Clients Won’t Pay For What Law Schools Churn Out

[Poll_Blind]

From http://abovethelaw.com/2011/10/clients-wont-pay-for-what-law-schools-churn-out/">Above The Law:

You spend three years of your life going to law school. You spend over a hundred thousand dollars on getting that education. You take a difficult entrance exam to prove that you are qualified to practice law. You’d think that after all that you’d be able to convince sophisticated clients of your value as a lawyer.

You would, of course, be wrong.

The Wall Street Journal is http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/10/17/first-year-associates-are-they-worth-it/">reporting today that over 20% of corporate clients simply refuse to pay for first or second-year associate work on some matters.

--snip--

The sad part about this story is the total lack of reaction from American law schools. Again, the Wall Street Journal’s report is not really new information. Law schools have had years to digest the information that clients think recent law school graduates are ill-prepared to advise them on their legal problems. Whether you go to a great school or one that gets sued for allegedly misleading employment statistics, clients are saying that you are not prepared to do what they need you to do.

Which is pathetic when you consider that you just spent three years and six figures to learn skills that people are allegedly willing to pay for. If law schools aren’t pumping out people who can convince clients to pay for their work, then what are law schools doing really?

I caught this while searching Google News. The site appears to be a blog for lawyers. The excerpts are a bit misleading in this case because the issue being covered is that big clients don't want to be billed full rate for a first or second year intern to do some of the work. The work, though, they are typically tasked with is not rocket science anyway- at least according to the blog. Check out the full article, you'll see what I mean.

The point I wanted to underscore, and Lordy I have seen this popping up a hell of a lot in the form of articles, cartoons, opinion pieces, etc. is that law schools are happy to take your money but when it comes time to actually place their graduates, they really don't care what happens to you. And that leaves students out of a huge pile of cash without any clear way of paying off the debt.

From the same site (yes, you get a twofer!), http://abovethelaw.com/2011/10/career-services-official-admits-finding-jobs-for-students-is-not-her-job/">Career Services Official Admits Finding Jobs For Students Is Not Her Job.

A few people in real life had suggested that I might consider getting a law degree or, as they not unkindly put it "You're intellectually aggressive with an attention to detail which borders on assholery. Have you thought of being a lawyer?"

:rofl:

Unfortunately it looks like the profession, especially for new graduates, has hit a very rough patch. Which is too bad, I kind of liked the idea, though coming up with that kind of money is still something I'm not sure I could do.

PB

[Exultant Democracy]

1. I know a lot of lawyers that agree with the clients on this one.

I know more then a few people that went to top ten laws schools who say something to the effect of "I spent law school learning how to write like a lawyer and my first few years with the firm is when I actually learned how to be a lawyer."

[Poll_Blind]

11. For the amount of expense involved, that's a pretty frightening anecdote.

Although I've heard the same said about a BSN (Bachelor of Science in Nursing).

PB

[MountainLaurel]

19. My husband is a 3L and says the same

That law school has nothing to do with actually being a lawyer, and the bar exam has nothing to do with either. He learned more from 2 semesters working in the indigent law clinic than he did in his other 3 years (he's a couple hours shy of graduating).

[Manifestor_of_Light]

2. Some of us take a lot longer than three years to graduate.

It is 90 semester hours of hell, and it took me five years, working at the courthouse as a court reporter and going to night school.

I had experience in the real world at the courthouse, and I was a legal secretary for my dad, so I grew up around the legal profession. My mom would type pleadings and I would ask her, "What does KNOW ALL MEN BY THESE PRESENTS" mean? What does WHEREFORE PREMISES CONSIDERED mean? What does "Defendant prays that plaintiff go hence without day" mean? (that was the prayer in a General Denial).

I had a much better grasp of pleadings and trials than most of the clueless rich kids who go to law school to find themselves.

I couldn't find a job as a super paralegal with a J.D. either. Fortunately I was able to pay as I went to school and don't have student loan debt.

However, this society throws away trained and educated people, so I'm not surprised. My B.A. and my J.D. I spent ten years on total, have never gotten me a single job. My two year degree from a community college did.

I thought if I worked hard and got a good education, I would be able to get a job using my degrees for some higher level thinking. It did not happen. I am glad I have the knowledge, but otherwise it was a real waste of time.

Law schools have been cranking out too many lawyers for decades. I graduated 25 years ago and there was a glut then.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Thanks for sharing that- very interesting story and maybe more broadly indicative of...

...some of the weird (to me) backlash, if that's really the right word, against bigger degrees in general. A friend of mine is finishing up his bachelor's degree in psychology and is gunning for his doctorate- after taking a little time off. Already he's dealing with a job market which is very competitive and in which there are some seriously slim pickins.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the two year degree that did pay off for you? Obviously, I think people find success in whatever field they love working in. At least, that's the hope. I'm just curious what paid off for you, at least currently?

I was considering going back to college and finishing at least a bachelor's degree but lately, I've wondered to myself if it wouldn't be better off to use the same monies to get two two-year degrees from a community college instead. This is all just spitballing at the moment but it's something which has popped into my mind quite a bit as I observe my friend's progress (he's a very good student) and the resulting work available for him, which is not so good.

PB

[Manifestor_of_Light]

16. I was a court reporter. Drove me nuts.

They don't like people like me that get a BA in biology and a JD. They are very much into mediocrity. They don't want court reporters to get an education. I was threatening to them. The state board wanted me to tell them how each course in college and each course in law school could substitute for their stupid little continuing ed programs I learned nothing from. I would have given them a tautology: Remedies helped me in cases concerning Remedies. I had enough college for 33 years of continuing ed credits.

I cannot think of two degrees that would be any better for a court reporter than biology and law.

Then there are nasty lawyers and judges that yell and scream because they have a problem. The elected District Attorney of Harris County, Texas, Patricia Lykos,once told a judges' meeting that I was incompetent and not to be hired. She was a felony court judge. Because of judicial immunity I could do nothing about her.

What do you do when a felony court judge LIES to a group of judges and you can't do a damn thing about it?

What do you do when you explain why you haven't finished a transcript and the lawyer says, "I don't believe you" and hangs up????

What do you do???

Court reporting is extremely stressful. You have to stop people mumbling and talking over each other, and handle exhibits, and all sorts of stuff. And the lawyers threaten to file a grievance with the state board, to show how much power they have, and they never want to pay for a transcript. But they asked the question three times when one would have done, and they complain about how long it is. They have tried to replace us with tape recorders. Tape recorders cannot discriminate and pick out voices clearly. I really don't care what they have done. I think all those years of taking down trials and typing transcripts was utterly meaningless, even though I had a license for twenty years.

The court house in the city is a snake pit. I came home and cried every day less than ten years after I got my license.

If our society didn't throw people away, I would be training trial lawyers. But I don't.

I got to where I would click on objections.
A witness would say "He told me" and I would look at opposing counsel while thinking "Objection Hearsay" to see if they would stand up and object. I got a fabulous understanding of procedure and evidence. You cannot understand those unless you see them in action in court.

i would come home and cry from the stress even when everybody was nice to me that day. It got worse when they threatened me with filing a grievance, or ignored me when I told them, after typing a jury charge and staying late, that "irregardless" is not a word. I told a male judge that, and he ignored me. Then one of the male lawyers corrected him and he changed it. I'm an overeducated, petite and threatening female, by my very existence, apparently.

:wtf:

Then there was the lawyer that asked the people who worked in the court I happened to be in if I was reliable. Did I change transcripts? Now that is insulting as hell. If you change a transcript that is probably a felony. That is so insulting I can't wrap my mind around it. They do everything they can to slander you and hold you back, because they have psychological problems.

I feel my years of taking down trials and typing transcripts was utterly meaningless.

[Poll_Blind]

30. I hear you- that's terrible and I'm sorry you had to put up with that b.s.

I can't really share much, but I and (especially) my girlfriend have been in similar situations to yours. I am sorry you had to go through that. Having grown up around some epic idiocy in the deep south, I have a serious aversion to people who are nuts. I just don't roll well in those conditions. Especially in situations like yours where they're in positions of power and let fly calumnies just to entertain themselves.

As far as your last sentence, I would have to say that I came to a similar conclusion about one of my past jobs. Never forget to value yourself and remember that you are worthy of value in others' eyes. If they can't give you that respect, my advice is always just get the hell out of there. Almost no matter how much money you're making it's not going to make you happy if that's the case.

Thank you for that post! Even when it's painful, the sharing that people do on DU is one of the big reasons I keep coming back to read and learn.

:hug:

PB

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. I stopped doing it in 1996.

I had some crappy temp jobs after that. I can't deal with the mindset of corporate America.
they always say you broke some rule they didn't tell you about.

[catabryna]

3. Every newly minted lawyer needs a good legal assistant...

it helps get them started on the right track. Been there, done that! Usually doesn't pay so well though. lol!

[FloriTexan]

5. Yea, if he can find one...

that has time for him. Our large international law office has a ratio of about 7 attorneys to one paralegal with no one backing him up.

[catabryna]

14. We're not hard to find... nt

[monmouth]

6. That's exactly right and then there's the office politics between the

legal assistant and the seasoned legal secretary..Whooo boy, I've seen a couple of those episodes. Many of the clients are just as happy speaking with either the LA or Sec. if they're going to get the right information. The actual lawyering work of course has to come from them. Clients would be amazed at how much the LA and Secretary actually work on their cases..

[FloriTexan]

10. As a legal secretary....

I can confirm that! I've been a secretary for 30 years (Gawd I'm getting old) long before there was such a things as a paralegal. So I went to school to get my "paralegal certificate" only to find out that I would have to take a huge cut in pay to be considered "entry level" when in effect the certificate backed up my skills and not the other way around. After about a year of paralegaling, I'm happily back to being a secretary.

[monmouth]

13. Good for you. I was an in-house court stenographer in New Jersey and

sort of a "floater" for vacations and sick days. I learned a lot...

[catabryna]

12. Been on both sides as I'm not formally trained

and learned my way through many patient (and not so patient) lawyers. I've seen lots of rivalry, but I wasn't usually a part of it.

[TBF]

15. I did that in the 90s and it was very lucrative in the top firms with the O/T -

I burned out after 10 years and went back to grad school. I doubt many of those positions are even there any more, staff and young associates were laid off in droves a few years ago when the market crashed.

As for the OP, unless you can get into a top 10 school and graduate high in your class good luck ... and even if you do those things if you don't have family money you are paying back loans for quite awhile.

[catabryna]

17. I prefer small law firms.

I didn't burn out. I just chose to leave so I could stay at home with my kid for a variety of reasons. I loved my job and the people I worked with.

eta: I also really cared about our clients.

[TBF]

24. I actually liked it for awhile - I did trial work

but at some point i got tired of the long hours. I loved it while I was working, but would miss months away from friends/family. I'm glad you found a way to do it in a small firm - I know it can be a very rewarding career long-term. :)

[joeybee12]

4. Why did the lawyer cross the road?

Because the accident was on the other side.

[madinmaryland]

21. So that he could see the Red Sox choke on TV at the bar across the street!!!

:D

[FloriTexan]

8. Clients pretty much circumvent the hourly ratings anyway...

or should I say anymore. We send a bill, they tell us what they will pay. We grudgingly say okay. Some firms are considering droping the hourly fee system in favor of a flat rate fee scenario.

[bluestateguy]

9. Law schools have created an oversupply

The same thing universities have done with Ph.D. programs: too many Ph.D's for too few academic jobs.

But universities use law schools as a cash cow with professors who easily make at least $150,000 a year, deans who make much more than that, and a huge number of students who graduate with no job and a big pile of debt.

[Liberal_in_LA]

23. they sure did. n/t

[Jkid]

18. This will be a good opportunity for states to bolster their public defender programs.

Think about it: a Public Legal Service for people who can't afford regular lawyers. If the private industry refuses to hire, I think the government should use this to their advantage. There might be a oversupply of lawyers in the private sector, but there is a urgent need of public defenders.

[former9thward]

25. It would be but there is no funding for it.

PD agencies have faced budget cuts just like everyone else.

[JVS]

26. This would also be a good opportunity to create a massive army of prosecutors.

Gee, where could we use such an army of prosecutors?

[mentalsolstice]

20. Been there, done that. It sucked big time.

Fortunately when I graduated in 1990, my total bill came to $38,000. However, my school tripled the tuition for the class of 1993, my class was grandfathered from the hikes.

For me, I had very few pleasant moments in the profession. Oddly enough, my best paying job was in IT for a Fortune 500 bank, it paid off my law school loans.

My pleasures in the profession came from a low paying job that was 60 miles away, unfortunately I couldn't keep up with the 120 mile per day commute. Nonprofit law is the most rewarding, yet many have to give it up for for-profit positions, and their souls, to pay for the loans.

[white_wolf]

22. Note to self: Reconsider law school.

Maybe I'll just stick with my plan to double major Journalism and Sociology and forget law school. I really enjoy learning about the law and I think it'd be interesting career, but I don't think I could afford the cost.

[joeglow3]

27. I am a tax CPA in a private company and agree with this for CPA's.

They simply are not worth $100-200 an hour here, when I can run circles around them. When we need advice, we need skills well beyond what is available in our department (which is way beyond a first, second or fifth year CPA).

[Shagbark Hickory]

28. Too many babies. Not enough jobs.

[truedelphi]

29. One of the sad things about law schools is that people come out of those schools

Not knowing diddley squat about running their own firm.

They have no idea of how to file the paperwork. I am not talking about difficult paperwork, just run of the mill stuff. Then heaven help that newbie if the opposition has more paperwork to throw back at them.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. kick for the night owls.

[lonestarnot]

33. Law is a racket. Look at what's at the top. Al Eato (Grimace), Thomas, Scalia.

Fucked up field. Conflict of interest is no longer an issue that will be taken up by those at the top. :puke: