Well, it appears everyone else is too afraid to ask, so I will....

[Scuba]

Poll question: Well, it appears everyone else is too afraid to ask, so I will....

... when the Overlords try to turn our all-volunteer military on us, will the troops obey?



Having served during periods of civil unrest (Viet Nam era) I contemplated this question many times, and many long nights were spent discussing this specific issue. The answer then was always "no, the troops would never turn on the People" even as we witnessed it happening.

I wonder how years of Fox News and other propaganda have changed the thinking among our citizen serving in the armed forces.


I've never seen this issue discussed here, or covered in any media. Too horrible to think about?


Anyway, what do you think?

[hack89]

1. Un-rec. Stupid question.

the military will not be "turned" on the American people. You insult millions of your fellow Americans by even suggesting it.

[bainz]

4. I think OP has a good point.

Seeing as the The Christian Evangelical influences at the Air Force Academy have created a monster that we all fear when walking down the street.

[kestrel91316]

20. As time goes on, the repeal of DADT will result in more and more fundies

in ALL branches of the military leaving for other lines of work.

[rhett o rick]

16. Nice attitude. The question is far from "stupid", a word that shouldnt be used in

a decent discussion. The National Guard has shown in the past that they will act as an arm of the government and "turn" on the populace.

[TheWraith]

24. Sorry, but sometimes a stupid question really is a stupid question.

Case in point: the premise that there's going to be a military showdown against the protesters is pretty laughable.

[rhett o rick]

31. I dont think this is either laughable or stupid. But apparently you know where this is going.

Maybe you can share.

[uppityperson]

36. I unrec'd for use of "when" vs "if" and for the assumptions people are "too afraid to ask".

I've not seen anyone "afraid to ask" and I see this as an "if" situation, not as a "when" situation.

[rhett o rick]

50. You do have a point. nm

[AntiFascist]

41. Oh really? I think it depends on the level of disturbance...

the National Guard was called in during the LA Riots:

http://www.militarymuseum.org/HistoryKingMilOps.html

...

There were considerable discussions about the speed with which Guardsmen had responded to the emergency, an issue which continues to this day. No one doing the criticizing during the riots asked us what the standard is, though we know that the military has a standard for just about everything. In this case,good source is the Department of Defense Civil Disturbance (Garden Plot) Plan. The 7th Infantry Division (Light) at Fort Ord, California, received orders to move at 0415 hours on May 1, 1992. The first chalk lifted off slightly over 12 hours later. The task force closed at El Toro Marine Corps Air Station, about 25 hours after the start time. That is well within the standards described in Garden Plot. It is also helpful to note that the 82d Airborne Division's alert battalion is expected to have the first aircraft wheels up in 18 hours. Guardsmen were committed and on the streets before 18 hours had elapsed. As you can see, that was an extraordinarily fast response, especially when considering that the response was initiated without warning.

After law and order had been restored, Guardsmen heard that they had been federalized and Active Component soldiers and Marines were on the way to restore law and order. Feeling that their efforts were not recognized or appreciated, morale plummeted.

[gateley]

2. Other: Some would, some wouldn't.

Like in Egypt, a few here, a few there, breaking with the group to join with the people.

That's what I'm thinking, anyway. IF this were to happen, I think it would be a very personal decision for those asked to arrest/shoot us.

[RC]

3. Good question. I'm thinking they will use the police, backed up by Blackwater or some such.

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. And as you know, that is exactly why they created Blackwater. A nice little private police force.

[newfie11]

9. exactly!!!

[rhett o rick]

18. Why pay for a private army when you have a taxpayer army at your disposal. nm

[Fire Walk With Me]

42. Paid by taxpayers, to oppress the taxpayers...hmmmm....

[grasswire]

6. with drones, it won't have to be actual troops firing

And if the drones are in the command of the USAF........

[Dragonfli]

40. Worse, the drones are commanded by the CIA /nt

[newfie11]

7. I don't know about the military (some would follow orders no matter what) but

wouldn't put it past the private mercenaries the government has.

[Dawson Leery]

8. Mercenaries/Blackwater

[robinlynne]

10. You forgot they privatized. there are private companies trained and ready all over the

world. paid for by our tax dollars.

[banned from Kos]

11. illegal - see the Posse Comitatus Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

which was overturned in 2006 and restored in 2008 (interesting trivia)

[rhett o rick]

14. As you show, it can be overturned at the drop of a hat. nm

[Jester Messiah]

49. National Guard doesn't fall under that though, IIRC. [nt]

[rug]

12. It can go either way.

[LatteLibertine]

13. This is

another reason I loathe knee-jerk "patriotism". It fosters an environment that will make it fairly easy for them to do so.

All they need do is label OWS; UnAmerican, thugs, terrorists etc. And slap those labels on people who support OWS as well.

Police and military are just another arm of the most wealthy when you get down to bedrock because they've bought our government.

Will some of them refuse orders? Hard to say, they've been >conditioned< to do otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Some will, kent state. Others will not...

And if this devolves into civil war, Te military will divide the same way it did in 1859

[kestrel91316]

17. Presumes a fact not in evidence.

"when" the Overlords try to turn our all-volunteer military on us......

WHEN???

Reword it with IF, and I just might consider the question.

[Scuba]

34. How about "When they next turn..."?

[uppityperson]

35. That and "it appears everyone else is too afraid to ask". Reword with IF and leave out the "appears"

Not sure why "it appears everyone else is too afraid to ask". Have people been whispering about this, or beating around the bush? Why would someone assume people are too afraid to ask?

And why assume "when" rather than "if"?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

19. The answer was posted by Firewalkwithme a few minutes ago.

Scene from Occupy Phoenix last night.

[ThomWV]

25. What question does that photo answer?

I don't see any relevance between that photo and the question in the post.

[bainz]

48. That is a shit ton of PDX PD.

Anyone have a head count on officers total? I am still looking, but can't find payroll records.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Remember the absurd, but entertaining, Die Hard 2?

The rogue military has someone in their ranks who doesn't know what they're up to, so as they begin their operation they simply cut his throat.

The analogy is, when you have infiltrated the military with enough 'true believers' and enculcated a culture of 'us versus them', all they'd have to do is eliminate or marginalize the troops who they know would not go along with it. Blackwater is a step in that direction. The evangelizing of the troops is another. When 60 of 80 men in the barracks can be counted on, the other 20 are no more than a speedbump.

[Rex]

22. Not going to happen. Troops have been abused for over a decade

now by rich fat cats that make billions off of bombs and tanks. They are not stupid and I believe if push came to shove, they would destroy the rich just out of anger for being abused for so long.

Troops are people too and are not all the stupid RWing idiots people make them out to be. They know what OWS is about, they know the TARP deal was bribe money to Wall Street.

Just watch...the rich are going to get eaten by the very same people they kill off for profit.

Wait and see.

[Dover]

23. There are so many choices of 'weapons', many untested, for crowd control

Who needs a whole army?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riot_control_weapons

On the other hand, what is the point of dwelling on this question?
All we need to stay focused on is maintaining nonviolence.
What will be will be.

[ThomWV]

26. the problem is that there are also many Soldiers and Police that would love to test them on us.

[Dover]

32. I don't see any advantage in moving into fear and anticipating what has not happened.

I would advise to stay centered and strong in the moment, as in doing martial arts.

[BlueIris]

27. Other: It won't matter. At least not WRT this specific 'period of civil unrest.'

As more time passes, I feel the Occupy movement is going to fritter out underneath more shocking developments.

[msongs]

28. the drones are coming. they will be turned on us eventually nt

[RagAss]

29. Even if 25% are with the people...that's a hell of a well trained guerrilla force.

[yellowwood]

30. Why?

Why would the powers that be try to turn the military on "us?"

[Rex]

38. It is a Right Wing pipedream imo.

One that will never happen.

[trof]

33. I'm torn between 3 and 4.

As an Air Force pilot and veteran I'm absolutely gobsmacked by what's been going on at USAFA.
My pilot training classmates were all '63 academy grads.
They sure weren't the kind of folks they're cranking out now.
:-(

[Samantha]

37. Technically, the Army and Navy cannot be used as a Posse Comitatus

meaning, they cannot be used as law enforcement against this Country's citizens. Here is a link:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00001385----000-.html

Exceptions can be made as defined by the Constitution or by an Act of Congress. Where that leaves the National Guard, I am not sure, but perhaps someone more familiar with the National Guard can clarify that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

If you asked me if reality and Federal law always comport, I would say you already know the answer to that, don't you?

:-(

Sam

[snot]

39. We've allowed them to be heavily brainwashed. So I'm not totally optimistic . . .

[Shipwack]

43. "Other" - soldiers/sailors/airmen are not some sort of homogenous group

They are people too.

I know some that would do it in a heart beat, happy to be doing some "real stuff".

Most probably wouldn't, though if a crowd turned ugly (or was made to turn...)all bets are off, because even the "pros" can panic sometimes, and all it takes is one idiot that panics and accidentally pulls the trigger.

[L0oniX]

44. ...and when they fire on us ...more people will hate the military ...just like me.

[Liberal_in_LA]

45. the troops will kick the asses of the 99ers

[stevenleser]

46. Other: We will win without any of this coming to pass...

We already have Eric Cantor on record admitting the protesters have a good reason to be out there.

When this gets big enough, the Republicans will fold like a tent, they are cowards and chickenhearts for the most part as we all know, and Democrats will fall into line behind OWS precepts.

That is my prediction.

[bainz]

47. I remember the National Guard patrolling I-295in Florida...

I remember the National Guard patrolling I-295in Florida when the overlords decided that the election was on the line. Want to say a member of the BFEE was in office at that time. Hmmmm.