Male Privilege

[redqueen]

As most of us have probably noticed, it is sometimes difficult for people to understand the concept of privilege.

Recent threads about rape and harmful images of women (as well as many, many other threads over the years) have highlighted that yes, even liberals seem to have trouble with this concept, at least in certain contexts (e.g. male privilege, heteronormative privilege, etc.)

I just wanted to post a link to this blog, in the hopes that possibly some light might be shed on the concept of male privilege.

https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37

I hope it's helpful. It certainly helped me to understand why it sometimes seems so difficult to communicate certain ideas.

[Warpy]

1. Good luck. The main problem with having it is that you don't realize it's there

unless something happens to you to take it away.

[redqueen]

4. I don't know if that's true.

I realize I am privileged in various ways. However, that might be at least partly due to having a disadvantaged background. Interesting.

[msongs]

2. don't forget links to blogs discussing female privilege as well :-) nt

[redqueen]

3. Is this a Lounge type jokey response?

Or are there actually a lot of women who seem not to be able to understand the concept of female privilege, and therefore fail to understand male viewpoints in various threads?

[Taverner]

108. "Female Privlege." Is that like "Black Privlege" or "Immigrant Privlege"?

[leftstreet]

5. K&R

That was pretty interesting. Some of those entitlements lists and such just create controversy and piss people off.

Thanks for posting

[redqueen]

8. Thanks for reading it.

:hi:

[yella_dawg]

6. Oddly, I don't feel so privileged as all that.

In fact, I'm not at all sure that this male privilege thing is all it's cracked up to be.

[redqueen]

7. Is there a particular part of the analogy that you take issue with?

Privilege doesn't mean you get everything handed to you on a platter. It doesn't mean that your life is easy. It just means you are in a situation which affords you some kind of advantage over others.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. The elements of male privilege compared to female privilege don't yield aggregate advantage.

I don't get catcalled and I can stand while I pee. You get a college degree, and don't die young from an unsafe workplace.

[StarsInHerHair]

43. but paid less for equal education & some jobs

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. According to AAUW, the pay gap might be as much as 7%

Any comparison needs to use similar jobs, similar hours and similar experience.

[StarsInHerHair]

152. that's what I said

[iris27]

53. YES they do.

You have deliberately chosen two of the more trivial examples of male "privilege" (don't know how a feature of biology can really be called such), and compared them with...what???

I don't even understand how the college degree thing is supposed to be an example of supposed female privilege. Men and women graduate college in roughly equal numbers, and men are present in much higher numbers in all the majors that lead to high-paying jobs.

As for unsafe workplaces, try telling that to all the women who died in the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. Or look up the average lifespan of a stripper or prostitute. There are certain occupations that are dangerous that generally employ more men than women - this is not a female "privilege" but an artifact of continued sexism in our society that needs to be challenged. The idea that women are not capable of handling these jobs is patronizing and harmful to women. It is not a privilege. It also demeans the contributions of the few women in these fields. Just look at our supposed ban on women in combat. Instead of honoring those women who have fought and died in combat operations, we minimize their service, or worse, use them as examples for continuing the ban.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. women dominate college by a 3:2 ratio.

93% of workplace fatalities are men.

Entitlement to your own facts isn't a legit privilege.

[redqueen]

62. Pff... the most dangerous job is that of a prostitute.

Too bad they aren't so disciplined at reporting their workplace statistics.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. Nor are car theives, burglars, drug dealers or gangsters.

Workplace statistics are constrained to legal occupations for some good reasons, but I doubt that including them would change the basic 12:1 ratio very much.

[redqueen]

86. deleted

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. two other things.

If we're including illegal professions, then we must include drug dealer and gangster.

The fact that you're not expected to be a logger IS a privilege. In fact, much if not most of the machismo that a woman who tries to break into dangerous fields experiences has this basic issue at the center: Why are you here? This is dangerous stuff, and you shouldn't be allowed to risk your life doing it if you haven't really understood the ramifications.
Re-read the op and the blog post to which it links.

