10 Tips to Stop Rape. From Rape Crisis Scotland

[TalkingDog]

[tblue]

1. Is this a joke?

I love that #10. At least it puts he onus on the men.

[Kber]

8. Points 1, 2, 3 ,4, 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9 also put the onus on men.

That's the point, I think.

[pasto76]

236. well, like, I have complete control of where my pecker goes.

[seabeyond]

40. the point. don't rape. all the onus is on the man. nt

[NeedleCast]

284. Unless the rapist is a woman

[seabeyond]

301. yes. less than 2% are women and about all of that is with their children or children.

can we not realize that really does not signify with this?

[WinkyDink]

102. It's the SERIOUS rejoinder to those who would in any way blame the woman.

[vets74]

188. Is it SCOTLAND ?

Said with an almost-silent "t" and frequently slurred from the wintery booze habits.

Yeah, it's called humour. Not laugh-out-loud but funny. Lower voltage. In this case the lines are quotable.

[seabeyond]

189. actually scotland is not the original creator. i have seen this for a while. nt

[polly7]

309. Google image search shows the graphic was first made by Alexander Rodchenko,

designer who believed design could be a catalyst for social change. I think he'd be pleased to have it used in this way.

http://arttattler.com/archivealexanderrodchenko.html

[seabeyond]

310. i am sure no one minds. was meant to get message out. just not the first time i had heard this

never seen it laid out in this manner, though

[polly7]

315. Oh nooo, I didn't mean to imply anyone would mind.

It just seems fitting that his art would be used this way. Whoever thought of it is pretty clever, imo. A case of stating the obvious that actually invokes thought.

[DWilliamsamh]

357. Every one of the points puts the onus on men....

That was the point of the poster.

[leftstreet]

2. K&R

:spray:

I first thought this would be another bullshit blame the victim thing

Outstanding!

[valerief]

3. Excellent! nt

[ceile]

4. K&R n/t

[Uncle Joe]

5. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, TalkingDog.

[riderinthestorm]

6. Wow. Copied and sent on as an email far and wide! Thanks for posting. K&R. nt

[hlthe2b]

7. Provocative, I guess

I don't know that the sardonic approach is the best one, but who knows?

[Tansy_Gold]

9. Can't recommend this enough!!

[lapislzi]

10. Anybody have Ben Rothelisburger's e-mail?

I'm sure he'd find these tips helpful.

[seabeyond]

41. +1. nt

[SidDithers]

234. Or Julian Assange's?...nt

Sid

[RegieRocker]

11. Yea like that is going to work.

This might work better.


1. Don't take drinks from strangers.
2. Don't walk by yourself.
3. Have cell phone to call for help when car breaks down.
4. Don't get in a lift with a stranger alone.
5. Never leave doors or windows unlocked.
6. Use the buddy system.
7. Do not fall asleep or drink yourself unconscious with a stranger.
8. Carry a gun, mace or a whistle.
9. Ask direct questions and if you don't get an immediate direct answer then don't stay in that situation.
10. Call 911


Asking a rapist to follow those guidelines is well..........dumb. Sorry but I have to call it like it is.

OK, now let me have it. I know it's coming.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. And the next step is...

wear a burqa so that men are not driven to uncontrollable lust by the sight of you?

Yeesh!

You know, if you steal money from someone who is walking alone or unconscious or someone who leaves their doors unlocked, it's still a crime.

[RegieRocker]

16. Maybe your step and ridiculous summation of my intent.

Look I've raised 3 kids and I didn't expect others to keep from preying on them. I taught them some very important things so that they could stay protected. Go ahead and expect the rapist to do those things on the list. You don't get it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. Right, I was told the same things, and so far so good

But the poster is dealing with the EXCUSES that rapists use for their crimes, excuses that society has accepted until just recently and that are still accepted in certain circles, such as college fraternities.

[RegieRocker]

20. Well if those are excuses it's B.S. Maybe I'm not in the loop

or understand how there could be an excuse for rape. I put a rapist in the hospital when I was younger. He raped a 16yr old. I did not hear any excuses.

[uppityperson]

29. Excuses like "she was walking alone"?

Or, "we were at a party together and I she shouldn't have taken a drink from me"?
Or "she should've known better than to ask a stranger to use his cell phone"?
Or "she should've known better than to get into a lift with me"
Or "she left her window unlocked so obviously didn't care if she was raped"
Or "if she'd carried a gun or mace or a whistle I wouldn't've raped her. She didn't so it was her fault"
Or "she could have just left when I started beating around the bush but she didn't. She led me on. It was her fault"

Excuses like these? You've never heard this sort of thing? You've never heard anyone blame a rape victim for walking alone? For any of that other crap?

Seriously?

[RegieRocker]

178. Yes that is correct.

The derelict I came in contact with knew he did wrong. The only one I've heard and that was from tv, "she dressed like she wanted it". Which is total b.s. I can say I've heard them now.

[RaleighNCDUer]

247. Of course, it is not the rapist who makes the excuses - it is the others,

the cops who investigate (or not), the authorities who will say "it would not have happened if SHE had..."

[uppityperson]

275. And I see this poster as educating those others, getting people to talk about issues like that.

That is what I see this doing.

[Zoeisright]

Exactly.

Anyone who doesn't get this has some serious problems.

[Book Lover]

70. And if one of your kids is ready to do the preying?

Look, I'm a parent too. None of us want to think that our kids, those reflections of ourselves, are capable of committing acts that are not only crimes, but immoral/unethical acts. But sometimes, we have to stop the little one from pulling the wings off of that fly. This poster does the same thing.

[RegieRocker]

180. In regards to sons I see that point. As for adults, I don't see it doing much.

[seabeyond]

183. a large number of rapes are happening on college campuses. nt

[RegieRocker]

194. Why college campuses?

[seabeyond]

199. i could guess at a number of reasons. the point? nt

[RegieRocker]

311. It was not a statement it was a question. Point?

I would think it would be important as to why. Emotions are ruling are they not?

[ehrnst]

195. These are instructions on NOT preying on people, and don't discourage people

protecting themselves.

The number of messages to tell people not to drive drunk is much higher than the ones telling you to stay off the roads on New Years Eve.

[redqueen]

294. You're right... "Don't drink and drive!" is MUCH more common

than "Stay off the roads when drunks are likely to be driving!"


Interesting and sad.

[RaleighNCDUer]

245. The point is, did you raise them to NOT prey on others? nt

[seabeyond]

252. good point. sounds like there is a daughter, BUT has he had this conversation with sons....

has it merely been, telling the daughter to not be alone and don't ride an elevator (cause anyone can step in on any floor, leaving her "alone" with a man)(which brings me to another. how many men would declare outrage and offense if a woman stepped off elevator or refused to walk in cause she would be alone with a man), or has he taught his sons... don't rape. and many young men use coercion without thinking it rape and defining and discussing with sons.

[redqueen]

295. "many young men use coercion without thinking it rape"

Exactly. God these threads are depressing.

[seabeyond]

303. hey...

i have missed you

[redqueen]

327. I've missed you too...

and a lot of other good posters here. Can't say I've missed the place that much, but after a wander around a few forums, I find that the signal to noise/idiot to rational person ratio is probably better here than elsewhere, as depressing as that thought is.

[seabeyond]

365. .

that is what i have thought.... having experienced other sites.

[RegieRocker]

314. I have two sons and one daughter. A woman is always someones

daughter and possibly sister. Need I explain more.

[seabeyond]

317. well, ya. and do you have conversations with sons about their part in the whole

rape/gender/responsibility/obligation thing.

and ya, woman is always a daughter. but then so many dont seem to care but would not allow the same with their own mother or sister or daughter

so, no, i am not really getting your point

[RegieRocker]

328. too bad for you.

You're playing games so you don't have any ground to stand on.

[seabeyond]

329. you are just going to have to be more specific because i am clueless what your accusation

is about

[abelenkpe]

305. It's important to tell kids it's not OK to prey on people too

failure to do so may end up in raising a predator/rapist.

[CTyankee]

15. You have, in a rather grandiose manner, completely missed the point.

...sigh...

[RegieRocker]

17. It's called a realistic manner. Dream on.

[CTyankee]

26. Oh, dear, once again...Luv, you clearly cannot "get it."

It's simple really...think harder...

[hfojvt]

34. is it

Whistler's mother?

[CTyankee]

86. Your reply would be more interesting if you explained what the hell you were

talking about...think harder, dear...

[hfojvt]

136. well dang, I thought that would be pretty obvious

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=2024723

[SemperEadem]

172. it's bad form to bring arguments from one thread and

continue the drama in another.

[hfojvt]

225. What's really bad form

is to make assumptions about unclear statements instead of asking for clarification.

[CTyankee]

211. Oh, did you like that challenge?

One of my faves, I must admit.

More fun this Friday...

[duhneece]

200. It's not just about 'thinking HARDER'

It's more like 'think in a different way.' The original post was more like a deliberately elaborate non-nonsensical list (obviously, no rapist would pay attention to such a list), but rather another way of stating the obvious: women should not have to change anything; men should not rape, period.

Sort of like this Scottish anti-rape ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnGPAZcsqE

[CTyankee]

210. For some people, tho, thinking "in a different way" requires them to "think harder."

Unfortunately.

[uppityperson]

25. Those don't prevent rape. Maybe some situations but not a lot of them.

1. don't take drinks from strangers. People who aren't strangers do rape.
2. Don't walk by yourself. Again, wtf? In some cases, perhaps, but, again, people get raped by NONSTRANGERS, even those they might be walking with. And seriously only people walking alone get raped?
3. Have cell phone to call for help when car breaks down is good advice for anyone since you can then get help. May prevent a rape but also may preven lightening from hitting you since the MAJORITY of rapes are not on people whose car broke down.
4. Don't get in a lift with a stranger alone. Most rapes are done by non-strangers.
5. Never leave doors or windows unlocked because...most rapes are done by non-strangers.


etc etc etc. Yes, use common sense and don't put yourself in a situation you are likely to get mugged in. But seriously, EVEN if you do all that, that cute guy sitting next to you at a party might just slip something into your drink. Or your spouse may decide "tonight's the night, bitch". Or that person you have been eyeing at school walks you home, and takes a rape break on the way.

[Matariki]

27. Insensitive and ignorant post.

How about this. You arrange YOUR life to never walk anywhere by yourself or get into an elevator with a stranger. You are either flame-baiting this thread or you are completely without a clue and need to get educated.

[RegieRocker]

197. If you have a daughter and don't tell her these things I feel

sorry for her. You don't have a clue.

[Matariki]

If I had a daughter I'd have her enrolled in martial arts classes from an early age

and what I *wouldn't* do is teach her to be fearful of the world or of men. I certainly wouldn't make her feel that she can't go anywhere by herself.

I feel sorry for your daughters. It doesn't sound like you are raising them to be self sufficient or confident.

[seabeyond]

42. wow. so women can't get in elevators, or go out in public without another with them? really? nt

[lunatica]

61. I guess you think men don't need to be told not to rape?

Do you even have the faintest idea that most rapes are by someone the woman knows? What's your patronizing advice to them?

[lapislzi]

91. Men shouldn't HAVE to be told not to rape.

Sadly, this is sometimes not the case. Let us also remember that rape is crime of violence. Sex is the vehicle by which violence is visited on the victim. It is often tied to the rapist's sense of entitlement and control.

[seabeyond]

94. i think part of the issue is societal reinforcement that male is to "encourage" female to have sex

get her drunk
nag
isolate
physically push

i told my boys when talking about date rape, to be sure the girl is as .... AS.... enthusiastic as they are.

for both the girl and the boys sake... and safety

if a person has to try to convince another to have sex, it probably shouldnt happen

[lunatica]

176. Most men don't have to be told not to rape

But it never hurts to reinforce the notion that "no" means "no", even if the girl is attracted to them. Sex should always be preceded by "yes". Period.

[Ed Suspicious]

325. I say only a clear and resounding yes means yes

Otherwise it's always no.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

213. And women shouldn't HAVE to live in fear either

But that's what they're told to do in order to accomodate some men's abusive behavior. Funny our society has no problem with that.

[Sparkly]

115. You completely missed the point. nt

[RegieRocker]

182. Not at all.

If it said 10 steps to stop your sons from raping I would understand. Quite simple really. I don't feel this will do one bit of good in correcting a rapist.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[d_b]

135. what a dumb fucking post

holy shit.

[vets74]

193. Actually it's a test of sorts.

It accomplishes two things:

1. Makes rape a topic for discussion.

2. Encourages guys to discourage other guys from fucking girls when they're wasted.

Been to a party ?

[ehrnst]

198. Do you think that 'Don't Drink and Drive' is fucking dumb?

Or do we just tell people to stay off the roads on New Year's Eve?

[d_b]

214. you're in the wrong thread, bud

this is the rape one

[SidDithers]

232. +1...

Couldn't agree more.

Sid

[AtheistCrusader]

159. I think you might be confused.

But mad props for thinking point #1 & #7 are a stranger-danger risk only.

That takes dedication.

[liberation]

162. Wwwooooosssssshhhhhh

You clearly missed the point of the poster.

[fasttense]

184. How exactly do you live your life without ever

Taking a drink from a stranger. Every time you order a drink in a restaurant, bar or coffee shop you are accepting a drink from a stranger.

Walking by yourself. Every day of my life, at some point I'm by myself and have to walk.

Have a cell phone to call for help when car breaks down. Ok that one is possible, but the one time my car broke down and had my cell ready to call, 3 friends were passing by and insisted I use their cell.

Getting on a lift with a stranger alone. I have been in lifts alone with strangers many, many times (and never been raped). It's just not possible in this society to avoid a situation like this unless you plan on living and working on the 1st floor all your life.

Leaving doors and windows unlocked. Who among us is perfect? There are times when everyone forgets.

Not using the buddy system. Uhmm, there are many times when no buddies are around and you just have to do it alone.

You get the idea. I never understood those recommendations you listed. I've read them other places. Some of them are possible, some are humanly impossible. Trying to get a possible victim of a crime to ensure their life has absolutely no opportunities for a possible crime will never happen. Not if the possible victim has a life.

But you missed the intent of the poster. It was not a request to a rapist, it was a tongue in cheek method of putting the responsibility of NOT raping back onto the criminal.

[Pacifist Patriot]

206. You really didn't get the point?

Rape is never ever ever the victim's fault and 100% the responsibility of the rapist. It's not seriously giving rape prevention tips, it's reminding people the victim is never to blame.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

212. Forcing abusers/rapists to take responsibility for their own behavior

instead of blaming the victim DOES work - if society and the legal system would just do that. But they don't. And that is the point. Put the blame and responsibility (and yes, education) where it belongs, and the epidemic of rape (and the attitudes of our rape culture which support it) might just be stopped or at least reduced.

[whathehell]

219. Don't "walk by yourself"?...Are you KIDDING?

Yeah, sure...Maybe females should all be born in TWOS

like Siamese twins so, what?..We can never "walk alone"?


It sounds like..A. You are not female.

B. Those three kids you raised aren't either..No other

possible reason for such ludicrous advice.

[TheLadyEvenstar]

372. Be a Prisoner then?

So basically women the whole world over need to be prisoners of their own home or accompanied everywhere because some men - if you can call them that cannot control themselves.

[Matariki]

12. Bravo.

It's about time the responsibility gets directed toward the right party.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. Another sardonic approach I once heard was

in reference to the advice that women should never go out alone after dark without a male escort.

The suggestion was that no man should be allowed out after dark without a female escort.

The way men usually react is, "But---but---that would be LIMITING!"

Exactly. :-)

[Scout]

266. i suggested just that in my local newspaper....

there were/are a recent rash of rapes and physical assaults...

of course all the usual "advice" for women was listed...

i suggested that all the law-abiding, non-rapist men should voluntarily submit to a curfew (the attacks were all in the evening/at night)
... that they not be allowed to go out at any time unless accompanied by two or more women.
that they not be allowed to gather in groups of more than 2 men even when they are properly accompanied by 2 or more women.

i suggested that you might be surprised at how quickly people decide they know something about who the real attacker is ... that if the law-abiding men were at home or chaperoned, it would be much easier to catch the real culprit.

you should have seen the howls of indignation!! how dare i "punish" all those innocent men! how DARE i suggest that the gender that is the one committing the crimes be the one to limit their behavior, rather than the gender that is the victim of the crimes limiting their behavior! the cries of sexism and hypocrisy were mighty, the wailing and the gnashing of teeth was intense. then they deleted my post, even though it was the favorite of the thread!

[redqueen]

335. Wow, how sad that they deleted it.

It would be nice to think that such an example might open some eyes to the double-standard, but alas.

[REP]

18. Finally! Someone gets it. + R

[Nye Bevan]

21. Isn't this kind of a complete waste of time?

Seriously, is any guy who would have been a rapist suddenly going to stop being a rapist by reading this poster?


OTOH, if I am wrong, we should use this approach for other crimes too:

TOP TIPS TO END MURDER:

1. When you go into a convenience store, simply choose what you want to buy and pay for it. Under *no* circumstances take out a gun and blow away the clerk.

2. Don't be tempted to kill your parents to get your inheritance sooner. Instead, learn to be patient.

3. Is your spouse annoying you, or cheating on you? Divorce is a *much* better solution than murder.

........ etc. ......

10. DON'T murder.

[Uncle Joe]

30. Perhaps a few high end sociopath rapist types may take this advice as something

that's advantageous to themselves and thus use self serving reason to at least help partially fill their empathetic vacuum.

Even if this is just an attempt at sardonic humor, all the other suggestions to avoid rape seems to be aimed primarily at the victims, this may prevent a few rapes from happening and if it does that would be a good thing.

[Nye Bevan]

32. OK. Let me finish off and publish my "Don't Murder" poster.

It might prevent a few murders.

[Uncle Joe]

45. You never know, it might?

:shrug:

One thing is for certain, it you don't publish it, nothing will change, if you do, there is always the possibility, that ripple in the pond, no matter how slim will make a difference somewhere with someone.

[seabeyond]

53. as a society we put the burden of rape on women. as a society, murder is squarely put on the killer

the point of this is that it is not the woman who is raped that stops the rape, it is the man that does not rape, that stops rape.

it is not a tough concept but one our society seems to not understand.

[uppityperson]

59. exactly.

[Nye Bevan]

80. People keep saying "we as a society" blame women's behavior for rape.

I don't know who this "we" is because I have never thought like that. And I don't know anybody who thinks like this.

[uppityperson]

83. How about in this case?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2142356&mesg_id=2142356

[seabeyond]

96. the glaring example is this thread. the OP. often when discussing rape it is always in the context

of what the woman needs to do to prevent it.

that is the "society" we are talking about.

as odd as it sounds, the first time i heard this, was a wow... to me. no shit, to me. so obvious, to me.

i had always perceived this issue what i.... I... need to do to prevent rape.

so many of the rapes are not violent, stranger, attack. they are the boy next door. the friend. the date. and guys convince themselves that it isnt "really" rape. what you are not getting is this outloud, onus, on the rapist.

[Nye Bevan]

97. I'm not like Whoopi Goldberg, I don't distinguish between "rape" and "rape-rape".

To me, rape is rape, even when it's Roman Polanski.

[seabeyond]

108. agreed. and you are special. let whoopie read this

that is pretty much the point. you can see the difference. and you can see the very normal people, of both gender that rape-rape, rape.

how often, and how many do you hear, tell women how to prevent rape. and how often is the male population addressed with rape.

women often and from a young age.

[jeff47]

272. Look upthread. You'll find someone arguing vehemently that women have to change their behavior (nt)

[SemperEadem]

173. exactly--in some parts of the world, the woman is legally held

responsible for rape and she can be forced to marry her rapist. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-106652209.html

men not raping is the only thing that stops rape. Period.

Rape is not about sex--it's about power. The sooner a lot of people get that through their thick skulls, the better off everyone will be.

[TheLadyEvenstar]

373. You are so very right!

I was raped at 18 years old. I am not a victim I am a survivor.

My rapist escaped prison in 2006 12 yrs after being sentenced - he went to Ireland and raped again.

He was also a convicted murderer.....proves rehabilitation doesn't work imo!!

[Exultant Democracy]

116. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of this, it is political propaganda and very well done.

The point isn't to speak to rapist per-say, but to speak to society at large about the manner in which the debate about rape and rape prevention has been framed.

If we push back against false framing we have a better chance of actually addressing the issue in a more reasonable manner.

[Morning Dew]

278. +1

[Chorophyll]

140. The point is to make people, whomever they are, think about

something other than what the victim was wearing or if she had a drink. The best way to prevent rape is to not rape anyone.

[Skittles]

146. OMG

you seriously don't get it, do you?

[chrisa]

243. I took it as a tongue-in-cheek dig at "Stop Rape" suggestions that

tell a woman how to avoid being raped, as if it's her fault that it would happen.

[lumberjack_jeff]

255. Not if your goal is to create a caricature to attack. n/t

[Scout]

269. most of the time, a murder victim is NOT BLAMED FOR BEING MURDERED....

unlike the average rape victim.

duh.

[Posteritatis]

22. Interesting that something so obvious as "rapists choose to commit rapes" offends so many here. nt

[Nye Bevan]

23. I don't see anyone offended in this thread.

Or anyone questioning that rapists choose to commit rapes.

I do see people questioning whether a poster telling people not to rape is going to be effective in stopping rape.

[CTyankee]

28. Another one missing the point!

Try harder. Look at some of the prescient posts here on this thread. You will learn the answer!

[Nye Bevan]

31. I just want there to be fewer rapes.

And I'm not sure that producing posters requesting that men don't rape is the best use of time and money towards this end.

Sorry, I know I am not as intelligent as you, and I'm not really good at that 10-dimensional chess stuff, but that's my simplistic perspective.

[CTyankee]

33. Here's the deal: read the OP. See how it puts the onus on MEN to stop rape, not women.

Think hard about that. What does that mean? Could it be that it means we have been, as a society, blaming women for what THEY do to make rape happen? Well, let's THINK about that! Could it be that we should change our way of thinking about why rape occurs?

Hmmm?

[Nye Bevan]

36. I can't speak for "society" but I have never blamed women for being raped

just like I have never blamed murder victims for being murdered, or robbery victims for being robbed.

If I withdraw $800 from an ATM in a questionable neighborhood, in full view of some unsavory characters, while I am by myself, and then get robbed, am I to blame for being robbed? No. Should I have taken sensible precautions which would likely have prevented me from being robbed? Yes.

[CTyankee]

79. OK, look at it this way: this OP has turned the usual "how to stop rape?" stuff on its head

and talked about the men's responsibility. That is all. Think harder about THAT.

[lapislzi]

92. There's a lovely little piece of doggerel in the film "Shirley Valentine"

Her son is living on the streets as a poet. He recites for her his poem "Don't Rob Cars."

It's very simple. You: the potential criminal. Don't do it, K?

What's so hard to get about that?

[uppityperson]

37. Educating people that these aren't excuses is somehow a waste of time and resources.

Incredible, isn't it?

[CTyankee]

82. pretty much...why don't they get it, though?

[uppityperson]

35. educating men that these "excuses" aren't excuses, trying to get them to think, this is wrong?

Of course those sociopathic types won't care, but if even a few men would stop and think about this, it could help. I am thinking mostly of those who are young and more apt to peer pressure as far as drugs, but EVERY man should stop and consider whose fault it is and if he has used any of those excuses.

This is a waste, according to you. Obviously.

[Nye Bevan]

38. "These excuses"? What excuses? (nt)

[uppityperson]

39. The ones this poster talks about.

She should not have been walking alone. She should not have gotten into a elevator. She should not have been at that party. etc etc etc. NONE of these are good excuses. Too often though the victim is told it was her fault for doing any of these things. After all, you wouldn't withdraw $982374032740329 and walk down the street flashing it without taking some responsibility for getting mugged.

Getting into an elevator. Walking alone. Etc, are NOT excuses to rape or reason to blame a victim. Going to a party and being drugged is NOT her fault. Men need to understand their role. So does our greater society.

[Nye Bevan]

44. Putting drugs into a woman's drink is an "excuse" to rape her?

The fact that a woman is walking by herself is an "excuse" to rape her?

The fact that a woman's car has broken down is an "excuse" to rape her?

The fact that a woman enters a lift is an "excuse" to rape her?

The fact that you have crept into a woman's home gives you an "excuse" to rape her?

etc........

Sorry, but anybody who believes that any of these are "excuses" for rape is such an unremittingly evil individual that their mind is not going to be changed by a fancy graphic.

"Oh, you mean I *shouldn't* rape a woman who is walking by herself? That's not a legitimate *excuse*? Well, thanks for letting me know! I will certainly bear that in mind going forward!"

[Matariki]

46. Um, I think you are agreeing with the poster in the OP

even if you aren't actually getting it.

[Nye Bevan]

48. My point is that *everyone* agrees with the poster,

except for a very small number of evil people whose minds are not going to be changed by a poster.

Just like almost everyone would agree with a "Don't be a Serial Killer" poster. Which would be equally effective in stopping serial killings.

[uppityperson]

51. Our point is that you are wrong. That this poster could get people talking and thinking.

Maybe we are more cynical, or would it be hopeful, than you?

On edit, and no. Not everyone agrees because those reasons are thrown out when a woman gets raped. Or a man. It was their fault for not following one of those rules.

[Nye Bevan]

67. Talking like "hmmmm, so we *shouldn't* creep through women's windows and rape them!"

It *would* certainly be great if instituting a dialogue on not creeping through women's windows and raping them would help prevent rapists from doing just that. But I guess I'm actually more cynical than you.

[uppityperson]

69. If everyone agrees with OP, why are these still used to blame women for being victims?

"she left her window open so it's her fault"

[Nye Bevan]

78. Nobody I know says stuff like that.

Maybe you need new friends.

[uppityperson]

81. Whose fault was this rape?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2142356&mesg_id=2142356

[Nye Bevan]

87. It would never even occur to me to ask whose fault a rape is. It's *always* the fault of the rapist.

I think this demonstrates that we have a different mindset on this issue.

[uppityperson]

88. rape is a "no fault" crime. Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

[Nye Bevan]

90. Now I'm not really following you.

I edited my post to clarify that when I said it would never occur to me to ask whose fault a rape is, that's because it is *always* the fault of the rapist.

I am surprised that you needed to ask whose fault that rape was.

[uppityperson]

93. I agree that it is the rapist's fault. But too often the victim ends up being doubly victimized

because she did something she "shouldn't have".

[canetoad]

125. I object your honour.

Argumentative.

[AtheistCrusader]

353. You just completely misunderstood that poster.

[uppityperson]

362. I was being intentionally snarky. I think we worked it out elsewhere. thanks for being concerned,

and I mean that, not snarking.

[MedicalAdmin]

181. Are you friends with the entire human race?

If not, then ease stop pretending that this doesn't exist or occur. What you are doing, i believe without conscious volition, is denying others experiences. I've seen it and I've heard those excuses.

And while I don't tolerate them, I cannot deny that they exist and that the mind set revealed by them isn't a problem.

[Matariki]

60. No not really. That poster addresses a whole number of societal messages that women get.

And get all the time. Believe me, if you stop telling women 'what is' and actually listen to what they have to say, you'll see that there are many, many women - both on DU and probably in your own life - that can explain it to you.

I had someone break into my house and attempt to rape me a couple decades ago and I will tell you from first hand experience how often I heard those sort of things from people. Things which insinuated it was somehow something *I* did (i.e. live in the wrong neighborhood, etc).

[MedicalAdmin]

179. I don't think you are wrong.

I know it. There is a world of apologists and enablers out there. And many of them are sitting on the fence. Think of it as analogous to voters whomvotemagainst their own interests and the awakening that is finally happening with OWS.

[uppityperson]

47. she was walking alone so it was her fault. She went to a party so it was her fault

Have you never heard this as an excuse or to try and blame the victim? seriously?

Educating people that EVEN IF she is walking alone, EVEN IF she is at a party, EVEN if you have access to drug that it is not ok, that yes, this IS rape, is......wrong?

Obviously there are many people who understand this and obviously this isn't aimed at them. But for those who might be able to stop and think, as I wrote elsewhere I am thinking of highschool or college parties, if it makes someone stop and think, I am all for it.

I am sorry that you don't understand this.

[Nye Bevan]

49. Again, any man who believes that a woman walking alone gives him an excuse to rape her

is not going to have his mindset changed by a slick looking poster.

[uppityperson]

50. You think educating youngsters might help? Might they read this and it make them think?

I am not sure why you are taking such offense at this poster. And don't deny it, you are. Otherwise why would you be spending so much time on this thread?

[AngkorWot]

54. I myself am not offended, I just don't get the joke.

Why would a rapist be interested in stopping rape? Is this a part of a series? How not to steal a car? How not to blackmail? How not to blow up an abortion clinic?

[uppityperson]

57. Who says rape is a joke? I guess you don't think talking about rape is worthwhile

which is odd since you posted here. Your reply had little to do with this part of what I wrote, care to comment?

You think educating youngsters might help? Might they read this and it make them think?

Furthermore, do you think talking about the onus society puts on victims, how it blames them for being victimized (slept with your window open) is wrong?

[uppityperson]

58. glitch during posting so marking to find this again. Please reply here so I will see it in mydu

thank you

[AngkorWot]

64. The poster, apparently.

It seems to be treating rape like some sort of goofy accident. Like the rapist doesn't know exactly what he was doing. It reads like those "wash your hands" notices for employees in restaurants. Or... or is it intended to mock self-defense advice?

[uppityperson]

71. Why are raped women blamed for the things in OP? Is that not worth talking about?

And yes, women are blamed for all those things. "she left her bedroom window open so it is her fault". "she walked down the street along so it is her fault".

It isn't her fault. I would find it amazing you can't understand this, but it seems standard for you.

[Nye Bevan]

68. Well, there might be people who think that an expensive car parked and unlocked gives them an excuse

to steal it.

Someone should make up some kind of poster to educate these people that this is not the case.

[uppityperson]

73. Are victims of car theft treated the same as victims of rape? False comparison

Let me know when someone is in court for autotheft and the defense picks apart the car owner's habits and morals and tries to make them responsible for the crime.

[Nye Bevan]

84. "It was your fault for leaving your car unlocked".

"It was your fault for leaving the keys in the car".

Car thieves need to be educated that these are *not* legitimate excuses for stealing cars.

[uppityperson]

85. And do car thieves get let loose on that defense? How about this case...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2142356&mesg_id=2142356

Waiting for you to comment on it.

[JVS]

149. Can you show me one case where a rape defendant's defense was that he had tampered with her drink?

I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread about the words "excuse" and "opportunity".

[Nye Bevan]

254. Or that she was walking alone? Or that she left her window open?

Confusion, indeed.

[uppityperson]

273. Or that, god forbid, she used drugs, was unemployed, homeless, etc.

Or some other "sketchy" type person.

Thank you for hanging in here on this thread. I am understanding what you mean more and think we're meaning about the same though talking differently.

[JVS]

145. Is it blaming the potential victim to remind them that it's a good idea to lock their car?

[uppityperson]

274. You didn't address what I wrote there.

Are victims of car theft treated the same as victims of rape? False comparison

Let me know when someone is in court for autotheft and the defense picks apart the car owner's habits and morals and tries to make them responsible for the crime.

[JVS]

282. And you didn't address what I wrote.

[MedicalAdmin]

177. If I may interject.

This posters target audience is not rapists, but rather apologists. And I think that is the point you seem to be missing.

It seem to be an attempt to reach into that good old boys club atmosphere where asshats get together in a bar and make excuses up for a horrific crime. These excuses are based in accepting that women are somehow less deserving as respect.

It is not an attempt to raise the consciousness of rapist as that is really an exercise in futility, but rather that of society at large in which the rapists operate. And with this more men may not ignore the danger signals they may see around them, the signals of a rapist at work. And if we are all watching, and all ready to ignore true excuses, then we all become part o the solution and no longer enablers to the problem.

Just my 2 cents.

[RegieRocker]

186. I see it as excellent material for our sons. I also feel

more needs to be done in making sure sons understand. In that area we agree. The daughters also need to be extremely educated on this too.

[Nye Bevan]

203. I've never hung out with asshats in a bar who make excuses for rape

like the woman was walking alone, or her window was open.

Have you?

[MedicalAdmin]

300. Hung out with? No. Overheard in bars, etc.? Yes.

It is unfortunate and I don't choose to hang out with people like that. My friends are all pretty liberal and empathetic. In fact one of them narrowly lost a race against our current congressional rep. (which is too bad because M. Bachmann is WAAAAAYYYYY out past right field). Most of my friends volunteer and work with various needy groups including immigrants, homeless, and one of them is the current chair of the NAACP (local chapter).

But sitting in a bar in this area I overhear this stuff. In the bleachers at a college sports game I overhear this stuff. Normally alcohol or other inhibition lowering substances are involved. It sickens me and I usually speak up (except where there are others with me and I think physical violence might result from me saying something as it is not my place to involve others in that level of confrontation without their consent).

It is a sad reality and one, I think, that everyone responding to this OP, is working to change. This, of course, assumes that everyone is aware of this problem. If someone can't acknowledge it, or thinks it isn't a problem, then it can't be worked on or fixed.

Thanks for the conversation. It's made me -- :think:

[raccoon]

221. Well said! nt

[knightmaar]

224. It's used as an excuse

I wish I could find the study I read a little while ago.

It was demonstrated that the vast majority of rapes are committed by a small number of men. If you ask them if they have committed rape, they tell you "no". But if you ask them if they have spiked a drink with extra alcohol or drugs to turn a woman's "no" into a "yes", they'll say "sure". They will also acknowledge all sorts of other coercive behaviours.

"But isn't that rape?" you'll ask.

"No," they'll say and frown at you like idiots.

[bettyellen]

112. if you stopped to think about it, I bet you have met a few men who actually needed that advice...

I sure as shit have. and maybe if you had seen this poster prior, and thought about it, you might have actually said something. a lot of guys have seen their friends do shit listed in that poster, and tell themselves, naaah, not him, he;s not a rapist.

[Nye Bevan]

113. Nope. Never known anyone who would drug a woman's drink.

Or who would rape a woman because she was walking by herself. Or who would creep through an open window to rape a woman. Etc.

And I don't need to see a poster to know that drugging a woman's drink in order to rape her is a horrific thing to do.

[bettyellen]

122. i hate to tell you this, but most Frat members know a few men who need to be told unconcious or

barely concious women are off limits. It is like that out there, and I'm over being told what I need to do to prevent it.
If you've wrestled one too many men in the wee small hours, seeing the message framed is an awesome thing. It always was with aquanitances, friends of friends who could never believe they would act that way. So much for the don't get in eleveators with strangers BS.

[raccoon]

226. That's been my experience too. And lots of guys think a date is like a "contest" and if they have

sex, he wins the "contest;" if they don't have sex, she wins the "contest."


"It always was with aquanitances, friends of friends who could never believe they would act that way."

Aint that the truth?

[seabeyond]

124. how about a guy/man boasting about getting the chick.... drunk?

we have ALL heard this and yes, the point is getting her to the point of not being in any shape to say no.

what is that?

[raccoon]

223. As in, "Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker?" nt

[seabeyond]

227. i guess there are even cute little quips conditioning our boys.... nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

253. Absent an IV tube, how would I get another person drunk? n/t

[seabeyond]

307. really, lumberjack? you truly are clueless what i am talking about or you

are pretending to be obtuse?

i won't play this game with my boys, as i teach them.

[Skittles]

128. yes

because men would always TELL your they are the type to do this :o

[Skittles]

130. yes

because men would always TELL you they are the type to do this :o

[canetoad]

148. Forget the drawn out discussion

What exactly is the point you are making?

That because you have never met a rapist they dont exist?

[Chorophyll]

141. The point is that ANYONE who reads this might actually think,

"oh yeah. It's not actually about what the woman was wearing."

The poster is not aimed exclusively at rapists. It's aimed at everyone.

[Skittles]

167. it's kind of disconcerting, CTyankee

I mean, WTF :o

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. I am.

Look, you might be just fine with the "every man is a potential if not actual rapist" frame, but I'm not.

There is no other human characteristic for which this kind of gross stereotyping would be tolerable.

The ad isn't supposed to be effective in stopping rape. It is intended to encourage the readers to lump all men in the same stereotype, and worse, imply that individuals have no power or responsibility for their own safety.

[CTyankee]

89. No. It is attempting to change a mindset that exists in some men's minds and

also, sadly, in some women's minds. I've heard this since I was young (a LONG time ago). Somehow, WOMEN not MEN must change their habits in order to prevent rape.

Destruction of this mindset is what this ad is all about. Don't you get it?

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. Who should change their habits to prevent bank robbery?

You? Me? Would ads imploring us to not take guns to the bank to steal someone else's money be of any practical benefit?

They could try, yet bank robbery would still occur. Perhaps the banks naive enough to take down the video cameras would be the first target.

I somehow doubt that bank robbery still happens because you haven't been hit over the head with a purse full of bricks (similar to the OP) lately.

In the usage of the OP, "Men rape" is exactly analogous to "Muslims terrorize", "Blacks perform female genital mutilation" or "moms kill their kids".

Yeah, some do, but castigating all men, or all muslims, or all blacks or all moms doesn't do anything to promote the underlying cause except create a group to demonize. It's apparently not enough to prosecute perpetrators, we must ostracize everyone who shares their plumbing. Make all men culpable for their crimes.

In the interest of specificity, which habits of mine or any of the other male DU'ers at whom this was directed should be changed to prevent rape? If you can't answer, then it safe to surmise that this fails your stated goal.

This does nothing positive to change any man's mindset. It does nothing positive to change any woman's mindset. It does nothing positive. Period.

[Skittles]

168. OMG

:rofl:

you TRULY DO.NOT.GET.IT.

[lumberjack_jeff]

238. I get it and understand it. You're entitled to be wrong. n/t

[raccoon]

228. You seem to be saying no one should DARE SUGGEST

that men could possibly do anything to prevent rape.

THis isn't just an individual thing; like some bad guys rape and some good guys don't.

It's about a lot of society's attitudes about rape. Our society blames women for being raped
because the woman was supposedly doing something she "shouldn't."

[seabeyond]

233. and a lot of people simply accept rape as part of a social condition

because after all, men are biologically, evolutionarily.... inclined, even though many men can "control" themselves.

there are many levels in this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

237. I can do about as much to prevent rape as I can to prevent bank robbery.

Support laws punishing it, and employ police to deter it.

It IS just an individual thing. Some bad guys rape and the rest don't.

[raccoon]

244. And when your male friends or co-workers make remarks that suggest that rape

is OK, especially date or acquaintance rape, call them on it.

We need to change attitudes about rape.

Edited to add 2nd paragraph.

[lumberjack_jeff]

249. That has never happened to me.

No one thinks that rape is okay. Those who do non consensual sex know that it's not okay, but do it anyway. They are bad people. Wagging a disapproving finger at them doesn't prevent rape, prosecuting them does.

The near ubiquitous and completely false belief that men get together in locker rooms and garages to brag about who they raped last night is a big part of the problem. Your caricature of men discredits anything valid you subsequently say to them.

[raccoon]

270. You have such all-or-nothing, judgmental, prejudiced thinking that

you aren't going to ever get this, no way no how.

And you obviously didn't read what I wrote, or didn't get it.

SOME men don't perceive non-consensual sex as rape. They don't brag about raping somebody, they
brag about having sex. Sometimes it was rape, only they don't perceive it as rape.

Welcome to ignore.

[lumberjack_jeff]

285. Talk about projection. I'm not the one making the stereotypes, I'm the one objecting to them. n/t

[Lars39]

246. If you have male offspring, are you teaching him not to rape?

And what constitutes rape? Are you reinforcing that message occasionally, since teens have the attention span of a gnat sometimes?

[lumberjack_jeff]

250. Are you teaching yours not to steal? n/t

[Lars39]

281. Teaching boundaries to your children is basic parenting skills.

[noiretextatique]

289. that you equate theft of property with rape is telling

someone just stole my bicycle from my yard, and though i am angry, i don't feel as violated and humiliated and devastated as i would if i had been raped. losing objects can be painful, but having someone force you to have sex is far more painful. your lack of empathy is disgusting.

[Gormy Cuss]

248. As mentioned up thread, some men (generally young) think passed out or barely conscious women

are available for sex without consent -- what mature minds know constitutes rape. Are these inherently "bad guys" or just men who were not sufficiently educated/conditioned on expectations of behavior in that situation?

[lumberjack_jeff]

251. I didn't see any posts from "some men".

Please link to any post, by any DU'er, in any timeframe, who states that a woman who is passed out can give consent.

Absent that, the whole OP is a giant fucking strawman.

[Gormy Cuss]

279. You're setting the barre too low. Anyone here can claim anything as a personal experience.

There is a large body of data on acquaintance rape and perceptions of men (and women) on that topic.
Koss, Gidycz,& Wisniewski (1987) is the most widely cited study earlier study where attitudes of both genders were analyzed. It's a college student sample and thus not generalizable, but there were about 15% of males who self-reported acts which constitute attempted rape or rape, and those acts included getting a woman too drunk to offer resistance. I don't have access to the breakdown so can't cite a percent in that last category, but it's certainly no "giant fucking strawman" since the same attitude has been measured in many subsequent studies.

[knightmaar]

256. Just because it didn't change your mind?

Different things reach different people's minds.

The first time I saw this, I didn't get that the goal was to make men realize how ridiculous it is to make women live in fear and watch their every move in case their dating habits, an unlocked door or a short skirt be used as an excuse to blame the victim.

For me, it was going to a princess party and watching a Disney Princess tell the five-year-olds that a princess "talks about how she got her prince" and "makes herself pretty for her prince" before I realized, "Holy shit! What the hell are we doing to our kids?!"

For you, it might be something different.

This is not attacking all men, as you seem to insist. You're way too sensitive and you're overreacting. It's telling all of us that we need to look at the messages we send to women and realize the effect they're having - whether it's obnoxious princess parties or lists of ways we blame them for being rape victims.

[lumberjack_jeff]

258. I'm sensitive to the idea that rape victims shouldn't be made to feel culpable.

Nevertheless, there are bad people out there who really couldn't care less about the message of the OP... because they're bad people.

a) don't discard your pepper spray.
b) the guy you're dating/going to church with/drinking with might be a bad person.
c) telling good people to not rape is ineffective, insulting and alienating.

[knightmaar]

313. Did the OP instruct women to be careless?

I don't think it did.

It just looked at the list of precautions from the other side - the side of the rapist - in order to make the society which we have allowed to evolve look absurd.

[ehrnst]

201. "Don't Drink and Drive" vs "Stay off the road on New Year's Eve to avoid drunk drivers""

Which one will be more effective message to keep people from dying in car accidents?

[lumberjack_jeff]

259. Arresting the ones who do is probably the most effective.

The OP is analogous to blaming all drivers for accidents caused by drunks. "You need to change the attitudes of your fellow drivers."

[ehrnst]

370. Not really - we don't blame the sober drivers who are killed by drunk drivers because

they were on the road New Year's Eve.

[Skittles]

127. actually, it only offends truly stupid men, and probably rapists too

[raccoon]

229. +1000. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

264. Would you describe me as a stupid probable rapist? n/t

[uppityperson]

297. Reading what you have posted, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, leave off that last 1/2 of

what skittles wrote.

[lumberjack_jeff]

319. Rules are funny.

It doesn't matter what rules are written. The defacto rules are manifest by what is tolerated.

Thus, I can be charitable by describing you as simply stupid, and perhaps not a felon. Maybe.

[Name removed]

333. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MedicalAdmin]

332. +1

[Hell Hath No Fury]

24. Love it!

Puts it in perfect perspective. :applause:

[Taverner]

43. Funny, and makes its point well

The onus IS on men

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Makes the point well

Men rape women.

[Liberal_in_LA]

55. good tip; DON"T RAPE!

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. Oh! I gotta write these down!

Thanks for the helpful, albeit grotesquely sexist advice!

[noiretextatique]

men commit 99.9% of rapes

when women start rapinf men in such numbers, then your ridiculous "sexist" claim might have some merit.

[noiretextatique]

290. men commit 99.9% of rapes

when women start rapinf men in such numbers, then your ridiculous "sexist" claim might have some merit.

[Abin Sur]

62. Tip 11: Shoot rapists.

[uppityperson]

66. Before they rape?

[Abin Sur]

74. There is normally a physical struggle of some sort

before the actual rape takes place, yes?

So before, during, or after works for me.

[uppityperson]

76. Not for mine. A knife to the neck works quite well to stop that. Second time I was

knocked out before could struggle. Last time was a partner, so I should've just shot him and then called the cops. My live in boyfriend tried to rape me so I shot him. Yup. That'd go over well. No proof of rape since I shot him before he could do it. And, what with us living together, of course they'd simply take my word for it.

You want people to go around shooting others they think might be rapists. Huh.

[Abin Sur]

77. Reasonable anticipation of physical harm is a perfectly justifiable reason

to defend yourself with a firearm.

And I never said to shoot someone you think "might" be a rapist. In any case, a firearm isn't a panacea that will stop every crime, but it does give women a greater ability to defend themselves against assault in many situations.

[harmonicon]

185. please take your pre-crime fantasies elsewhere - home would probably be the best place.

Shouting "he's heading right for us" before you shoot something doesn't make it legal in real life. You quite clearly need to learn the difference between real and make believe.

[iris27]

63. I saw the headline and assumed it would be the usual claptrap putting the onus on women's choices.

I was all prepared to post an indignant reply that was a list of 1-10, each entry being "Don't rape."

How refreshing to see this instead! :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Skittles]

169. well iris

you might have a crack at trying to explain to some very ignorant males in this thread YOUR (and my) reaction :o

[joeybee12]

72. KNR! This is great...it's men's behavior, not women's, that cause rape...nt

[Ohio Joe]

75. K&R - nt

[Starry Messenger]

95. k&r

[Nye Bevan]

98. Heres #11 and #12 for Roman Polanski and Whoopi Goldberg:

11. Don't ply a 13-year old girl with Qaaludes and then anally rape her.

12. If a Hollywood superstar plies a 13-year old girl with Qaaludes and then anally rapes her, it's rape. Don't go on TV and quibble about whether or not it's "rape-rape".

[seabeyond]

109. +1. so true. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

161. Yeah, that whole debacle... 'but she's forgiven him'. Nice. Still a crime.

A despicable, evil crime, committed by a despicable, evil person.

[edbermac]

99. #11 Don't sleep with your underage students.

[Odin2005]

100. Note to my fellow men: If she does not say "yes" it's FUCKING RAPE. Got it?

[Nye Bevan]

101. And even if she *does* say "yes", if she happens to be 13 years old, it's *still* RAPE.

Despite what the many Roman Polanski apologists claim.

[Odin2005]

105. Yup.

[WinkyDink]

103. How are people missing the point here?! It's a RIPOSTE to those disingenuous "How Women Should Act"

blatherers! "Don't wear short skirts. Don't walk in deserted areas."
ET CETERA.

Of COURSE it seems like a "complete waste of time"---because it belabors, deliberately, what should be ALREADY CLEAR TO MALES BUT APPARENTLY IS NOT, to too many.

[Odin2005]

106. Some posters are going through the knee-jerk "YOU ARE A MAN-HATER" routine.

[laundry_queen]

111. Not only that (which I totally agree with)

But I think this poster could also be directed towards women, in general, who are often too ashamed to come forward after a rape because they have internalized society's view that somehow they must have done something wrong. I was date raped by a friend - someone I had known since kindergarten and had dated off and on. I drank too much and he invited me to his house (he still lived at home, I was a teen) after a party to watch a movie. Well, it quickly became obvious he wasn't interest in a movie and he raped me (I said no many times and tried to push him away). I was ashamed I let it happen because 1. I was drunk and 2. I had known (and loved) him over the years and thought maybe I had misunderstood something. I never did a darn thing about it because of being ashamed (this was in the days before date rape was even a term), plus he continued to victimize me afterwards, telling everyone in our small town lies about how I was all over him. I had recently broken up with a boyfriend and he was told I must've gotten over him pretty quick to sleep with this other guy. I was totally humiliated. There was no way I'd have come forward and have to defend myself and my morals (and drinking and some one night stands) in court in front of that small town. Found out later he'd done this before. He's married now and I wonder if he rapes his wife.

Anyhow, this kind of poster lets women know that it is in NO WAY their fault and they have nothing to be ashamed of. It changes the societal narrative and can give some victims a sense of relief from feeling responsible for something that happened to them. It puts the blame squarely where it belongs - on the shoulder of the rapist.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nye Bevan]

104. Here's #13 for Dominique Strauss-Kahn

13. If you're staying in a hotel and the maid walks in when you are naked, say "excusez-moi" and ask her to come back later.

[seabeyond]

110. see

i think i am falling in love with you.

and no, if a poster says this, doesnt mean...

ya ya ya

i would have my sons read this, just for the jolt, but they get it, too. they would probably preceive it as you do.

[tammywammy]

107. LOVE IT!!!! k&r

[Ripley]

114. Ever wonder why so many great women left DU?

This thread is a perfect example.

While the words of this particular poster about Stopping Rape have been around for many years and were posted here at DU at least once in the last 10 years, the responses today tell it all.

"Liberal" men here at DU believe that women should not walk alone, etc.

They don't seem to understand that those constraints upon "rapists" are exactly the constraints put upon females.

Irony is lost upon the dullards.

One way to stop rape is to punish the rapist not the rape victim in court. 75% of rapists walk.

Rape is not funny, cool, or just a "sex crime" as so many believe.

[TalkingDog]

118. I once had a vicious argument with a male friend when I gave him my new idea for reducing crime

about 15 years ago. It was something along this line.

He was horrified and furious and said that nobody should have to live like they are a criminal. That it was worse than being in jail.

When I re-contextualized it, allowing him to understand that women have to live that way every day, his mouth literally fell open and he sat there catching flies for about one full minute.

Yeah... some people simply can't see life from another person's point of view. I've always made the assumption liberals excelled at that. Guess I was wrong.

[Ripley]

123. Thanks for the OP

I saw it and thought "yay, along with OWS there might be a feminist resurrection happening here."

Apparently not.

Feminist seems to be a dirty word here.

[Withywindle]

155. This is something a lot of men, even very smart and well-meaning ones

just DO. Not. Get.


If we, as women, actually followed all the advice we get about how to avoid rape, we would live VERY restricted, limited, constrained, isolated lives. We would be constantly self-conscious about our clothes. We would have to turn down any job that ever might POSSIBLY lead to us being out alone after dark, and we can CERTAINLY kiss enjoying social nightlife goodbye. We would have to go back to Victorian ideas about chaperoned dating (and guess what, women still got raped then too. A lot.) We would never be able to speak to a man we didn't know (no, not even "Are you in line?" or "Got a cigarette?" or "Do you know which way is State Street?") and we would never be able to spend social time with men we did know--and just imagine how much we'd get yelled at for being "stuck up" then.

And even if we did all these things and consented to live a life of fear and constant self-protection? There'd still be rape. Because victims really *don't* get a fucking say in whether they get raped or not, and all that advice is mostly magical thinking, the same kind of thing that taken to its logical conclusion winds up blaming cancer patients for not thinking positively enough.

That's what the poster is about. The kind of culture that treats rape as some kind of inanimate force of nature, like earthquakes or something. Rape is caused by rapists. Don't scrutinize the victims. Scrutinize the rapists. Do you know a rapist? Chances are you do. Most of the time, a rapist is not a rabid stranger in the bushes. It's someone who seems perfectly "normal" who victimizes people on dates, at parties, in a relationship, on the job, in their homes, etc. Someone familiar, someone you know. Pay attention to dodgy attitudes - and this applies to EVERYONE. Yes, it means men might have to scrutinize themselves or their buddies if they're serious about wanting to stop rape. (So might women - yes, women can rape. Nowhere near as common but it does happen.) Yes, this is going to be uncomfortable and break the "man code." A lot of the angry reactions this poster gets suggests that a lot of people are not ready to accept the reality of that.

[harmonicon]

192. Whoa, whoa, whoa!!

Sure, you can say, "got a cigarette?", and if I say "no", we're square, but if I say "yes", and you smoke it, there's gonna be some rapin'; that's the deal right? I can't even count the times I've had to be like, "stop you're crying - you smoked the cigarette, didn't you?".

[Starry Messenger]

175. Thank you TalkingDog.

You are doing powerful work.

[Jamastiene]

119. Thank you.

Well said.

[Odin2005]

120. I am ashamed that it took my best friend being raped to make me realize that.

:(

[Sparkly]

121. Right. It's up to women not to "ask for it."

Whether it's taking risks, tempting fate, being stupid, etc. -- it's still about what SHE did/didn't do.

Even trying to point out this "blame the victim" mentality just makes it surface.

[Nye Bevan]

131. I was shocked by the apologists for Roman Polanski and Dominique Strauss-Kahn.

I can see that many DUers (both men and women) would react negatively to this kind of stuff.

[harmonicon]

196. Apologists for Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the non-criminal?

I was far more shocked by those who refused acknowledge that we have a justice system for a reason and that all people accused of crimes are not necessarily guilty of those crimes. It sure did help weaken the Socialists chances in the next French election though.

[Nye Bevan]

286. That would be Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the "rutting chimpanzee" (nt)

[uppityperson]

144. I try to be civil, sometimes it is difficult.

Comparing the stigma and onus of rape to car theft, pfft.

Thank you.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

153. Oh for fucks sake,

I am a 210 pound man and there are plenty of places I won't walk alone or suggest anyone else male or female walk alone. These constraints come only out of a healthy sense of self preservation. I also refrain from drinking myself unconscious and potentially compromising situations with strangers.(see: self preservation.)

A gender politics interpretation of the most elementary steps anyone living without a death wish might take to avoid harm is ridiculous.

[Skittles]

170. disappointing that YOU don't.fucking.get.it

:thumbsdown:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

171. I get it. I just reject it.

If you want to place an ideological manifesto above real world personal safety - that is your business. We live in a world where a hobo stabbed another hobo to death for less than 50 cents worth of empty soda and beer cans. You can make all the pithy rhetorical appeals you like... i'm locking myself in my car. Most people would rather never come to harm than have a discussion assigning blame for it.

[harmonicon]

187. Please don't say "75% of rapists walk".

You mean people charged with rape, right? Not all of them are rapists. Seeing first-hand the damage that a false allegation of rape can do to a person's life, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It really does happen, and it really is terrible.

I think a much bigger problem - and you'd agree - is that plenty of rapes are never even reported.

[uppityperson]

302. 75% means most of us never report it to the police or, if we do, nothing comes of it.

That's the bigger problem. After all, I was living with the guy so how could it be rape since we'd had consensual sex in the past? After all, I should have known better than to walk downtown in the evening because there might be someone with a knife waiting for me. After all, I should have known better than to hang out with friends and their friends because one of the people I didn't know might take a hankering to me and not take No for an answer, and besides, I was having a few drinks with my friends, and that "friend" of theirs.

Why report it? I'd have to pprove I wasn't a slut, had never lied, what with having no witnesses it would be my word against his.

[redqueen]

296. +1

[AngkorWot]

299. The overwhelming stupidity of the average post.

[Jamastiene]

117. K&R

It is very clear from some of the replies in this thread just how ingrained the always blame the woman mentality has become.

For those who don't get the picture in the OP: It's not the victim's fault they got raped. It's the rapist's fault. I cannot believe anyone has to explain that. :eyes:

[MellowDem]

132. The poster does not address the real issue...

If the point is to show society it's not the victim's fault, it succeeds I suppose, to the extent that that strawman is real.

I agree that it's not the victim's fault, ever. I honestly believe very few people think that it is ever the victim's fault.

I also think that the reason people rape others has nothing to do with the perception that it is the woman's fault.

I don't like how the poster makes this a hetero/male/female issue. Some women do rape men (crazy, I know!) and a lot of men are raped by other men. Hell, I even bet some women rape other women. I think acknowledging that would be better for having a broad and accurate perspective on what rape really is all about.

If this organization believes that rape is caused by a general societal perception that it is OK to rape women, and that many rapists are really just nice people who have been raised in a society where they think it's OK to rape others, then I don't think the organization understands rape or can address what causes it.

This poster is very silly and seems to diminish the discussion while distracting from the underlying issues.

[seabeyond]

133. women commit about 2% of all sexual offenses and their abuse often involves their own child or child

women commit about 2% of all sexual offenses and their abuse often involves their own child or children, but this statistic does not mention how many, if any, of these cases of abuse were rape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender
____________________________

2%

is it really necessary to say... women do it, too? really?

[MellowDem]

134. I think it is...

and I think the idea that most or even a substantial part of society think it is ever a woman's fault is not true and that this is mostly a strawman.

It's important to portray that many victims of rape are men as well. It portrays rape for what it really is, and doesn't inaccurately portray it as only a problem for heterosexual male predators and their female prey. That is a bit outdated.

I don't think it needs to be highlighted, but enough victims of rape are men that it's not something that should be portrayed as women only being the victims. Most rapes are done by acquaintances or more familiar people. The problem usually is not horny stranger males going on a raping spree.

[comtec]

337. 2% of REPORTED yes I completely agree with you

I imagine the unreported is many TIMES larger.
what man will admit he's been raped by a woman?
what boy that has sex with an older woman would see it in that context?

then there's the same-gender abuse. those numbers are grossly under reported.

the OP does nothing but sit on the very people who are on your side.

I know most of the women here don't see that.
and I am contradicting myself by even posting here.

OPs like this only cause division, and don't further the conversation.
and yes a very serious conversation has to happen regarding sex and genders in this country.

Part of that conversation has to include women changing their ways as well.

now before you attack me (oops too late) what I mean is abuse.

usually it's mental and emotional, sometimes it's physical. its something that is impossible to detail properly, and since getting out of MY very damaging, and abusive relationship, is a disturbing revelation.

far more men than most women here are willing to admit, are living in an abusive relationship where they are manipulated, lied to, beaten down emotionally if they are to bring it up, or assert themselves.

the problem with the OP is that it's only an attack, it's not meant to start a conversation.
and the conversation that is NEEDED, cant happen if you come to the table attacking your allies.

[seabeyond]

339. all i perspective. as i said in a post above, when i first read this a while ago

my initial reaction was wow. uh. ya. duh.

being a female raised being told all the things i needed to do to stay safe, (and when i was unsafe it had nothing to do with any suggestions), i heeld the responsibility with rape. it was very healthy for me to read the post.

as i said in another post... if it were about women using men as a wallet, i would be all over it saying, ya. agree. and not taking it personally cause it is not something i do and something that pisses me off and something i ALWAYS speak out against when i hear a woman/girl using a man for a wallet.

and no... youa re not being attacked. and no, i have not attacked you

[tammywammy]

137. This reminds me of an article I read a few weeks ago "Schrödinger’s Rapist"

Schrödinger’s Rapist: or a guy’s guide to approaching strange women without being maced

Gentlemen. Thank you for reading.

Let me start out by assuring you that I understand you are a good sort of person. You are kind to children and animals. You respect the elderly. You donate to charity. You tell jokes without laughing at your own punchlines. You respect women. You like women. In fact, you would really like to have a mutually respectful and loving sexual relationship with a woman. Unfortunately, you don’t yet know that woman—she isn’t working with you, nor have you been introduced through mutual friends or drawn to the same activities. So you must look further afield to encounter her.

So far, so good. Miss LonelyHearts, your humble instructor, approves. Human connection, love, romance: there is nothing wrong with these yearnings.

Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.

“But wait! I don’t want that, either!”
-snip-
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

Very interesting article.

[Nye Bevan]

138. Any guy who does not already know the stuff in the article

as well as the stuff on the poster in the OP, is a creep who should be avoided.

[Chorophyll]

142. Dude, obviously there are lots and lots and lots of guys

who don't know this stuff. Including fathers, brothers, boyfriends and priests.

The poster (for the zillionth time) is not aimed solely at men who might commit rape. It is aimed at society as a whole, which tends to blame the victim in cases of sexual assault.

What is so hard to understand about this?

[Nye Bevan]

143. "Lots and lots and lots of guys" who don't know not to "put drugs in women's drinks"?

Really?

And you don't agree that any guy who doesn't already know this is a creep?

[canetoad]

152. OK, time to put a distinct end to your bullshit

First, I question why you are so opposed to this message. According to you, it's a no brainer and no sensible man would ever rape.

Once again; why is this message so offensive to you?

You have played word games in this thread, used semantics to hammer home non-existent points and in general, insulted educated women with the proviso that you, personally, don't approve of rape.

Now I'm telling you to back off. You come across like a plantation owner defending slavery because he treats his slaves well. You come across like a patronising, paternalistic arsehole, a boy's club member.

You turn the discussion around to be all about YOU and your experience while professing to be a spokesman for intelligent males. I'm sorry, you've made a big arsehole of yourself in this thread and I hope the women of DU remember it.

[Nye Bevan]

154. I'm not opposed to the message at all, obviously.

What I don't agree with is that there are "lots and lots and lots of guys" including "fathers, brothers, boyfriends and priests" who (1) don't know not to put drugs in women's drinks; (2) don't know not to rape a woman who is walking by herself; (3) don't know not to rape a woman whose car has broken down; (4) don't know not to rape a woman who gets into a lift; etc. etc.

Do *you* know "lots and lots and lots of guys" who don't know this stuff?

Oh and BTW, I can see that you like the word "arsehole" since you used it twice, but DU is a better experience for everyone when posters don't resort to name-calling. Just a hint. :-)

[canetoad]

156. Then *you* have obviously never studied the stats

Asterisks are cute but please avoid them in serious discussion. They do not replace conventional punctuation marks, they do not make asinine comments any more memorable.

It's difficult to decipher exactly what your questions are because of your absurd use of asterisks.

I'll do my best. Yes, I know lots of men who are not aware of the basic premise that No means No.

It's fairly obvious that you have set youself up as some kind of male devils-advocate here. You may be well intentioned, you may not be. I doubt, if you happen to be a white American, you would presume to co-opt the feelings of Black Americans and tell them how they should think.

The same goes here. You are in territory that does not include, welcome or embrace you and you don't have the grace or sense to realise this fact.

[Nye Bevan]

157. If lots of your friends don't understand that "no" means "no"

I suggest you educate them, or get new friends. To me, people like that are no better than overt racists.

[canetoad]

158. How do you take the leap

from people I know to 'friends'.

Stupid comment. I'm not responsible for others.

[Nye Bevan]

208. "I'm not responsible for others". That kind of attitude is the problem here.

If a friend or acquaintance of mine stated that "no" did not mean "no", or that it was OK to rape a woman who was walking alone or who left her window open, I would not hesitate to express my disgust at this person. My reaction would not be to shrug my shoulders and say "well, I'm not responsible for others".

I would suggest that you more actively oppose the attitude of these "lots of men" that you know who are not aware of "the basic premise that no means no". I don't think "I'm not responsible for others" really cuts it here.

[seabeyond]

215. i tell my guys, that they are the ones with most influence of their peers.

that they speaking out are the ones that will be heard.

that they have an obligation. and if they dont, for whatever reason, i respect them that much less.

but you havent answered. have you never heard men (generally younger guys) talk about getting date drunk? or pushing her for sex? with male peers it is not so in the face about grabbing off the street, breaking thru a window, drugging, but more subtle.

we see it in movies. we see it in ads. we see it all around us. and i know i have heard men (younger guys) talk about getting date drunk.

surely you have.

isnt that the same as going about creating a scenario where a girl does not want sex, but is being manipulated into sex? and isnt that something a guy should tell his friend is unacceptable. not cute. not a joke.

[Nye Bevan]

276. To answer your question, not personally,

I did not go to college in the US so was never involved in the frat boy stuff.

I have, however, heard of stuff like this going on (men trying to get women drunk so they are more likely to agree to sex). What is interesting, however, is that this is *not* addressed anywhere on the poster in the OP. If the poster had focused on telling men that it is wrong to try to get women drunk for sex (as opposed to saying that it is wrong to rape a woman whose car has broken down, or a woman who gets into a lift) I would be very supportive of it.

If a man thinks it is OK to rape a woman whose car has broken down, I don't think a poster will change his mind. But if a man thinks it acceptable to ply a woman with beer to try to get her to agree to sex, I think this is the kind of attitude that can be improved through education.

[Name removed]

263. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nye Bevan]

268. If you knew "lots of men" who are "not aware of the basic premise that no means no" (post 156)

would you try to educate them, or would you shrug your shoulders and say "I'm not responsible for others" (post 158)? I was advocating the former.

BTW on DU it's generally considered better form to make your points without profanity and name-calling. :-)

[Swede]

271. Ladies and gentlemen,I rest my case.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

304. I think you misread what he wrote. I had to read it a couple times to figure out

what the problem was. Please reread "My reaction would not be to shrug my shoulders and say "well, I'm not responsible for others"."

[MedicalAdmin]

334. +1

[Chorophyll]

257. You have a lovely way of not responding to what's actually being said.

Once again, we should educate males from an early age to NOT RAPE, rather than teach females that they should never go out at night, never go out in a short skirt, never go out period.

Why are you so disturbed by this?

[uppityperson]

306. Of course he's a creep but how do we know that AHEAD of time?

Having been hanging out with friends and being raped by one of their "friends", I guess I was stupid for not knowing everyone at the party and still drinking. Though having been raped by a live in boyfriend, that kind of shoot the "stranger" argument.

[tammywammy]

150. I agree.

As a rape victim, sometimes you don't know they're a creep until too late though. :(

The poster is more effective at getting rid of the notion that it's the woman's fault for being raped.

[AtheistCrusader]

160. It's also an attitude adjustment for younger men/boys.

Males who should grow up without ambiguity where the 'blame' lays for a rape. That it doesn't matter how short a woman's skirt, it doesn't matter if maybe she had one too many drinks, it doesn't matter if she might be in a 'bad' part of town or club, or place where sex is 'common'.

As a society, we seem to be very confused on this point, and it is little surpise we keep raising boys into men that remain unable to reason out that it is not appropriate to have non-explicitly-consensual sex under any circumstances.

[Beacool]

139. Women: Carry a gun and blow his nuts off.

:shrug:

[Abin Sur]

151. Don't shoot to maim.

If you're going to use a gun on someone because you're in fear of your life, don't try for trick shots. Double-tap to the center of mass.

[Beacool]

240. Actually I was being facetious.

I don't own a gun. I see the good intentions of the Scottish poster, but how effective is it? Rape is more about power and dominating someone than it is about sex. Appealing to these men's better angels is probably an exercise in futility. Sexual predators (whether of adults or children) have the highest incidence of recidivism.

:(

[Abin Sur]

242. Given that appealing to these men's better angels is probably an exercise in futility,

women should at least have the option of defending themselves with deadly force.

[Beacool]

260. I agree.

:-)

[LanternWaste]

318. Who is stating they do not have that option?

Who is stating they do not have that option?

[Bucky]

222. You might want to reword the second half of your advice there

[Beacool]

241. It was a lame attempt to be funny.

I don't think that any poster will stop sexual predators.

:(

[gtar100]

163. Awesome! Yes, it's the men who are responsible.

Took me by surprise. But I get the message. I only wish the reprobates who need it would read it.

[caseymoz]

164. Sarcasm has a very poor success rate at stopping rape.

Just sayin'. And criminals are unlikely to take sound advice. This "poster" is pretty insulting-- to the intelligence of women and men. And it's unfunny.

I might feel dumb or ashamed if I got robbed after I left my door unlocked, but that's far different than feeling guilt for robbing myself. If just being reminded to lock my doors or not walking in my neighborhood after dark makes me feel like I'm being accused of theft, then something has gone wrong in my head about it. I have gone insane. For the creators of this "advice" to suggest this attitude is even mentally healthy concerning rape is harmful.

Feeling shame and feeling guilt are far different things. If some women feel that sound safety advice is condescending, might I suggest rejecting it in other areas, like stopping at red lights? And then suggesting that it's the healthy thing to do because only evil vehicles will flatten you?

There's terrible feelings of shame about rape anyway, made worse by the process of criminal justice. If women feel like they're being blamed for rape, like they're the ones put on trial, remember that not one woman has ever been convicted of her own rape. Yes, they may be shamed, but to say they are made to like they are guilty of it is a distortion.

[canetoad]

165. And doesn't this poster

Put the responsibility right back where it belongs?

I'd like you to expound further on how this poster is an insult to women.

[caseymoz]

322. Because it makes error and culpability interchangeable.

To find this funny, a woman would have to think that any criticism of error is really an accusation of culpability. An insult to a woman's intelligence, to be sure. Maybe it's supposed to lampoon people who try to say a woman got herself raped by not taking countermeasures. The problem is, this joke joins those fools in the very same error, by acknowledging, yes, error is guiltiness.

It's likely more harmful than mere insult. It makes good sound advice, mostly the same measures men would take to prevent themselves from being mugged, sound like condescending insults. Meaning that at least fifty percent of the population won't remind their lovers, their friends, and their sisters about it. Also puts women under social pressure to defy these measures. So, statistically, I think it might lead to a few more successful rapists a year the way an anti-seat-belt campaign would lead to a few more auto injuries and deaths.

The cost of having good advice is that you feel dumb if you don't follow it and unlucky thing happens. Maybe a few people, women and men, will try to say by not taking the countermeasures a woman's responsible for her rape. No,a woman can take every measure on that list and still get raped because the criminal's actions are not in the her control, and a lot of the rest is just luck.

Finally, this joke's also insulting to ninety-eight percent of men and a comparable proportion of lesbians. The criminal two percent that aren't insulted will laugh, but they won't follow the advice. The wrong people are laughing here. It's really a fail. I think Scotland is going down the tubes.

[seabeyond]

323. my white son, at a young age asks, why should blacks be mad at him. he has done nothing

now, he was very young. like 11, 12. i explained why blacks may be angry at him. and the inherent privileges and entiltements that he has, merely being a white male in our world.

he understood. has allowed him to be more compassionate, understanding, and empathitic with others angers and frustrations and pains.

i am sorry it is such a struggle for you men that cannot understand that even though it is not addressing your behavior, comprehending the other gender with understanding, empathy and compassion can take all of us a long way.

[caseymoz]

342. Now you're just being condescending to me.

You decided to ignore my point about making error and culpability interchangeable and instead decided, "No, he's just having a sexist moment." You also decided to ignore my other point that this "joke" may lead to a few more successful rapes. I guess you ignored my whole post, and decided if I objected, it must be for a reason you had prepared. So you can make a statement about lack of understanding, empathy or compassion, which might or might not apply to me, for all you care. Ironically, you seemed to lack of any understanding of what I said, and you empathize and have compassion for emotions I don't feel. So stop preaching to me about it.

I'll try again: I'll provide that kind of comparison to racism. This poster reminds of the Tea Party having a protest in California because the NAACP wasn't doing enough to restrain Black and Hispanic gangs. There was a basic error in thinking there: like the NAACP has any influence over the criminal element? Why not demand that the Knights of Columbus restrain the Italian Mafia? This poster makes the very same error (and worse).

(The fact that people make the error for real shows the "joke" isn't really funny.)

But the fact that it's insulting is almost a side-point. And, I could always say, to myself, "No, they're advising other men not to rape, not me." This "joke" if catches on, is going to make it makes it harder for guys to help women prevent rape. Moreover, it makes good advice that guys use to prevent themselves from getting mugged sound condescending. It sends the message women should flout preventive measures as beneath their dignity, and being "chicken." That's where my compassion, understanding and empathy is.

And we're not talking about privilege because we're talking about rape. It's something that maybe two percent of the male population does, and when they do it, they're not privileged to do it. They go to prison if it's proved. Nor do I feel privileged to have them as part of my gender.

[seabeyond]

343. no, i am not being condescending. the example is parallel and i thought if saying it outside of

gender issue, you may be able to understand better. and yes, much of it is about male entitlement and privilege. but if you cannot even see the point of this point, it would surely be a waste of time to go further with entitlement and privilege. and no.... this will not cause more rape, because if you understand the vast majority of rape it has nothing to do with the stranger popping out of the bushes or climbing thru a window.

most ALL women inherently know the dangers of being alone..... this Op is not going to change that.

[caseymoz]

346. So, you begin by repeating your previous wrong point.

I didn't say it would "cause" rape. I said it would cause more planning and attempts to become successful rapes.

If when you say the "vast majority" of rape has nothing to do with "the stranger . . ." and by that, I guess you mean most are date rapes or familiar rapes, that still means that a significant minority do. And not only that, those same rapists might take up stranger rape if given more opportunities.

If you mean something more theoretical or abstract, then help me, I'm lost.

You also don't seem to disregard the effects of propaganda and misinformation. If you make commercials ridiculing the use of seat belts or making fun of cancer risk in smoking, I assure you, at least a few people will stop wearing seat belts or will start/restart smoking.

No, I don't understand you're parallel example. I'm just far more insulted by it than the joke. And I don't believe I've felt insulted enough by this joke to subconsciously react to it as an attack on my "privilege."

[seabeyond]

347. we disagree. on about every one of your points. nt

[caseymoz]

371. Because you've already assigned my motives

And you could only deal with my points not by looking at material fact, but through the motives and emotions you've assigned to them. Unfortunately, those are all theoretical, or hypothetical, and you can't consider if even one them is in error, because then everything you've said is invalid.

You didn't choose to correct me on whether you meant date rape or "familiar" rape is what you meant when you said that most rapes aren't from strangers, so I'll take it that I guessed right on that point.

Hell, you even chose to punt on the point about propaganda. I hope you think about it when you glance at FOX-News, though.

[seabeyond]

374. dude, i dont need to be a part of conversation if you are telling me what i think.

and the results of my thinking. that is pure guessing on your part and a poor way of arguing. i disagree with about everything you say and the nicest way to end the conversation since i feel you are not listening is to simply say, i do not agree with you.

you made about 5, 6 points that i dont agree with.

i feel it is a waste of my time to go thru every argument and explain why i disagree. i dont think you will be receptive, so i am not bothering.

thru out a post of your, i see a number of insults. and to me, that allows me to conclude that you are closed minded and a lazy debater. you do not have the insight, the empathy to understand a womans perspective. some men do. even some boys. you are not one of them.

:hi:

[Fokker Trip]

166. I think its important to see thais a young male might see it.

Young males are mostly pack animals and Scotland is full of gang mentality (look up Glasgow NEDS, knife violence and alcoholism there, its horrendous)

What the dominant male says or does OK is often just mindlessly echoed by those who are around him.

This poster gets males who read it to actually think about the scenarios presented. You're right in that I don't think any actual rapists will read this and stop, but it may cause those who look the other way because of their "gang" to think again.

At least it will start conversations and that is a start in the right direction.

The poster relies on sarcasm and sarcasm is the bedrock of much of the humour in the UK. Its often noted over there that Americans don't get sarcasm (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this but I've heard it and seen it written many times).

Googles slogan "Don't be evil" has also created a meme that can be usefully exploited.

[MrScorpio]

174. Anyone here who's not a rapist shouldn't be offended by this.

Why this OP is controversial at all is a mystery to lil ol' me.

[vets74]

190. Why would a rapist be offended ?

SIOKIYAR applies, too. Plus dead interns in the offices.

[lumberjack_jeff]

321. Exactly.

Can't get through to the criminals? Well let's whack some non-criminals over the head with our brick filled purses. It may not do anything about rape but it does make me feel better.

[CreekDog]

354. If you're so against stereotyping, why don't you ever show up in threads where women are stereotyped

excluding the ones where you're actually doing the stereotyping...but i digress...

when there are threads where women are stereotyped, you're nowhere to be found and you're certainly not calling "foul" that it happens.

maybe you're only against one type of stereotype and one type of unfairness (when it comes to gender) and that's when you think it's unfair to men.

your bias is showing.

please. :eyes:

[Lance_Boyle]

191. Read all the replies saying this 'puts the onus on MEN.'

If those all said "puts the onus on rapists" I would agree with you. But this OP and much of the blatantly sexist commentary that follows it are just lashing out at men as if every one of us is a rapist or potential rapist. It's insulting, and would not be tolerated if it was directed at any other group of people. I am not a rapist or a potential rapist. The OP and the sickeningly misandrist commentary once again highlight DU's double standard on sexism.

[MrScorpio]

205. Do you think that women give off signals that they want to be raped by men?

Because if you don't who else would the onus be on?

That OP doesn't insult me as a man who has never raped and never will rape.

As a man who's the same I can't see why you're insulted by it.

Some men rape.... That's a simple fact of life.

All it takes to distinguish the men who rape from those who do is the choice to do so.

[Pacifist Patriot]

209. Interestingly the poster doesn't mention the word "men" at all.

However, I completely agree with you. I try to stay gender neutral when discussing the issue. For one thing, I personally know a man who was a victim of rape. It's much better to stick to "rapist" / "victim" and leave it at that.

[seabeyond]

217. men are not a wallet, dont treat them as one.

if there was an OP stating men are not a wallet, i would assume they were talking to women. and i would not be offeneded. i would be in total agreement without feeling that i was being told i use men as a wallet. it is something that society feeds women, and something SOME women abuse. i would be all over it without being offended. even though i have never treated man as a wallet. even though there are men that use women for $.

i would still be able to handle the OP without

but but but

knowing the intent and the facts...

[comtec]

340. The problem Sea, is that you're a fairly critical thinker

you're capable of looking at gender issues form more than one angle.
My main issue about the OP is that it only create division, as opposed to starting a conversation.
Looking at all the posts. you may agree with me, there is no conversation going on here.
only one side attacking or defending.

Most men, correctly, aren't posting here, or attacking the OP for the gender secluding clap trap for what it is.
NONE of us posting are in fact saying that ANY form of rape is acceptable.

point is, the assumption that ONLY straight man on woman rape exists out there.
that women are incapable of "returning the favor" when we all know that's not true.

a very very dear friend of mine was raped this year... and if we find the person who did it, that's the end of them.

I understand. I truly do. I had to push her to go to the police, then push her to get tested.... AFTER she finally told me. then months of convincing her that she was NOT at fault.

[LanternWaste]

202. Being purposefully obtuse is certainly not the same thing as "not getting it"

Odd. Some of the reactions here are no less than righteous indignation against the OP. That's rather telling in and of itself (and a bit creepy too).

While being purposefully obtuse is certainly not the same thing as "not getting it" in this context, it is indeed a rather dramatic way to advertise both negative character and bunker-bias.

[myrna minx]

204. K&R n.t

[cate94]

207. This is brilliant!

[raccoon]

216. Rec'd. I love it! nt

[knightmaar]

218. I didn't get it at first either

If you're a man and you don't get it like I didn't get it, then you're probably thinking "What the hell? I don't rape women. What is this crap? Why are you lecturing me?"

The point isn't to point fingers at all men. It feels that way sometimes, but - and I'll be quite frank here - you're being oversensitive just like women are always accused of being. (Maybe it's your time of month?)

The point is to make you sit up and realize what it's like to be a woman. That's a really hard thing to take on board and it's not something you can actually achieve.

When you walk across a parking lot late at night, do you carry a cup of hot coffee in case you have to throw it in an attacker's face? Do you lace your keys between your fingers in case you have to stab somebody with them?

The idea, as far as I can tell, is to try to get men to understand what it's like to be a woman receiving these reams of advice that tell her, basically, that there are hoards of rapists out there and - furthermore - if the woman is raped, people are going to blame her if her behaviour wasn't exemplary.

[seabeyond]

231. this is such a good post, for so many reasons. thank you. nt

[redqueen]

261. Thank you so much for this post. (nt)

[lumberjack_jeff]

262. No, you're still not getting it.

The point is to make you sit up and realize what it's like to be a woman. That's a really hard thing to take on board and it's not something you can actually achieve.

That isn't the point at all. Women collectively aren't expected to be culpable and responsible for the actions of any woman individually. Nor are they called stupid probable rapists as Skittles did upthread for objecting to it.

I accept that it's unpleasant to hear well-intended but scary self defense advice to own the responsibility of your security against bad people. In return, you should accept the idea that it's unpleasant to hear ill-intended, grossly sterotypical and insulting advice that I should be responsible for the actions of any and every rapist by virtue of sharing the same plumbing.

[jeff47]

277. I'm afraid it's you not getting it.

All women are expected to live their lives according to the "tips" given to avoid rape. You find that acceptable, because you think women are responsible for stopping their rapist. It's 'well-intentioned', and just 'unpleasant' according to your post.

The OP here is turning that advice on it's head to point out how unfair that situation is. Your anger over that demonstrates just how wrong the situation is. After all, if it's just 'well-intentioned' but 'unpleasant', why are you getting your boxers in such a twist over it?

[knightmaar]

312. I'm not getting what, precisely?

You accept that it's unpleasant for women to be told that they are constantly under threat of being raped.

You also accept that it's unpleasant that women will be blamed for their rapes if they don't follow all the steps, or have sex toys in their bedrooms, or wear short skirts.

How magnanimous of you. I don't accept this part of our society and want to change it.

More to the point, the original post did not accuse all men of being rapists. There was no stereotyping involved. This is simply oversensitivity that you read into the post because you perceive most rapists to be men and you are a man. The post, in fact, was directed at men who commit rape. In that sense, it is satire, as men who commit rapes aren't likely to be affected. On the other hand, it does shine the light on the situation in a different way from the original list on which it was based.

It could have been enlightening. It could have inspired you to wonder what we can do to change our society to make it less dangerous for women, so that fewer of these precautions are necessary.

But it didn't inspire you that way.

[seabeyond]

316. how come it is so easy for you?

so many men, really good men, men i love, have such a challenge with this and i dont really get why. i can suppose reasons, but that is not really knowing why it is so hard for men to accept, feel, see it as you do.

and i loved your experience with princess party. huge eeeew, for me, lol. my 4 yr old niece is told by her father she is a princess. she comes to my house, wanting to be a princess. i say. .... eeeeew. lol. i say, what happens to you if your prince doesnt show up to rescue you? should you learn to take care of self. eb a doctor, teacher, indian chief...

so it is a big game with us. she sees me, and throw out princess. and i say.... eeeeew

[knightmaar]

326. It was *not* easy for me

I spent *years* being angry at all those feminists and their "reverse discrimination". To be fair, I actually read a newspaper article that started out with the phrase "Men! Rape is wrong!" and experienced other such nonsense. But really, blaming one undergrad newspaper article and other ignorant nonsense for years of stubbornly refusing to empathize with the general female population was a bit much.

Sometime around when I went to that princess party, something clicked for me. That and the bit where I read a list of preparations women make when they walk across an empty parking lot (hot cup of coffee, laced keys, Dial "9-1-" and be ready to hit "1" etc.)

Eventually, people can learn. Getting them to stop arguing and start listening is different in every case, though.

[seabeyond]

330. interesting.

thank you.

[MedicalAdmin]

338. "You can lead a horses ass to water ...

and the SOB is still probably gonna take a dump in the watering hole."



My dad used to say that every now and again. I really didn't understand when I was a kid but I get it now.

[uppityperson]

308. Thank you for this post.

[MedicalAdmin]

336. Excellent points and eye opening.

Thanks for posting that and welcome to DU.

[Bucky]

220. Perpetuating the myths that most rape is by strangers and that it's mostly about sex

The poster means to raise awareness, and that's a good thing, but I'm not sure the patronizing humor works here.

[LanternWaste]

235. What specifically leads you to the conclusion

What specifically leads you to the conclusion that the satire doesn't work here?

[knightmaar]

239. That's the only thing I see wrong with it

It is trying to promote empathy, trying to make men understand what it's like to receive bizarre, "blaming the wrong person" advice on a daily basis.

But most rapists aren't like strangers. They're the guys in #1, #7 and #9. Statistically, it's a guy she knows who found some way to coerce or threaten her, or slipped a drug into her drink, who seemed like a nice guy but sort-of kind-of implies he won't take the boat back to shore until "later, if you know what I mean."

So this takes us away from the technical facts of how rapes are actually executed.

But on the side of encouraging empathy, yeah, it works.

[jeff47]

280. It only works when it's the advice given to women? (nt)

[mistertrickster]

351. "Patronizing humor" . . . sums it up perfectly. +1 nt

[SidDithers]

230. K&R. That's really clever...

and puts the responsibility squarely where it should be.

Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

Sid

[Swede]

265. K&R

Why some in this thread cannot get this is strange.

[redqueen]

298. I should have posted this blog about privilege here.

It explains rather well why some don't get it. (And we all know why assholes refuse to even try.)

https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37

[AnneD]

267. Love it.....

takes advice that women are given and spins it on it's head.

[mistertrickster]

283. Wow. Brilliant. Stop crime by telling criminals to stop being criminals.

Not really that clever, is it?

[LanternWaste]

287. I'd say raising awareness and acting as a catalyst for discussion is clever

I'd say raising awareness and acting as a catalyst for discussion is clever (a rather long discussion if DU is any indicator).

I imagine it depends if one reads all material literally, or allows for interpretation, textual criticism and implication.

(However, I am the first to admit that literalism is rather popular... at least amongst big-box fundie churches...)

[mistertrickster]

341. Right, me with my MA in English Lit, what do I know about irony . . . nt

[redqueen]

345. Well somehow the meaning escaped you...

since you took it at face value and seemingly failed to even attempt to discern any other meaning beyond the most obvious (i.e. "this is aimed at rapists, to get them to stop raping").

Blame your teachers, maybe.

[mistertrickster]

348. I got the "deeper" meaning just fine. It just doesn't strike me as very deep.

Also, the implicit subtext that women just wouldn't need to protect themselves if men weren't so vile is pretty stupid and unhelpful.

Men ARE vile . . . well, a lot of them anyway. That's the world we live in now. Women have to protect themselves from the vile ones, as do other men.

The OP is however more clever than taking men's names at random from phone books and posting them publicly under the heading of "POTENTIAL RAPISTS!"

[seabeyond]

356. this is what bothers me. we have media, society as a whole demanding men are vile

men are equating this with manliness, or their manhood, buying into it the same as girls are being fed their worth is their looks and handing sexuality to men, because it is all about the males sexuality.

and then we reinforce it with posts like yours.

on another thread i was talking about how about all the people i hang with are men or boys and they are far from vile. they have character, and are 'ismless. they do not need to protray themselves as vile to feel like men.

i disagree with your post

[mistertrickster]

366. You implicitly already agreed with my post.

You wrote: men are equating this (vileness) with manliness, or their manhood, (and are) buying into it

Correct. You just developed what I wrote.

Thank you.

In no way was I reinforcing the idea that men SHOULD be vile; only that some are and that this fact cannot be immediately remediated.

[seabeyond]

367. i re read what you wrote

about that part. and you are right.

[Name removed]

288. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

291. I wonder if this would help more people to "get it".

On the difference between Good Dogs and Dogs That Need a Newspaper Smack.
https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/

[Blecht]

292. Nice post

Good satire.

And it sure brought out some of the less intelligent members of DU.

[DaveJ]

293. Wierd, looks like the whole site is offline now. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

320. Pity. n/t

[Ken Burch]

324. uh..."REMEMBER not to rape her"??????

:eyes:

[mistertrickster]

349. Right, because every man's first thought would turn to rape . . . kinda dumb, isn't it. nt

[Ken Burch]

350. And wouldn't this mean that the onset of Alzheimer's would turn old men into rapists?

:wtf:

[mistertrickster]

352. Hehehe . . . nt

[a2liberal]

331. K&R (n/t)

[LeftishBrit]

344. +1000!

And no, this isn't anti-any-gender; it's just blaming the criminals and not the victims!

[DaveJ]

355. One must also consider the environment where this is posted

If this poster is displayed around pubs in Scotland, I imagine it might very well prevent a few rapes. A certain male mindset might get drunk and lose a sense of judgement when simply being reminded (of something so obvious to most of us) will help them remain civilized. One can ridicule it all they want, but prevention is all that matters.

[StarryNite]

358. Wow!

:bounce:

[DWilliamsamh]

359. Here are my 10 methods:

1 In the chamber.
2 in the clip.
3 in the clip.
4 in the clip.
5 in the clip.
6 in the clip.
7 in the clip.
8 in the clip.
9 in the clip.
10 in the clip.

[uppityperson]

360. Do you wait until they rape you or shoot them preemptively?

How do you determine when to shoot them? If you had a knife at your throat and your arm held behind your throat, would you still pull out your gun and shoot? How about if you have some friends over at your house, have a few drinks, everyone goes to sleep and you wake to find some asshole on top of you? Shoot your friend?

[seabeyond]

361. i think about this too, whenever i hear this.

started a post and deleted.

[Abin Sur]

363. Hm...a 9 shot magazine. That does narrow it down.

I can't think of many handguns that have a 9 shot magazine. Let's see:

H&K P9S in 9mm.

Older Ruger Mk 1 in .22 LR

Beretta Model 21 in .25 ACP

Hi-Point .45 ACP

The Ruger and Beretta are mouse guns, and the Hi-Point's a piece of junk. I hope for your sake you're using the H&K!



Trivia time: The H&K P9S was the world's first polymer-framed pistol!

[Bonobo]

364. I don't understand this. Surely the OP knows that a rapist would, by definition, not listen.

So what is the point of this OP?

It seems to me a passive aggressive way of saying that men can unwittingly be rapists... as if it is not a volitional act, but rather something that men might accidentally do.

Misguided and purposeless seem to be the best words I can think of to describe this.

It is as stupid as saying "Tips to stop murder" = "Don't shoot or stab someone".

[uppityperson]

368. Hi Bonobo. It isn't aimed at rapists, per se, but getting people talking and thinking about

how women are forced to live in fear because, if they do get raped, too often it is at least implied that it is her fault for walking down a street, for partying with friends and their friends, etc. My complaint about it is that it doesn't go far enough as most of us who have been raped haven't been assaulted by a stranger.

This poster attacks those thoughts that we are fighting against and no, isn't necessarily aimed at rapists.

[Bonobo]

369. Yeah, I see that now. It is an interesting approach. Thanks, UP. nt