Harvard Cancer Expert: Steve Jobs Probably Doomed Himself With Alternative Medicine

[Courtesy Flush]

http://gawker.com/5849543/harvard-cancer-expert-steve-jobs-probably-doomed-himself-with-alternative-medicine?tag=valleywag

"Steve Jobs had a mild form of cancer that is not usually fatal, but seems to have ushered along his own death by delaying conventional treatment in favor of alternative remedies, a Harvard Medical School researcher and faculty member says. Jobs's intractability, so often his greatest asset, may have been his undoing."

[mucifer]

1. Hopefully people can learn from this.

Thanks for posting this article. There are so many people who don't realize how far cancer research has come. The cure rates are especially high with pediatric cancers.

[ingac70]

9. There is no "cure" rate with pancreatic cancer....

Skipping the alternative stuff may have bought him 3 or 4 more years.

[mucifer]

11. But, who knows where the research will be in 2 or 3 years. Ultimately it was his choice

and he had the opportunity with his money to make it.

[Courtesy Flush]

15. Looks like it wasn't the pancreatic cancer we all know about

It was a different cancer that also affects the pancreas (yes, that makes it "pancreatic", but you know what I mean).

My wife has brain cancer. Before two years ago I didn't know that there are many different kinds of brain cancer. From my own personal experiences I'm not surprised at all to learn that there's more than one kind of pancreatic cancer.

[roguevalley]

25. God bless you and your wife. Take care.

[Courtesy Flush]

46. Thank you nt

[blueamy66]

72. good vibes to your wife

cancer sux

[morningglory]

21. 3-4 years of sickening treatments. nt

[TheWraith]

39. Compared with death? Yes.

Alternative medicine doesn't cure cancer. Trying to use it on cancer is a death sentence. For all the spin that's out there claiming that the treatments for cancer are worse than the disease, that's, you know, wrong.

[MedicalAdmin]

74. At the same time standards of care ...

with their definitions highly influenced by insurance companies (or worse yet, Drs. who get straight-jacketed by insurance company interference) don't always present the complete range of options.

What works well on one patient may not on another. Statistical medicine, like all statistics, breaks down on the individual level.

But I do agree that all medicine is medicine. I just wish that more of what is shoved to the side by insurance based medicine were still on the table ... like it is in single payer systems.

Cheerio.

[Yo_Mama]

38. He had a rare, highly treatable form

Neuroendocrine tumor. At least that's what they are saying.

[ingac70]

49. And that one was still certain death within a decade. n/t

[Orrex]

2. What's the harm?

:popcorn:

[graywarrior]

3. Steve Jobs made a choice. His right, no matter what Harvard has to say about it.

[Courtesy Flush]

5. I don't think they said he didn't have the right.

He can do whatever he wants. I think it should be public knowledge, though, that if you have this cancer you have good odds, and there are effective treatments.

[Orrex]

7. That's a common red herring in discussions like this

No one is disputing Jobs' right to hasten his death; instead the issue is that he made a poor choice when he could easily have made a good one.


A curious outcome for a man praised for his insight and wisdom and who is so commonly thrust onto the same pedestal as Ben Franklin and Thomas Edison.

[graywarrior]

19. Who knows what his deep philosophical beliefs were

I worked with people who used alternative ways to health, and they are fine now. I also worked at a major teaching hospital and have respect for the way western medicine works. Peronally, I think complimentary treatment is the way to go---don't reject either form.

[Orrex]

20. "I worked with people who used alternative ways to health, and they are fine now."

As long as you're not claiming that "they are fine now" because they "used alternative ways to health," then I have no problem with that statement. But when you start attributing causation, it's up to you to provide hard facts rather than summarized anecdotes.

Complementary medicine is a win-win for pseudoscience, by the way, because it allows the snakeoil peddler to take credit where none is due. If some woman's cancer goes into remission after extensive chemo and radiation, then the guy who sold her the shark cartilage will claim to have played a significant role in her recovery.


Jobs had more or less unlimited resources and still opted for non-medical treatment of his illness. I don't care what his philosophy was because it's irrelevant; the fact is that he died of a cancer that can be treated using actual medicine.


The question is often asked "what's the harm of using alternative medicine?" When a treatable disease takes a life because the victim decided to forgo actual medicine, then the harm is pretty self evident.

[graywarrior]

23. Everything recovery I've heard about has been a combination of both methods

Hell, even Michio Kushi had his wife, Aveline treated at MGH.

[Orrex]

24. But what do you mean by "both methods?"

What's an alternative method, in your assessment?

[graywarrior]

30. One method is conventional medicine, the other alternive including macrobiotics, etc.

[Orrex]

36. Well, that really doesn't mean anything

If it's medicine, then it's conventional medicine, including macrobiotic, etc.

And if it's not medicine, then what is it?

[graywarrior]

45. alternative methods

medicine is a method. there are alternatives to medicine.

But I'm not a medical or althernative medicine expert. Just another Bozo on the bus who thinks if people want to deny themselves conventional medical treatment, they should have the right to do so.

[Orrex]

51. Sure there are alternatives

There is medicine, and there is not-medicine.


As to the rest, no one has denied Jobs--or anyone--the right to forgo medical treatment.

[MedicalAdmin]

78. What are you talking about?

He had radiation, he had chemo, he had surgery. He left no stone unturned.

How does that equate to "opting for non-medical treatment?






Was your icon chosen for the ax you are trying to grind?

[roguevalley]

26. masters of their own universe need someone strong enough to

bounce them out of their self aggrandizing illusions. Bubble boys can't be wrong. ON the other hand, facing a lot of death in my family over the past few years, I truly believe that no one dies without agreement and it was his time. I think part of his life experience was this moment ... chose other people's wisdom or wallow in the (probable) fantasy that you know better than anyone else.

I am still processing him riding down an elevator chatting nicely with a female employee about what she did for Apple and then firing her at the bottom. That sort of fucker knows best. Hoist on his own pretard. RIP anyway.

[hfojvt]

27. depends on what she said

There was a guy at a factory where I work, was asked "What do you do here?" amd his amswer was "A LAP" (or As Little As Possible). It turned out he was talking to the new plant manager. It would not bother me if somebody with that attitude was fired.

However, I also can remember my first job out of college. I was hired by the Air Force as a mathematician, and for months it seemed like they had nothing for me to do. Evem at the end of a year, when I was doing what used to be the jobs of three people who had been moved elsewhere, it seemed like I was only really working about half of each day.

[JVS]

54. What about his "right" to take a donor liver to replace the one destroyed by his trusting woo over..

real medicine?

[Orrex]

62. Wouldn't call it a right in that case

It was, presumably, a decision made by whatever authority had jurisdiction, just like they'd decide yea or nay for a new liver for a chronic alcoholic. The extenuating circumstances vary from case to case and must he assessed for each.

[JVS]

64. It's kind of easy to worry about who has jurisdiction when you shop for a favorable jurisdiction.

http://exiledonline.com/memphis-where-the-oligarchs-eat-their-fellow-americans/

[MedicalAdmin]

77. He didn't turn down any conventional treatments either.

I guess that red herring is on your plate too.

[H2O Man]

57. Correct.

Well-said.

[Trekologer]

69. Of course but with the right information others can make better decisions

Someone might get cancer which might be completely be treatable and instead say to themselves, well Steve Jobs had all the money in the world to pay for treatment and it didn't help him, instead of seeking proper treatment.

[pscot]

79. I think that's the real issue

Jobs is dead, but others may base treatment decisions on his and not be able to afford to buy a new liver. Jobs choices cloud the data; make it harder for others to separate fact from magic,

[MedicalAdmin]

80. Um. What?

So, if I follow your reasoning you are saying that because Steve Jobs decided to have all conventional treatments and also added other therapies that may have given him some (whatever it was that it gave him) that others will just not seek treatment.

Wow. He was much more god like that attributed, no? From beyond the grave Steve Jobs reaches out to misinform the world. Wow.

[MedicalAdmin]

76. Zionks - talk about blind opportunism.

A public figure dies and this academic asshat takes a moment to use that death to publicize his personal position. I wonder if he's related to Bill Frist?

[no_hypocrisy]

4. Is there a form of pancreatic cancer that is "mild"? I thought it was nearly 100 % fatal.

[Courtesy Flush]

6. That's what I thought too

Wikipedia backs up this story.

We're battling cancer in our home. One thing we've learned is just how little most of us know about it. It's an extremely diverse and complex family of diseases.

[GoCubsGo]

17. Yep.

My mom had breast cancer twice. Each was a different form. There at least 7 different versions of breast cancer. There are multiple versions of blood cancer (leukemia), too. No surprise that there are multiple versions of pancreatic and brain cancers, as well. And, like the others, it's no surprise that they vary in their curability.

[ingac70]

8. There isn't a mild pancreatic cancer....

He MIGHT have lived maybe 3 or 4 more years had he skipped the alternative crap.

[Courtesy Flush]

12. A quick google search

found this link from USC.edu

http://www.surgery.usc.edu/divisions/tumor/pancreasdiseases/web%20pages/Endocrine%20tumors/pancreatic%20tumors/islet%20cell%20tumors.html

snip...
"Surgical removal of non-functioning islet cell tumors is often curative. Our patients are therefore evaluated for surgery and all attempts are made to try and completely remove the tumor."
/snip

Once you get cancer you learn just how complex it is. What you thought you knew... you didn't know. Trust me on this. My wife has been battling brain cancer for two years (traditional AND alternative treatment)

[EdMaven]

33. if jobs' form were so easily curable, he would have taken that easy cure. so it obviously wasn't.

jobs was diagnosed 10/02 & had tumor removed surgically 7/04.

He had chemotherapy.

In 2009 he had a liver transplant.

He did more chemotherapy.

And he died.

He used all conventional treatments available. He used alternative treatments. He apparently tried everything, and he still died.

[phleshdef]

37. Wrong. This doctor has had patients with neuroendocrine tumors survive over a decade.

From the article ->

Jobs's cancer manifest in neuroendocrine tumors, which are typically far less lethal than the "pancreatic adenocarcinoma" that make up 95 percent of pancreatic cancer cases. Amri said neuroendocrine tumors are so "mild" that... "In my series of patients, for many subtypes, the survival rate was as high as 100% over a decade... As many as 10% of autopsied persons in the general population have been reported to have one of these without ever having had any symptoms during their life. Up to 30% of detected GEP-NETs are so well differentiated they're strictly not cancers."

Keep in mind, Jobs was diagnosed in 2004, so he obviously survived longer than 4-5 years.

[EdMaven]

40. Jobs was diagnosed in Oct 2003. He had the tumor removed in 7/31/04 & did chemo.

Cancer returned, spread to his liver, he had a liver transplant & did more chemo.

He lived 8 years from diagnosis to death, almost exactly.

Much longer than the majority of pancreatic cancer patients. 5-year survival rate = 4%.

If Jobs' type of pancreatic cancer had such a good prognosis, let's see the information on this special type: name it & provide the details.

I don't believe it. I think the guy is using jobs' corpse to push his own hobbyhorses.

Jobs did every conventional treatment available & used alternative therapies as well. Most alternative therapies are about nutrition.

[polly7]

44. So he had the tumour removed within approx. 9 months.

The article states: "Many mainstream media, including CNN, stated that Mr. Jobs might have spent as long as two years without proper (conventional) treatment."

The author should have at least gotten his dates correct.

[MedicalAdmin]

83. CNN? Mainstream media?

I'm not saying they are wrong, but CNN?

[MedicalAdmin]

82. I agree.

It lacks anything remotely resembling class. Who published that screed? Professor Frist?

[MedicalAdmin]

63. Great! Another Frist diagnosis. n/t

[MedicalAdmin]

81. And he might not have.

And he might have been hit by a car, or been crushed in a random server farm shelving collapse tragedy.

