i.e. no outsourcing so they can pay off their loans in 5 years.

Btw, WE are not complaining from our Lazy Boys, we are protesting the fight of our lives. Most can't afford Lazy-Boys like you can. Do you really think the middle class created 14 trillion dollar deficit?! Uh-Uh. War did, high interest rates did, tax breaks for billionaires did. WE don't set the rules. BLAME THE ONES WHO MAKE THE RULES.

[Cats Against Frist]

95. I would never buy a Lay-Z-Boy n/t

[FarLeftFist]

43. If you can't see how capitalism enslaves more people than it frees than you are BLIND.

We are slaves to the system. We aren't blaming people, no one is carrying a sign with a specific persons name on it, the entire system is to blame. We're mad that because someone is rich and can afford to buy a senator that our voices no longer count, etc etc. Why is this so hard for people to understand?!

[Cats Against Frist]

47. I'm mad because rich people can buy senators

in fact, it's a travesty of monumental proportions. I support a constitutional amendment that says corporations cannot spend money on politics. What does any of that have to do with what I wrote? I never wrote that things didn't suck and that we were screwed -- I just think we screwed (continue to screw) ourselves right along with the 1 percent.

And what benevolent captors, eh?

[Quantess]

55. I agree with your mindset a little bit.

I'm guessing you're a bit younger and rawer than most DUers. I may have written something similar before I turned 30.

But I assure you, you are missing the bigger picture, that the suppressed people (who used to be middle class)are in the situation they find themselves in not because of their own stupidity, poor judgement, etc, because that is just not true! Wealthy, greedy, smarmy, capitalist fucks are no more inherently bright or talented than a misfortunate American who did everything right, but lost out in the end.

[FarLeftFist]

57. Exactly, we'll blame ourselves when the playing field isn't extraordinarily unbalanced.

The middle class didn't cause this economic collapse, the super wealthy did. I PAID MY TAXES! I don't create federal budgets, or wage wars, or give people mortgage loans, or hand out tax breaks to billionaires, etc.

[Cats Against Frist]

62. Explain to me how "far left fist" is compatible with the idea of "middle class."

[Quantess]

64. You need that explained to you?

You should read a little more. There is no middle class without the left.

[Cats Against Frist]

67. No -- that's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking how someone who calls him or herself "far-left fist" would be compatible with the idea of a middle class. There is no middle class without capitalism, either. I guess I'm just asking how "far left" is "far left."

[Quantess]

75. To the "far left" of what we've got right now, after decades of shifting to the right

would be wise for our nation. I'm not saying this as a hippy pot smoker, understand, because I'm neither.

Wait, what... "There is no middle class without capitalism"?! Please DO educate yourself: Unfettered, unregulated capitalism has no middle class. You really do need to read history a little more.

[Cats Against Frist]

79. I didn't say unregulated or unfettered

People need to stop claiming that I'm saying something different. I know that I'm hitting a nerve the more irrational the responses get (this is not directed at you, specifically).

I mean the far-left, far-left -- I am well aware of the political spectrum. I don't think that the "far" left, which is generally reserved for left-wing anarchists, pure communism, etc., is compatible with the idea of a middle class.

[Quantess]

82. Okay, but then again you are judging

the person who chose the moniker "Far Left Fist", just for the name. So what's all this judgmentalist attitude about?
I get that vibe really strongly, that you are judgmental. In that light, if you want to be judgmental, point it toward the people who deserve it...the ones who FUCKED US OVER! The banksters who took our money and want to roll us all, once again.

[Cats Against Frist]

88. Not judging -- just asking. n/t

[Quantess]

92. Hey, I want to ask you

Why are you in the bottom 99%?

I already can tell that it's at least partly your own fault, because you are poor at navigating in our society which is an uneven playing field. If you are like me you began life from middle class upbringing, made all the proper decisions in life, got a solid education (I did) had no children (probably wise), and then found yourself POOR and STRUGGLING.

No wait... I know, it's because YOU made lousy decisions.

[Cats Against Frist]

97. Totally right

When I was younger, I was poor and struggling and I was lazy, bad at navigating society on the unequal playing field (overweight white woman -- passed over for two well-deserved promotions for skinny blondes). When I was poor already, I got drunk a lot and had unprotected sex and got pregnant by an alcoholic who worked a minimum-wage job. I didn't work because I was lazy and unskilled -- even with two college degrees. I was unskilled because I didn't take advantage of all the opportunities that I could have had -- and get this -- my student loan debt, which is $30,000, wasn't to pay for school -- I had a free ride -- it was because I didn't want to work.

Good stuff, eh -- real brain child over here.

It wasn't until I sobered up from all the low self-expectations that I realized that once you start making smart decisions, instead of stupid ones, things really start to improve. And as things improve, you get the opportunity to make even MORE smart decisions.

I understand that anything can happen to anyone -- disease, divorce, etc. -- and I am compassionate to those things. But I think that if we were all making good decisions, a lot less of that bad stuff would happen. I feel that making positive choices -- almost to an obsessive extent -- really does make your life better.

What's wrong with that?

[Quantess]

113. Of course you have to push yourself to do better.

To work harder, to do things more intelligently, and get better results.
Yes, and so what?! People in other countries also do that, and have surpassed the USA. You want to know why? Because the USA is backwards.

I can see that you have the mindset that has been corrupted by mainstream media.
The sobering fact is, NO AMOUNT OR INTENSITY OF VISUALIZATIONS will manifest in reality, in a society that does not support your visions.

Are you moving the goalpost again? What exactly, are you complaining about?

[Cats Against Frist]

118. I completely disagree with that, as I am a master manifester

the difference between me and the people around me who say, "why do you always do so well and get what you want?" is very simple: I have a positive, can-do attitude. I'm also a very quick thinker, personable and professional speaker and I'm extremely outgoing.

You might not be able to get everything you want -- but 90 percent of the things on my can-do list are attainable by able-bodied individual -- I don't measure success by whether someone is wealthy. I measure it by whether someone can take care of him or herself (industrious) and whether or not he/she is satisfied with his or her life. I also think that those who are ultra-successful are those who can give back, have educated themselves to make good consumer choices and who raise great kids.

I'm complaining because I don't think most people are supporting OWS, because they see it as a socialist movement. Socialism -- in this country -- is seen by the bulk of the populace as wanting to take away their televisions and fast cars. I think the movement is driven by socialists and anarchists and herein lies the problem. However, the socialists want to make everybody snap into shape by instilling an authoritarian leftist government, when the REAL PROBLEM is that everyone needs to get their shit together and take some responsibility. If they did -- Wall St. wouldn't stand a chance.

[Quantess]

98. Once again, WTF...

"I mean the far-left, far-left -- I am well aware of the political spectrum. I don't think that the "far" left, which is generally reserved for left-wing anarchists, pure communism, etc., is compatible with the idea of a middle class." What do you imagine the "far left" envisions, precisely?

Oh, I can guess that you imagine a "far left" person in America to be some bong-sucking twit in a Che Guevara t-shirt who throws rocks into windows. Those people are beneath you, so you don't have to agree with them. Oh, so that "far left" person doesn't look or behave like you or me, right? Wrong. I am also what could be considered "far left" in the USA.

If you could chose your words more carefully, or were a little savvier with your statements, you wouldn't have faced so much opposition and hotility. That, and you need to do your homework!

[Cats Against Frist]

99. I'm going back to 90s "far left"

I'm not speaking in terms of "far left" now. I said what I meant -- far left -- pure communism, left-wing anarchists. You're not far left. I still consider a centrist a centrist -- a combination of capitalism, progressive taxes, social safety net, regulations. I'm not the enemy because we're not speaking from exactly the same place.

I wouldn't face so much hostility if people tried to understand what I'm saying.

[Quantess]

100. Okay, that's all well and good.

So you ARE judging him on his/her choice of name. Such silliness! You seem to know that he's a pure communist, or somebody who sits around all day with a bucket of red paint waiting for somebody to show up wearing fur.

Here's a hint: you have more in common with most of us than you may think.

[Cats Against Frist]

104. I'm not judging -- to me the far left means "extreme left."

Which is communism and left-wing anarchy, anarcho-syndicalism, etc. He/she has explained that he/she is not that far left. I get it now. Not judging, still.

[FarLeftFist]

102. Uh, the FarLeft created the middle-class.

I'm 33 yrs old. My idea of American Far-Left is the New Deal, Bernie Sanders, the Labor movement and environmentalism. If you don't think those would benefit the middle-class then like I stated above, you may be blind.

Btw, I KINDA see where you're going with your OP, basically you're saying that it's our fault because we are consumers who buy these shitty products and buy into consumerism, but the thing is is that again, we didn't make the rules, we are trying to play THEIR broken economic game. Now we're trying to change the game so it benefits a larger audience, we don't want to give things up, we want to gain.

[Cats Against Frist]

105. No, the left created the middle class

The far left created the USSR. We just have a different spectrum going on. I consider what you described to be just normal left -- not extreme left.

It's OUR broken economic game -- that's what I'm trying to say.

[white_wolf]

108. No the far left did create the middle-class.

FDR wouldn't have passed his reforms if he didn't genuinely fear a socialist revolution. The socialists were a strong force in the labor movement back then and FDR feared them. That is why he managed to convince the capitalists to accept his reforms. He told them: " Reform if you would preserve."

[FarLeftFist]

141. We definitely have a different spectrum going on. I'm referring to American politics like I said.

Some countries left is right, right is left. Some countries right-wing doesn't even exist. Although I do hold many European Left views.

[Cats Against Frist]

59. I agree with that -- and that part I'm not missing

I think that this is why this is important. This isn't a referendum on the human condition or the Great Leap Forward -- the reason that the time is NOW to end corporatism is because you can't do everything right and get ahead. I do agree that the system is gamed. I think it's critical and threatens to destroy our country. I still don't think that most people do or did everything right though -- or mostly right.

[RandomKoolzip]

46. "Cheers" was a great fucking show. Unrecced.

[HughBeaumont]

49. Sooo, PEOPLE are to blame for wanting stuff and not hoarding every dollar?

The suppression of wages in real dollars since 1979 while the cost of living skyrocketed has absolutely nothing at all to do with this current mess?

Corporations encouraging credit because they had no intentions of raising our wages doesn't ring a bell?

You think this is about tchochkes??

And you know what else? LEAVE LEGOS ALONE. My life is far better for them.

[Cats Against Frist]

53. I didn't say that

It's fascinating to see what kind of response this provokes. I never once said that the rich are not responsible, that we don't need reform, that we aren't in a Constitutional crisis or that we're not a corpo-fascist state. I said we're all partially to blame for it. And it's exactly because people want stuff.

But the flip side of it is this -- buying stuff creates jobs. People just don't buy the right stuff. Yes -- it is a problem. And, yes -- I hate LEGOs.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yavin4]

51. From The ESPN Documentary, "Catching Hell". Go to the 12:35 Mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2Km2XItu4M

Continues into this part:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7a2IWKaOI

Very interesting.

[Cats Against Frist]

58. Oh, that's fantastic. :) -- "The sins of the people"

Thank you for thinking.

:applause:

[Pithlet]

54. What a steaming load. n/t

[drokhole]

71. Self-reflection is key for this to stick...

"Revolt is of two kinds: there is violent revolt, which is mere reaction, without understanding, against the existing order; and there is the deep psychological revolt of intelligence. There are many who revolt against the established orthodoxies only to fall into a new orthodoxies, further illusions and concealed self-indulgences. What generally happens is that we break away from one group or set of ideals and join another group, take up other ideals, thus creating a new pattern of thought against which we will again have to revolt. Reaction only breeds opposition, and reform needs further reform.

But there is an intelligent revolt which is not reaction, and which comes with self-knowledge through the awareness of one's own thought and feeling. It is only when we face experience as it comes and do not avoid disturbance that we keep intelligence highly awakened; and intelligence highly awakened is intuition, which is the only true guide in life."

"This revolution has to begin, not with theory and ideation, which eventually prove worthless, but with a radical transformation in the mind itself."
- Jiddu Krishnamurti

This is a complex issue, clearly. And, in order to expect a radical transformation in the world, we must first foster a radical transformation within the way we approach it. Otherwise, we'll simply fall into the same traps, and someone else will exploit their way to the top of a corrupt system. I actually just watched an excellent video today (linked by someone on DU) that this OP reminded me of, specifically with its call for heightened awareness in the way or society/economy functions:

The Story of Stuff

"We are each one of us responsible for every war because of the aggressiveness of our own lives, because of our nationalism, our selfishness, our gods, our prejudices, our ideals, all of which divide us. And only when we realize, not intellectually but actually, as actually as we would recognise that we are hungry or in pain, that you and I are responsible for all this existing chaos, for all the misery throughout the entire world because we have contributed to it in our daily lives and are part of this monstrous society with its wars, divisions, its ugliness, brutality and greed - only then will we act."
- Jiddu Krishnamurti

[MadHound]

73. Wow, I don't know where to begin with this,

Whether your callous attitude of blaming the victim, or your complete and utter lack of historical knowledge and context.

My suggestion, go do some research, educate yourself, then get back to us.

[Cats Against Frist]

76. I'm sorry -- I already have

I've listed my reading list and credentials before, and it's tiring.

If you have an opinion, why don't you speak to the topic at hand.

[MadHound]

87. "Your reading list and credentials," LOL

Ooo, boy, you read Zinn, and probably some Chomsky and think that you're an expert, that you're knowledgeable, fluent in History:rofl:

Your credentials portray a person who is indeed, as you describe yourself, an elitist. You conflate the poor with socialism("I don't like socialism, because I don't hold illusions that the poor are somehow noble because they are poor,"), thus showing you have absolutely no clue about either economics or political science. You favor private education over public education. You are well off, affluent even, yet dare to damn the poor for their decisions. You have never been poor, you've never known that kind of desperation, that kind of despair, yet put yourself on a pedestal of being judge, jury and executioner of the poor.

How dare you! How dare you damn others from the comfort of your cozy little insulated bubble. How dare you sit in judgment of people that live lives that are far different from your own, where there everyday decisions become huge matters of life and death, and where yes, eating out at McDonald's is considered to be a treat.

You work to "be more fabulous" everyday, yet millions simply work towards living another day. They beat their heads against the wall every single day trying to claw their way up the socio-economic ladder, only to find themselves facing increasingly insurmountable obstacles and scolding, moralistic harpies like yourself damning them every inch of the way.

Your lack of knowledge is galling, appalling, but not terribly surprising given our society in these times. Your lack of empathy and sympathy is however. Ooo, you got shunned in fourth grade, big fucking whoop. Try getting shunned every single day of your life.

And just for your edification and education, I've got degrees in History, Secondary and Elementary Education. I was born into a lower middle class family, was homeless for two years, poor for many more, and gradually battled my way up to a comfortable middle class life right now. I've seen the world from such a wide variety of perspectives that your head would spin, and you know what? I've found more empathy and sympathy among the poor and downtrodden than was ever dreamed of amongst the scolding "elitists" of your ilk. I've found more knowledge about life, history, our society, our economy on certain street corners than among "educators" of your stripe.

I find you and your "elitist" scolding reminiscent of the Puritans or the WCTU. Your knowledge is all on the surface, your morals are those of the elite. You are the bile of society, you are truly part of the problem. I feel no need to speak with such as you about the "topic at hand" for it would be non-productive. You have no wish to be educated, or have your opinion swayed. You have no wish to have your comfy little bubble life challenged in any sort of way.

The best thing that could happen to you is for you to lose everything, to be tossed amongst the rest of those on society's refuse heap. Then perhaps you would wake up, learn some those tough lessons, and let your soul bloom. Until that happens, you are going to live a mean, little self righteous life. Good day.

[white_wolf]

89. +1,000,000.

[Cats Against Frist]

93. My reading list and my experience go far beyond what you credit me for

How could you assume anything about me from my belief system? I have the belief system that I have BECAUSE I came from a lower-middle-class family. I have the belief system that I have because I've been homeless, poor with a child, and fucked up a big part of my life. I've live in a socialist country and I used to be as red as any socialist on this board.

I changed when I realized that not ONE MINUTE that I was poor or homeless or whatever, that I wasn't doing these things to myself. I was with an alcoholic -- strike one, surround yourself with better people. I was very out of shape, didn't take showers or take care of myself or my home -- strike two, I was a total slob. I did not work because I was *lazy* and thought that I was too good for work. I had no ambitions because I believed that a) it was society's job to take care of everyone and b) I didn't have the credentials to get a job in my field. Strike three and four -- I was a lazy idiot and I didn't take advantage of what I needed to do in college to get the right internship or job experience because I was smoking pot and waxing romantic about the Cultural Revolution. Strike six -- I spent what could have been the most energetic years of my young life as a whiny alternakid.

I have a degree in political science -- my concentrations were Latin American politics, identity politics and American government. I wanted to be a magazine reporter, a union organizer.

I have written in this thread a million times about what I am, and in no way do I fit the sterotype of what you've written. How can I possibly be the bile of society? I'm conscientious, I vote, I work, I write, I take care of my kids, I give, I pay my taxes and I'm staunchly loyal to the Constitution of the United States of America.

I am an elitist in the sense that I root for excellence. I believe everyone should be out there kicking ass and trying to be the best people that they can be -- for both themselves and the larger world around them. Do you not know anyone? I find it hard to believe if you're hanging around street corners that you have never met folks who totally let their low self-expectations, pessimism and can't-do attitude rule their lives. Do you not read the stories they post here about people beating their kids and locking them in closets and all the other fucked up stuff that people do? Do you not have any friends or relatives who you've ever been like "that was a bonehead move?"

I think that you're the naiive one, and it's some kind of twisted shit when a person who wants to do the best she can is the bile of society. I draw the line at sympathizing with general human traits like greed, laziness, apathy and entitlement. I don't care if it's coming from the one percent, or the 99 percent. I think that we, as people, can do better, that we're autonomous, that we're responsible for what we've turned this country into and that yes -- we can get out of it. But not if people stick their heads in the sand and doing the same crap that made the ultra rich be able to buy and sell us all in the first place.

Don't you think we can do better?

[MadHound]

128. An interesting statistic that makes my case.

In your reply, you used the word "I" seven percent of the time. Forty three uses of that word out of a total of 613.

Self centered much?

Good night.

[RagAss]

81. Go read a book....Any book !

[Cats Against Frist]

84. I've read a lot of books. Geesh.

I have a degree in political science for fuck's sake. I've been there, done that, been a young socialist, voted Dem all my life -- if you have an opinion on the merits, please post it.

[RagAss]

85. Here's my opinion....

1. Your precious 1 percent stole my fucking pension !
2. You must be from money !
3. Off to my Ignore List !

[Cats Against Frist]

86. My dad was a union coal miner, my grandma lived in a trailer court

Does that help? I'm in nowhere near the 1 percent. Top 25 percent, maybe. But only in income. In assets, I'm in probably the lower ten percent.

[PETRUS]

90. There's a grain of truth in that

But it ignores the fact that the will of the people has been repeatedly subverted. If you examine policy and ask the basic question "who benefits?" and realize that following deregulation and war the wealth of the top 1% has skyrocketed from 10% of the nation's total to 40%, it's reasonable to conclude that they are running the show. Polls reveal time after time that super-majorities (2/3 or more) of the American people are opposed to various government actions that continue unabated. Even the most "free" person is bound by circumstance. Our options have been shaped by the 1%.

It's time to refuse our cooperation in a coordinated fashion. That is our best hope.

[Cats Against Frist]

94. I completely agree.

The way to fix it is to refuse to cooperate. To really refuse to cooperate. That means to change your life and your lifestyle and get shit done. It's on all of us.

[PETRUS]

96. True

But it needs to be organized and coordinated. The "personal choice" thing gets us nowhere. If everyone refused to get on an airplane or refused to move goods on trucks and rail? That might work.

[marions ghost]

110. "the personal choice thing gets us nowhere"

:thumbsup: right

[marions ghost]

109. +++++

"Our options have been shaped by the 1%"

Absolutely.

[Cats Against Frist]

125. Do you really feel you are that powerless?

[marions ghost]

158. Yes

as a liberal I feel I have no political power and am not represented in government at any level. I don't feel the government works for the average consumer, but solely for corporate interests. Any average person who believes in the hijacked American system as we see it today is seriously delusional IMO --there are still a lot of people (Dem or R) who can't let go of that comforting illusion, not yet willing to call it a complete failure. Usually these people have young kids and their hopes for their kids prevents them from accepting the truth. But they are not doing young ones a favor, raising them in an insulated "safe" environment that does not prepare them for a very harsh situation when they get older.

The government and PTB do not have me or the people I care about, or the environment I care about, in mind. Because the government does nothing for me, I am not inclined to trust anything the government touches. It affects the way I feel about the local community. Because of the corruption I have seen at local level (amazing amounts, unspeakable amounts) I don't want to participate in any local community things, although I have done it in the past and would still be interested and am good at organizing. But it's just too hard. A lifetime of battling uphill gets very old. I finally accept that under Rethug rule, "you can't fight City Hall." It is crushing to live with that.

Sites like DU and other liberal sites are the only places in this country that I feel connected to, where there are people who think like me. It's a refuge, a ghetto, right now--but I am hoping it can turn into a snowball rolling downhill, gaining traction. We have been "kettled" psychologically before kettling in the streets. That is why I am so supportive of the OWS movement. OWS is an ironic, symbolic title--it is much bigger than that. It is "Occupy America." These protestors (in Wisconsin, DC, NYC, where ever) are the heroes of the 21st century. The Declaration of Grievances
they came up with stand as a testimonial to everything we have endured under this tyranny parading as democracy.

I hope this helps you and others understand. :shrug:

[TK421]

111. What is wrong with cream of mushroom soup?

edited to add: the stuff is tasty, and I use it all the time when I make chicken! Actually, I also use cream of chicken and a can of chicken and rice and let the mixture baste with the chicken...it's quite good! You should try that...

Oops..I just let out a secret to some dinner parties here...why am I typing this? Won't others find out the truth? Oh, shit! I don't know when to stop!

edited to add: uh, since I went and disclosed that info, it would be wrong for me to not post the recipe for this! Wouldn't it? I mean, I have no intention of taking this to the Cooking and Baking Forum now, do I? I don't have death-wish, people.....maybe I do..

Do I?

2-3 chicken breasts ( this will cover either )
1 can Campbells cream of chicken soup
1 can Campbells chicken and rice soup
1/2 can milk ( whole, preferably )
1 tbsp butter or margarine or whatever the fuck you people use these days.........
1/2 teaspoon black pepper
1/2 teaspoon celery seed ( optional, I like it though )
salt N/A if you need more salt after all of the sodium from these soups provide, you might want to see a doctor about a certain disorder.

In a soup pot, combine the cream of chicken WITH the chicken and rice and add the 1/2 can of milk and butter while cooking. In a frying pan, brown the chicken breasts until the fuckers are done cooking. If you don't know when they are done cooking, I can't fucking help you.
Set the chicken aside, and when the cream of chicken and rice is done cooking, just add it to the chicken you just got done burning in the frying pan and let it simmer for about 20-25 minutes. I like to add steamed broccoli to this, but you might be feeling a bit lazy to do that.

[Pithlet]

126. It's not the soup of positive, can do people, who are fabulous, that's what's wrong with it.

It's the soup of the losers who belong in the 99%, that's what. I wonder where tomato soup falls on the loser/fabulosity scale? What else can you have with grilled cheese?I

[TK421]

131. What else with grilled cheese? NOTHING but tomato soup, that is a given

no contest, sir, no contest...it would be my last meal on Earth if given that choice

eh, if you add bacon to that....

[Cats Against Frist]

134. I make homemade soup from split peas and ham hocks

or vegetable soup, or chicken soup from scratch. I guarantee that that's cheaper -- and a whole lot better for you than cream of mushroom in a can.

[Pithlet]

138. Goody for you.

I don't support political belief systems that would plunge our country into 3rd world status.

[Cats Against Frist]

140. What the hell are you talking about?

Because I want someone to get up in the morning and take charge of his or her life, and do good and make good decisions and have a positive attitude, I do absolutely not want us to plunge into third-world status!

Name one thing that I have advocated that would plunge us into third-world status?

[Pithlet]

143. Your posts further up about not wanting to pay for anything but fire and police. n/t

[Cats Against Frist]

145. Sorry -- you have misread me

I did not say that that was the only thing that I wanted to pay for -- I also wrote that I support a modest safety net so that people don't suffer, higher taxes on the very wealthy, single-payer health care, social security -- lots of other things, but maybe not on the federal level. I would also support the nationalization of natural resources. E-GAD I'm nearly a communist!!!!!!!

[Pithlet]

147. All states have a balanced budget requirement

So when times are bad and the safety net is needed, states are required to cut back. Making the safety net state based is just another way of getting rid of it.

[Cats Against Frist]

151. That, on its face, does not mean that the safety net will get cut

If the same assholes (us) would lower our own pork projects, pet projects, salaries, pensions and waste, and prioritize a meager social safety net -- we would do OK. I think that should come before a lot of the other bullshit.

[Pithlet]

152. How do you figure? Where's the money going to come from?

It's pie in the sky to pretend that some day state governents will always balance their budgets. Times get tough. Recessions happen. Leave it on the backs of the states alone, and the nets disappear.

[Cats Against Frist]

154. I think Social Security should be federal

but I do think that single-payer healthcare could be a state issue. I like the idea of states' rights, because I'm not particularly a loyal devotee of the "big country" mindset and I dream of a day when I would not have to listen to Republicans about anything. That said, I will say it again -- I am not, not, not a social engineer. While I don't want people to suffer, I don't really think that anyone "deserves" much more than that. So, for me, I'd be against cushy pensions (of which my mother has one), but definitely for public dormitories, staffed by the people who live there with good heat and healthy food. If I were running things, I'd put that at the front of the line. It just depends on where your priorities are. If there was a recession, you have to cut back -- but that doesn't mean the very poor HAVE to be cut back first. It should be the opposite, right?

[Pithlet]

156. Why does deserve have to have anything to do with it?

What is so wrong with countries that have better standards of living than ours? Why is that so horrible? Oh, a pension! Quell horreur! Wow, a world where if you work hard you actually have a decent life. You know, I would think a positive, can do kind of person would appreciate that. It makes no sense. ETA I'm sorry you keep accusing me of calling you a right winger. But you spout right wing talking points out of one side of your mouth, while claiming to hate what they have to say out of the other. YOu make no sense.

[Cats Against Frist]

135. I'm the 99 percent, hello

And why don't you want to be fabulous?

[Pithlet]

136. You are.

But at least I believe in education for everyone, no matter what circumstances they were born into. And "forced diversity". I believe that puts me just a little further up on the fabulous scale.

[Cats Against Frist]

139. My son has been taught nothing in the public school in 6 years

I went up through the public school system and public universities and they pretty much suck, too. There's nothing worse than a teacher with job security. Race. to. the. bottom.

[Pithlet]

142. Wow, so obviously, your son's bad experience means get rid of public school so no one has access.

Makes total sense.

[Cats Against Frist]

146. My son's bad experience

is due to the fact that they have to teach the lowest common denominator. My son is in the 97 percentile in reading and the 90 percentile in math. Not a genius -- but certainly not stupid. He is already enrolled in a grade higher than his age group, and they won't let him move up because he's already so young and his math score is not over 97 percent. So he just sits in class getting stupider.

I'm not totally against public schools, but I am all for creative solutions to our education problem -- and I am for private school vouchers. Remember, I'm not in the one percent and can't pay for private school -- but if I had a voucher, I might be able to get him into a private school. Fortunately, the schools are so bad that I can let him cool his heels during "babysitting" time at the public school and teach him everything he needs to know for grade-level during the summer.

[Pithlet]

148. If your creative solutions in any way involve taking funding away

Then we're at extreme cross purposes there, too.

[Cats Against Frist]

149. I don't think it's about necessarily taking funding away from schools

I'm a huge fan of education -- but I'm very much of the "time tests and flash-cards" variety and the touchy-feely math that they've taken to teaching my son, I kind of consider treasonous. So I do think that there is a LOT of accountability that needs to be looked at. I believe in a lot of cuts to a lot of things, but education isn't one of them -- like I said, though -- I believe in vouchers and charter schools, so if that's considered taking money away, then maybe I am.

[Pithlet]

150. Vouchers takes funding away from public schools

So a no on that one. The math thing I'm with you on. I hate it, too.

[Cats Against Frist]

153. Like I said -- my own self-interest doesn't really matter

even though I'd like the choice to send my son to private school, I can teach him everything he needs to know through all grades -- except for algebra. :) I feel sorry for smart kids with not-so-bright parents, though, who have to sit in classes where the standard is to teach to the bottom 25 percent of the class. I think something needs to be done about that -- and if public schools can't fix that, then something else needs to happen.

[Pithlet]

155. First of all, talking about public schools in our country like they're a monolithic entity

doesn't even make sense. The notion that public school bad, private school good is nonsense right off the bat. There are good public school systems and bad public school systems. We do need to fix the ones that are bad. And the ones that are bad tend to be in and near economically disadvantaged areas. We don't need to fix the public schools. We need to fix the poverty problem in this country. We do that and a lot of the problems in the bad public schools would fix themselves. Vouchers only serve a very small portion of the population, they still leave a lot of students languishing, and they suck even more much needed funding out of the schools.

[Xicano]

112. Your argument sounds like someone blaming the victim of assault for being drunk.

n/t

[Whiskeytide]

120. Maybe.... but.....

.... It almost sounds more like she's blaming the drunk for getting drunk, not the actual assault - which could be a defensible position under certain circumstances. What she fails to see, perhaps, is that in this case, the victim was really slipped a roofie, and that changes the game considerably.

I certainly don't agree with everything the OP concludes, but there is little doubt that we, the people, collectively went to sleep and left our chickens to fend off the coyotes by themselves. Now, the chickens are all dead, and we have awoken and said "damn those coyotes for taking advantage of us while we were asleep". That's not unfounded or unreasonable anger directed at those dirty, shifty coyote scum. But it glosses over the fact that we went to sleep - a key ingredient in the coyotes' success.

A lot of the vitriol heaped upon the OP has come from individuals who are saying "I didn't go to sleep, so don't blame me". I agree. This is not the fault of any one of us individually. But as a group we have failed to zealously guard our rights and liberties, and we did, to a large extent, tacitly acquiesce to our own collective fate. Maybe that's not what she was saying, but if it was, she's not entirely wrong.

[Cats Against Frist]

123. THANK YOU

My own personal opinions aside, which don't really even matter much -- the point that I'm trying to make is exactly what you just said. I don't think the posters, however, are saying that they are not asleep -- they're saying that it doesn't matter if they or whoever else, was. I think it DOES matter and to get to a new human consciousness of positive change, this has to be accepted. Exactly like your analogy "My name is the American people and I'm a consumerholic."

The sleep part goes hand-in-hand with the consumption part. We haven't stewarded our democracy well. This is why it is threatened. This is why we're at a crisis. And I honestly believe that if WE changed OUR actions, Wall St., wouldn't have a pot to piss in.

[Cats Against Frist]

121. That's a bad analogy

I would say that it's more like I'm arguing that a drunk child molester and murderer has been assaulted.

[Pithlet]

133. Oh, that argument is MUCH better... n/t

[nomorenomore08]

132. +1

I couldn't think of how to word my response, but you did it for me...

[Honeycombe8]

122. I don't agree. It's like saying, "We're addicted to oil." No, we're not.

I, for one, am not addicted to oil.

I live in a society that is created around oil. I cannot survive without it. If I had my way, I would create a society that revolves around green energy. But I didn't create society, so don't blame me for its failings.

INVESTORS get rich by buying and selling stocks, and doing other complicated things. They don't sell goods or services.

MOST of the largest corporations in the world are oil & gas corporations. They don't sell twinkies.

As for the rest, there is nothing wrong with being rich. It's the tax subsidies (which come out of your and my pockets), and the unethical, uncaring things they do (greed) to keep and increase their wealth which makes them dangerous. Even now, we see them decrying a 4% increase in taxes, even though they have prospered more than any other segment in our society in the last few decades, while the middle class have seen their purchasing power DECLINE in the same time period. Greed. To act as if 39% tax rate (which they don't pay, BTW, after deductions) is a harship is criminal.

The fat and soft people that you speak of...that has a lot to do with the cost of healthcare, I'll grant you that. But healthcare providers are not the biggest and richest entities in the country. The protesters aren't protesting in front of Mayo Clinic.

[Cats Against Frist]

124. I agree with you that that oil and gas are the problem

and I support both green energy and, if part of a larger package where I got some personal responsibility stuff engraved in stone, I would even support the nationalization of the gas and oil resources of the U.S. How's that for a "right-winger?" :)

[Honeycombe8]

130. Now if only Washington could come together & find what they AGREE on! nt

[RegieRocker]

127. You're close but no cigar.

Nothing will ever change until everyone realizes that they give them the power and they can take it back. End of story.

[Cats Against Frist]

144. I totally agree -- but no one here is willing to accept that the way to take

it back is to live better.

[A HERETIC I AM]

157. Without having even read it yet....

I just KNOW this is going to be a fun thread.



All the best,


Paul.