OK, what's with the "OWS demand" that student loan debt be cancelled?

[Scuba]

Why is this a "forefront issue" (my words) for the OWS movement? There was a huge banner at the Occupy Milwaukee event Saturday "demanding" forgiveness of a trillion dollars in student loans, and it ended up as the "face of the protest" in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel.

Fodder for the right-wingers: "these people are just bums that don't want to pay their debts".

Now I understand the issue. I'm an advocate for publicly funded education - through PhD if you've got the stones. I can even see current students getting some relief from their debt.


What I can't see is this being a "top of the chart" issue for OWS. What am I missing?

[RKP5637]

1. IMO it will be used greatly against OWS by the R lie and spin propaganda machine. n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

10. Exactly ,It's a statement fromm our greatest commodity ' Educated Youth '

A demand might be a little specific for calling the Wealthiest Elitist-est ever ,to task.Republicans bond like amoebas and can cheer for what they have no clue about ,being liberal minded and fair sohttp://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/09/03_hard.html

[Luminous Animal]

35. The the R's should go after OneWisconsinNow.org because they created the sign

and it was their org that carried it.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/occupy-wall-street-movement-reaches-milwaukee-131916813.html

[RKP5637]

55. IMO it's a good idea, with all of the money this country comes up with to

spend on banksters, wars and wall street. But investing in the future of our youth, well no, I guess.

[Devil_Fish]

92. Where on this banner do you see a demand for forgivness of studen debt??

[RKP5637]

183. I was thinking along the lines of the petition going around for debt forgiveness. Frankly,

I would prefer to see funds go toward this than the MIC.

http://signon.org/sign/want%2Da%2Dreal%2Deconomic?source=mo&id=32074-5687041-FVbk8bx

[MindandSoul]

2. I agree with you, although. . .if we have "bail outs" for banks, why not

have "bail outs" for students? (or at least partial ones, or reprieve until the economy gets better and they find a job).
After all, their education is suppose to benefit ALL of us!

[markpkessinger]

136. The right-wing response to that would be that the banks paid back the money n/t

[Starlight]

152. And they did. If you use that comparison, aren't student loans already "bailing out" students?

[polichick]

3. The thinking is, these students did everything right, going into debt to go to college...

...as our society tells them they should - but now they're screwed because that same society has no jobs for them. (Heard this explained on some program over the weekend.)

[coalition_unwilling]

122. Add to that that student loans are no longer generally dischargeable

through bankruptcy and you have created a toxic mixture that, in bygone days, used to be known as 'indentured servitude.' IOW, the government, financial institutions and their collection agents can and will follow you to the grave seeking repayment of these loans.

Absolutely reprehensible what this society and capitalism have created.

[polichick]

129. It really is reprehensible - my kids have many friends who are in so much debt...

Something has to be done to help all these young Americans.

[jbnow]

177. No they won't. A change got through that lowered % of income that

must be paid each year and shortened the time until rest of debt forgiven if payments are made. The loan repayment percentage drops from 15% of discretionary income to 10%. (income after taxes and other essential expenses)

The Student Loan Forgiveness Act lowers duration of student loan to 20 years. If you make the payments then the loan is considered paid in full and closed.
Those in public service job can qualify for loan forgiveness program after 10.
(Remember Obama also got banks out of loan program. This was mostly snuck in with health care bill reconciliation)

This is less then he was asking for but quite an improvement. Problem is obviously payments might be hard to keep up and though income is considered in amount.... it would be nice if there was some specific protection during this time. Also, if I recall, the final bill delayed the start of when students became eligible for this. Those already graduated might not be and that should change.

But if they asked for help in this area they should also demand that laid off people who had to withdraw IRA get a rebate on tax penalty they paid and that homeowners who are underwater at the very least still be able to refinance at lower rate.

[coalition_unwilling]

178. This does not match my personal experience with one of my

staff at my last position whose wages were being garnished to the tune of 25% of her gross to satisfy massive amounts of debt she had signed on to at the oh-so-mature age of 18 and 19. Maybe by the time a lender has reached garnishment, he or she no longer can meet the standards of the loan forgiveness provisions?

At any rate, I was apalled that 25% of her gross wages were taken to satisfy a debt taken out to pay tuition at one of the proprietary diploma mills. She was going to be an indentured servant for quite some time, as her gross wages were not very high to begin with.

[jbnow]

191. That's a horrible situation and hate to think how common it might be.

People come out with such huge debt and are not then getting hired at huge salaries!

If I recall it is future graduates that benefit from this, a change from Obama proposal. They really need to adjust rules and penalties for people under economic burden now. Like how ridiculous that the long term unemployed that need retirement account to survive pay big penalty for early withdrawal... or that underemployed graduates lose the chance for better terms because of their low earnings (and on and on)

But what sounds really unfair is 25% of GROSS income? I think 25% was (is) old cap but I'm sure it was of discretionary income, seems that would be true even in garnishment stage, at least for the government sponsored loans.

You're right that they don't give up though. If I recall right the debt isn't even waived if people get on disability. (So I assume bankruptcy can't clear it either?)

[Starlight]

153. I blame the schools for encouraging students to take out huge loans.

I worked to put myself through school. Yes, it's difficult, but it's better than going into debt.

[ellisonz]

155. With what wages are...

...you can't work to put yourself through school. Maybe an A.A. but certainly not a B.A. or B.S.

[Starlight]

180. Sure you can. I'm not saying it's easy, but it can be done.

[polichick]

181. Maybe it is the schools - they're part of our society and part of the problem. Kudos to you...

...for managing to put yourself through!

[riderinthestorm]

196. My 23 yr old worked year round, got grants and scholarships, attended state schools

and still ended up with $21k worth of debt by the time she had her masters.

She did her undergrad in 3 years and her masters in a year (in fact her masters was at the University of York in the UK for her archaeology degree which was CHEAPER than anything she could manage in the US).

I'd be very curious how you managed to work and go to school and accumulate no debt (assuming you went to school within the normal 4 year undergrad and 2 year grad program).

My daughter worked her ass off - averaging 20 hrs/week, work/study - but that was the MINIMUM she managed to escape with for debt. We (her parents) subsidized approximately $60k ourselves for her education. She lived in dorm housing her entire college life (got free housing her "senior" year at school as an RA) so this wasn't for extravagant expenses like a lavish off campus apartment.

[Starlight]

197. I went to a less expensive state university that I could afford.

It's possible to get an education without spending a fortune:

http://www.collegeboard.com/student/pay/add-it-up/4494.html

[Raster]

4. You are missing that many younger persons have to go into deep, uncompromising debt....

...to fund their educations. Student loan debt can haunt for years, even decades.

The United States should: (1) make education a NATIONAL priority, with most education, including higher college education free; and (2) definitely should not charge interest and profit off of loans to students.

[Scuba]

8. No, I didn't miss that, and I agree with your "no interest" point...

...what I want to know is why this is at the front of the OWS movement, when it is so politically volatile?

[Raster]

15. Part of the OWS movement is to confront head-on the politically volatile,

...which has been a large part of this country's problem all along.

We neglected to fully punish Nixon and Watergate because it was too politically volatile.

We neglected to fully investigate and punish Raygun for Iran-Contra because it was too politically volatile.

We neglected to hold Bush1 responsible for instigating the first Gulf War because it was too politically volatile.

We allowed an unelected moron to be inagurated as POTUS because it was too politically volatile.

Need I continue?

[MilesColtrane]

28. "We neglected to fully punish Nixon and Watergate because it was too politically volatile."

Nixon was not impeached because he resigned. He was not prosecuted because he was pardoned by Ford before he was indicted.

Mitchell, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Colson, Dean, Hunt, Krogh, Liddy, and Magruder all did some prison time for their crimes, maybe not enough, but you can't argue that the architects of Watergate weren't punished because there was no political will to prosecute them.

[Raster]

36. And that is EXACTLY my point. Nixon should have never been pardoned, and in fact,

resigned or not, should have been tried for his crimes.

[MilesColtrane]

52. But, he was NOT pardoned because a trial was too politically volatile.

That is what Gerald Ford asserted as his reason for the pardon, but frankly, it was horseshit.

He was not prosecuted because partisan politicians wanted to protect one of their own.

Most of the public wanted Nixon to pay for his crimes and were dismayed when Ford pardoned him. They repaid Ford by sending him packing in the next election.

[Raster]

60. of course it was horseshit. And why did the public not insist?

We have a long history of avoiding the "politically volatile" in this country. Too long of a history.

Ford was sent packing for two reasons: (1) pardoning Nixon; and (2) he was a fucking doofus that couldn't fart and chew gum at the same time.

[MilesColtrane]

77. "...why did the public not insist?"

Probably because they knew that public insistence doesn't trump the powers granted the President by the Constitution.

But, they were still mightily pissed off and vocal about it.

[markpkessinger]

137. Indeed -- pissed enough to boot Ford out of office for it! n/t

[aquart]

48. The little fish fried and the big fish swam.

A stinking precedent for a stinking president.

[MilesColtrane]

69. Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution

I've always wondered why the founders granted the President such sweeping power to override the justice system.

It should at least be modified so that a President can't pardon a former boss or someone who worked for him.

[aquart]

72. The pardon power is absolute so that the next guy can't re-arrest.

I don't disagree with pardon power being absolute. I'm disgusted, eternally, by the decision to grant it to Nixon, especially before a trial and conviction.

[MilesColtrane]

81. And, let's not forget the Chimp and Scooter Libby.

Is absolute pardon and commutation power worth the obvious abuses that happen when corrupt Presidents (i.e. Republicans) are in office?

[aquart]

46. Agreed. Stop running for cover.

[Devil_Fish]

85. We allowed an unelected moron to be inaugurated as POTUS Because it was too

politically volatile.

We do not charge the unelected moron with war crimes which he has openly admitted to in a auto biography because it is too politically volatile.

[rgbecker]

125. Right on Raster!

[Cali_Democrat]

61. Yup. n/t

[StarsInHerHair]

194. our education system is not competitive with China & India, were I think it's free

so, they better get competitive & drop their prices.........somehow I don't think they would willingly do this

[a la izquierda]

5. I believe Saturday was a banner day for that.

I support it fully. I took out my loans knowing I'd have to pay them back. I mortgaged my future not to become a millionaire, but to teach college kids. But I'm exhausted with these administrations who refuse to tax the rich when the middle class public servants get screwed. One rich person's tax cut could pay back my loans. In one fall swoop. In one year.

[TheWraith]

6. The problem is that OWS is basically an inkblot test.

It's everything to everyone, including the idea that every "demand" is equally important and should be heard. You'll see a lot of people "demanding" an end to the drug war. Great idea, but it's not going to happen soon, and it definitely has nothing to do with Wall Street.

That's the real problem with the entire premise of OWS: too much idealized theory about how democracy works or should work, too little real experience with the hard, unpleasant parts that involve electing people who will help do something.

[sabrina 1]

83. No, it's not actually. You have completely misunderstood the whole

movement. You will see lots of people doing lots of things. The only thing that will matter is when there is a consensus which is only in the process right now.

This is a process it's not the old 'sound bite' politics which has been such a failure. This will take time because there is so much to fix, but it all starts with the Money in Politics and that is the main thrust of this movement. Once that is dealt with, everything else can be addressed. But the current system is too corrupt being that the elections are bought, that nothing will happen until the most important step is taken and that is separating our Government from Corporate money. We don't need any more Wall Street Candidates.

[TheWraith]

143. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

Because you just proved my point. You want to see some kind of crusade against money in politics, and view OWS as being that. Whereas realistically, that's not the case--nothing is actually being done to advance that cause.

[sabrina 1]

170. Are you really serious? I remember four weeks ago people

said 'they'll be gone by the weekend'. Just wait and see what they do. Funny that you want miracles from the American people, but make no demands on those who had the power to do what was right and have spent all this time offering nothing but excuses, when there were none. Now the people have had it with the excuses. They know what's going on, that's all it took, finally to start working on what our elected officials should have been doing but are all in the service of Wall Street.

This movement started and spread and will keep growing, because of the refusal of both parties to work for the American people.

The money CAN be taken out of politics. I'm surprised you don't see how. I know it can and I know that right now, thousands of bright, some brilliant people are working on it. It took decades to get to where we are, basically a failed society. It will take time to fix, but from now on, things are going to start changing, they already have begun and I hope it is not too late.

[EFerrari]

7. Who cares what the wingnuts think. #OWS isn't running for office.

[badtoworse]

9. You're not missing anything

This demand is a great example of why OWS isn't going to be taken seriously. I sure don't support that demand - I had student loans and I paid them off.

[white_wolf]

13. Good for you. Thousands of them can't find a job after going into debt to pay for school.

You sound like the right-wingers who complain about people on food stamps or well-fare. "I work hard, I shouldn't have to support them. I didn't need help why should they?" College should be free for everyone single person in this country and if we have to raise taxes on the rich to do it, then so be it.

[badtoworse]

19. Do you honestly believe this idea will sell?

Do you think people who got foreclosed out of their homes would support the idea? How about people who paid off car loans or people who are current with their debt? There are lots of people that paid off their student loans or are at least current with them. I think most of these folks would have a big problem with cancelling student loans. You're very naïve if you believe otherwise.

I do believe that a deal is a deal and offer no apologies for that.

[white_wolf]

22. Why not? Debt forgiveness isn't a new idea.

As I pointed out Thom Hartmann had anthropologist on his show talking about it a while back. Hell, we already saved the banks, we might as well save the people the banks hurt. As I said before, your view of everyone for himself is very right wing.

[Scuba]

32. I don't disagree that it's the right thing to do. My question is why is so...

... high on the chart? There's lots of "right things to do" that don't have the backlash.

[badtoworse]

186. See No. 185

It's about fairness (to everyone). Every man for himself has nothing to do with it.

[juajen]

172. Gee all we see from our government is bailouts of S&L's, Wall Street

and anybody else. Why are you so against a bail out of students, who were encouraged to take out as many loans as possible, with the fairy tale that as soon as you have degree in hand, a job will be there to pay off the loans. I know for certain that Starbucks has a lot of college kids working for them because of the benefits and the flexible hours for students. Problem is, when they graduate, they still work at Starbucks. It's actually a good company, but cannot support part time workers. These kids can not even move out of their parent's houses, in a lot of instances, let alone afford a modest apartment, car and/or student loan payments.

After all, it all comes from us, the billions and billions of money wasted on wars and given to big corporations and countries for our benefit; yet you are upset at the thought of student loan debt being forgiven. Are you sure you're at the right house?

[badtoworse]

185. I'm not against forgiving student debt

I'm against forgiving debt in general. What makes students so special? Why not forgive mortgages or car loans? I still owe about $90k on my house - why shouldn't my debt be forgiven (and of course I keep the house). What about students who went to a community college because they were too prudent to borrow $200k for Ivy League? Is that fair to them? Is it fair to students who paid off their loans?

Even if we got past the fairness aspect (a big if), the government can't mandate that banks write off the loans. They are receivables on the banks' balance sheet and an asset. Forcing a writedown would be a taking and would violate the 5th Amendment. The only way it could be done would be for the government to absorb the loss and we don't have $1 Trillion that it would cost.

[badtoworse]

189. See No. 185

Basic fairness is right wing? What about all the other people who are ineconomic deep shit?

BTW, CCNY had open admissions in the 70's. Guess what - a CCNY degree was worthless in the job market after that. Prior to that, it was considered a good school.

[nebenaube]

16. you had low interest, deferrable debt and a future, they don't...

And that is your clue for the day.

[markpkessinger]

139. EXACTLY! N/T

[eridani]

174. Bingo

I had 2% interest NDEA loans which were postponed when I went to grad school. TA and RA fellowships weren't taxable either.

[badtoworse]

188. See No. 185

Students aren' the only people in economic deep shit

[Luminous Animal]

40. The OP is incorrect. This is not a OWS demand but rather an issue for OneWisconsinNow.org

which made and carried the sign. Also, the sign clearly does not say what the OP claims it says.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/occupy-wall-street-movement-reaches-milwaukee-131916813.html

[coalition_unwilling]

127. The social contract has been irretrievably rent, thanks to 30 years of

Reagan-Bushism. I'm glad you paid off your student loans and hereby award you a gold star for your efforts. But students were in many cases sold a bill of goods, i.e., if you get an education it's worth going deeply into debt, because there will be a good job waiting at the end. There is no good job waiting for many graduates but their loans are no longer dischargeable through bankruptcy. As a result, we have an entire generation of indentured servants. That's not my idea of how democracy or a democratic republic is supposed to function. Is it yours?

[badtoworse]

187. See No. 185

[Starlight]

157. Exactly. Those of us who worked and went to state schools so we could afford our education

don't want to pay for those who chose to run up huge loans going to expensive schools or partying.

[rhett o rick]

11. Before you go crazy, you need to make sure that it wasnt O'Keefe carrying the sign. nm

[seacaves]

12. Is this really a demand? News to me.

[seacaves]

14. I saw that banner but I read it as they have huge

loans,yet no jobs out there. I did not see the demand for 'forgiveness' of the loans although there were huge numbers in the comment section of that article mocking that sigh and saying vile things about the movement.

[Luminous Animal]

45. It is not a demand from OWS but rather an issue for OneWisconsinNow. They made the banner

and they carried it.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/occupy-wall-street-movement-reaches-milwaukee-131916813.html

[TygrBright]

17. It's not a "'top of the chart issue' for OWS." It's a "top of the chart issue" for...

...paid flaks and shills of the Oligarchy who want to undermine the credibility of OWS with what they assume is a potentially sympathetic mainstream.

It IS an issue for OWS and rightly so, as the crushing burden of mortgage, educational, and health care debt is a particularly vicious tool for keeping the 99% in line. Some may want "100% forgiveness," others might simply want an unspecified form of relief, others might have particular proposals. But whatever the most "extreme-sounding" position might be, that's the one that the Oligarchs' shills will claim is a "top of the chart" issue for "ALL of OWS."

Pathetically clueless drones that they are.

amusedly,
Bright

[TheWraith]

20. That sounds like an easy excuse for dismissing a real problem, to me.

Take anything that's silly or impractical, and blame it on "paid shills" instead of the real world fact that some people are impractical.

[sofa king]

34. This is beginning to sound like Shay's Rebellion all over again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion

The financial situation leading to the rebellion included the problem that European war investors (among others) demanded payment in gold and silver; there was not enough specie in the states, including Massachusetts, to pay the debts; and throughout the state, wealthy urban businessmen were trying to squeeze whatever assets they could get out of rural smallholders. Since the smallholders did not have the gold that the creditors demanded, everything they had was confiscated, including their houses.

The accelerated transfer of wealth upstairs made the people unruly, so the, uh, creditors, including one George Washington, decided at that time that a stronger central government might be a good idea... and wrote the Constitution shortly thereafter.

So I completely agree with your observation above. "Money's nice, it keeps us in line," said Ian MacKaye.

[Enrique]

18. "fodder for the right-wingers"

that's what it strikes me as, so we should be careful that it really represents them.

I was about to get all concern-troll on this, and then I saw that the student loan thing is being trumpeted on all the RW sites plus CNBC of course, so we should be careful what we believe.

[white_wolf]

21. I just have to ask.

What is wrong with forgiving all student loan debts? Hell, I think we should forgive all current debts. The concept of debt forgiveness isn't an old one, Thom Hartmann had an anthropologist on his show a while ago to talk about it. Seriously, most a lot of countries have free college education. I swear people talk about how great America is, but I'll take Europe any day.

[PETRUS]

24. Debt is the very basis of our money supply.

"They" don't want you messing with that.

[Cid_B]

25. Because some of us sacrificed to pay our debts...

... Why would it be fair to give a free pass to those who didn't?

[Raster]

26. The concept of incurring massive debt just for an education is wrong.

Should we continue to perpetuate that wrong because "some of us sacrificed to pay our debts"?

[white_wolf]

27. Good for you.

You likely had lower interest rates and much better economy to do it in. If this economy was great and people could find jobs to pay off their debt, then maybe you would have a point. However, the fact remains people are suffering and it won't hurt you any for us to step in and help them. There are plenty of ways we could raise the money to pay off the debt aside from simply forgiving them outright. Raise taxes on the rich back up to 90%, along with corporate taxes, raise capital gains taxes as well, end the wars and close our foreign bases. It's time we started taking care of the people who need our help and stop taking care of the rich and fighting wars for them. Going by your logic we should never go to single-payer healthcare because some people had the money to pay their medical bills.

[Cid_B]

29. It will hurt me...

... because if I knew there was going to be a 80,000 freebie given out I would have kept it for myself.

Same goes for everyone else. Why should they pay anything they owe? Just wait for things to get bad enough or enough people to complain and it will all go away...

edit: Redaction... I would likely pay my debt anyways as I am not a leech but I doubt that would be a common trend...

[white_wolf]

38. Do you take the same position on medical care?

Should we not have single pay healthcare, because some people were able to afford their medical bills or were able to pay them off over time?

[apocalypsehow]

57. Ridiculous analogy: people can die without healthcare; no one forced ANYONE to take out a student

loan. Besides, which, you're changing the subject. Deal with the issue put to you in the OP, not obfuscatory subject-changing.

[white_wolf]

68. It's the same concept.

You're upset because some people might get help that you didn't. The very fact that people have to pay for college in this country is a problem. It should be free to anyone who wants it. It works for most of Europe.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cid_B]

80. Oh really?

You can just wander into a University in Germany and say "I'm here, teach and support me?"

It shows your complete ignorance on the subject.

The schools are state supported yes, but only the brightest get in and they start getting sorted around age 8. Can you imagine this in the US? I sure as hell can't.

Top 10% or so end up at the Gymansium (Smart kid high school) and are generally Uni bound.

Another example of ignorance coupled with how you want things to be. It's like Canada, Europe and Venezuala are all these magical paradises with unicorns and free stuff for everyone. The reality, on the ground, is far different.

[white_wolf]

86. Finland has free education up to the PHD level for anyone who can pass the classes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if America wants to improve at all it need to adopt the Nordic model.

[Veruca Salt]

182. It's not just classes, you have to test into their programs first.

My Finnish friend semi recently went through this. She didn't test into the course of study she wanted (twice) and ended up going to a trade school instead.

In the US as long as you can take out the crap tons of money required you can usually find some school that will take you for whatever you want to go for.

[girl gone mad]

39. You're not thinking about the big picture.

Some amount of debt forgiveness for students who are unable to find good employment opportunities would go a long way toward improving our overall economic position and our ability to compete globally. Our private debt levels are crushing us.

[sofa king]

54. When the people start fishing for the "reset" button...

...the system has already crashed.

Your experience, and mine, is not theirs. Unlike us, they have no future, know it, and realize all that education is now worse than useless to them, because the debt will follow them to their early graves.

We had a chance to pay our debts off. What chance do these brilliant young adults have, when half of everyone aged 16-24 is jobless? At their age, how close were you to ripping back your own future in what proves to be a much wealthier, more comfortable past?

Well, they're a hell of a lot closer than that. "They've got no hope, so they've got no fear," said Scream.

[Cid_B]

65. Im 30... and have had my debts paid for 4 years...

Sadly the folks calling for this are "my generation"

[sofa king]

118. Then you've beaten the odds.

And that is excellent!

But your experience is not theirs. Your effort actually stands out all the more because you managed to pull that off in such a difficult time. And, because your education actually proved to be of value, rather than a burden.

That is not the case for most recent college graduates, and most of those who are students now. You should consider trying to understand their frustration, rather than holding them all to your own unusual standard of success.

[closeupready]

63. And your credit rating is likely far better than someone whose debt gets forgiven.

Did you know that student loans are one of just a handful of types of debt that are generally not dischargeable in bankruptcy? What that means is if you are adjudicated by a court as someone unable to pay, for example, $5,000 in credit card debt, you can still remain liable for $150,000 in student loan debt. I don't understand what kind of logic is used to make that work.

If you're broke, you're broke. People should take their lumps, credit damaged, and have an opportunity to make a fresh start.

[girl gone mad]

30. So what, you want debtors prisons?

People discharge bad debt every day. It sounds as if you want to end this practice altogether.

[Scuba]

37. Not at all. As I said, I'm in favor of helping the students. My questions is why ...

... is this issue so "high vis" as compared to the myriad of other issues?

[Luminous Animal]

42. This is not an OWS demand but rather a OneWisconsinNow.org issue. They made

and carried the sign and joined the OWS march.

Why are you attributing an issue from an entirely different group to OWS?

Also, nowhere on the sign does it advocate debt forgiveness.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/occupy-wall-street-movement-reaches-milwaukee-131916813.html

[Scuba]

53. They were marching at the OWS gathering, ergo my "attribution". See my post #49 for more.

[Luminous Animal]

66. Ron Paulites show up with their "End the Fed" signs, too. Does that mean that

their message is an official OWS demaind?

[Scuba]

88. Point taken.

[girl gone mad]

67. Your comment was that it was unfair for others to get something..

for free when you had to pay.

It sounds as if you would be okay with it as long as you also got help. How about a tax credit for anyone who has paid off loans but remains in a low income job?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

74. You're doing the same thing Santelli did when he asked if you want to pay your...

neighbor's mortgage.

[Odin2005]

117. Your "I've got mine, FUCK YOU" attitude is part of the problem.

[coalition_unwilling]

132. A major, perhaps the major, part of the problem. Wish I could rec your response - n/t

[woo me with science]

156. Thank you. nt

[dameocrat67]

148. start charging ny and california boomers for the free educations they

got in the 60s and 70s then. the truth is democrats who have a problem with it are right wingers themselves.

[onpatrol98]

150. Entered country legally...

Some of us entered the country legally, why should others be rewarded with citizenship, who didn't...

Perhaps the results would be stimulative...although every time someone mentions saving jobs for teachers, police officers, and construction workers, I do often think...what about everyone else

[jtuck004]

154. Great question. Why did the taxpayers have to give money to Wall Street

to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to satisfy their bad debts and pay their bonuses, while taxpayers who are the victims of a massive financial control fraud ("Control frauds cause greater financial losses than all other forms of property crime" per William K. Black, here in the mortgage market don't get the same relief?

Why are students told for 12 years that to be successful means going to a college, which usually means mandatory participation in a massive, government-controlled system that facilitates huge debt creation, (WHILE THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS DAMN GOOD AND WELL THERE ARE NO JOBS FOR THEM), only to find out there are no jobs upon graduation?

Why do we make the choices to grant large tax cuts to those with multiple homes and extroidinarily high incomes while cutting heating payments for the most vulnerable, insuring them a miserable and scary death, here.

Why can't we figure out that it isn't fair that the 1% get debts forgiven quite often, but when it comes to the single parent there is no great moral quandry if they can't pay it back. It's because the business owners sent most of the high-paying jobs overseas, sticking the profits in their pocket rather than pay a living wage.

Fair my ass.

[handmade34]

160. sacrifice?

why do you assume people not paying student loans are just slackers?? Most people don't pay student loans because they don't have enough money to make the payments!

I guarantee that if most people behind on student loan payments had liveable wage jobs and money to "sacrifice" the loans would get paid.

The stories are endless and it would serve you well to really listen to some of them... you are looking at this with blinders on... your story is only one of hundreds of thousands...

[Synicus Maximus]

47. I think w should forgive all debt. But I would like 60 days notice before

we do it.

[TheWraith]

58. What you're describing would destroy the economy far worse than Wall Street.

Seriously, it could only be proposed if you don't know the consequences, starting with banks failing. Most of them, in fact, particularly the smallest banks, since if you toss out all debt--even just limiting it to debt owed by individuals--you're basically putting the financial system in a blender and hitting frappé.

Your personal bank account? Gone, because the bank has suddenly lost all it's money after people's mortgages and car loans disappear. That's basically the entire point of small banks: some people save so others can get a loan. Big banks would do just fine though, the ones that hold substantial assets and do business with corporations.

[kestrel91316]

23. Trouble is, student loans are now just like credit card debt as far as

the similarity to loansharking, from what I've heard. And even if your great education turns out to have been for a career that no longer hires in the US, you will carry that debt to your grave, suffering wage garnishment and destroyed credit all the while.

A college education is valueless if it does not translate to increased employability.

[OHdem10]

31. Fox is doing its best to marginalize OWS. They brought this up

as some great new demand. Of course they went on to try
to sound as if they are the superior "elites" putting
out the word thes aare strange people. Message they
hope to ger out. Middle American you would not want
to be caught with the likes of these.

Heeheehee. To bad the people at OWS are middle America.

[Luminous Animal]

33. There is no such demand from OWS. And the sign does not say what you claim it says.

Link to the sign that was carried by OneWisconsinNow.org
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/occupy-wall-street-movement-reaches-milwaukee-131916813.html

[MilesColtrane]

43. What is your interpretation of that sign?

Are protestors demanding banks stop loaning money to students?

[Luminous Animal]

50. Why don't you ask OneWisconsinNow since it is their banner and not an OWS demand.

Perhaps they want debt relief or restructuring of loan terms.

http://www.onewisconsinnow.org/

[Warren Stupidity]

94. Where does it say abolish that 1T?

What a freaking leap of logic.

"1T in student loan debt. Big banks stole our future."

That is what the sign says. You and the OP are just making shit up.

I suggest you take it up with the Milwaukee GA. Go there and tell them that you have a blocking problem with this sign.

[Scuba]

49. Thanks for finding the link. You're correct it's not a "demand" per the banner...

... and the draft list of demands I found supports that.

6D: Enact an immediate and one-time removal of all interest on current student loans so that the student is only liable for the principle of the loan.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/http:/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2086904


So the right-wing is twisting it again. That's what I was missing (should have started with that assumption!).

[Luminous Animal]

59. And that is not a draft of OWS demands. It is a list of suggestions put out by a person

who posted on a website. There are dozens of individuals who have drafted suggestions of OWS. Not one of them are drafts or official or anything.

Jeesh. Even the fucking title in your link clearly states this, "Excellent list of demands suggested for OWS

[MilesColtrane]

84. Thanks for clarification.

'Banks stole our future' may be pithy, but it doesn't begin to describe what they want changed.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. yes you should have and good on you for seeing that and saying so.

[fishwax]

159. thanks for the link -- very helpful to see the actual sign n/t

[jmg257]

41. From Occupy Wall Street on facebook...

"OPEN FORUM: The Student Loan Debt Abolition Movement

Saturday, October 22 at 11:00am, zucotti park"

http://www.facebook.com/OccupyWallSt

199 comments on this subject.

[gulliver]

44. Successful students should have their loans forgiven, IMO.

You're right that it will sound like people demanding charity though.

I would like to see graduation incentivized. Student loan payments should be a refundable tax credit for graduates. The government gets back its money ten times over by getting more people to pursue higher education and graduate...to say nothing of increasing our country's competitiveness.

Unsuccessful students should have their loans paid off by a special, ruinous tax on for-profit colleges.

[slackmaster]

64. Define "successful student"

Do you mean one who passes all of his course work successfully, or one who achieves a larger goal such as getting started in a chosen career?

[slackmaster]

62. Bust a deal, face the Wheel!

[JVS]

70. Because nobody has been hiring the college graduates for the last 4 years.

This debt is as big an issue to the demographic most likely to be involved in the occupation as social security is to senior voters.

[Logical]

75. I agree! Everyone should have to pay their loans! This crap make the Liberals look bad.

[JVS]

76. If you want to play that way, then fuck homeowners and trying to keep housing prices from collapsing

After all, if young people are to be crushed under debt, why should old people who foolishly bought houses they couldn't afford be helped at all?

[Logical]

87. What about people who worked two jobs to pay their student loans.......

You going to refund their money also? Unbelievable!

[Luminous Animal]

90. You do know that the Tea Bag movement started with similar logic.

Santelli's rant was specific to mortgage relief:

"CNBC's Rick Santelli called for a "Chicago Tea Party" Thursday, leading the charge for calls to revolt against the Obama Administration's mortgage bailout plan"

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29283701/Rick_Santelli_s_Shout_Heard_Round_the_World

[JVS]

93. Hey, I'm a renter, why should I give a fuck about homeowners?

Crash, market, crash. I want a cheap house and I have cash.

[Warren Stupidity]

98. I think you need to put up a sign at http://the53.tumblr.com/

They will feel your pain.

[Logical]

109. Answer the damn question! Do you pay back my brother who paid his student load off by working ....

two jobs?

[Luminous Animal]

110. No. Just like you don't pay off the person who managed to pay off their mortgage

working two jobs because someone else might benefit from Obama's mortgage relief program. (Of course, the entire foundation of the Tea Party movement was to oppose mortgage relief based on similar arguments that you present here.)

[Logical]

113. I imagine you want to help the homeowners who speculated on homes also to make a quick profit?

[Luminous Animal]

123. If it results in assistance to the vast majority who are legitimately struggling,

then I won't give a flying fuck about a small percentage of opportunists.

[JVS]

124. What exactly do you consider to be the academic equivalent of house flipping?

[Logical]

130. Deciding not to pay off your load because it is a hassle. Or waiting for the government to...

give up on it.

[JVS]

133. I don't see how you equate the two. Flipping a house is a get rich scheme.

Is not paying your loans a get educated quick scheme? Do you really think there are people who are trying to get rich by running up massive educational debt that they cannot hope to pay off?

Or is this some kind of fictional welfare queen situation?

[white_wolf]

78. So explain to me why we bailed out the banks then?

[Logical]

82. I didn't agree with that either.....

But I am tired of this signing up for a loan and then not paying it. Houses, School, etc. Unless someone was criminal and lied to you or forced you to sign the papers then you owe the damn money and should pay it back.

What about the people who worked at Taco Bell to pay their loans back already? Going to refund their damn money?

[coalition_unwilling]

138. By God, let's bring back Debtors' Prisons while we're at it. And

let's dispense with this nonsense that the original American Revolution ended indentured servitude.

:sarcasm:

[JVS]

91. Because elections were coming up and boomers shat their pants over their 401K statements.

Realistically, I think your desire to forgive all debt would not work, but it never hurts to ask for more in negotiations.

The way I look at this is that one of the reasons that student debt has always been a favored holding of the banks is that up until now it has generally been a good type of debt to hold. College graduates do statistically make more than non-graduates.

Then again, the economy has not been kind to college graduates since 2007. This is a prolonged period in which college graduates have faced a great deal of unemployment and underemployment. As a result of this, one might begin to wonder whether student debt isn't developing a toxicity of its own, and by toxicity I mean that in the technical sense as debt that is unlikely to be repaid. I would posit that like the popped housing market, this lost generation of students also cannot serve as the golden egg laying geese that would successfully back up their debt. Fortunately for the lenders, the US government has guaranteed these loans and the banks will not lose money. Unfortunately for the students, the government has also made student debt something more akin to a criminal fine than a regular debt. This should be rectified. At the very least I would like to see students allowed to defer payment without penalty until they have gainful employment. Also, since the federal government is guaranteeing the debt, they are in a position to cancel some or all of the individual's debt, and a renegotiation of payment in light of the diminished earning expectations of the post depression generation are in order.

Doing nothing is not an option. You cannot have the largest retirement group ever collecting social security from a small generation that is underpaid at shit jobs, forced to buy insurance that they are technically better off without, and crushed by student debt. Anyone who values social security, or any of the health care reform should pay heed. Because if measures are not taken to give the young a reasonable economic chance, they will allow the last vestiges of the new deal to be destroyed. And it won't be out of malice, it will be because they cannot afford to keep them going.

[white_wolf]

99. You are correct that it isn't realistic right now.

However, I've always thought when you are negotiating you should put your most favorable position forward. You have a better chance of getting what you want then.

[JVS]

100. I agree. Ask for much, be prepared for less.

Especially since the federal government is already in the business of guaranteeing this type of debt, this shouldn't be re-inventing the wheel.

[sabrina 1]

89. Why were the Wall Street criminals bailed out when the screwed

up?

As for this OP, it has little to do with the movement itself. I guess there are people here who have not taken the trouble to find out how it works. A group in one city does not represent the movement at all. But they are free to state what THEIR concerns are, as is everyone.

Who cares about making 'Liberals' or anyone else look bad? This is not the old 'left' 'right' politics so I suppose it will take time for those who worked within that system to figure it out. I am so glad to see an end to that failed system.

It's funny how millions of people around the world understand this movement, yet people here have no clue about it, especially those in politics. I guess it's hard to let go of old habits, but the time for the old failed politics if over. The WORLD demands real change and the rapid growth of this movement across the world, shows how ready REAL people are fot that change.

[Logical]

108. I hated that also. But paying off everyones student loads is a BAD IDEA!

[sabrina 1]

111. Who is paying off every student's debt?

Although that would have been a better use of the trillions given to corrupt Banks if there had been a choice.

As I said, this movement is just beginning. None of these issues have even been discussed yet. So I don't know why anyone is getting hysterical. However, something WILL have to be done, about everything that resulted from the Money In Politics, and this issue is just of those things that will have be dealt with eventually.

[Logical]

115. I am 100% in favor of removing money from campaigns and politics. If we can....

get past the 1st amendment issues.

[sabrina 1]

179. We don't have to worry about that.

All we have to do in the upcoming election is to list the candidates with their Corporate Donors next to their names, in every state and every district. Make it poison to accept Corporate Funding. Of course they can if they wish, but in the current climate many of them will be exposed as Wall Street candidates and the polls are showing that anyone tagged with that label, will not be very popular.

Then good people who do not accept Corporate funding can get into these races and USE this as a big issue in their campaign. With this movement growing, they will get the help of the people and this could for the first time, level the playing field.

Picture the fliers and ads etc. A list of the Candidates, no party affiliation listed, just heir photos and list of donors. This can be done by the people. As Anonymous says, 'we are legion' so the candidate with no corporate funding now has a chance.

Many voters do not know who is funding the people they vote for. Part of this movements strength will be to provide information to the voters.

I just saw a poll from NYC. Over 65% of the people there support the OWS protesters, over 80% believe they should be there.

In the Time poll last week, over 54% support the movement, in both polls, the Tea Party got about 22%. And in the Time Poll over 80% has heard about the movement. And that is without the help of the MSM or spending huge amounts of money on advertising etc.

That power can be used to force candidates to either refuse Corporate funding or lose. And to give a chance to those who up to now, could not compete against Wall Street.

It could become political death to be called a Wall Street Candidate. Of course in some areas of the country some will win, but with the polls showing so much anger at Wall Street, I would not want to have my Corporate Donations be an issue in the campaign, if I were running.

Getting rid of the money, means getting rid of the worst of our politicians. And then we can begin to get some laws in place to completely reform Campaign financing, among other things.

As it is now, we will never get that kind of legislation. But this is a chance to do what needs to be done. The people want it.

[Warren Stupidity]

96. Moral hazard is only for peasants.

You knew that, right?

[sabrina 1]

79. Just because one group has made it a big issue, doesn't mean what

you are implying. Occupywallstreet have already issued statements, over and over again, about how they will go about developing their strategy and have made only one issue a priority since it was the main reason for the occupation and the cause of just about every other problem we have, war, student loans, foreclosures, loss of pension money, the crash, etc. etc. and that is 'Separate Wall Street Money From Our Government'.

I don't know why you think that because one group in one city is making that demand, that that is what the whole movemment is about. Really, you should check out their Newspaper, their list of grievances, their Livestream and all the other literature and interviews they have given. But if that issue is important to someone they are free to say so so long as people understand that no one speaks for the whole movement unless there has been a consensus.

[Devil_Fish]

97. Where on this banner do you see a "Demand" for forgiveness of student loan debt??

[Warren Stupidity]

101. The OP has agreed it was a bunch of rightwing bullshit disinformation.

[Devil_Fish]

104. Then he should have placed a link to the article in question in the OP.

[Scuba]

102. Please see my post #49. Thanks.

[Luminous Animal]

106. Even post #49 contains misinformation.

In that post, you make the claim that your link shows a draft list of demands. It does no such thing but rather provides a list of suggested demands from some guy on the internet.

[underpants]

103. We rescued bad assets why not forgive bad liabilities?

student loans (like all other credit) is a drain on the economy that produces nothing.

They want free college education - a few cuts in defense spending and corn subsidies would make that possible.

[white_wolf]

105. True, but defense is sacred to both parties it seems.

I really don't understand why, I personally am sick of this whole empire thing. It isn't working out too well.

[girl gone mad]

107. We wouldn't even need to make cuts, really.

It's just marking off entries in a book (on a computer, technically).

So someone who went to college but can't find gainful employment would owe less on their loan, for example. More money would stay in the economy since paying off these debts essentially destroys money. This would be a decent stimulus.

[TBF]

112. Youthful movement - it's on their mind. At this point I would settle for

lower interest rates and longer repayment terms (I've got that for some loans but not all).

I'd love a system where University could be free. We have far too many folks getting generic useless degrees as opposed to learning trades.

[Odin2005]

114. Do you not know how deep many of my peers are in student loan debt?

My generation was told that it was a "good investment" to take out student loans because we would make more than enough to pay it back. Well, the jobs never came.

[coalition_unwilling]

165. And, to add insult to injury, the same parasites who were bundling

sub-prime mortgages into mortgage-based bonds (subsequently fraudulently passed off as triple-A securities) were bundling these student loans together. But this time, they've got the Federal Government as their enforcer.

It's so fucking disgusting that I want to :puke:

[TwilightGardener]

116. That's just dumb. And a shame. I hope that's not echoed elsewhere.

[girl gone mad]

119. Whether or not you believe it to be "dumb"..

at some point student debt forgiveness will be undertaken.

Keep those pearls handy.

[apocalypsehow]

120. No, it will not, because the day it is the student loan program will be scrapped, with gleeful

Republican's pointing out that the entire program was just a huge boondoggle in the first place. Indeed, I suspect that it is mostly conservatives who wish such a massive debt forgiveness scheme would be undertaken, precisely so they could come up with an excuse to insist it be abolished. And with that much debt assumed, as it ultimately would be, by the taxpayers, it surely would be abolished.

[girl gone mad]

126. There is no need for the taxpayer to assume the debt.

Our economy doesn't function that way.

[apocalypsehow]

131. LOL - you go right on believing that. Tell the authors of TARP about it while you're at it.

"Our economy doesn't function that way" - :eyes:

BTW, you have a reply to correct up above: why don't you see to it? :shrug:

[girl gone mad]

135. Interesting that you bring up the bailouts, since that proves the point I'm making.

Our government spent some 14 trillion bailing out the banks.

Tell me how much your taxes were raised to pay for these bailouts?

[apocalypsehow]

140. Actually, it proves my point: TARP can at least claim to have recouped what it loaned out, even if

it never should have been undertaken in the first place. In this instance, you are talking about forgiving more than a trillion dollars that would never be recouped, and that would be known up front. Only the government, i.e., the taxpayers, have the financial ability to assume those debts, and would - in the unlikely event such a debt forgiveness scheme ever got through Congress, the odds of which are practically nil.

But if it did the price tag would be even steeper: the end of the student loan program, period. Republicans would rejoice. Seems to me, some folks are okay with that...curious.

[girl gone mad]

142. TARP did not recoup what it loaned out..

and the banks are still on the hook for a minimum $1.5 Trillion.

How much have your taxes gone up?

Taxes do not fund government spending. Debt forgiveness would not lead to higher taxes.

[apocalypsehow]

147. Wrong, per usual:

Of the $245 billion invested in U.S. banks, over $169 billion has been paid back, including $13.7 billion in dividends, interest and other income, along with $4 billion in warrant proceeds as of April 2010. AIG is considered "on track" to pay back $51 billion from divestitures of two units and another $32 billion in securities.<4> In March 2010, GM repaid more than $2 billion to the U.S. and Canadian governments and on April 21, GM announced the entire loan portion of the U.S. and Canadian governments' investments had been paid back in full, with interest, for a total of $8.1 billion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

So, while not ALL of it has been paid back, a huge chunk of it has, and the plan so far is that eventually it will all be recouped.

But that wasn't really my point, now was it? (I was and remain against TARP in any event): my point was that at least those who benefited from TARP could claim to be in a position to pay back the debt incurred by the taxpayers. A student loan forgiveness program would not.

I would say "please try again," but that doesn't seem to be working out for you in this thread, alas.

[girl gone mad]

149. You say TARP was recouped, I say it wasn't..

then you give me a link to a page that proves TARP has not been recouped and claim I'm wrong?

TARP has not and will never be recouped. Ever.

The banks are still on the hook for an additional $1.5 Trillion. How much have your taxes gone up?

How much did your taxes go up to pay for the $5.3 trillion Fannie bailout?

How much did your taxes go up when the government printed $3 trillion to buy up toxic mortgage securities?

When was the TARP debt ever incurred by taxpayers?

[apocalypsehow]

151. You are wrong, but, like the issue above, prefer to hide in semantics, split hairs with definitions,

and then ask a bunch of irrelevant and non-responsive rhetorical questions only tangentially related to the issue at hand.

TARP has recouped more than 2/3rd's of the debt incurred, and how the rest will eventually be re-payed is outlined in the link provided, and which I would encourage you to study again. But my larger point was, of course, that those who benefited from TARP could at least claim that there was a mechanism in place to repay the money loaned, and, so far, at least two-thirds of it has been with a process in place to satisfy the rest; while, on the other hand, a student loan forgiveness scheme would not even plausibly be able to claim that a single penny would be repaid, and that, further would lead to the program being abolished to much right-wing glee.

But at this point you're just arguing for the sake of argument: when you were proven wrong in this very thread above, it was embarrassing, and you are simply extending an argument down here because you didn't get the better of it up there. Deal with my point here, to wit: a student loan "forgiveness" scheme would mean the end of the program, if it ever got past the Congress. Which (1) it won't so get past any Congress in our future, and (2) it would mean the end of the program if it did. That's the focus of this discussion.

[Luminous Animal]

121. Given that the OWS has issued no such demand and that even the sign

that he refers to carries no such demand, who is being dumb?

[EFerrari]

173. Dumb? Hardly. It's farsighted and practical given this economy.

All kinds of people should get debt adjustments to get this place back on a sure footing.

[Balbus]

128. That's cool. As long as I get my money back that I used to pay off my student loan.

I'm down.

[EFerrari]

171. Given that our owners have been allowing us to accumulate debt

for the last forty years in lieu of wages, it probably wouldn't be too hard to figure out a way to make some adjustment to yours that would be fair.

[stevenleser]

134. I'll tell you why. Because it is 99% money going straight to the 1% for something that should be

free and lands 99%ers in crushing debt for 20-40 years while their wealth goes straight to the 1%.

[Bonobo]

141. What's with the attempt to throw mud on the movement for one sign? nt

[dameocrat67]

144. most of the yuppy bond traders went to school in ny and california

when it was either free or cheap. it would be tremendously good for economy to relieve young people of their debts. they would have money to spend on real stuff.

[dameocrat67]

145. most of the yuppy bond traders went to school in ny and california

when it was either free or cheap. it would be tremendously good for economy to relieve young people of their debts. they would have money to spend on real stuff.

[minavasht]

146. When everybody has a bachelors degree

will a masters be required to flip burgers at McDonald's?

[coalition_unwilling]

166. No, the masters will let you prepare fries. A Ph.D. will be

required to flip burgers (and post-doc to work the front counter :)

[ellisonz]

158. The bigger problem is exorbiant interest rates...there should be a hard cap at 5%.

Most of mine are anywhere from 8 to 15% - that is outrageous.

[dkf]

161. Parsing the Data and Ideology of the We Are 99% Tumblr

One of the most fascinating things to come out of the current We Are 99%/Occupy Wall Street protests is the We Are 99% Tumblr.  At the site, people hold up signs that explain their current circumstances, and it tells the story of a whole range of Americans struggling in the Lesser Depression.  It is highly recommended.

DATA

The site features pictures of individuals holding their signs, and occasionally the tumblr reproduces the text of the signs themselves underneath the image as html text.  Sometimes the text under the image is blank, sometimes it is a different message, but often it is the sign itself.

In order to get a slightly better empirical handle on this important tumblr, I created a script designed to read all of the pages and parse out the html text on the site.  It doesn’t read the images (can anyone in the audience automate calls to an OCR?), just the html text.  After collecting all the text on all the pages, the code then goes through it to try to find interesting points.






“Children” has a few false positives in it (“It used to be my dream to help disabled children…”), but only a few.  Student loans are an overwhelming presence, but it often has the same terms repeated and giant dollar figures next to them so it sticks with you.  For all the people indentured with student loans there are almost as many worried about how they are going to take care of their kids.

http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2011/10/09/parsing-the-data-and-ideology-of-the-we-are-99-tumblr/

[Nevernose]

162. Hilary promised loan forgiveness for teachers

If they served at least ten years in public education. She called the current system "indentured servitude" and she was right. She cake to speak at the high school I worked at and it was the first time I'd seriously considered her (I'd actualy been an Obama supporter since '04, when Harry Reid first flew him as a candidate (no, it wasn't actually Dick Durbin).

One of my closest friends is a lawyer. As a deputy DA (and a super conservative one at that :) ), he makes with benefits close to 175k a year. And what does he pay in student loans? Nothing, because he went into public service. He'd be the very first one to tell you that I was smarter than him, had a better education than him, and had a harder job than him (you can probably surmise that I'm a high school teacher). Yet hos loans are forgiven due to "public service" and mine make me a wage slave.

Them there's the fact that so ,any colleges and universities that are for profit or have outrageous loan terms that they're essentially predatory. So yes, in some instances I'm for loan forgiveness.

Have y'all ever seen the stats on the Iraq War cost? We could have sent every graduating senior in America -- FOR AN ENTIRE GENERATION -- to university. For free. So instead of enslaving our children, I think demanding loan forgiveness is perfectly valid.

[white_wolf]

163. Wait I'm confused here.

A D.A. is considered a public servant and gets his loans forgiven, but a teacher isn't consider a public servant and has to pay off the full cost of their loans? That is just plain wrong. For what little it is worth, thank you. There aren't enough good teachers in the world and you all do a rather thankless job for little pay.

[JVS]

164. I have a bad feeling that schools would just fire everyone after 9 years.

[tammywammy]

190. You should read up on the student loan forgiveness that went into the healthcare bill

http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/LoanForgivenessv4.pdf

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/PSF.jsp

[flamingdem]

167. Older people are also suffering, just not as likely to camp out and protest

But the bail out needed is for them as well. For instance health insurance.

We should have Medicare for all to help the older folks who have also done
everything right too and seen their savings reduced and housing prices
drop. They don't have the time the young people have and the young people
will not be having the same struggle with health insurance (at least we can
hope this is so).

[mvd]

169. Agree. The programs need to be multi-faceted. Medicare for All would..

be one of the programs. Debt forgiveness/relief another. Foreclosure stoppages another. I don't care if it goes against the capitalist system. We need a strong dose of socialism mixed with any capitalism. Or else, we get what we see now.

[mvd]

168. It's like a depression to me. We need some New New Deal..

programs like debt forgiveness. It would be a move for the 99% for a change.

[eridani]

175. Student loan debt is $1 trillion, and amounts to a bubble

Graduates can't find the kinds of jobs that can pay that off.

[inna]

176. it's an important and valid issue; not within the top five imo though

k&r just for the heck of it; i just don't quite get why this op got so slammed


Edited to add: Signed, textbook case victim of predatory student loans here, who just recently - in her mid-thirties - finished paying.

[Safetykitten]

184. We are all going to eat that debt anyway, so I say cancel it. Economically it would help.

[B Calm]

192. I agree with the OP. This is fodder for the right-wingers. There

is much more important things to be fighting for. If they had JOBS, they could pay back those loans.

[geek_sabre]

193. Why not blame the colleges/universities?

Tuition rate increases have far exceeded inflation. The banks simply make it possible for students to overpay for a mediocre education.

To ensure access, colleges simply have to cut spending SOMEWHERE to make up for decreased government funding.

[workinclasszero]

195. OK, what's with the "Wall Street Bankster" demand that all their crooked debts be canceled?

I didn't hear the teapublicans raising hell about that at the time. Bush jr bailed them right out no problems with OUR money. No questions asked!