Drones don't kill people

[ashling]

anonymous contractors sitting at a computer in Florida or somewhere kill people.

[Kennah]

1. This drone did

[Major Nikon]

2. Yes, but Rove's hand was up his back

So I'm not sure that counts.

[Kennah]

6. So, in a way, Rove was the master, and Bush was a rabid dog?

We usually euthanize them.

[Major Nikon]

7. I'm not entirely convinced Shrub wasn't Howdy Doody with a face lift

Has anyone actually seen his birth certificate?

[saras]

3. No, an anonymous contractor sitting at a computer in Florida watching porn doesn't kill anyone.

It takes someone willing to take a job killing people long-distance to kill someone with a drone.

And you know, it seems to me by all the rules of war that ever existed that whoever is getting shot at ought to be bombing Florida. Surely we can't pretend that THAT is against the rules.

[geek tragedy]

17. Not if their participation in hostilities is illegal

and a per se war crime.

E.g. Al Qaeda.

[Major Nikon]

4. I'm pretty sure they aren't contractors

The military uses commissioned officers who have at least graduated initial pilot training, and the CIA uses gov employees working out of the basement in Langley.

It seems that even after the Bush years, some jobs are indeed inherently governmental.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Actually it mostly young USAF officers outside of Las Vegas Nevada who are doing it

With the full blessing and support of the Obama administration.

I do not believe contractors are manning the control console anywhere.

[JaneQPublic]

8. Actually...

...in war operations, contractors do not operate the "drones"; only military personnel do. In fact, some types of Unmanned Aircraft Vehicles (the actual military name for what the media call "drones") are programmed to fly autonomously, without real-time pilot control.

I suppose those who are so ardently opposed to the use of "drones" would prefer the use of the old B-52 bombers to carpet-bomb entire areas and take out entire villages indiscriminately.

Seriously, the concern ought not be with the use of "drones" or any other specific technology of war; it should be with the fact that we are conducting war operations at all, particularly in a place like Afghanistan, where even a sizable portion of the troops no longer believe there's any point to it.

[msongs]

9. so if I disagree with what you do, having you droned is a good thing. nice to know thanks nt

[JaneQPublic]

12. The leap of logic you took to reach that conclusion was truly amazing.

One could conclude that you didn't read or didn't understand my post.

But thanks so much for the friendly sentiment.

[chill_wind]

13. Actually

>I suppose those who are so ardently opposed to the use of "drones" would prefer the use of the old B-52 bombers to carpet-bomb entire areas and take out entire villages indiscriminately.<

I seriously doubt that. I think most people opposed to the drones are fed up with US sponsored death, dismemberment and mayhem --by all of its varied means-- all over the world right now, period.

In fact what I do mostly see instead are far more people opposed to conventional warfare and "cool with drones." So nice and clean and consequence-free. Just an abstraction and about as real as a fucking video game.

[JaneQPublic]

15. If fed up with war "by all of its varied means," then what's with the fixation on drones?

That's the part I'm having trouble understanding.

Yes, we all agree we should get out of Afghanistan and should have done so about 10 years ago. But what is with all the threads on DU making "drones" the villian, as though they're the worst things since the Atom Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima?

Is it because with drones the U.S. doesn't have enough "skin" in the game? If so, that's rather ironic, since at the start of the war, the outcry was the pointless loss of lives, including those of U.S. troops, with the latest casualty counts posted here regularly. Now, with drones, the complaint seems to be that there aren't enough U.S. casualties: "so nice and clean and consequence-free," as you put it. It just doesn't make sense.

BTW, in my earlier post, I should have put :sarcasm: at the end of my B-52 carpet bombing remark. I thought it was obvious, but obviously it wasn't.

[polly7]

20. Those drones have killed many, many civilians.

Investigation Finds U.S. Drones Strike Pakistan Every Four Days, Killing 775 Civilians Since 2004
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http://www.democracynow.org/2011/8/15/investigation_finds_us_drones_strike_pakistan

A new report from a team of British and Pakistani journalists finds one U.S. drone strike occurs every four days in Pakistan. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan have killed as many as 775 civilians, including 168 children, since 2004. The report also challenges a recent claim by President Obama’s top counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan, that no civilians have been killed in the drone attacks for nearly a year. According to the Bureau’s researchers, at least 45 civilians were killed in 10 U.S. attacks during the last year. We speak with Chris Woods, an award-winning reporter who leads the drones investigation team for the Bureau of Investigative Journalism in London.

That's just in Pakistan. How many other countries are they killing civilians in?

[Riftaxe]

10. Just out of interest, where do you get your

information that Civilians are driving US drones on attack missions?

I have seen that claim a few times, yet no one backs it up and I sure cannot find any evidence for it so far.

[Earth_First]

11. 174th Fighter Wing in Syracuse, New York

National Guardsmen pursue the enemy in Afghanistan with a joystick in Syracuse, carefully confirming targets, but distancing fighters from their foes.

Flight crews of the 174th Fighter Wing in Syracuse now commute to war.

Leaving their homes and families, they pass through the security gate at Hancock Airfield, park outside the Reaper operation center, swap computer stations with the previous shift and sometimes take over control of an armed, remote-controlled Reaper already cruising the sky over Afghanistan, 7,000 miles away.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/12/national_guardsmen_in_syracuse.html

[Mimosa]

14. Olderin-law in military intelligence told me video games were first developed for these military ap

Killing 'enemies' abroad is comfy and fun 'gaming', from the look of it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. I can't see how Pong was related to war... for me it was more like playing tennis. n/t

[Major Nikon]

16. CIA agents do indeed pilot drones used in combat missions

That's about as close as I've seen to "civilians" doing this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/11/AR2010031103653.html

[JaneQPublic]

19. I believe you're right about no civilians in combat missions

I work for a Navy contractor, and a coworker pilots several models of UAS, but his role is strictly maintenance, training, troubleshooting, etc. -- certainly no combat involvement.