[JVS]

13. From article

" The condition might have been nipped in the bud if Jobs had acted right away. Jobs's cancer manifest in neuroendocrine tumors, which are typically far less lethal than the "pancreatic adenocarcinoma" that make up 95 percent of pancreatic cancer cases. Amri said neuroendocrine tumors are so "mild" that...

"In my series of patients, for many subtypes, the survival rate was as high as 100% over a decade... As many as 10% of autopsied persons in the general population have been reported to have one of these without ever having had any symptoms during their life. Up to 30% of detected GEP-NETs are so well differentiated they're strictly not cancers." "

[morningglory]

22. "...acted right away..." This is hard to do. nt

[phleshdef]

34. The treatable kind is like, one of the rarest kinds among all pancreatic cancers.

The form Jobs had supposedly is less prone to quick spreading and can be highly receptive to surgery followed by chemo. Its hypothetically survivable if they catch it in the early stages. The vast majority of pancreatic cancers are not like that.

[EdMaven]

42. Name it if you know so much.

[Yo_Mama]

41. Yes - read the post that sparked the article

http://www.quora.com/Steve-Jobs/Why-did-Steve-Jobs-choose-not-to-effectively-treat-his-cancer

[CTyankee]

10. Uh-oh. Now you've done it...

:popcorn:

this should be an interesting ride...

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

14. recommend

[Codeine]

18. This will just reinforce the alt-med's martyr complex. nt

[FLAprogressive]

48. +1

[MedicalAdmin]

84. The what? Is that in the PDR or the DSM?

I was not aware of that complex.

Oh wait, you are just stereotyping and using that stereotype to imply your argument.

[mn9driver]

28. There is no form of Pan Can that is mild and not usually fatal.

If one is lucky at diagnosis, it hasn't spread and can be surgically removed, followed up by chemo, it is often survivable. Once it spreads, it is a death sentence. The fact that he lived as long as he did with his liver being involved is remarkable.

[LeftyMom]

29. He took some donor organs with him too. Probably doomed somebody else. Asshole. nt

[ingac70]

50. Cancer limits organ donation. n/t

[LeftyMom]

52. He was a recipient, not a donor.

Got himself on a bunch of different regional lists and hopped a private plane to the first one that had a match. It's good to be rich.

[girl gone mad]

31. Didn't we make fun of Frist for diagnosing based on a video?

I just don't see how this doctor can know enough about the patient to make that statement.

[NashVegas]

60. + 100

Funny, isn't it?

[MedicalAdmin]

85. Didn't you get the memo?

He's god. It's says so right there on his ego.

[EdMaven]

32. huh?

Pancreatic cancer is the fourth most common cause of cancer death across the globe.<1>

Pancreatic cancer often has a poor prognosis: for all stages combined, the 1- and 5-year relative survival rates are 25% and 6%, respectively;<2> for local disease the 5-year survival is approximately 20%<2><3> while the median survival for locally advanced and for metastatic disease, which collectively represent over 80% of individuals,<3> is about 10 and 6 months respectively.<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreatic_cancer

he gives the impression that jobs didn't use conventional treatment. in fact, he used *every* conventional treatment available, and they failed.

ergo, his cancer was not so "easily cured" as this flak is trying to make out.

[JVS]

53. Did you read the article?

[EdMaven]

59. I read the article & I read articles from the period. Jobs was diagnosed in

oct. '03 and had the tumor removed in july of '04.

His tumor was an islet cell neuro-endocrine tumor.

Islet cell tumors of the pancreas are different from adenocarcinoma of the pancreas. These tumors are derived from neuroendocrine cells and tend to be slow growing tumors that are treatable even after they have metastasized...Surgical removal of non-functioning islet cell tumors is often curative...

The natural history of islet cell and carcinoid tumors tends to be favorable as compared with pancreatic adenocarcinoma. For example, the median survival duration from the time of diagnosis for patients with non-functioning metastatic islet cell tumors approaches five years.

http://www.pancreatica.org/index.cfm/neuroendocrine_overview.htm

The cancer spread to his liver & he had a transplant in 2009.

He also did chemo.

He lived 8 years after diagnosis. That is better than the majority of patients in his situation, which is: a little fewer than half don't live 5 years.

The person in the OP is riding his own personal hobbyhorse over Jobs' corpse.

[EdMaven]

66. edit: should be "a little fewer than half LIVE 5 years." as the median survival is slightly

less than 5 years for jobs' form of cancer.

jobs in fact beat the odds, & this twerp is acting like his treatment was a failure & he'd be alive now if he'd done it differently.

there's no way the guy knows that (he admits he knows nothing about the case, in fact).

the facts are that jobs had the standard treatments & alternative treatments and outlived more than 50% of folks in his situation; probably more like 75%, in fact.

[Duer 157099]

35. If I were a billionaire with cancer, I would

build my own research facility, staff it with scientists and get them working on the cure STAT.

Why don't the 1% do this? I know that some do and in fact, more and more of our medical research in this country is being funded privately because so many federal grants are being cut.

It's pathetic when our science has to depend on the good will (or bad luck) of a few wealthy people, but that is where we currently are.

[MedicalAdmin]

86. +1

Great points. And it is one reason that the US is not longer the leading area for science in the world. The EU (taken a whole) passed us over a year ago.

It's sad when a once great country crumbles right before your eyes.

[elleng]

43. Didn't we read that this was a particularly deadly 'type' of pancreatic cancer?

Sorry, no links, and no inclination to demonize Jobs.

[FLAprogressive]

47. sCAM treatments strike again. If they worked -- they'd be called "medicine".

[InvisibleTouch]

55. Actually, given that he lasted as long as he did...

...he probably gave himself a lot more time, and productive time at that, with alternative treatments. Pancreatic cancer is never "mild," and usually results in death within months of diagnosis. Steve Jobs hung in there for 7 years. But leave it to the closed-minded purveyors of toxic treatments to spread lies.

These people disgust me.

[BuddhaGirl]

56. +1

n/t

[H2O Man]

58. Right.

People trying to promote themselves.

Thank you.

[Spider Jerusalem]

68. No, not really

With early treatment Jobs would probably still be alive; he had islet-cell carcinoma, which if caught early enough has a median survival rate of more than 10 years. See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2077912/

If anything he shortened his life by relying on alternative treatments.

[FLAprogressive]

73. Don't bother bringing in facts. He had garden variety pancreatic cancer and that's the story the

sCAM believers are sticking to. :rofl:

[MedicalAdmin]

87. Ironic avatar.

No H8? Really?

[diane in sf]

71. You're right--the article assumes that the cancer was first noticed at an early

enough stage to be treated by any means, wholistic or standard Western medicine.

[dionysus]

61. perhaps, but i've never heard of a "mild form" of pancreatic cancer...

[LWolf]

65. "Allegedly."

"It seems."

And...

Amri emphasized, "I wrote that on a PERSONAL title and it's my PERSONAL opinion." On Quora, Amri expressed his "profoundest respect" for Jobs and that "I do not pretend to know anything about the case on a personal level and I never participated in the care of Mr. Jobs.

[EdMaven]

67. "I don't know what happened but I'll offer my useless opinion anyway."

[MedicalAdmin]

88. "I have the profoundest respect for Jobs"

"And that is why I'm using his death to bloviate on a case of which I have zero knowledge. None. Nunca. But on the other hand, here is my name and you should remember it when you are sick because these are MY stats."

It's a freaking ad.

[MattSh]

70. Woo boy, if what passes for medicine in America is the best in the world...

Then the USA would be really high on the list of life expectancy by country, wouldn't it?

But the USA ranks #36. Behind countries like...

Costa Rica
United Arab Emirates
South Korea
Chile
Cuba

And of course behind most of western Europe, and Japan, and Singapore, and Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

[Courtesy Flush]

75. That's not the point of the article

If anybody had access to top medical care, it was Steve Jobs. He opted for alternative treatment. It was his own choice.

[BrendaBrick]

89. Jobs actually spoke about this in 2005

During his Commencement Speech @ Stanford:

Right before the 10 minute mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA