"Second Hand Dealer Law": Louisiana bans cash........

[WinkyDink]

Cold hard cash. It's good everywhere you go, right? You can use it to pay for anything.

But that's not the case here in Louisiana now. It's a law that was passed during this year's busy legislative session.

House bill 195 basically says those who buy and sell second hand goods cannot use cash to make those transactions, and it flew so far under the radar most businesses don't even know about it.

"We're gonna lose a lot of business," says Danny Guidry, who owns the Pioneer Trading Post in Lafayette. He deals in buying and selling unique second hand items.

"We don't want this cash transaction to be taken away from us. It's an everyday transaction," Guidry explains.

Guidry says, "I think everyone in this business once they find out about it. They're will definitely be a lot of uproar."

The law states those who buy or sell second hand goods are prohibited from using cash. State representative Rickey Hardy co-authored the bill.

Hardy says, "they give a check or a cashiers money order, or electronic one of those three mechanisms is used."

http://www.klfy.com/story/15717759/second-hand-dealer-law
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The available choices also COST the buyer money. Let's hurt the poor even further, shall we?

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Wouldn't that basically shut down all garage/yard sales?

[bvar22]

52. Yes. I think that is the point.

Also Thrift Stores and Salvage Yards.

There is a BIG and GROWING Underground Market in the USA.

My Wife & I went On Strike in 2006.
We stopped Buying "NEW".
Instead, we haunt Garage Sales, Thrift Stores, Rural Auctions, Salvage Yards, and re-sales from neighbors & friends.
The money we spend STAYS LOCAL,
and BIG MONEY hates that.
They don't get their cut.


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Proud Public Servant]

2. How the hell can that be constitutional?

The technical name for "cash" is a "Federal Reserve Note." This is a federal matter, period. Can't imagine this will survive a court challenge.

[Supply Side Jesus]

3. WTF is the point of this law?

seriously.....how does this benefit the public?

this has to be unconstitutional, it's gotta violate commerce clause or full faith and credit or something

[msanthrope]

4. Sales tax. nt

[Supply Side Jesus]

20. good point...

hope it doesn't stand

[mahatmakanejeeves]

6. I'll bet it has something to do with

the sale of stolen copper and other scrap metals. Presumably, the thieves will be deterred from stealing the copper if there is a paper trail involving the transaction of unloading the stolen goods.

If this is the case, then this law is an example of "the road to hell being paved with good intentions."

[TheWraith]

22. And items stolen in burglaries or during muggings... general fencing of pilfered goods.

Of course it's monumentally stupid for two reasons. One, it's already illegal to buy or sell stolen goods, so violating another law to pay cash isn't going to deter anyone; kind of the way people intent on murder aren't stopped by the threat of firearms charges.

Two, it might get the shop in trouble if they're audited and they don't have full receipts for everything they've bought--but that assumes that it would be LEGAL to audit said shop for that reason, and I have no doubt there would be ways around it anyway, like asserting that they bought those goods out of state. At the very most, it might prevent a shop from unknowingly buying stolen goods if the person tries to insist on cash, but that's probably so small a slice of transactions that attempting to target it with this kind of blanket law is so stupid one wonders if the LA state legislature was drunk to the last man when they passed it.

[formercia]

8. Money laundering/Tax Revenue

The authorities are hard-up for Tax receipts. This gives them a paper Trail.

[Liberal_in_LA]

15. +1

[Matariki]

26. The excuse is stolen goods. n/t

I can't imagine how a law like this will hold up in court.

[Downwinder]

5. What happened to:

"good for all debts, public and private."

[NYC Liberal]

31. There's no debt because the sale is refused before it ever happens.

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. Except that's not what it's saying - it is saying payment can ONLY

be by check or money order. It is not negating the sale, it is limiting the terms of the sale to omit federal tender. That is unconstitutional.

[NYC Liberal]

45. No, it's perfectly legal.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

[eridani]

51. You are confusing "not required to accept cash" with

"not being ALLOWED to accept cash" Two different matters.

[NYC Liberal]

54. And there is nothing unconstitutional about that.

I totally disagree with the law, but it's perfectly constitutional.

[immoderate]

7. AFAIK, cash is "legal tender for all debts, public and private."

How can they declare money illegal? :shrug:


--imm

[NYC Liberal]

30. Key word: debts. If they haven't sold you something, there's no debt.

That said, this law is still stupid.

[quaker bill]

43. When I hand you something for sale, you owe me money.

Instant debt.

[NYC Liberal]

44. There is no debt.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

[girl gone mad]

48. The quoted text does not back up your assertion.

Your excerpt states that the government cannot force private businesses and individuals to accept currency or coins.

It does not say that the government can prevent private businesses and individuals from accepting currency or coins.

[quaker bill]

49. When I am at an art show

and I hand you the piece of jewelry you want, at that very instant, you owe me money. I take cash or credit.

[NYC Liberal]

50. Nope. You can still refuse the sale.

And there is nothing illegal or unconstitutional about refusing cash to begin with, before a transaction has even started.

[denverbill]

9. How can that be constitutional? Every dollar says it must be accepted for all debts.

It's illegal not to allow someone to pay with American currency.

[Bandit]

10. I would bet that would be found unconstitutional..

Cash says right on it Legal Tender.......It is recognized by the US
federal government as Legal Tender and can not be refused...

[ehrnst]

11. Antiques Dealers in the French Quarter will have something to say about this. (nt)

[Recovered Repug]

12. There is no law that says cash must be accepted as payment.

From the Treasury website:

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.

The last phrase "unless there is a State law which says otherwise" may be the key in this case.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. But that puts it on the business to accept or reject, not the state to

mandate. It says, the business may REFUSE cash, unless there is a state law saying they must accept it.

It says nothing about the state making cash transactions illegal.

[Recovered Repug]

16. The last sentence:

Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.


This seems to suggest a couple of possible scenarios:

1. A business sets it's policy as "No cash transactions (or limits the size of the bill accepted)", however a state law requires that ALL cash payments must be allowed (a state law says otherwise).

2. A business sets it's policy as "Accepting all cash transactions", however a state law prevents cash transactions (a state law which says otherwise).

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. Wrong. Federal law trumps state law. Federal law says that US money

is legitimate for all transactions. The state cannot overrule that. The individual business may abrogate it by the simple expedient of refusing to sell if the person only offers cash. He cannot be forced to sell to anyone - "We have the right to deny service". There is federal law which states that service cannot be denied on the basis of race, color, creed, etc., but says nothing about cash payments. The business can refuse service if you're barefoot; it can refuse service if you pay cash. Just like the guy down the street can refuse to take checks, and will not sell to you unless you put up cash. The State has no authority to make him accept checks. Same thing.

[Recovered Repug]

32. There is no Federal law stating that cash MUST BE ACCEPTED.

A business can establish it's own policy on accepting cash with the following restriction: Unless there is a State law which says otherwise.

This suggests that a state can either mandate acceptance of cash as payment OR restrict cash as payment. Where is the failure of that logic?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recovered Repug]

40. Fine. State the section of the Constitution that specifies

that CASH MUST BE ACCEPTED. Why on the United States Treasury website does it state that THERE IS NO LAW REQUIRING THAT CASH BE ACCEPTED? Why on the United States Treasury website does it state that a business can set it's own policy on accepting cash UNLESS IT VIOLATES STATE LAW?

While cash is legal tender that can be used for all public and private debts, there is no debt if there is no sale. States do have the authority to place restriction on what is sold.

[MadHound]

36. Actually there is,

I'm not sure of the exact citation, it's been thirty plus years since I looked it up. But as a kid I did indeed look up the citation for my own purposes, and there is a law specifically stating that businesses must accept US currency.

I'm sure there are possible modifiers to this law, but the fact remains that cash must be accepted.

[dtexdem]

18. No, this is a statement on the rights of businesses to refuse cash.

It is NOT a statement on the ability of states to deny to businesses the ability to accept cash.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. I doubt a law saying that cash can't be accepted is what they had in mind. n/t

[dtexdem]

14. It may be unconstitutional even if it does not invovle interstate commerce --

Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives the U.S. Congress the power: "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures".

Article I, Section 10 states: "No State shall … emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts …"

Of course, the feds long ago made other than gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; but that was done by the feds, whereas Section 10 is a limit on the power of states.

[Liberal_in_LA]

17. It bet this law becomes like prohibition & 55mph law - widely violated and ignored

[dtexdem]

19. Sure, but potentially working all kinds of mischief in the meantime, ...

a la Prohibition.

[alfredo]

21. Thank goodness pot is never sold as used.

[LeftinOH]

23. 9 Republicans and 6 Democtrats sponsored this:

http://www.mygov365.com/legislation/view/id/4db66f7549e51bd334be0300/tab/sponsors/

[MineralMan]

24. Typical. Legislatures are forever passing laws without considering

all of the ramifications of that law. This one was probably targeted at a specific problem, but affects a wide range of situations, rather than just the one it was aimed at. Typically, these laws get quickly revised, once the problem they create becomes clear. But, the likelihood is that very few of the legislators even read this provision of some law that covered other things as well. Morons.

[MagickMuffin]

25. "Get the Government out of our business" Yeah, Right

These are the same folks who make such a big deal about government being to big and exceeding its limits on the public. Well this should prove once and for all their words are all talk and full of hot air.

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. So the person who has been out of work for 2 year, reduced to selling

off his furniture and household goods and VHS collection at a garage sale has to accept potentially fraudulent checks for what little he has left, instead of cash.

Great idea.

[pintobean]

29. When cash is outlawed, only outlaws will have cash.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

r

[sufrommich]

33. How could this not be unconstitutional? Holy cow. nt

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

34. The double negative proviso?

:shrug:

[MadHound]

37. Somebody will bring a lawsuit,

The law will be overturned, and somebody will make a pile of cash off said lawsuit. It will simply be a matter of time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. Consent of the governed.

Fuck it.

Laws must be respectable to be respected.

[MNBrewer]

42. Naturally I assumed that something this idiotic would have been proposed by an "R"

but no!!!

<http://house.louisiana.gov/H_Reps/members.asp?ID=44>

he's a Democrat. Supposedly he's concerned about fencing stolen goods...

*sigh*

[Odin2005]

46. The PTB don't want us using cash, that way the giant corporations control everything.

[Cobalt-60]

47. take cash and call it barter

We'll trade you this used car in exchange for 5000 of those beautiful portraits of former presidents.
Those we don't have room for display are coincidentally accepted as cash elsewhere.

[JCMach1]

53. Sell a penny piece of candy for the price, then give the merchandise for free...

Stupid law requires stupid counter-measures...