Please sign the forgiveness of student loan debt petition, and pass on this msg. further. Thanks.

[Cal33]

This is a most important petition calling for forgiveness of student loan debt ? a step that will
suddenly give new workers thousands of dollars more to spend for their daily necessities. There are
millions of former students still paying their load debts and can barely make their ends meet. The
forgiveness of their loan debts will stimulate the economy immediately.

The petition has over 450,000 signatures so far, making it one of the fastest-growing petitions we've seen in years. Will you help us get to over 500,000 signatures by signing ? and then sharing it with your friends?

http://www.moveon.org/r?r=263764&id=32074-18108948-m1U2x_x&t=1



Thanks!

[xchrom]

1. recommend

[MadHound]

2. Nice idea, but it's not going to happen

With over a trillion dollars in outstanding student debt, that amount of money simply won't be written off. To do so would kill a lot of the smaller lending institutions and crash the economy.

[Cal33]

4. It depends on how the bill is worded - giving certain protections to smaller lending institutions -

before the President signs it into law. You brought up a good point.

[MadHound]

5. Do you honestly think that our bought and paid for government would pass such a law?

It simply isn't going to happen.

Look, I support such a movement, and signed the petition, but I also recognize the political reality of the situation. American financial institutions have effectively protected themselves through a campaign of buying politicians, up to and including the President.

This movement for student loan debt forgiveness will never see the light of day in DC.

[Cal33]

10. The only reasonable thing to do is to try our best, then wait and see.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

73. Horrible idea

That money wasn't created by banks out of thin air. It came from depositors which include, on bulk, ordinary people's savings and checking.

That money was loaned from your checking account on the assumption the borrower would pay it back before you went out to buy groceries and pay the heating bill or make employee payroll. There will be no "debt forgiveness" only debt-shifting. Maybe the people making loans will get more money back to spend elsewhere but the threshhold banks use to remain sufficiently capitalized will take a serious hit.

What will make it worse is once people learn their deposits are being loaned out with no chance of repayment they will stop depositing in banks, period.

The only option after that is to make up the difference using the federal printing press. Print too much money or issue so many bonds that people doubt the government's ability to repay and you will have A) hyper-inflation or B) hyper-interest rates, which is just hyper-inflation one-step removed. That will chew-up whatever end-user savings you envision and it will hurt everyone just to pretended to have benefitted a few.

Look, I understand. I have roughly $20,000 in debt for my degree in English and literature. Could I use that money back every month? Heck yeah! I'm an admin assistant. It's not glamorous (although my boss is pretty cool for an old guy) and truth be told I wouldn't have any job prospects if my MBA-toting employer could write better but he's a horrible writer and so he pays me lots of money to make him look smart (and other duties I've since assumed). I'm lucky. I'm also lucky I don't have to work as my husband's income would support us nicely; but he works like an animal to do it.

As nice as it sounds, if you borrowed $100 from a guy he isn't going to just up and forget you promised to give him $105 back by the end of the month, especially since the $100 you borrowed came from some other guy's paycheck and that guy was saving for his kid's college.

[Cal33]

78. The lenders don't really lose, since the loans are backed by the federal gov't. In

short, we the tax-payers are backing up the student loans.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

79. Yes. And that means we the taxpayers would assume more public debt

As has been pointed out up-thread that amounts to another cool trillion. We cannot keep assuming more debt without raising the rate of return on the federal securities we issue. If we do that interest rates will increase and that will lead to inflation and a tightening of credit elsewhere.

The forgiven tuition loan of today is the higher interest business loan of tomorrow which in turn becomes the higher point-of-sale price the day after tomorrow.

Your other solution is to print money and throw it into the streets. For a discussion on how that turns out in the modern world I refer you to the Weimar Republic.

Money does not appear or disappear at whim. It either has to mean something or it is valueless and your ecnomoy crashes.

[pipi_k]

11. What sort of "certain protections"?

And would that mean some people with student loans through smaller institutions who might need the debt amnesty more than some people with student debt through larger institutions would end up suffering...or being completely ineligible... because of certain protections?

How fair would that be?

My point here is that in order to be fair, this has to end up hurting one side or another.

Either all students get amnesty, hurting the smaller lending institutions...

Or only some students get debt amnesty, hurting them, but helping the smaller institutions.

[Cal33]

17. Let me make a stab in the dark at attempting a solution: How about

averaging the total student loan, and dividing it up among
the lending institutions in such a way that the smaller institutions
would be paying a lower percentage? This is just a suggestion.

I am sure CPAs and other financial experts could come up with better ideas.
(In my opinion, since the large banks have been ripping off the American
people for decades - especially the last decade - they should be made to
pay back some, if not all, of their ill-gotten gains, plus interest).

[pipi_k]

37. But that sounds like

going out to dinner with friends, having a sandwich while others have prime rib, then averaging out the bill and dividing it up.

Why should the guy having a sandwich pay a share of someone else's prime rib?


I don't see where there is any really fair way to do this, and I doubt very much Congress would be able to come up with a fair way, either.

[sweetapogee]

48. of course

and what do you about those who make payments on their student loans or those who have paid theirs off already? What about those who went to a state school or community college instead of going to a private Ivy league school because they didn't want to have a big loan to pay off?

[Cal33]

52. The guy who ordered a sandwich should be paying the smaller percentage - his percentage. :)

[Cal33]

55. The student who went to a state or community college paid less to begin with., so the

amount "forgiven" should also be less.

By the way, I sent a msg. to you by mistake. It was a reply to msg. 37. Sorry.

[lolly]

98. The point would be

That many students who could go to expensive schools forgo them because they choose not to go 80K into debt.

So, Susie gets her degree from Podunk Community College

But Josie decides to go for the debt, gets a degree from Stanford, then.... gets all her debt forgiven.

Susie feels like she's been had. If she had known the Stanford degree would cost no more than the Idaho State College degree, she would've accepted that admission to Stanford.

[Cal33]

53. The reply I sent to you was wrongly sent to post #48, right below yours. Sorry.

[Uben]

12. government doesn't have the power to do it either

We don't need to forgive debt to solve this problem, we need jobs! If these people can work, they can pay their debts like the rest of us....if they have jobs. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. The president is trying to drive home this exact point, but guess who stands in the way? Yep, I know you know.

Maybe we can give these students more time to pay the loans off, at least until this jobs crisis is alleviated. I will never favor debt forgiveness. That is just giving relief to a select portion of the populous and leaving the rest to bear the burden.
If you have a debt, you pay it. It's the American way. We can't forgive mortgage debt either for the same reason. The solution is jobs that pay a living wage with decent benefits. Lower healthcare costs have to be part of the solution as well.

[Cal33]

19. Giving them a longer time and also at a lower interest rate would certainly

also be of help. This would allow them to have more money to
spend for their needs, which would help to stimulate and grow
our national economy.

[coalition_unwilling]

23. By God, let's bring back debtors' prisons while we're at it. And

indentured servitude. And let's just render all bankruptcy codes inoperative, since (as you put it), "If you have a debt, you pay it. It's the American way."

N.B. Student loans are generally not dischargeable through bankruptcy. They should be, imho.

[Tippy]

27. Corrections Corporation of America would love to lock them up...

[Uben]

28. That's what I was taught.....

....you pay your debts. I certainly think there is a need for bankruptcy laws in certain circumstances, but this is not one of them. BTW, I am paying off student loans myself, and I am 56! Like a lot of Americans, I have been laid-off several times and have had to draw unemployment to get by until I could find a job. I have had to borrow money for college courses, to pay off medical bills and even to just buy a few gifts for my kids at Christmas, but I have always paid it back. If you don't, why would anyone want to ever loan you anything again? Credit is a priviledge, not a right. If you abuse it, you lose it.

[coalition_unwilling]

45. You grant that there is a "need for bankruptcy laws in certain

circumstances." What, pray tell, might those "certain circumstances" be?

[Lance_Boyle]

40. How can you 'give back' the education if the debt is discharged through BK?

Bankruptcy isn't a means to keep everything you ever bought on credit that you now can't pay for - you generally have to give up what you got that you couldn't pay for. How do you do that with an education? And since we'll probably agree that you can't (short of lobotomy), why should people get to keep the education they borrowed to pay for when they can't keep the manufacturing equipment or farm machinery they borrowed to pay for?

[coalition_unwilling]

46. Oh, man, do you need an education in what bankruptcy is for. Hint:

it's not so that "you generally have to give up what you got that you couldn't pay for." Bankruptcy is a process that gets the person using it protection from creditors.

Why did the government loan money to students if it could not ensure they would have a way to pay it back? Used to be that lenders lent at their own risk. I guess that doesn't apply any longer.

[Lance_Boyle]

65. So I can go out today and finance a new Maserati

then declare BK tomorrow and keep my new car?

I think I'm not the one here who needs a lesson. Bankruptcy is not about keeping the stuff you borrowed to pay for then defaulted on.

[coalition_unwilling]

68. Generally speaking, car loans are secured by the car itself, so

you're trotting out a red herring here. IOW, you default on the car loan and the dealer or lender repo's the car.

One declares bankruptcy generally speaking when one's liabilties exceed one's assets and there exists no way to satisfy creditors. A bankruptcy secures for the person or entity declaring it protection from creditors.

So the real question is why student loans enjoy (or whether they should enjoy) some special standing as a type of liability not deserving of bankruptcy protection. Please stop clouding the issue with your Red Maserati Herring.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

81. In bankruptcy the debt is either restructured or the assets are sold off

and the lien-holders get first dibs at any generated revenue from the selling-off. Discharging debt is an absolute last resort. They'll take your house for your credit card debt if they can. My dad builds houses. They're very nice houses. If someone could get one if his houses and then declare bankruptcy and keep the house I'm sure they would if they could. But he has his own debts and employee payroll he has to make and he's not going to make his employees build houses for free (it seems they have their own expenses too). You either pay for the house or he's taking it back and selling to to someone who will pay for it.

In contrast, you cannot repossess and sell-off an education. If you spend $60,000 getting an MBA you cannot declare bankruptcy to discharge that debt then suddenly go to work managing a business for plenty of money but no education payments.

[coalition_unwilling]

84. Why do I feel like I'm being tag-teamed here? If you spend $60,000

getting an MBA and the only jobs open upon your graduation are burger flipping at Mickey D's (thereby ensuring an inadequate income stream to make even interest payments), what is the debtor to do, be hounded mercilessly for the rest of his or her life by soulless creditors? In other words, how much suffering are you willing to inflict upon people to satisfy the demands of your abstract system? It sounds like you're willing to inflict a lot of suffering to make sure debts are paid. That's OK, except that many times bankruptcies result in liquidations for pennies or even nothing on the dollar. I know because I've worked for a couple companies that declared bankruptcy and went into liquidation. Except there was nothing to liquidate and bond- and stock-holders received nothing. (Internet boom and bust, ca. 2000)

SO WHY ARE YOU CARVING OUT A SPECIAL CATEGORY FOR STUDENT LOANS?????

[Nuclear Unicorn]

94. You aren't being tag-teamed and sorry if it feels that way.

I'm too unassuming to be threatening.

I guess my point is -- if people can pay their loans they ought to and if BKs are dispensed too easily then people will take their education and run. Sorry about what you went through c. 2000 but think about it: the investors in those dot-coms were investing in services which are traditionally very risky as they provide no tangible assets for liquidation. That strikes me as the modern-day equivalent of the Dutch Tulip fad. What are you going to do when people decide they don't want tulips anymore? As if Beanie Babies weren't a harbinger!

