Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

When you hear people beating the Iran war drum, please remind them of these facts.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:23 PM
Original message
When you hear people beating the Iran war drum, please remind them of these facts.
Once again, people are beating the drum to go to war with Iran. I'm not going to get into discussing whether or not that beating is justified, but people need to remember a few things. Iran isn't Libya. It's not Iraq, and it's not Afghanistan. I've seen numerous discussions about Iran's "act of war" on the web today, and have been horrified to see multiple comments by people who think that we should just invade and be done with them "once and for all." People are incorrectly assuming that war with Iran will be a cakewalk, looking something like our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (which, 10 years later, are still clusterf***s that are killing people daily).

Here are a few facts for the hawks:

1) Physically, Iran covers about 640,000 square miles of land. That is 30% larger than Iraq and Afghanistan COMBINED. It's four times the size of the Germany we went to war with in WW2. In fact, it's the size of modern Germany, France, Spain, and Portugal combined, and would easily be the largest nation we've made war with in 150 years.

2) With over 75 million people, the population of Iran is larger than that of Iraq and Afghanistan combined. It's also larger than the combined population of Germany and Japan in WW2.

3) Unlike Iraq, Libya, or Afghanistan, Iran has a domestic defense industry and is a net exporter of weapons, supplying arms to over 50 countries. While they may be considerably behind us in aerospace, their conventional ground forces are well armed and are capable of resupplying themselves domestically. They supply their own oil, iron, and other raw materials needed to keep their military operational. They also possess cruise missiles capable of hitting precise targets at a distance, and anti-aircraft missiles capable of downing modern fighters. Unlike many of the resource limited nations we've been fighting recently, Iran's military isn't entirely comprised of Russian hand-me-downs.

4) Unlike Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, the Iranian government still enjoys broad support of a substantial portion of its population across the country, and especially in more rural areas. Recent protests demonstrate that the support isn't universal, and there is a fairly large movement to democratize the country, but support for an actual overthrow is still fairly small and there is NO organized armed resistance in the country.

5) Unlike Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan, Iran is a fairly modern country technologically, with cell-phones, cameras, and Internet access available to most of the population. War against that country would result in a constant barrage of videos showing the daily suffering and "collateral damage" suffered by average Iranians, and could be a PR nightmare for the United States.


Please don't let our past few relatively bloodless wars fool you. An open war with Iran would require a military mobilization on a scale unseen in this country in many decades, and could easily result in an American death toll unseen in generations.

I don't support the Iranian government and would like to see the people of Iran rise up and replace it with something more free and open, but this idea that we can "easily" invade them and "impose freedom" isn't simply delusional, but could lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of American soldiers. I have no doubt that we would EVENTUALLY win, but how many thousands of American soldiers are we willing to bury in order to achieve that victory?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. All very good points - but, there is zero evidence this was an official act.
The Neocons are making hay over what appears to have been another in string of US intelligence agency "sting" operations that involved the use of provocateurs that netted one or two low-level operatives or accused terrorist wannabes who would otherwise never have had the opportunity to act on their individual hatreds.

This is another "underwear bomber" case. Nobody was talking about war with Nigeria, and for good reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm not so sure that this whole act is'nt meant to set up an attack by
Israel on Iran. Supposedly the window to attack Iran was set for October by Israel (read in a post here on DU a few weeks back).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not impossible, but there has been provocative rhetoric about an Israeli attack
Edited on Wed Oct-12-11 02:43 PM by leveymg
for the last ten years. This, I believe, is just another provocation intended to ratchet up tensions even further in the hope that Iran really does get prodded into doing something stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yooperman Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Agreed.... Israel has been itching for a war with Iran for years...
I have stated in the past that the U.S. wouldn't attack Iran ...however, we could be drawn into a war between Israel and Iran since we give Israel blind support in all they do.

YM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent post... If the US is crazy enough to start a war like this, we are
truly screwed. I don't understand why our politicians think that other countries won't get involved in this. Russia, China, and a host of other nations will probably not just stand by for this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Not to mention that it would confirm to Muslims all over the world that the
US has declared war on their religion. It could effectively heal the divisions between Shia and Sunni, as they would have a common enemy in US.

War on a nation of 29 million - afghanistan - or 31 million - Iraq - or even 85 million - Iran - is nothing compared to a war on 1.97 BILLION Muslims.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. YES.
because of 'our' technology 'we' would win. But at what price?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. 6) They haven't done a damn thing to us (nor credibly threatened to)
The green movement thanks us for our support, but the overwhelming sentiment is 'butt out'. I couldn't agree more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. No, that one is not true.
Edited on Wed Oct-12-11 06:19 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
Iran has done a great deal to support and encourage attacks on both Americans and Iraqis in Iraq.

The reasons against going to war with Iraq laid out in the OP are all good ones. "They haven't done anything to us" is not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. And we had no business being in Iraq in the first place.
So what is your point? We are just as guilty of 'collateral damage' in that country as anyone is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. True, but a completely different claim to your first one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. Iran has also been taking part in war games with China and Russia for years now.
China has huge oil contracts with Iran. An attack on Iran would be a catastrophe. I don't understand how they can just keep bringing it up every few years, like they're talking about the weather.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
8. War with Iran would polarize other countries against us. This better not be more of those
"Us against the Muslims" assholes hiding in positions of power hoping for another Crusade. They'll be the death of us all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here's some more facts
The majority of Iranians are under 30-years-old.

Iran has not attacked another sovereign country

If Iran wants to change it's leaders and policies it will happen in Iran, not Washington D.C.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Very good points! We should leave them the hell alone. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. I think the Safavid dynasty conquered some adjacent areas that are not
--now part of Iran. That was a couple of hundred years ago, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lint Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. The war mongers, chicken hawks and war contractors are salivating.
Pavlov's Dogs of War hear bells ringing. Ching, ching.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. The only reason for the US to go to war with Iran...

is to be able to control their oil. This has been planned by neocons for decades. The oil companies should be forced to fund their own wars and leave the US out of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. The real Iranian threat
They are among the largest countries in the Middle East, and they don't have an imperial American boot on their necks. To an empire, unconquered countries are the biggest "threats."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. Attacking Iran would not be consistent with current US policy
When Saudi Arabia and Pakistan combined to attack us on 9-11, we responded by attacking Iraq and Afghanistan. So, following that logic, if Iran was to attack us, we would have to respond by attacking Poland or at least Bosnia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. LOL, that's true enough to be unsettling as well as funny. Might not be us. Might be Israel that..
...does the attacking. Israel has been doing everything they can to get the world to accept a strike on Iran and the world would have nothing of it. I still don't think Israel would quite go there but Netanyahu is just crazy enough to do it. And America, just crazy enough to help try to defuse the resulting international outrage at such an act.

PB
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. but the military industrial complex needs to feed their children!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. They are apparently dependant on imported lamb from Australia and New Zealand.
Why not target that market?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I just looked it up...
While Iran does import food, they are fairly self-sufficient when it comes to food production. If we cut off their lamb supply, they'd eat less lamb, but they wouldn't starve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. War with Iran=Death to America, imo. I mean it would finish us off as
AMERICA. We might hang on to america. But I doubt it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. Point number 2 is incorrect
By quite a bit. The population of Japan during WWII was around 72,000,000. That of Germany around 87,000,000.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. You're correct, mostly.
That's what I get for Googling in a hurry. When I googled the WW2 population of Germany, the result I grabbed was the 1945 population of East Germany, which was only about 18 million people. The official population in all of Germany, including Danzig, was actually 69.8 million in 1939. The population of Japan was 71 million in 1939. It would have been accurate to say that the population of modern Iran is roughly equal to that of Japan or Germany during WW2.

By the way, there are discrepancies in the population based on who you do and don't count. Some Japanese population numbers include the populations of Korea, Manchuko, and other parts of the Japanese empire that had been annexed to Japan. Other numbers don't. The 72 million number should only include those who only exist on the islands of Japan itself. Similarly, some of the German numbers floating around include the Sudetenland and other areas annexed by Germany. Because borders were shifting rapidly, it's hard to pin down exact population numbers. Either way, you're right...my numbers in #2 were way off.

The basic point remains though. Look how many soldiers it took to kick Germany's arse in WW2. Iran has at least the same number of people, a higher percentage of which are actually fighting age. Compared to the measly 28 million in Afghanistan, Iran is huge, and would be a far more massive fight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellowwood Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-12-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
23. Please Pay Attention!
Don't let the neocons win again!

This kind of episode can get us into a military confrontation before we even understand that we were scammed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluebuzzard Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
28. another reason/threat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
29. Xithras, I agree with all but 2 things:
1.)The majority of those who matter(i.e. politically active people) almost certainly despise the mullahs by now.
2.)When you say technologically modern, do you mean the neo-fascist agitprop org calling themselves 'PressTV'?

Other than that........I think we're on the same page. And I sure as hell DO agree with that very last sentence; let the Iranian people try it first.....we can't afford another war at this point. Hell, none of the other great powers can either, at this point!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stillwaiting Donating Member (591 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
30. ANYONE that says that our goal would be to impose freedom in Iran or that WE can impose freedom
especially after the past decade in the Middle East is brainwashed beyond all hope. They are lemmings and useful fools.

People that think like this or leaders that would use this line of thought to justify further wars in the Middle East arena must be kept out of power.

I suppose things could get awfully interesting in our country if war with Iran is ever seriously entertained (or implemented).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
octothorpe Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
31. I tend to agree with most of what you said, but wasn't Iraq technology advanced too?
Edited on Thu Oct-13-11 07:07 AM by octothorpe
I mean, it wasn't an Afghanistan or Yemen.


Anyway, the people who call for war over everything make me sick. It's as if they don't realize that real people die in those things. Also, it's not just the direct deaths caused by such a war, but the deaths caused by giving certain terrorist groups something to rally behind and get motivation. It's such a short-sighted approach.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. No, it wasn't.
Iraq had been under strong international sanctions that banned the import of any technology, military supplies, medical aid, food, or other useful material since 1991. By the time we invaded in 2003, 12 years of sanctions had killed between 1 million and 1.5 million Iraqi's, and had reduced Iraq from a "modern" country to a nation that didn't even have fully functional urban water, sewage, or electrical systems. Cellphones, digital cameras, personal computers, and the Internet were nearly non-existent. Communication with the outside world was almost unheard of, both because it was banned by the Iraqi government, and because modern communication equipment didn't exist in Iraq anyway.

There was a time, from the 60's to the 80's, when Iraq was a fairly modern country, but that largely ended after 1991. Not only were they unable to get the resources to upgrade their infrastructure, but they weren't even able to repair the damage from the first Gulf War. When a part of their infrastructure failed, they either figured out how to repair it with domestic resources, or they just went without. There were entire Iraqi towns that went from having modern piped water systems in the 80's, to dipping buckets in water wells in the 90's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
34. Kicked&Recommended...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC