Women ride in back on sex-segregated Brooklyn bus line

[brooklynite]

Source: New York World

On the morning of October 12, Melissa Franchy boarded the B110 bus in Brooklyn and sat down near the front. For a few minutes she was left in silence, although the other passengers gave her a noticeably wide berth. But as the bus began to fill up, the men told her that she had to get up. Move to the back, they insisted.

They were Orthodox Jews with full beards, sidecurls and long black coats, who told her that she was riding a “private bus” and a “Jewish bus.” When she asked why she had to move, a man scolded her.

“If God makes a rule, you don’t ask ‘Why make the rule?’” he told Franchy, who rode the bus at the invitation of a New York World reporter. She then moved to the back where the other women were sitting. The driver did not intervene in the incident.

The B110 bus travels between Williamsburg and Borough Park in Brooklyn. It is open to the public, and has a route number and tall blue bus stop signs like any other city bus. But the B110 operates according to its own distinct rules. The bus line is run by a private company and serves the Hasidic communities of the two neighborhoods. To avoid physical contact between members of opposite sexes that is prohibited by Hasidic tradition, men sit in the front of the bus and women sit in the back.

Read more: http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2011/10/18/women-ride-in-back-on-sex-segregated-brooklyn-bus-line/

---

Welcome to the 21st Century...

[Brickbat]

1. Disgusting.

[Botany]

2. Is that bus running on roads & streets that were paid ..

... for w/ public tax money?

God doesn't like women .... they are icky!

[MH1]

22. not so much that 'women are icky' as that 'women cause men to sin'

is the way I take it, anyway.

in either case,

:puke:

[Botany]

35. Religious nut cases

If by just seeing or being next to a women causes you to sin then the problem is w/ you and blaming somebody else for
not keeping to "God's Laws" is pure crap.

Be it Christian Fundies, Hassidic Jews, the Taliban, Hindu warriors, Sikh extremists, Shiites who whip themselves bloody,
and so on the problem is w/ the extremists nut balls

[femrap]

76. All these crazy dudes

need to be fenced in...maybe then they'll be happy. No temptations...no women.

[LeftyMom]

71. No, it's that a strange woman might be unclean because she's on/near her period.

You never know, so she needs to keep away from menfolk at all times so she doesn't contaminate any with evil woman cooties.

[polmaven]

43. I'm not so sure

that running on public roads is the catalyst for making this sort of thing illegal. To me it is the part that says the general public is allowed on board, but the women still have to go to the back. If it is paid for by the bigots, and is limited to just the people who agree with the behavior, well, while it is despicable, I don't think it is illegal to drive it on public roads.

I'm not really sure, though...you may be right.

[MH1]

55. if a business can't discriminate about who sits at its lunch counter based on color,

how can a business discriminate about who gets to sit in the front of a bus based on gender?

If the bus was running on some huge private property then there would be no reason for the government to know or get involved. But as soon as it crosses into public space, it seems the same rules on discrimination would have to apply. At least, if it opens it doors to 'the public'.

Are the buses also subject to ADA regulations, I wonder?

[MedicalAdmin]

65. They are walking a fine line, but I'm not sure they have crossed it.

They don't disallow access exactly.... but on the other hand this smells like separate but equal.

Any legal beagles have an opinion, more, er, factual than mine?

[Doremus]

77. Rosa Parks might disagree.

Her refusal to move to the back of the bus was the spark that fueled the civil rights movement.

I would say the two scenarios are quite similar, no?

[MedicalAdmin]

96. Good point.

Sister Rosa by the Neville Brothers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCsZc37esU

[polmaven]

70. You have a point.

And, as I said...since they open the ridership to the public, there is, I think, certainly some illegality there. I just don't think it is because they are on public roads.

[StopTheNeoCons]

3. Beyond disgusting, extreme religion needs to be wiped out...nt

[LanternWaste]

39. I imagine extreme anything should also be wiped out...?

I imagine extreme anything should also be wiped out...?

[polmaven]

46. Well, as disgusting as it is,

there is still that little thing called the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.

[MedicalAdmin]

67. Hmmmmm.

This is an extreme position. I'm not saying you are incorrect, but it is extreme.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. At least it wasn't based on Sharia law.

If it was, Fox News would be calling for congressional investigations and riots.

[madrchsod]

14. not much difference between the two....

all three religions have their base in the first books of the old testament

[Gormy Cuss]

5. Looks like a straight violation of public accommodation laws.

The fact that it looks like an MTA bus, shares signage and stops with MTA buses, and is open to the public makes a pretty strong case that it's a public accommodation and not able to discriminate like this. Apparently someone in the community thought that buying the route and operating it as a franchise would make them exempt.

The article says that the authorities needed a complaint by a passenger in order to act and the "New York World" provided one. :thumbsup:

[hlthe2b]

6. F>>K that...

Taxpayers paid for the roads, the street signs, the lights, and everything else required to run and maintain that line. This can not stand.

Yet, they think THEY have the moral high ground compared to their Muslim counterparts? Give me a break. :eyes:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. That they run on public streets doesn't matter...

public accommodation might.

The best way to address this is for more secular women to get on the bus. In numbers they can not be bullied.

[MedicalAdmin]

68. Private bus. Private rules.

They might be legal. I'm not sure.

[hlthe2b]

74. No... You didn't read the article.

They would have had to receive a waiver and did not. They are subject to the same legal restrictions against discrimination that all other public services would be.

[MedicalAdmin]

75. Gotcha - thanks.

Yah - I missed that. :toast:

[Poll_Blind]

7. They also put up signs in Brooklyn telling women to step aside for men on the sidewalk:

Covered in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2097867&mesg_id=2097867">this DU post just a few days ago.

PB

[reggie the dog]

9. yeah,well i can't read that shit and dont give a damn

if i come to nyc on vacation next summer with my daugheter and girfriend we will sit in any empty seat and refuse to move to the back, i will even kiss my girlfriend and run my hands over her body in front of the men just to piss them off, as for the sidewalk the fuckers can step aside for my 3 year old girl and my girlfriend, if they are so scared of bumping into women then perhaps they should leave the usa and go to a country like Iran or Israel in which first and second class citizens exist.

[closeupready]

10. Don't come to NYC, please.

nt

[Occulus]

13. I agree with Reggie: these "laws" deserve no public respect

This bus line is a public accommodation and as such the rabbis and the Orthodox Jews have no right to enforce their "laws" upon those who are not Jewish. If they want to continue to do this they can move elsewhere, outside the US.

I fully support any "slutwalk" in their neighborhood, and I fully support any feminist organization that chooses to "disobey" these "laws", as publicly and with as much fanfare as possible. These people deserve to be royally smacked down for their hubris, and I hope it happens ASAP.

Religious law has no place in America. The orthodox Jews in question can go fuck themselves.

[Chorophyll]

53. These "laws" are not enforced. The sign isn't even in English.

I've walked through these neighborhoods and no one has even glanced at me.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

24. I think DU should take up a collection for her plane ticket.

[closeupready]

58. If he/she wants to fornicate publicly, why doesn't she do it where she lives?

I mean, assuming there are laws against it there. ???

[Hassin Bin Sober]

59. Fornicate - I don't think that word means what you think it does.

[closeupready]

60. Yes, it does. Sexual copulation with a partner to whom one is not married.

So pedantry aside, what do you think about the larger concept about which I'm asking?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

62. Copulation - I don't think that word means what you think it does.

[closeupready]

78. Okay, children. Have fun playing with yourselves.

:hi:

[Hassin Bin Sober]

83. At least children have a better grasp of the English language.....

And don't use homophobic terms such as "fornicator" to refer to a lesbian woman and her partner.

But then again, homophobia is a learned response not readily present in children unless taught by "adults" :hi:


You brought back old memories. I had to google Mad Max UofI.....and viola! A video of Mad Max the preacher who used to call everybody FORNICATORS!!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-582283118644390611#

[reggie the dog]

89. plus they are homophobic against a man kissing a woman

reggie the dog, me, is a man, not that i would mind seeing 2 men or 2 women kissing in the street, i am just saying that in my case i kiss women. well one woman, my girlfriend.

[reggie the dog]

88. i can kiss my girlfriend in public and run my hands over her

partially clothed body legally here in France, back where i am from in Chicago or in New York. Would seeing a man kiss his girlfriend really bother you that much???

[Chorophyll]

52. +1. nt

[fasttense]

18. Well said reggie.

But I don't think the kiss between girlfriends will bother them. My sister became one of those conservative Jews (she can't sleep in the same bed with her husband (she has a little cot along the wall) when it's that time of the month.) I visited her for one of her children's graduation from a Jewish high school. They kept a flimsy divider between the men and women as they partied and danced. The teenage girls were sitting in each other's laps, hugging and kissing each other. I put it down to sexual frustration because the teenager girls were not allowed to be with the boys. The boys were not so physical between each other and very sedate, most of them didn't take their eyes off the girls.

[reggie the dog]

90. well, seeing as i am a man and would be kissing a woman....

just sayin.

[fasttense]

91. Oh, my bad.

That would bother them.

[PlanetBev]

31. I'd love to spray paint "fuck you" on that sign

and I'm Jewish. There is no limit to my hatred for religious insanity.

[leftynyc]

48. Same here

Those signs were removed by city workers and I haven't heard anything about them being put back up.

[crim son]

11. Owned by a private company?

Which probably pays taxes to the city? As abhorrent as it is to my liberal mind, why shouldn't these people be allowed to abide by their religious beliefs? Honest question, because I don't know anything about any law that might be an issue.

[Occulus]

16. They can if they want to

What they cannot do is enforce their "laws" upon those outside their community.

As stated in the article, the bus line has no special exemption and provides a public accommodation. As such, it is subject to nondiscrimination laws, the opinions of the orthodox Jewish elders notwithstanding.

In other words, no, they do not "have the right" to do this. At all.

I hope someone sues the living piss out of the line for this at some point in the future. We have to start making the point to these Jewish communities (in NYC and elsewhere) that their "laws" only apply to them (and that, by their own choice), not to the rest of us, no matter what.

[fasttense]

21. Just because they claim abusing women as part of their religious habits does not make it legal.

I say smoking pot in public is part of my religion. If I pay for a bus to carry me and my friends back and forth, can we legally smoke pot on the bus? No, we will get arrested.

There are some religions who believe regular, bloody beatings of young children are a part of their religious habits. So, should they be allowed to regularly beat their children bloody?

How come it's only when a religion abuses women that society is fine with it?

[Arugula Latte]

32. Exactly, fasttense.

I will go so far as to say a major goal, and perhaps the major goal, of most religions is to control and oppress women. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors to divert people from that conclusion, but that is the truth.

[riderinthestorm]

64. +10000. I agree completely.

I feel like I have this argument all the time on DU but there are a lot of people even here who don't get it. Cultural relativism masking the subjugation of women, I hate it.

This shit needs to be legally enforced or the religious nuts just simply continue their abuses.

[Gormy Cuss]

44. Public accommodations law.

It's considered a franchise bus within the public transit system and it welcomes all passengers (the public.) As a public accommodation it must comply with anti-discrimination statutes unless it has proven a basis for doing otherwise and it has been granted an exception to do so.

[surrealAmerican]

80. ... but surely, if they are called on this ...

... they'll just find a way around it, perhaps by issuing bus passes only to their own members or something. Is the public better served by denying all access on the basis of religious beliefs?

I guess I don't understand just what it means to be a "franchise" in this context.

[Gormy Cuss]

85. They probably will find a way around it but they'll need to divorce all pretext that it's public.

If they want to sponsor a thoroughly private bus system that wouldn't be a public accommodation issue.
It doesn't appear as if the public is served well by this route so I don't see what the loss would be.

The article gives some explanation of the peculiar context of this route.

[byronius]

12. I consider this behavior prima facie evidence that the religion is false and corrupt.

Anti-woman means confused primate. Anti-woman means 'Bullshit'. They are embarassing themselves with this primitive nonsense. How foolish, like little mean children.

Mirror image of Wahabis. It's all the same crap. This all needs to get Left Behind.

[Hepburn]

15. Unreal...n/t

[Poll_Blind]

17. Two Brooklyn Hasidic Newspapers photoshopped Hillary Clinton out of iconic White House photo:

You really have to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/09/hillary-clinton-der-tzitung-removed-situation-room_n_859254.html">see it to believe it.

The Orthodox Jewish newpspaper released a statement to clear up the mess: See, they just don't print pictures of women, period.

Oh! Well, when you put it like that...

:crazy:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/05/another-hasidic-publication-photoshops-hillary-clinton-out-of-iconic-photo-234.html">And another one did it as well

PB

[AngryAmish]

19. Do they let anyone at the bus stop on the bus?

If so, they are a common carrier. Also, public accomodation. Can't do this, no.

[tblue]

20. What happens if they don't move?

Will they get arrested? No. The women aren't the ones breaking the law.

Time to pull a Rosa Parks. You don't treat ANYONE like that. If these chauvinists don't want to share space on a bus with women, they should freaking walk! Shame on them!!!

[leftynyc]

23. I would not have moved

Let them try and throw me off.

[Gin]

30. stupid men with side curls...the jewish taliban....

if the women continue to take this shit...they (men with curls)will continue to do it.

[leftynyc]

37. Not the taliban

who mutilate their girls and don't let them out of their homes without a male relative. They're bad but let's not get carried away.

[Lars39]

34. And if they succeed, pack the bus with women the next day.

[leftynyc]

38. I LOVE that idea

Let them find another way to get where they're going if they don't want to be around women.

[ohheckyeah]

87. Me either.

I would have told them they could pick me up and move me if they wanted but they should know I was having my period. LOL What would they do then? Can't touch a woman who is "unclean".

[Goblinmonger]

25. Why don't the men move to the back? n/t

[mindfulNJ]

26. hmmm

Where in the Bible does it say that woman should ride in the back of the bus?

[Arugula Latte]

29. And why are people stupid enough to heed that book, anyway?

[mindfulNJ]

36. indeed

Really don't think there is a chapter and verse dealing with 20th century modes of transportation even if you are a "believer". ;)

[riderinthestorm]

66. The women have been conditioned to accept that subjugation. Akin to brainwashed from childhood.

Often times the women become even more strict enforcers than the men. Pretty sick.

[Arugula Latte]

73. Yeah. It happens in Islam (e.g. burka wearing) and Christianity too.

[hifiguy]

27. Pee-yeeeeew!

That is absolutely disgusting. And, according to the article, it is a clear violation of anti-discrimination laws that this "private service" remains subject to.

[Arugula Latte]

28. Organized Religion...The idiocy continues.

:grr:

[LanternWaste]

49. Organized anything is idiotic...

Organized politics, economics and philosophy is idiotic also...

[Arugula Latte]

50. Not necessarily.

Religion is in a class by itself for idiocy.

[chrisa]

94. Indeed

[annabanana]

33. Hmmm . .If the ACLU wants a bus riding, sore-footed female volunteer. .

I'm sure there might be a few available.

Fundamentalism; A Danger at Home, A Danger Abroad.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. Oh, Brother!

Methinks these people take their religious obsersations a little too seriously.
GAC

[Ian David]

41. They should just divide it between left and right with a curtain down the middle.

Or be men in front on even days, and women in front on odd numbered days.

It would still be stupid, but at least then it would be FAIR and stupid.

[TlalocW]

42. If I were a woman on that bus and told to move

I would stand up and systematically touch every male on the bus while yelling, "COOTIES!"

And when I was dragged off, I would scream the obligatory, "Where is your God now??? Muahahahaha!"

TlalocW

[annabanana]

45. Make sure you have a friend with a camera. . . . .n/t

[polly7]

47. Yep.

I think the 'Slut Walk' ladies need to take up this cause.

[Poll_Blind]

51. A Jewish woman was savagely beaten in Israel simply for refusing to move to the back.

Her name was Miriam Shear and the attack happened in 2006. Extremists may come in all stripes and colors but they all subscribe to the same methods to enforce their extremism on others.

PB

[supernova]

54. They will have to let women

share the ride equally. The only way they are going to avoid female cooties is if they turn the service into a private members-only transport.

Don't they realize they are re-ghetto-izing themselves with all the religious strictures? Are they not equipped for life in the modern era?

[mntleo2]

56. Why doesn't this community just pay for their OWN bus?

...and not contract with a public agency who has to observe not only their rules, but others as well? It is not right that only one segment of citizens are considered, while others are not. Even in "contract world" when it is the government who is doing the contracting.

Just wondering ....

Cat in Seattle

[Poll_Blind]

61. Because this way they can still soak regular people for money, too!

The whole article is very much worth reading in this case. A private religious organization with discriminatory rules wants their own bus transport system. But they can't afford their own bus transport system. So they pay the city about $20,000 to be allowed to run their bus on the city line, charging customers cash- customers are not able to use their FareCard- and making a profit while subjecting those customers to their discriminatory religious rules.

Again, check out the whole article. It's quite a scam if you can get approval from the city, which they did.

PB

[LynneSin]

57. Here's my thoughts....

Later in the article:

The arrangement that the B110 operates under can only be described as unorthodox. It operates as a franchise, in which a private company, Private Transportation Corporation, pays the city for the right to provide a public service. Passengers pay their $2.50 fare not by MetroCard, but in dollar bills and coins. The city’s Franchise and Concession Review Committee defines a franchise on its website as “the right to occupy or to use the City’s inalienable property, such as streets or parks, for a public service, e.g., transportation.”

So clearly it is not part of MTA system.

Also in the article:

The agreement goes back to at least 1973, and last year the franchise paid the city $22,814 to operate the route, according to the New York City Department of Transportation. According to the news site Vos Iz Neias?, which serves the Orthodox Jewish community in New York City and elsewhere, the bus company has a board of consulting rabbis, which decreed that male passengers should ride in the front of the bus and female passengers in the back.

HOWEVER according to the article:

The Transportation Department said that the B110 had not been granted any exceptions to anti-discrimination laws.

So my 2 cents is this

Either the bus service should make itself totally private so it can accommodate the needs of the Orthodox Jews or it needs to remove the segregation. As a private organization the government has no rights to interfere with religious laws provided that they are not used to harm others. But since they opted to open the bus to patrons not of the Orthodox Jew Faith. (aka the public) then the Orthodox Jews have no right to discriminate with the public.

Either they remove the rule or they close the service to Orthodox Jews only. From the photo in the picture it seems there are other bus lines on the route.

[TNLib]

82. Someone needs to sue the pants off of that bus company

IMHO.

[musette_sf]

63. regardless of the Byzantine arrangement with the MTA,

If the bus is scheduled by the MTA, and has an assigned route number from the MTA, then it's a public bus.

The Hasids used to (not sure if they still do, I left NYC in 1980) have PRIVATE school buses running from the diamond district, with a sheet down the middle. Men in the front, women in the back.

The MTA needs to put the smack down on these out of control Hasids. Either the bus runs under the auspices of the MTA, or they can go hire their own private buses.

Isn't the new Lady McCartney still on the MTA board? Perhaps this issue should be her last hurrah before resigning.

[brooklynite]

69. It has NOTHING to do with the MTA...

The MTA is a public agency that operates bus routes under State authority. They are not responsible for private routes, nor (surprisingly) are they responsible for bus stop signs. The private bus company has an operating franchise with the NYC Department of Transportation.

nb - if someone wanted to stir the pot, the Mayor usually takes phone calls Friday morning on AM 710 radio.

[mwooldri]

95. Thanks for pointing this out. Complaints need to go to NYC DOT then.

If any UK bus company were to do this then there would be at least a local hullaballoo about it and the bus company in question would have had a few heads rolling.

[Dorian Gray]

72. Wow

I've never heard of that line. I think that if I were on that bus, I would have put my ear phones on and ignored everyone. (Like I normally do on the bus.) Bizarre that this can go on in the city.

[Liberal_in_LA]

79. horrible

[Zanzoobar]

81. Strip the franchise.

Make them fully private with no public accomodation.

[JCMach1]

84. Hell no

Not in america

[lumberjack_jeff]

86. Fundamentalism smells like ass. n/t

[Maraya1969]

92. I really don't see me going to the back of the buss. "Blow it out

you ass" as I sit defiantly in the front seems more appropriate for me.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<doesn't get along well with others

[chrisa]

93. “If God makes a rule, you don’t ask ‘Why make the rule?’”

A.K.A The small mind's defense when asked to question something.

I think these people should be forced to abandon these ridiculous, sexist values. They certainly shouldn't be able to force them on others.

[Scurrilous]

97. New York authorities threaten to shut down segregated bus run by Orthodox Jews

The Private Transportation Corp has come under criticism following publicity about its practice of making women give up their seats in the front to promote ultra-Orthodox customs of gender separation.

<snip>

"New York City authorities said they will shut down a city bus service run by Orthodox Jews if the group doesn't stop making women sit at the back of the bus.

The Private Transportation Corp, which operates the city's public B110 bus under a franchise arrangement, has come under criticism following publicity about its practice of making women give up their seats in the front to promote ultra-Orthodox customs of gender separation.

New York City's Department of Transportation spokesman Scott Gastel said the agency's executive director Anne Koenig has asked the company to respond to the allegations and was waiting to hear back.

"Please be advised that a practice of requiring women to ride in the back ... would constitute a direct violation of your franchise agreement and may lead to termination of that agreement," Koenig wrote.

If such a violation is found, the franchise could be revoked, the DOT said in a statement."

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/new-york-authorities-threaten-to-shut-down-segregated-bus-run-by-orthodox-jews-1.391390

[Pedalpower]

98. Don't criticize Jews! ...

Maybe you folks haven't gotten the memo: it's cool to be critical of other oppressive religions, but Judaism is off-limits.

Thanks to the lack of rational limits on political giving, we must not criticize those with the greatest 'voice'. They will kick our asses if we don't behave.

Among all the benefits of election reform, minimization of the religious fanatics may be one of the greatest.

Let's separate ALL Religion from State.

[seabeyond]

99. thurs i had lunch with a family that has migrated to this religion/attitude.

that father had never practiced. i think his father MIGHT be jew, or part jew. and the wife has no jew in her. yet they decided on this relion. over the years i have seen them move more and more in this direction.

i had not seen them in at least a year and when i saw all of them, there dress, i plopped in the chair. could hardly talk. floored me in the extreme they had gone, in the costume. and they BEHAVED in this manner. all lunch i smile but by the end my eyes had narrowed and wasnt smilin so much.

wow, wow

brushed past the man though... lol, at the beginning when walking to the table. he wanted to lead. i was taught, ... ladies first.