At least the Greeks understand what works. Nationwide Strike

[RegieRocker]

Greek riot police have fired teargas at petrol bomb throwing youths and charged them wielding batons as 10,000 public sector workers marched to protest against budget cuts and high taxes.

The country is today in the grip of a 24-hour national strike which has seen flights grounded, schools shut and people on the streets trying to storm the Athens parliament of its bankrupt government.

Violence broke out as anarchists mixed with the marchers and started attacking more than 1,000 police with any weapons they could find.

Read more
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045628/Greece-strike-Debt-ridden-country-starts-24-hour-walkout.html

[valerief]

1. You'd never know it from US media. nt

[customerserviceguy]

2. Well, that should dry up tourism

What else has Greece got to make money to pay their debts with? I know a lot of people here figure that if a majority of Greeks simply flip the bird at the European banks, all will be well, but they're not the ones whose country will envy Albania.

[RegieRocker]

3. Tourism contribution to the GDP is estimated up to 8%

Big F'n deal. They are fighting for much more important issues than you having a place to go on vacation.

Before you ask
http://www.athensguide.com/practicalinfo/tourismstatistics.htm

[customerserviceguy]

4. Ok, then I guess Greece will be just fine without tourism

Because that's what's going to happen. Not a lot of people visit Albania, either.

[RegieRocker]

5. If they get their government back things will be much better.

Nothing is forever. Tourism will thrive someday once again don't worry.

[customerserviceguy]

6. Ok, what does "get their government back"

do for the debts that Greece has built up? If your answer is "Negate it," then nobody will ever sell anything on credit to either Greece or any Greek firms. They'll have to be solely self-sufficient in absolutely everything they need.

They will no longer enjoy a First World standard of living, and while that may not be forever, it will seem like it to people stuck there.

[RegieRocker]

7. I gues you haven't heard that they might default?

Read this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9550667.stm

[customerserviceguy]

8. Yes, I certainly have

Right now, the 1%'ers are trying to play that down, to create a sucker rally so that the richites can dump their stocks on the part of the 99%'ers who like to own stocks. I think that it's a greater than 50% chance that Greece will default, and take the European banking system with it.

That might look like fun to some, but the last time Lehman and AIG (and others) pulled this crap, they crashed our economy into a hole that may take us many years to get out of. It sure won't help that process if the European banks go down the crapper, too.

Maybe the Greeks need to acknowledge that living high off the hog with borrowed money from the eurozone has to come to an end, and that they need to work hard, figure out how to collect taxes, and live within their means (including being hospitable to tourists that find them suddenly a cheap place to visit) to get out of this without severely impoverishing their people.

Fritz, Henri, and Hans are not going to want to work to 75 so that Zorba can retire at 55 any more.

[RegieRocker]

9. Iceland seems to be doing ok.

[tama]

27. People of Iceland

succeeded in refusing to pay for greedy Englishmen and Dutch, but they still need jubileum to get rid of suffocating debt of ordinary people.

[hack89]

40. Sure - after painful austerity measures and significant tax hikes

It remains to be seen whether Greece is willing to take the same measures. It also helps that in Iceland, they are willing to pay their taxes.

[tama]

26. Fuck that meme

"Fritz, Henri, and Hans are not going to want to work to 75 so that Zorba can retire at 55 any more."

That's just a bunch of divide and conquer Mass media propaganda lies. Let's stop repeating it. We the people are together in this rEvolution.

[customerserviceguy]

32. I'm with the Greek people

but only if they want to start taking responsibility for earning a living, and not sucking off the European teat. Northern Europe seems to be sick of that, too.

It's like threatening to kick out your roommate who's not paying his share of the rent, not doing his share of the housework, and eating all the food in the refrigerator. You and your fellow roommates want to vote to kick him out in the street, but you're not sure if he's going to come back and set your house on fire for doing so.

[girl gone mad]

36. You are ill-informed on this topic.

The cause of Greece's current troubles has nothing to do with tax avoidance, pensions or public sector spending. These factors have remained little changed over several decades. What did change was Greece's entry into the EMU and the adoption of a punishing exchange rate which gave a huge trade advantage to their partners (Germany, in particular), and the global financial crisis, which led to a massive decline in export revenue. Without sovereignty over its currency, Greece is helpless to combat debt deleveraging since it cannot stimulate its own economy the way America, Japan and other economically sovereign countries can.

[tama]

38. What girl gone mad said and...

And, I live in Northern Europe and I have lived in Greece - and I have lived in communities and I know by first hand that relearning the communal way of living is long process. Greek people work hard, but the governement is extremely corrupted, as it is everywhere. Representative party politics system is inherently corrupt and getting only worse.

Where I live we have been exposed to the same nationalistic propaganda you spout, but every day more and more people understand this is not about nationalism but global financial system aka "banksters". European governements lend from private banks to fund the IMF which keeps asking more and more and to Greece, Portugal, Ireland - Spain, Italy and Belgia and who not next in line, so that they can keep on paying more and more interests to private banks. It's all scam from the beginning, debt bubble bursting in this age of meeting the limits of growth that Club of Rome correctly predicted few decades ago. Banks can make profit and survive only if the total amount of debt keeps on growing - and it can't.

Here in Northern Europe we are sick of bailing out banks that rob us all, sick of clueless and corrupt politicians, sick of non-democratic EU, sick of the whole goddam system. We are not sick of Greek people who just want to live their lives, contribute to the society, have food on the table, health care, etc. just like rest of us 99%.

[socialist_n_TN]

63. Well it's time for Fritz, Henri, and Hans

IF they're working class to say fuck the bankers too. If the working class takes power all over Europe, they can work together to clean up the mess the capitalist left them ALL.

[coalition_unwilling]

66. Greece's current account deficit allows Germany to run a current

account surplus. Shut down Greece's consumption of German exports and then Germany will see its economy contract. It's pretty simple really. So stop blaming this on 'lazy Greeks' or whatever slur you're currently bandying about.

"Fritz, Henri and Hans" owe their fucking jobs to Zorba's consumption of the fruits of their labor, FFS.

[girl gone mad]

10. Actually, they'll be a better credit risk after default.

[RegieRocker]

14. Shhh. That is too hard for most to grasp.

[tama]

25. Fuck First World standard of living

Greeks want live free, healthy and in peace - just like all of us - and First World standard of consumerism and environmental distruction and debt slavery is ruining us all.

[customerserviceguy]

33. It's tough to be healthy

when your hospitals cannot get medicines and medical equipment they need from other nations. But, if they want to live the carefree life that the Third World seems to be so happy with (in your opinion), then they are about to experience it.

[tama]

39. It's not about other nations

but corporate greed. Big pharma are notoriously bad and the answer is not to dance to their tune, but nationalize them or occupy otherwise. And it's not just a greedy big pharma company refusing to sell medicines to Greek hospitals, IMF and EU forced "austerity" means that ordinary Greek people can no longer afford even the national health care system fees.

The financial elites are murdering us, literally.

Do you have any better suggestion than to blame yourself and keep on taking it up the arse, blame we the 99&, when the 1% of IMF and other banksters and corporations gang rape you?

[customerserviceguy]

56. You can only nationalize something that's in your country

I don't know how much of Greece's medicines and medical equipment it can manufacture without imports from other nations, but I suspect we're about to find out.

The only rational solution I can offer the Greek people is to figure out how to produce more, consume less, and pay off their debts, knowing that it is the price they must pay for the sums they borrowed. If they default, the banks are going to take it up their backside as well, and they're not going to be too terribly friendly when it comes time to lend more.

The only reason the financial elites have got any of us by the short hairs is that we let them get into that position.

[tama]

57. I agree

that producing more locally and susteinably and consuming less are rational solutions not just for Greeks but for all of us.

Paying of the debts is not rational advice, Greece cannot do it anymore than US can do it, no nation can do it.
"Fear the banks" is certainly not rational advice, banks need us to survive but we don't need them. Way of life based on debt is not very rational. The fearmongering by the elites is based on the threat that if Greece defaults, the whole global banking system falls. Let's call their bluff, and if it falls and it is the end of capitalism as we know it - isn't that what we want?

[customerserviceguy]

61. Well, I don't want the end of capitalism

However, "capitalism as we know it" can be taken to mean crony capitalism, and the merging of the political culture with the military-industrial complex, so I do believe I'm with you on that, if we can agree on definitions.

Living off of locally mined, farmed and produced goods is a laudable goal, but with the distribution of climates, soils, and mineral deposits being very unequal throughout the world, trade to get what you don't have is inevitable for most peoples and nations. It's very, very difficult for a country that has an illiquid currency to acquire the things it simply cannot produce domestically.

Right now, the Greeks are in the eurozone, they nominally have the ability to obtain the things they need, but it's seriously in doubt if they can continue being able to buy what they absolutely need. If they get kicked out of the euro, and reinstate the drachma, then inflate the hell out of it to nominally attempt to get out of their debts, they'll be on the path to ruin. Everyday life for the average person in Greece will be seriously affected. I don't want to see that happening, but there needs to be a national will to change, to figure out how to stay in the house with the roommates, and that requires not only doing their share, but paying back what they owe.

We cannot have the whole world saying "Screw you" to the banking system, those who run it will always have something for themselves and their families to fall back on. It's those of us who need jobs, want housing and manufactured goods, would like to see stable food commodity prices so that farmers will have the confidence and ability to continue to produce, and simply like most aspects of modern life that a well-managed debt-based economic system has provided who want to see this whole thing work out in the end.

I'm not independently wealthy, I assume you aren't either, and I'd like to see the best parts of the system I've spent my whole life with continue.

[tama]

62. Isms

Rather than support and emotionally commit to any -ism, I'm for common sense and creative thinking.

[coalition_unwilling]

64. You're conveniently forgetting or willfully ignoring the example of

Argentina which repudiated debts and forced bondholders to take a haircut about 10 years ago. Best thing Argentina ever did for itself, imho, and the principal casualty (if you can call it that) if Greece defaults will be to a bunch of bankers and their shareholders (who hold Greek debt).

[hack89]

67. The difference is that Argentina was a net exporter of agriculture products

the resulting devaluation of the peso boosted agriculture exports to record levels. Coincidentally, international demand for soy(a big crop in Argentina) spiked which also brought in a ton of money. All this money coming into the economy kept them afloat. Greece doesn't have an economy that can provide such a cushion. Argentina had a safety net - Greece does not.

[coalition_unwilling]

68. I've seen arguments that cut both ways on the issue of the Greek

domestic economy and what it would be capable of, were it to shed the Euro and return to the Drachma. One thing is certain, for every Euro that Greece 'borrows' to finance domestic consumption, a Euro is spent in Germany to produce the goods. Greek consumption thus maintains and props up German economic activity. The only beneficiaries I can see of Greek 'austerity' are banks that hold Greek debt, i.e., not the working class.

[hack89]

69. Another fundamental difference

was that Argentina still implemented austerity measures and improved tax revenue. Endemic corruption and tax evasion is and will continue to be a major drag on the Greek economy.

[FarCenter]

58. The current Greek government is the leftist Panhellenic Socialist Movement

The other major party, which is out of power, is the right wing New Democracy party.

The rest are "also rans". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Greece

[tama]

24. In many ways

Greece would be much better without mass tourism. I've lived years in Greece, and the people are sick of mass tourism, ugly hotels destroying the beaches, "developers" burning forests so they can build more ugly hotels, etc. Greeks are kind and hospitable people, but mass tourism is ruining the country.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. How does this "work"? Shutting down what little...

economic activity they have "works"?

What will they get for this strike? More real jobs? More loans they can't pay back? More no-show government jobs?

Greece has no real economy-- they don't grow shit and they don't make shit. Agriculture and manufacturing together make up about 20% of their GDP, the rest is tourism, shipping, and government. And nobody pays taxes. Rich and poor are equal that way-- nobody pays.

The country spent the last few years subsidizing its tax avoidance by borrowing at dirt cheap rates, and now the bills have to be paid. Putting it all on the backs of gardeners, clerks, and cab drivers isn't right, but who's got a good answer?

They're going down, and may get thrown out of the Eurozone and back to the drachma, andd how does rioting help when they're back on their own?

[RegieRocker]

12. You don't know what you're talking about.

Look up Greece GDP. If you took the time to read the threads tourism is 8% of GDP. Go read something and keep reading it and when you finish read some more.

[TreasonousBastard]

22. I did look it up, and around 70% is services, with 18% in tourism, which...

brings me back to the original question of just how the rioting is going to make things better when things were never that good to begin with...

[RegieRocker]

45. 8% tourism not 18%

[TreasonousBastard]

50. You're still wrong-- it's 18%, and even if it were so little, what else do they do?

[girl gone mad]

13. Get off of the Euro, get out of a shitty trade deal that their corrupt former leaders made..

get rid of the debts which can never be repaid, improve their export market.

Get their currency sovereignty back.

That is the answer for Greece.

[TreasonousBastard]

23. If only it were so easy.

[tama]

29. As Seferis said

"Opou ke na taxidhepso, i Ellada me pligonei" - where ever I travel, Greece wounds me.

"Economy" is Greek and the word means household management, taking care of home. Only stupid modern people think that economy means serving money and capital interests and spoiling our common home, this planet. "It's Greek to me", but Greeks themselves still know what the words of their language really mean.

And Greeks now their history, how foreign interests constantly destroyed their struggle for independence in 1822 (Britain, France and Russia), 1946 (Britain and US), time of Junta (US), and now getting royally fucked by the neoliberal Troika of IMF and ECB. Same'o same'o.

Rioting and occupy Syntagma square means getting ready to storm the Parliament and throw out all the corrupt politicians and creating a real democracy.

PS: 24 hour general strikes have been happening allways, they're just day of and don't have any effect in any direction.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. Thanks for that Scooby snack.

[Kennah]

15. Eventually people say, "What the fuck do we have to lose by trying?"

[provis99]

16. But it's not working.

The Greek government hasn't changed its austerity policy one iota.

[tama]

30. The more people oppose

the harder the Troika forces "austerity" - robbing all of Greece for banksters. Remember, all the "bail-out" money from foreign governements come from private banks that European governement loan from. It's just a racket and the corrupt and greedy elites do it by fear mongering.

The capitalist elites will keep on pushing and pushing until they get response of full out revolution. Decapitation of capitalism.

[white_wolf]

17. I'll say this.

If the Greeks abandon this strike after 24 hours it won't do much, because the ruling class can easily survive a day. However, if it becomes a sustained movement then they will see change.

[sam11111]

18. "Tax cuts for the rich" caused grk Debt? and all of Europe Debt too?

Parallel to here?

[tama]

31. Tax havens for the rich

is the norm everywhere. Corporations don't pay taxes, they have small Caribbean islands, Channel islands etc... why should natural persons pay taxes for debt interests of banksters when banksters and other corporate persons don't pay taxes? It's just robbery, all of it.

[jwirr]

19. This would be a great time to call a nationwide strike in support of

Occupy Wall Street and the Peace protest in DC.

[leftstreet]

20. K&R

[PETRUS]

21. K&R nt

[tama]

28. Umm... nope

They have been doing 24-hour nationwide strikes as long as I can remember. And no, they are not working, it's just a demonstration. To really make a difference there will have to be General Strike that lasts until the goal has been achieved. The consensus is growing that the goal is "Sout!", roughly translated as "out with all of the banksters and corrupt politicians".

[seabeyond]

34. i like how our protest is developing. and was thrilled seeing isreal. nt

[TBF]

35. "Violence broke out as anarchists mixed with the marchers"

Those shifty anarchists always turn up at just the right time ...

A little education:

Traditionally, an agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French for "inciting agent(s)") is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice or provoke another person to commit an illegal act. More generally, the term may refer to a person or group that seeks to discredit or harm another by provoking them to commit a wrong or rash action.

As a known tool to prevent infiltration by agents provocateurs,<1> the organizers of large or controversial assemblies may deploy and coordinate demonstration marshals, also called stewards.

United States

In the United States, the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents pose as political radicals to disrupt the activities of political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

New York City police officers were accused of acting as agents provocateurs during protests against the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City.

Denver police officers were also found to have used undercover detectives to instigate violence against police during the 2008 Democratic National Convention. This ultimately resulted in the use of pepper spray against their own infiltrating agents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

[tama]

41. Let's be honest

There is strong movement of militant anarchists in Greece, and I don't blame them for throwing molotov cocktails at the pigs and other destructive self defense tactics. They too are part of 99%.

During the 15 May movement in Greece, when the police came to clear the square and kick the people out, dogmatic pacifists formed a line of defense to protect the riot police from the tens of thousands of people who came to protect their square and gear. Eventually the mass of people broke both lines and retook the square, but it was too late as the government forces aided by dogmatic pacifists had had ample time to steel all the tents, media gear, cooking facilities etc. etc.

[blindpig]

47. They have their place....

when there ain't nothing else going on they keep stuff stirred up, a good thing.

The Greek situation is well beyond that now, now is the time of disciplined worker's solidarity and they become a counter-productive distraction.

Do these guys look 'pacifist' to you?



They ain't looking for trouble but they're ready for it.

[tama]

48. May I ask you

you support the KouKouE??? Just curious because it is usually considered a stalinist relique and traitor of working class.

[blindpig]

51. Usually considered by who?

Anarchists and sectarian commies?

Yes, I am very impressed by KKE. At another site we follow their work closely and have a member who is a member of that party, nice guy, very astute. We should have a party like that.

It seems to me that those who like to throw around the 'stalinist" appellation do a great disservice to socialism, denigrating the greatest advance in the human condition to date. Of course there were problems, it was a new thing under the sun with great external and internal pressures, which eventually lead to it's defeat. So do we just give it up? Hell no, we learn from the mistakes and experiences of those who went before.

Show me the successful revolutions of the critics, they have none.

Some people are put off by discipline, I was once one of those. But ya know what, ya gotta go with what works, so I put my predilections to the side in pursuit of the greater good because defeat of capitalism is necessary not only for justice but for survival. Mass movements absolutely require not only solidarity but discipline to succeed, it's all we got.

[tama]

52. Considered By Greeks

When I lived there and worked as translator for European parliament. Synaspismos and the Syriza felt more cool and hip, but haven't been in Greece for a while. I didn't much appreciate the KKE hysterical attitude against the 2008 uprising.

Problem with discipline is when you start imposing it on others as "more equal than others". But no problemo, comrade, the more the merrier and I like variety - the kind that respects variety.

[blindpig]

55. 'cool and hip'

Bah, social democrat accomdationists.

It is not a matter of "more equal than others", rather of presenting a solid front with no ambiguity. For example, there was an instance of the Wobblies organizing a company town in the Northeast(forget where though if you wish I can probably track it down). Things were going very well, the people in this very Catholic town were being won over enthusiastically. Then, during one of the parades which were standard for the time, an anarchist group from Boston unfurled a large banner denigrating religion and it's believers. The locals were highly offended and the effort collapsed. That's the lack of discipline I'm talking about, that was needless baiting. We may have no use for religion but that was counter-productive, one thing at a time. Not long after this some of the Wobblies leadership left to join the communist party including William Z Foster.

[tama]

59. Vestigia terrent

I presume you have read Animal Farm and are familiar with Bakunin's criticism of dictatorship of proletariat taking over the state - and history of Soviet Union (BTW checked the wikipedia of KKE, one of the former party leaders of KKE died in Siberian gulag)? And of course, history tells that also anarchists can be highly disciplined when needed - Makhno, Zapatistas etc.

But in the end, maybe it's a matter of character and personal traits, some of us are inherently anti-authoritarian, some do better as "part of solid front", we can still work together.

[SidDithers]

37. Should OWS be throwing petrol bombs?...

Is that what works?

Sid

[tama]

42. For time being

Gandhian tactics are working and I support that. But no reason to be overly dogmatic about that - Gandhi himself was not - and there may come the moment when people will physically occupy places that need to be occupied and returned to control of people, despite police actions. The moment is not now and we don't know when it will happen if it will.

In Seattle the physically blocked the access to the event for the wannabe WTO participants. That's form of restricting liberty of movement, physical self-defence of people against the murderous financial elites.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Give it time... people actually used the words general and strike

together during wisconsin... it is coming if things do not get better.

[Cid_B]

46. Works to do what?

Burn it to the ground? Then everyone can live in equal destitution?

What are they accomplishing besides sending you a warm and fuzzy?

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. They've been having strikes for the past year, and all they get is more and more austerity

[Dreamer Tatum]

53. "Works?" How the hell is anything in Greece working? nt

[Honeycombe8]

65. That's what I was wondering, too. nt

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeSwiss]

60. Been saying it for years.

- It's the ONLY way real change can ever happen: Working together, en masse.......

K&R