Anyhoo.

And I don't think the system is so abstract. Loans and investments have to have an expectation of return otherwise they cease being loans and investments and become straight expenses. If, at that point of determination, you ask me to buy something I may ask you, "Do I want to buy it?" I need construction project managers and compliance managers and a ton of workers and payroll admin types and whatnot. I'll gladly pay for those because they're doing things for my clients that my clients want to see done, i.e. building a manufacturing business.

Dutch tulip farmers? I don't need those so much so I might be disinclined to pay for those. That doesn't make me anti-farmer or anti-pretty flower; it's just that the combination of those two things don't have as much value for me as meeting the payroll of the workers building the factory.

So, I'm being asked to buy a trillion dollars in outstanding student loans. I ask, "Why should I?"

"'Cause some guy got an MBA," is not an answer. The cost of forgiving his and all the other loans is going to drive up the cost my boss uses to get loans to make payroll and other expenses. Drive it up too far and there won't be a payroll issue because our clients will pull the deal once it gets too expensive. If you want to see debt-collectors make money harrassing people imagine our few dozen employees suddenly being left without a paycheck. Are they going to be asked to accept that because a guy got an MBA and couldn't pay for his loan? Why should they suffer? Where is their social justice?

And sorry, my boss is not an evil capitalist. Yeah, he lives better than me but if you seized his worldy assets and pay you wouldn't cover 10% of our payroll for 1 month.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents -- interest free even! If it still seems like a tag team I'll bow out. I'd rather have a friend than a fight.

:hi:

[ChazII]

99. Well said. n/t

[Pigheaded]

147. Instead of an MBA, PhD or BS

They should have thought of welding.

There are jobs all over here for stick and TIg welders making damn good money.

PH

[coalition_unwilling]

111. Your final sentence reminds me of some words of wisdom from

Abe Lincoln: "The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him a friend."

I agree whole heartedly that (to quote you) "if people can pay their loans, they should." And I understand (I think) your general point about the 'moral hazard' involved in making loans when the borrowers begin to believe they will not have to pay them back. But the question is whether student loans already made should be dischargeable through bankruptcy. (They currently are not and have not been for about the past 10-15 years, IIRC). I think they should be or we have indentured servitude. (Someone in another thread, I think, brought to my attention that some loans are now forgiven in full after 20 years if regular payments have been made for the duration. So, at least now, the indentured servitude has a fixed period of 20 years.)

Yes, the first internet boom-bust cycle is eerily reminiscent of the Dutch tulip craze, at least for investors if not for us low-level serfs actually writing code, making sales and providing technical support. But the debtors in those cases were allowed to go bankrupt with no 20-year sentence hanging over their heads. So why carve out this special category for students?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

112. Wow! I've been compared to Lincoln! I'm going to quit while I'm ahead

:toast:

[Cal33]

56. A human life in the old days wasn't worth much, was it? But money did. And that's the

system the right-wingers would love to return to. Their mentalities are
at least 300 years behind the times.

[Fire Walk With Me]

50. Do something, anything, to demand positive change. That is how change occurs.

No energy put into positive change is ever wasted.

Signed petition, thanks!

[saras]

71. It's GOING to happen, whether there's a LAW or not. The loans simply aren't going to be paid.

[GReedDiamond]

131. FRAUD is a centerpiece of the Student Loan scam...

...as the victim of trade school fraud, I was victimized by several predatory third-party, for-profit collection agencies for something like sixteen-plus years, for payment which was 400% over the original loan.

And that was after having Federal tax refunds garnished for a decade.

Eventually, I was able to prove the fraud involved, and the loan was discharged.

I was also refunded the tax garnishments, but it took sixteen years, and there was no interest in the refund.

[DoBotherMe]

3. k & r

[Scuba]

6. DU seems undecided on this topic...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2135847

[Lyric]

25. Sadly, much of that indecision is embarassingly self-centered.

"Why should THEY get something that *I* didn't get?!" tends to be at the heart of it.

What is that, other than a twisted-around version of "I got mine, fuck you"?

[county worker]

34. Aren't both sides self centered? Your statement is sure chutzpah.

[EFerrari]

39. There needn't be two polarized sides.

Credit card debt, mortgages, student loans -- most people have one of those. We've been encouraged to rack up debt in lieu of wage increases for forty years. FORTY YEARS. A write down of all three would include many Americans.

[lynne]

61. Asking for student loan forgiveness is -

- a twisted-around version of "I got my education, fuck you as you're not getting repaid and the hell with that contract I voluntarily signed."

Can we do that for a car loan, too? My car is 10 years old.

[Cal33]

72. I think too many of us are asking for a law that is perfectly fair. Humans are

not capable of enacting such a law. I think the main thought
behind forgiving the student loan petition is the $1 trillion
it would put into the pockets of people who would spend the
money for their daily necessities. This would help the
national economy to pick up, and pick up rather quickly.

Since the lenders are backed up by the government, the $1
trillion would be paid by us tax-payers anyway. Of course,
hopefully the law could be enacted in such a way that a part
of the money would be footed by the big lenders, for a change.
The chances for this latter to happen are rather slim, I agree.

[hfojvt]

100. really, just let me know before it happens

I want to get a new Jetta and then demand "auto loan forgiveness"

Bailouts for me street not wall street!!

[a la izquierda]

127. Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying.

:eyes: And the sarcasm thingy.

No, actually what I'm saying is this: I mortgaged my future, through 3 state schools, for a PhD. And I will never, ever make $100K. I'm okay with that, I chose a career I love. And I'm actually happy. But I'm goddamned tired of useless democrats and republicans screwing the middle and lower classes so that rich folks pay nothing in taxes. My uncle's tax cut could pay my loans. In one year. That's obscene. He sure as hell doesn't need that money (as he's admitted about a thousand times).
My foreign friends laugh at me when I tell them how much I've had to shell out and borrow for school. Greatest country on earth my ass.

Sorry your car's 10 years old. Mine is 14. It probably won't make it through an Ohio winter.

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. How much would that increase the national debt?

[IndyPragmatist]

9. about $1.1 trillion

Which of course would just be another bailout to the banks.

[Puzzledtraveller]

51. exactly, and those loans were other peoples money

like it or not. #1 reason I have not gone back to finish degree, I will not take on large loans unless there is a very good chance I can make good on that investment, as it is now, this economy says no.

[IndyPragmatist]

8. Another trillion dollars to the banks! YAY!

This is just another bank bailout. I think we would be better served getting the cost of education under control. We should subsidize tuition more instead of sending more than 1 trillion dollars to Salle Mae and the other private banks.

[girl gone mad]

57. The banks will get bailed out either way.

Almost all student loans are federally guaranteed.

People need to face reality. Debts that can't be paid back won't be paid back. Time to write them down.

[lolly]

13. Well, devil's advocate here

What about those of us who paid for our own (or our child's) education?

I was lucky that my husband and I both work and had enough money to pay for in-state tuition at a state university, but if I had though the debt would be forgiven, I would have told my kids to just borrow the money and I would have bought a new car or completed some much-needed remodeling on the house.

Yes, I know that education is much more expensive than it used to be, and it's much harder to pay for, but I don't get just telling people who did pay for it that they were suckers.

Maybe a method to pay down/pay off the loan with public service? Or a moratorium on payments until the recession is over?

But, no, I'm not going to tell people they should just piss off the 80K they borrowed to go to a private university.

[pipi_k]

15. I said this the other day...

I hadn't paid on a student loan for nearly ten years, but eventually I did, and I wasn't exactly rolling in money, either.

[nadine_mn]

21. heh - I guess I am one you are talking about

My parents did not contribute one penny to my college or law school education - none. I worked and took out loans and pissed away scholarships.

I realize now at the ripe old age of 39 that when I started college at 17 and law school at 21, my mental illness was in full force (I have borderline personality disorder, PTSD, depression, etc from 17 yrs of emotional and physical abuse). I had no idea what I was doing. My school counselors didn't help at all with scholarships or explaining financial aid - just set the forms in front me to sign.

Once I got done with law school and took a breath from all my self-destructive behavior - I was over 80k in debt, and realized the last thing I wanted to be was a lawyer. I instead started working as a domestic violence advocate and later with elder abuse victims. But old demons come back, and I never last at a job for long. I am finally working with a therapist I trust and trying to get a handle on my medications so I can function. My loans have now increased to over $120k. Before I was fired from my last job where I was making good money ($33k a year) and could afford the $1k a month in payments, I consolidated my loans. I got fired, the economy went to shit (and the so did funding for non-profits) and now here I am 3 yrs later, still deferring loans I took out in the 90's.

I would love to work off the debt - I would seriously work for free to help low-income people with legal issues (I am married and have someone who can pay the bills) in exchange for loan forgiveness (yes it may take a few years).

I would gladly sign on to that type of legislation and I know I am not the only one.

[phleshdef]

14. I still owe about 24,000 out of the 30 some I borrowed and I'd prefer to pay it back.

I borrowed it. I got a great education out of it. I make a fairly decent salary because of it. I believe I owe it to the American people to continue paying it back until its paid in full.

I'm sorry but I think if we are going to blow an insane amount of money on something, it should go to a national infrastructure/jobs program and not forgiving student loan debt.

[Romulox]

16. Student loan forgiveness would give recent grads a 5-10 year head start over earlier grads

Fairness issue?

[mainer]

18. Kids at expensive private colleges will be the winners

while kids who conscientiously opted for in-state and community colleges will wonder why they bothered to take the thrifty option. Isn't this just rewarding the elite?

[Cal33]

33. Human laws are not perfect, nor will they ever be. By the way, what would you think of

the education system of Germany and France?:

There is no tuition, all the way from Kindergarten through a Ph.D.
Of course, you have to pay for your own living expenses and books.
So, money plays a smaller role in these countries.

The state plays some role in regulating how many engineers, scientists,
doctors, lawyers...etc... they graduate each year, according to the
needs of the country. In other words, they graduate only the best.
They don't hesitate about flunking anyone. There isn't much of a sense
of being a failure, either, since so many students don't graduate,
especially in those popular fields.

I heard that in Germany, physics was such a popular field (this was about
10 years ago) that at one university, the professor said to the new first-
year students, that only 5% of them would graduate into the second year.

I don't think physics is such a popular field in our country, is it?

By the way, there are no private universities in these countries. We
inherited our system from the British.

[mainer]

42. I wish education were less expensive for everyone

but this petition rewards private college students over community college students. Which is rewarding those who already have advantages.

This is not Europe, by the way. This is the U.S., and we happen to have private universities. Unless you intend to outlaw those, these inequities will exist even if all debt is forgiven.

[Lyric]

20. At the very LEAST, the law should change so that student loan debt can be discharged via bankruptcy

We might not manage to pass total debt forgiveness (although I support that)...but we CAN at least fix things so that bankrupt people can discharge that debt just like any other debt.

[undeterred]

41. That's true.

They changed the rules after some people took out their loans.

[Lance_Boyle]

44. That would be unfair to those who go through BK and don't get to keep

the things they borrowed to obtain and were unable to repay. For an example, say you and I are fresh out of high school. You decide to go to college and borrow to fund your education. I decide to start a business and borrow to obtain the necessary equipment. We both borrow the same amount. 5 years later you have your degree and I have my business. We are both repaying our loans. Then we both suffer some economic catastrophe that forces us into bankruptcy. I lose every piece of business equipment I financed, and you get to walk out with your free education? It's pretty clear something's not right about that.

[fishwax]

49. I don't see that as any less fair than the current situation

where the guy with the business gets to essentially start over (with the benefit of several years of experience he gained running a business), but the guy with the formal education remains saddled to his debt.

[Lance_Boyle]

66. The guy with the business needs a new loan for new equipment to start over.

That doesn't happen after bankruptcy. The guy with the formal education doesn't have to go to school all over again. That's the difference.

[fishwax]

69. He gets to start over without debt -- he may have difficulty starting his own business, but so will

the guy with the formal education (at least until each can either save funds or re-establish their credit).

[Lance_Boyle]

74. The guy with the education debt gets to keep what he couldn't pay for

while the guy with business loan debt doesn't.

[fishwax]

77. I understand that. But I don't see it as any less fair than the current system.

[Lance_Boyle]

80. I see.

Under the current system nobody gets to keep the thing they financed but couldn't finish making payments on. They either lose what was financed or they must keep paying their debt. This is the baseline, which may not be entirely fair, but for the purpose of this discussion I'll call it fair in that nobody gets anything for free. Under the proposed idea to discharge student loan debt some borrowers get to keep the things they couldn't finish making payments on and are absolved of the responsibility of making those payments, while the other person is similarly absolved of the responsibility of making payments but loses the thing they financed. To my mind, that's less fair.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

82. He may get to start over debt-free but his credit is shot because he has a recent BK

It'll take him 7 to 10 years to lose that mark on his report and even then he has to work his butt off making sure he makes all the right moves to improve his credit. Until then the banks will laugh him back out the door.

Meanwhile, if the student loan is forgiven the MBA goes back to work making 6-digits. You don't need a credit report to be a mid-level corporate manager. Meanwhile the would-be business owner sloshes it out in the trenches for a decade.

If the MBA makes enough money to pay his loan, make him.

[fishwax]

83. That would also be true of the student if he went through bankruptcy n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

87. How would a bankruptcy keep an MBA from counting beans?

Honest question.

[fishwax]

90. I don't know when the guy became an MBA

I mean, we could also assume that the businessman has squirreled away a large safety net in offshore accounts from profits made as a result of horrendously unfair labor practices, but I'm not sure what the point would be.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

95. Well, the point is an education cannot be liquidated.

The primary point of bankruptcy is to protect creditors, not allow borrowers to keep what they borrowed.

[fishwax]

101. Yes, I understand that an education cannot be liquidated. I don't agree that allowing discharge of

student loan debt via bankruptcy would be more unfair than the current system.

On that, apparently, we will continue to disagree. :) :hi:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

104. Except someone deposited money into the bank that made the loan

Money that first had to be earned before it could be deposited. The money that is so casually given away belongs to people who deposited their paychecks, daily receipts and savings. Either the depositors lose their money outright or the fed drives us into hyper-inflation which still cuts into the depositor's buying power.

At least with liquidated assets there is a margin of recovery that offsets the potential for default. Risk has to be commensurate with the overall rate of return or else the borrower must assume the lion's share of the risk.

[Logical]

109. Way too logical for this post. +1000

[InvisibleTouch]

63. Yes.

I never understood why only student loan was exempt. With the absurd rise of college costs in recent years, this is a crushing burden to start out under. I was lucky in that my undergrad/grad expenses were covered by scholarships, grants, and stipends, but I feel for the kids coming out of school these days. I'm all for lifting their debt and getting them off to a good start.

[LynneSin]

86. Now that is something that could make sense to me

thank you for logic!

[white_wolf]

22. Well the government could buy the loans. Hell, we spend that much on wars.

It's time we ended the damn wars and start using our money to help people. After we pay off the debts, we need to create a fully public funded higher education system. Education should not be for profit.

[Cal33]

38. Yes, such as the way they do it in Germany and France. Please see my post 33 in this thread.

[Lyric]

24. Signed and reposted to Facebook

:kick: & rec

[Cal33]

26. Many thanks.

[county worker]

29. Is that fair to people who had loans and paid them off or to future students who will need loans ?

I don't know about this. What the end result is some people getting free or drastically reduced cost educations while others must pay full fair.

I would be for deferring the payments without accumulated interest until the students are able to pay but I am not so sure about debt forgiveness.

Why don't we forgive other people's loans like credit cards and car loans? Why just students?

Also in case you don't know it, debt forgiveness is taxable income in the year of the forgiveness so you will be giving the students an federal and state income tax liability.

I don't think this was thought through well enough.

[ileus]

30. K&R'd

[Turn CO Blue]

31. The congress has essential "given"trillions to banks, oil&gas, insurance

and big business subsidies and tax breaks for large corporations and billionaires.

We borrowed around $30K over a period of four years in original dollars and will wind up paying ten times that by the time it's over.

The consolidation part of the student loan industry is a for-profit racket!

[Cal33]

35. Right you are. A new law could at least lower the interest rate on loan to students

to a reasonable and affordable one.

[Tippy]

32. The old saying is true if it sounds to good to be true it probably is

What I am referring to is those so called institutions making loans to students who they knew could not pay them back thus by creating a new BUBBLE....Just like in the housng market..Any one who thinks it can not happen forget it it, already has....

$830 Billion in Student Loans: The New Mortgage Bubble

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8949655

All the so called univrsities like Pheonix need to be shut down. Why do we need corporat schools and universities any way....

[dionysus]

36. what they really need to do is at least allow you to refinance.

the scam is if you've consolidated your loans, you're basically stuck at that rate for life.


when i consolidated it was about 6%, which is really high now, but was the lowest it had been for a while at the time. they were advertising consolidation loans at 2.5%, when i applied they told me "well, since you already consolidated, you have to have the same rate". They will shave a tiny bit here and there "we'll cut .25 if you pay online and another .25 after you paid on time for a year"

it's a scam. i don't mind paying back money i borrowed, at least let me refinance the fucking loan at current rates, dammit.

[geardaddy]

43. Done, K and R.

[Cal33]

47. Many thanks.

[HappyMe]

54. Lowering interest rates,

deferring payment, reasonable monthly payments - okay. Forgiving the entire debt - no.

[Cal33]

58. That's another way of looking at it. But, whatever the system, not everyone will be satisfied.

[badtoworse]

59. This idea is self-serving and unfair on a number of levels.

I could never support this. A number of posters have indentified good reasons why it is a bad idea, so I won't reiterate.

[lynne]

60. Only if you sign one to release me from my mortgage and let me keep my house -

- a student loan is an option that some choose. Times are tough which is why my son chose NOT to get a student loan. He's taking some time off to work for money for school.

I've been laid off. My husband was laid off, too. We are now gainfully "underemployed" part time. We still have necessities, too, and no one is forgiving our debts.

Sorry, but I'm not signing.

[Spike89]

62. Much rather see programs started

Fund the Pell grant program to seriously lower the cost of post secondary education and make sure it applies to vocational, alternative, and other training institutions. Also consider "employment credits" for young (or displaced workers) where each has a cache of grants that an employer can tap into.

I'd want to see Pell grants available for everyone (no means testing) but at a flat rate, ideally about the cost of the average public college degree. If you want to pay more for a private or elite school, fine. If you don't need/use it, the amount goes into your employment credit account.

The first part helps future graduates, the second part helps those with the debt get jobs and be able to pay off their loans.

The problem I see with the tuition forgiveness idea (yes, I have $30K+ in college loan debt) is that it won't spur the economy much at all (even ignoring the potential damage it could do). People saddled with student debt and currently making payments are somewhat likely to shift that money into buying additional goods, but those currently in default or being deferred would simply have no debt, but not a single penny extra to spur the economy. Worse, even for those paying their loans, we're talking about pretty low interest, long-term loans. So, if we spend $1 trillion dollars, the actual money thrown into the economy this year would only be a maximum 3-10% of that and more likely much less.

I'm all for incentives and government spending to help pull out of this recession, but there are so many better and more efficient ways to invest $1 trillion (and of course, we'll never get that much through congress).

[TwilightGardener]

64. Unless a debt is from a situation or contract not freely entered into, no.

[Bill McBlueState]

67. all debt should be wiped out every 50 years

at least according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_%28biblical%29">some old book I read.

[Desertrose]

70. K&R Done!

[Honeycombe8]

75. Why? To give "new workers" more $? Why not just send out checks to EVERYONE?

That'd be more fair. That would REALLY pump more $$ into the economy, including "new workers."

I don't see any purpose in forgiving student loans. In fact, it would be unfair to the ones who paid their loans back. ESPECIALLY since some of the people who have student debt are WEALTHY. I know them. They earn six figure salaries and owe over $200,000 in student loans.

[TwilightGardener]

76. Yep. Anyone who went to law or med school, or a private school, would certainly love this, LOL.

[LynneSin]

85. I'm a compassionate person but really?

I paid back my loans. So did millions of other former college students.

Suddenly the new crop gets a free pass especially those who chose to go to more expensive private schools instead of lower cost state schools.

Sorry, not signing this one. This petition just makes us look silly.

I'll fight for bad penalties and outrages rates on banking laws. But for this, it seems like a bunch of kids who want to get out of paying the debt they incurred.

[MISSDem]

88. explain please why these people should get a free

education?

[Matariki]

91. Because a civilized country values education

and having higher education costs be out of reach for poor and middle class people is nothing more than a caste system designed to "keep people in their place".

Having huge numbers of young people start out their adult lives seriously in debt is very destabilizing for society as a whole. It benefits EVERYONE to have a system of affordable higher education. It's the only thing that will keep America competitive going forward.

[white_wolf]

96. Exactly.

I swear some of the posters here have a very right wing mindset when it comes to education. "I paid for mine and no one helped me,so why should anyone else get help?"

[lolly]

102. That's a distortion of the argument

My own preference would be to take that money and pump it into public colleges, universities, and community colleges.

As it stands, this idea means that kids who decided to go to expensive private colleges get a free ride. Public colleges that serve the middle class will still be struggling.

I'm all for restructuring student loans, but this isn't the best use of government money.

[Matariki]

117. I think that's a really good example of CLASS WARFARE

The best schools and colleges only being affordable to people, who by accident of birth, were born into wealthy families.

The rich get the best education and consequently the highest paying jobs and well fuck everyone else.

[mainer]

120. And you want to pay for educating the rich?

By giving them free tuition?

[Matariki]

125. What I want for America is for college to be affordable

with entry to the best colleges based on academic merit and not how rich a person's parents are.

What I'd like to see is an increase in Pell Grants, student aide, and low interest government loans AND a decrease in tuition in general.

At the k-12 level I'd like to see a fair distribution of resources to schools which is NOT based on how wealthy the school district's property tax base is.

[lolly]

129. Why assume "best" = "private?"

Just for starters, if the public colleges and universities are falling behind, it's not because public is inherently weaker. It's because money has been pulled out and class sizes are going up, facilities are being neglected, and salaries are falling (except for administrators, but that's another story).

As for the "best/private" schools basing admission solely on academic merit--some do. Some don't. The essence of "private" is that they can choose to admit students based on any criteria they want. If they need more cellists for their top-notch symphony orchestra, then they'll accept the best cellists, not the ones with the highest SAT scores.

It's generally public universities that are required to put all or most of the emphasis on academic merit. But with resources dwindling, they have room for fewer and fewer of even the brightest students.

[Matariki]

126. ps - also to answer your question - yes.

why not? This country spends a tremendous amount of money blowing things up. A better priority for our nation's resources would be education.

Tell me, why shouldn't it be inexpensive or free?

[Logical]

110. Because some liberals think all loans are evil and everything should be free!

[wickerwoman]

133. Because they're going to change your diapers when you're old,

and design the buildings you live in and the bridges you drive over every day so they don't collapse and create the tax base that pays for your kid's education and your retirement and Medicare and develop the renewable energy technologies that will prevent you having to live in, effectively, the Stone Age in thirty years.

They didn't crash the economy and disappear all the jobs. They did everything right. They worked hard. They were told that education would help them find good jobs and that turned out to be bullshit.

Assuming you're over forty and live in a first world country, you've used up *well* over your share of the world's cheap energy resources. Kids graduating today are going to live in smaller houses, eat less meat, have less stuff, won't be able to afford a car or their own home, and at the current rate probably will never see a dime of social security.

Honestly, there's not much we're leaving them with. I think a free education to help them deal with impacts of climate change and peak oil is the least we can do.

[juajen]

134. Because of the current economic circumstances. Isn't that obvious

If you were able to pay back yours, that's wonderful; but I know many graduates who are flipping burgers or the equivalent. There are no jobs. What about this do you not understand? People who wanted to teach can't find teaching jobs, and the list goes on. If student loans were eligible for bankruptcy, financial aid would be harder to get, and not given out like toothpicks. Students are too young to make good decisions, and too often, their parents are in such dire circumstances that they think the education is a good bet for their child. In other words, lots of loans with no way out. Doesn't this sound diabolical. It's a racket, and it needs to be stopped. There should be a cap on how much you can borrow, period.

[Matariki]

89. For starters we need to get rid of the bankruptcy and statute of limitations clauses.

It's sickening to think people struggling financially will have decades-old student loans (plus HUGE amounts of interest and fees) taken from their Social Security.

And if we were actually smart as a nation, we'd value education and realize how beneficial an educated populace is for society as a whole.

[MISSDem]

92. I will if I can have my mortgage and car

loans forgiven.

[Matariki]

93. I'm a member of MoveOn but I have a question

Does anyone know if *any* of their online petitions have done anything to make a difference?

[Abin Sur]

97. Not a chance. I've paid back every penny (plus interest) of every loan I've ever taken out.

Why shouldn't they?

[Logical]

108. +1000...many here are in the mode that all loans are evil. It makes liberals look.....

like idiots.

[Generic Brad]

128. I worked my ass off to pay off my student loans

I delayed buying a car, a home, furniture, etc until my loans were paid off. It sucked, but it can be done. That was the price I paid for taking out the loans in the first place.

The terms of the loans or consolidation rules should be changed, but I strongly disagree with loan forgiveness. That penalizes those who played by the rules.

[JoePhilly]

103. No. Let them consolidate at a very low rate ... extend the period ...

But you can not cancel them, unless you want the middle class fighting itself.

[Gin]

105. Suzie Orman said that it's in the works to allow student debt

as part of a BK.....she said it won't be too long...keep paying the loans as much as you can...relief is in sight.

just sayin....

[Matariki]

118. what's a BK?

and who's Suzie Orman?

[Gin]

122. (BK) bankruptcy.....she is a money guru...gives lots of financial advice

all over the TV..shows...books....videos...seminars

[minavasht]

106. I'm with you!

But why stop here?
What's wrong with mortgage forgiveness? Imagine all the money people will have to spend on necessities?

Then there are all those nasty car loans - why don't we forgive them too, after all it will save a bunch of money to spend on more important stuff?
Credit card debt? Sure, scratch that off too, after all it will give even more money to spend!

It's for he children, you know.

The same children, that will have to already deal with 14 trillion fucking dollars of debt. They can do it, they are the future.

I say, you make a mistake, you pay for it. It will teach you to be more careful with your decisions next time. Taking responsibility for your actions is what people need to learn.

[juajen]

135. In bankruptcy, there are secured loans and unsecured loans.

Perhaps a small bit of searching and you might understand bankruptcy laws. Cars, jewelry and/or expensive furniture that is still being paid for can be repossessed, or sold to pay creditors. Unsecured loans, like school loans, would be discharged,also credit card debt, medical bills, etc. You have to provide financial statements, list assets and verify your property and list all assets and debts. Some things you can keep, for instance a car that is paid for and not worth a lot and is needed for work; personal clothing and furniture that has no great monetary value, tools needed for work, etc. I worked for a bankruptcy attorney. Man, education is a wonderful thing, unless it makes you an indentured servant. Too much money is being lent, and times are way too hard to expect young people to carry this load when some of them are living in their parent's basement with a car and insurance to pay for, and no food money, which is why they are living at home. What about "NO JOBS" do you people not understand? Also, you don't just walk in and say "Gee man, I don't want to pay my bills any more. Put me in bankruptcy. All of this legal stuff also has to be approved constantly by a Referee in Bankruptcy (sorta like a Judge) and they also are held accountable. A agree that it not only Republicans with a "I've got mine, let them get theirs" attitude. Our country needs all of its young people and we all need to pull together, not disintegrate in anger because someone might get something that you were denied.

[minavasht]

151. Oh, don't get me wrong, I got my masters

all paid and done. I worked my ass to do it.
And I haven't worked in that field in 9 years.
If students can say "I can't pay this big loan, I want it forgiven" and it happens, how are you going to make them pay for it?
If the degrees the students were getting were worth the money, they would find jobs to repay their loans. From what I hear engineers are still in demand. Accounting is apparently still very sellable.
Philosophy and psychology - not so much. Arts too.
One can like something and may want to study it, but one should make a decision - is this going to pay my bills or is it just a cool thing to do right now.
Once the potential students start to think about the consequences of their choices, this will become a non-issue.

[Logical]

107. No I will not! My brother worked two jobs to pay his off just last year. And....

they got the loans on their own. Not forced into it.

[Matariki]

113. "I got mine..."

:eyes:

[mainer]

114. More like "I paid for mine."

He didn't get it for free.

[minavasht]

116. That's right

you get a free degree and somebody else gets the bill.

[Matariki]

119. America would do well to foot that bill

it would have a much greater return dollar for dollar than, say, constant endless war.

[Logical]

121. Dup - Delete

[minavasht]

150. Is this a discussion about the war spending?

Who is talking about the war?
I can give you about 13 million other things that will have worst return than this proposal.
It does not make it any better.

BTW, the money we spend on the military is obscene.

[Raksha]

115. Done - thanks!

[Cleita]

123. Done. Hopefully in the future, quality education from K through

university will be free to all young people.

[Matariki]

132. +1

[Worship Money]

124. I signed it

Happily, proudly. :)

[Blasphemer]

130. K&R and signed!

Some of the responses her belong on the Free Republic... seriously. Any new government program means that a future generation benefits in a way that previous generations did not. The same applies towards regulations such as child labor laws. I look forward to a future where our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren can get a free public education all the way through college and graduate school. A real universal health care plan would mean that future generations aren't financially raped for basic health care in the way that we are now. Should we not fight for such a thing because we have had to suffer through an unfair system? The argument that "i had to pay and so should you" is just ridiculous. Once upon a time poverty meant certain death. Food stamps? My ancestors died, so should you!

[WCGreen]

136. I wouldn't call for forgiveness because what does that say for the

millions of us who borrowed and paid back our student loans?

If you really want to change the system, make it so the loans are actionable in a bankruptcy.

That is the key point.

[Lyric]

143. Yep, exactly.

That way, families who've suffered some horrific financial crisis (like a medical emergency) that results in bankruptcy can have a chance to rebuild their shattered lives without the choking yoke of unforgivable student loan debt.

[MFrohike]

137. This bothers me

I don't like the idea of a total writeoff on the debt. It strikes me as irresponsible policy. It sets a precedent for further debt forgiveness in the future without any consequence. That would be a grave mistake.

I think I could support a partial writeoff. I think it would be wise to eliminate some of the debt because I don't think it's ever going to be paid in full. I think it would be wiser to treat it as a debt negotiation where some of the debt is eliminated in exchange for a promise to pay the rest (though not on an accelerated schedule which would just make the entire problem worse). If this could be done with a wholesale revamping of post-secondary funding, relying on realistic grants in aid and not piddly Pell grants, it would make more sense than a simple writeoff. A partial writeoff would retain some of the responsibility, which is important, while removing a lot of the ridiculousness of the entire process. Honestly, only a moron would design a system where the key to economic growth puts you 30 years in the hole from the start.

I've read a lot of responses in this thread. To those posters who talk about how they paid their loans and everybody else should too, unless you've stared a bill for 1-2k/month in the face, please pipe down. I don't much care how you paid off your loans from 20-30 years ago. Unless you've actually seen the tuition bills in the last 10 years, you are clueless. I agree that no one should get a free ride, but I don't think many of you have the first idea of how insanely expensive post-secondary education has become.

[RainDog]

138. another problem is that universities take advantage of grad students

they pay them far less then they are worth to do work that they could not get done otherwise because people are trying to build their resumes. They also have students do work for free through internships and practicums. Hours that are paid do not take into account the many unpaid hours that go in to so many of these jobs.

Minimum wage has not kept pace with cost of living for more than 30 years.

So, if Universities didn't take advantage of the "slave labor" of students - you also wouldn't have this problem.

[mainer]

139. If universities paid grad students a living wage, tuition would go up

Alas, if you squeeze one end, it bulges somewhere else.

[RainDog]

146. what do administrators do to earn their salaries?

honestly - if universities want to cut budgets to keep down tuition, they should look at their swollen administrative budgets. at my local U, the president of it got a HUGE pay increase - from 400k to 500plus k - while professors and faculty were told they had a pay freeze.

not to mention grad students.

why is it always those who are already being exploited who are expected to bear the burden?

imo, education should be subsidized by tax dollars. sliding fee scale. students should have to earn a place in college. it would eliminate a lot of problems if we treated schools, not just colleges, but high schools, too, as places of learning, not places for parents to have something to do on Friday nights via football, etc. Other places have clubs for sports that are outside of school and the schools are for education. they have better educated students, too.

[ecstatic]

140. Why not all loans?

Many poor people never had the chance to go to college and incur student loan debt. I have student loans, but I would like my other loans to be forgiven as well. :shrug:

[Lyric]

142. Because if everything falls apart, other loans CAN be forgiven. Via bankruptcy.

But student loans can't. They'll follow you to the grave, even if you're literally starving in the streets.

[ecstatic]

145. As long as the education loans are forgiven via bankruptcy as well

I'm all for it.

[mainer]

141. This affects small numbers. Why not push universal health care instead?

Families across America are going bankrupt because of medical costs. This is poverty affecting multiple generations. Nearly 50 million uninsured, cutting across all states, all races. Forgiving the debts of only the college-educated is robbing money from those who are less fortunate, less educated, to put into the pockets of the college kids.

[Cal33]

144. Ask the corporatists. I'm with you. I'm all for universal health care.

[trayfoot]

Done!

[trayfoot]

148. Done!

[MoonRiver]

149. Done!

This would be a great stimulus to the economy! :thumbsup: