15% of prehistoric deaths were homicide

[mainer]

This was a shocking figure to come across, but somehow I don't doubt it. What does it say about our species? It's a reminder of how very lucky we are to be born into this era when "the state" controls our innate behavior.

"Pinker begins with studies of the causes of death in different eras and peoples. Some studies are based on skeletons found at archaeological sites; averaging their results suggests that 15 percent of prehistoric humans met a violent death at the hands of another person. Research into contemporary or recent hunter-gatherer societies yields a remarkably similarly average, while another cluster of studies of pre-state societies that include some horticulture has an even higher rate of violent death. In contrast, among state societies, the most violent appears to have been Aztec Mexico, in which 5 percent of people were killed by others. In Europe, even during the bloodiest periods — the 17th century and the first half of the 20th — deaths in war were around 3 percent. The data vindicates Hobbes’s basic insight, that without a state, life is likely to be “nasty, brutish and short.” In contrast, a state monopoly on the legitimate use of force reduces violence and makes everyone living under that monopoly better off than they would otherwise have been. Pinker calls this the “pacification process.”



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/books/review/the-better-angels-of-our-nature-by-steven-pinker-book-review.html?pagewanted=all

[valerief]

1. Homocide, cancer from industrial toxins, what's the difference? nt

[mainer]

2. There's a big difference.

Seeing your victim in the eye as you kill him implies a level of heartlessness that's inconceivable to most of us. i hope.

[valerief]

5. "Corporations are heartless people, too." Mitt Romney. nt

[Taverner]

3. Cannibalism was rife too

Especially right after the Lake Toba Volcano

[bemildred]

25. And slavery, and rape.

Enslaving the neighbors has always been very popular until quite recently. Once you have the notion of property, you also quickly find that almost all of the women and 90% of the men are property, along with everything else on the planet.

[MidwestTransplant]

4. I'm all for the 2nd amendment but this is interesting considering

the number of violent deaths in our society compared to others where there are far fewer weapons. Government doesn't have the same monopoly on the use of force in the US in the same way it does in others.

[Telly Savalas]

28. If you read the review, you'll see that Pinker identifies governments

having a monopoly on the use of force as one of the reasons violence has declined over time.

[MidwestTransplant]

31. Right and my point is that in this country government doesn't have the same

monopoly as in other countries and our murder rate is much higher than other western countries.

[Cool Logic]

6. "born into this era when "the state" controls our innate behavior."

Exactly how are they doing that?

DNA modification...?

Drugs...?

Devinne intervention...?

Supernatural powers...?

[quaker bill]

8. Law enforcement, prison, and execution.

FYI

[Cool Logic]

12. Well now, I was not aware of that the sphere of state power had expanded into the womb.

Definition of INNATE

1: existing in, belonging to, or determined by factors present in an individual from birth : native, inborn <innate behavior>
2: belonging to the essential nature of something : inherent
3: originating in or derived from the mind or the constitution of the intellect rather than from experience

[mainer]

21. "Innate" is my term, not Pinker's. So blame me.

I was trying to summarize what I gathered from the NYT article. My interpretation is that, pre-civilization, the homicide rate was 15% and I took that to mean it might be part of human nature to commit violence against each other.

[libinnyandia]

7. Big government

Under the GOP, corporations are allowed to kill, presidents start unneccesary wars and citizens can easily buy weapons capable of killing dozens of people. Let the government get out of the way!

[ThomWV]

9. 15% of the bodies found may have been murdered, but you don't find the ones that were eaten.

Hobbs never said one single thing that was worth quoting.

[mainer]

22. Even those who were victims of cannibalism leave remains.

In fact it's human remains in the New World that leads us to gather cannibalism occurred here, because of "pot" polishing and cut marks. If you can find a copy, read "Cannibals of the Canyon," an article by Douglas Preston.

[wickerwoman]

27. I remember watching a documentary

about societal collapse where they showed some island in the Mediterranean where they found childrens' bones with sawmarks on them where the meat had been cut off. They took it as evidence of cannibalism and I think it was pretty convincing.

:puke:

[cwydro]

10. Funny...

Mexico seems to be repeating history now.

[RZM]

23. Self delete. Wrong spot n/t

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. Actually, Indian tribes were pretty brutal

when it came to other tribes.

However, I'm not so sure they were any more brutal than we are. Some of the stuff the gangs do around here is pretty awful.

[Submariner]

13. True, and an interesting story

I don't have a link, but from I have read Native American tribes were okay with each other until the Spanish Conquistadors re-introduced horses to the Americas upon Columbus's landing. For 8 million years horses were extinct in our part of the world, but once the Spaniards horses got into the hands of the Indians, they could move much faster against each other and the slaughtering among tribes began.

[Odin2005]

16. Actually, the Paleo-Indians hunted native horses to extinction 10,000 years ago.

[Odin2005]

14. This is why I laugh at the romantic fools that think traditional peoples are so wonderful.

People, especially men, are inherently aggressive and need social institutions that prevent that aggression from hurting others.

[stuntcat]

15. “nasty, brutish" is the impression I'm getting over and over from present humans

over and over and over and over.
But of course we created God in our image. And lately we have technology, and we're likely to smell nice and look clean. But inside we have not evolved fast enough. There are great exceptions, I realize, some wonderful people. But the nasty, brutish members of humanity are also the greediest and most violent.
Not saying I can predict the future but please contact me in 40 years about how wrong I was, about what wonderful progress humanity's made saving itself. Seriously, I hope you can laugh at me for how wrong I was.

[MindPilot]

17. I'm reading this book right now.

Attended a lecture by Dr Pinker over the weekend. His conclusions are accurate, as Pinker points out in the first chapter, when Cain slew Able, the population was four. That made the murder rate 25%. It's gotten better--albeit slowly--since then.

Just last few decades have seen some ideas that simply did not exist even a century ago, laws against domestic abuse, gay rights, animal rights, the idea that children are not property, womens' rights.

[XemaSab]

18. This makes me wonder how many people were murderers

:shrug:

[Unvanguard]

19. No real expert in these matters, but I've been told that that's more disputed than Pinker thinks.

:shrug:

[yawnmaster]

20. rocks don't kill, people kill. Being prehistoric with no written record, it is thought...

that there was an active rock control campaign at one time, but those trying to register the rocks were killed.
The homicide rate in the "register your rock" and "1 week waiting period before owning a rock" era, actually went up.

[RZM]

24. This has been argued for quite some time

Nicholas Wade made a big splash with this in 'Before the Dawn' a few years ago. It certainly makes sense. Look at our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. They are quite violent with one another. We aren't chimps and chimps aren't humans. But we're not that far removed from one another either.

My sense is that some of the hostility to this stems from wishful thinking - the desire to believe that terrible violence is a product of civilization and the hierarchical power relationships that developed because of it. I tend to believe that the violence has always been there. Why wouldn't it? Seems natural that evolution would select for the hardiest and most ruthless groups. As time passes, it will probably select more and more for other traits. But it's still quite early. We've spent a whole lot more time wandering around with no rules at all than we have in settled communities.

[gordianot]

30. Exactly correct. We are not that different from what we call animals.

Maybe we can become more socially aware as we evolve but that would just be socialism and be class warfare against the greater tribal hierarchy.

[FarLeftFist]

26. CONSTANT STATE OF WAR.

[gordianot]

29. Humans are have always been a violent species they walk, talk, have nice thumbs and kill their own.

[libinnyandia]

32. human violence

not to mention sports like footbal and boxing