The dog kind of looks at her, and shrugs, and keeps turning the dial.

This is not because the dog is a jerk.

This is because the dog has no fucking clue what the lizard even just said.

You don't understand the concept of growing up in a fishing community and being raised to perform this dangerous and awful job, and hoping you don't end up like uncle Bill who died in the Bering sea, but knowing deep inside that this fate is really out of your control. When the kid grows up to be a parent himself, he is simultaneously proud and scared that his own son wants to follow in his footsteps. His daughter? College of course, where the sisterhood will support and encourage her. The idea that her life is worth risking in the way his son's is does not compute.

To you, the lack of female commercial fisher(women) is an abstraction - it's just a column on the spreadsheet on which women are underrepresented.

Want more women on the front line, on skyscrapers, in the woods and on the ocean? Fine with me. It is the central concept of the patriarchy. You're arguing for your right to be maimed, killed and have your lives shortened to throw off one of your most useful privileges - the privilege that results in your lives being 7% longer.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[redqueen]

89. ""boo hoo look at us, so oppressed"

"Oh yes mistress, you're totally right mistress, how could I ever want to be a male mistress, would you like me to cut off my own dick mistress?"


I can see that you have absolutely no intention of attempting to have a reasonable discussion.


Love this, though:
Not saying there aren't some exceptional women out there, just not enough to justify it.

Thanks. That makes things quite clear.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

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[redqueen]

112. I'm downright hateful?

I don't know whose posts you're reading, but you have me mixed up with someone else.

I didn't start any fight. I put up a link which sought to explain male privilege. It's hardly confrontational.

As for me not liking the outcome? What on earth is that even supposed to mean?

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

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[DirkGently]

9. I think it's a hard concept to discuss out of context. I only speak for myself, but never found the

concept of, for example, catcalls being threatening and demeaning, rather than "fun" for women challenging. I think it's analogous to some white people not understanding why they can't take racial slurs out and play with them the way the people they refer to sometimes do. Who might rape whom? Whose use of a term invokes a history of real, physical degradation?

I don't think I saw the threads about rape and harmful images you were speaking about, so I can't comment there. I have seen even valid concepts like the one you're talking about stretched to a point where reasonable minds might differ.

[redqueen]

12. Yes, the example of catcalls is an easy one.

Other ideas aren't so easy to communicate. It isn't the simplest thing to discuss out of context, but I thought it was worth a try.

I'm not sure which valid but stretched concepts you're referring to so I'll leave it there for tonight. :hi:

[DirkGently]

22. Okay, I'll bite. I think the essay you link to attempts to substitute the concept for argument.

I'm sure I'll regret this, but in the interest of the discussion you asked for downthread, here goes :)

If you’re straight and a queer person says “do not title your book ‘Beautiful Cocksucker,’ that’s stupid and offensive,” listen and believe him. If you’re white and a black person says “really, now, we’re all getting a little tired of that What These People Need Is A Honky trope, please write a better movie,” listen and believe her. If you’re male and a woman says “this maquette is a perfect example of why women don’t read comics,” listen and believe her. Maybe you don’t see anything wrong with it, maybe you think it’s oh-so-perfect to your artistic vision, maybe it seems like an oversensitive big deal over nothing to you. WELL OF COURSE IT DOES, YOU HAVE FUR. Nevertheless, just because you personally can’t feel that hurt, doesn’t mean it’s not real. All it means is you have privilege.

To me, the writer is arguing that the concept of of a privileged cultural position ends all discussion. That's wrong. It's not, actually, impossible, for someone in a privileged position to understand and discuss these issues. Someone in that position ought to be encouraged to think about it, and so long as they do, their opinion is valid exactly to the extent it actually is valid. Not to the extent they are or are not, in the listener's mind, privileged. One person's judgment is not perfect, and another's subject to dismissal on this basis.

Point being, the writer stretches a valid concept and tries to turn it into a club with the power to end discussion. That's anti-rational. You don't overcome a blind spot in someone's perspective by telling them to shut up because they're not culturally capable of understanding something. It is, for want of a better word, patronizing.

[WildEyedLiberal]

51. You've summed up very nicely my problems with the "privilege" meme

It's a fairly valid concept in and of itself, but the way it's used by many of its proponents is condescending and counterproductive, and the passage you highlighted from the OP's article is a great example of both. That author at least is trying to be lighthearted and not nasty, but I've seen way too many internet flamewars on feminist blogs where "privilege" is used as a bludgeon to berate any man who dares disagree to any extent with any ideas advanced by the bloggers. While the above example is kinder, it's still dismissive - "of course you don't understand why this is offensive, you have privilege." In other words: "you are automatically wrong and must change or alter your opinion because you have been told it is wrong by (insert minority here). And, because you have privilege, you are incapable of understanding why you are wrong and so, in order to not offend us, you must acquiesce to our demands immediately."

That kind of attitude literally makes discussion impossible. As I said, I think the IDEA of privilege as a social construct is entirely valid, and I do think the discussion of how privilege shapes our worldview is a discussion worth having. But it's a discussion that is quite literally impossible to have until those who love to talk about privilege can do so without using it as a talisman that prevents them from actually having to listen to and respond logically to the arguments of the allegedly "privileged."

[MedicalAdmin]

60. good point.

A conversation is a two way street. "...talk about privilege can do so without using it as a talisman that prevents them from actually having to listen to and respond logically to the arguments of the allegedly "privileged.""

However that is also a two sided coin and the other side of that excellent argument of yours is that the privileged need to be willing to listen and respond as well, and all too often they are not.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. The talisman has more than one purpose

It is a weapon to discredit the person you're arguing with as well as a shield to protect yourself from confronting your own privilege.

In this discussion there is no such thing as "the privileged". Neither men nor women are a clear majority, and both enjoy privileges. Arguably, men should be more aware of their privileges by virtue of being hit over the head daily by the talisman.

[redqueen]

66. No, this discussion is about male privilege.

Men are the dominant group, in every society. This has been true for the overwhelming majority of recorded history.

As for being "hit over the head daily", I am in fact reminded not just daily but many times each day that women are the other, and the sex class.

Please, share the things that are hitting you over the head daily. I would like to better empathize.

[MedicalAdmin]

105. To clarify my last post.

Yes a talisman can derail a conversation because this is often how it is used.

In this particular case it is most often used to derail any discussion such as the one you started. It is a two edged sword and in this case your points are the ones with the most validity.

[WildEyedLiberal]

72. I completely agree

If any kind of honest conversation about this is ever going to happen, BOTH sides need to discard the immediate tendency to go on the defense/offense and be willing to LISTEN - really, truly listen, without judgment - to the other's point of view.

[MedicalAdmin]

106. +1

And I think that it behooves men to be the first to really listen. It's the very least we can do.

[stevenleser]

109. Any discriminated against minority who throws the "You cannot possibly understand because you arent

one of us" thing out at people trying to have an honest discussion with them is just plain wrong for doing it.
I'm Jewish, Latino and African American. I've been discriminated against and subject to slurs for all three. It doesnt feel particularly different which one of those is being attacked. I can easily empathize with women, the LGBT community, Asians, and anyone else who is being discriminated against.

Nevertheless, I still get the "You are not one of us so you cannot understand" thing thrown at me from time to time.

The discrimination I see most in my daily life is when in a meeting, some men feel the right to talk over women and cut them off when they try to voice their opinion in meetings. Whenever I see this happening, I jump in at the next opportunity and say something like "I have a couple of ideas, but I really wanted to hear what Alexandra had to say" (where, of course, Alexandra was the person cut off) and then I give a look at the man who cut the woman off. Most men are not even aware they are doing this when they do it.

[MedicalAdmin]

138. That is awesome.

And it is appreciated.

"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" - MLK

[DirkGently]

121. I haven't seen it used enough to judge. A lot depends on people being (gulp) reasonable.

:D

[redqueen]

61. I see it differently

To me, the writer is arguing that the concept of of a privileged cultural position ends all discussion. That's wrong. It's not, actually, impossible, for someone in a privileged position to understand and discuss these issues. Someone in that position ought to be encouraged to think about it, and so long as they do, their opinion is valid exactly to the extent it actually is valid. Not to the extent they are or are not, in the listener's mind, privileged. One person's judgment is not perfect, and another's subject to dismissal on this basis.

I don't see that the writer is saying that after you listen, and after you believe them that it's offensive, that you have to adopt their feelings as your own. The way I read this, you just at least accept the fact that for them, it is offensive.

Whether you care that you have offended them, and what you do about it, are your choices. No one person can expect to coerce anyone to change their behavior as an individual, and different people find different things offensive. I think the main thing is like you said, to at least think about it.

Perhaps the person will continue to say things that others might find offensive. That's their right. As we all know there are different levels of offensiveness and some are considered more tolerable by society and some less so, or even intolerable. No one person gets to make those rules. We collectively decide where the line on social acceptability is.

You don't overcome a blind spot in someone's perspective by telling them to shut up because they're not culturally capable of understanding something. It is, for want of a better word, patronizing.

The problem is you think the blog writer is telling people to shut up. I don't know that they are and if they are I don't agree. The way I read it, they just want people to listen, and not shut down the conversation entirely using tactics like 'well we have it hard in some ways too', 'it's not my fault society is set up this way', or even worse... 'minorities actually have it easier than the dominant group'.

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding something, but it seems to me that the bolded text is exactly what many feminists (or members of any minority group) perceieve that others are doing. Ignoring their blind spot, and telling women to just tolerate being largely viewed and treated as objects (or servants or prey or whatever) using some rationalization or another (biology, tradition, convenience, evolutionary psychology). I do agree that that is very patronizing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. In the context of this discussion, "minorities" isn't relevant or useful.

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding something, but it seems to me that the bolded text is exactly what many feminists (or members of any minority group) perceieve that others are doing. Ignoring their blind spot, and telling women to just tolerate being largely viewed and treated as objects (or servants or prey or whatever) using some rationalization or another (biology, tradition, convenience, evolutionary psychology). I do agree that that is very patronizing.

To the degree that my motivations might not always be crystal clear to me, they are less apparent to an outside observer, no matter how keen she believes her insight to be.

The title of this highly recommended OP was "Male Privilege". If "tactics like 'well we have it hard in some ways too'" is an off-limits means of communicating about the two-way street nature of privilege, then you're advocating exactly the "shut up and listen to me vent" defense that the poster articulated.

[redqueen]

84. Yes, "minorities" is useful.

In the context of sociology, a 'minority' is not the group with fewer numbers. It is the non-dominant group.

And no, saying 'what about us' is not discussing privilege. It is an attempt to get away from discussing it. It is a means to avoid acknolwedging that the privilege in question even exists.

Consider it this way: What if, in a thread about the way boys are conditioned to bottle up their feelings, some woman posted, 'Well what about girls who are told they have to smile all the time? What about them?' Do you think that would be a meaningful point to make in a conversation about forcing boys to ignore or deaden their emotions?

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. So is it fair to observe that men are an oppressed minority in education?

Sociologically, it meets your criteria.

Everything is comparative and facts matter. In a thread about how women only make $466 a week as bakers, it's perfectly germane to the discussion to point out that men only make $448.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/03/14/jobs-where-women-earn-more-than-men/

[redqueen]

92. Oppressed? You could have that observation.

Observing that men are a minority in education would be reasonable discussion of course.

You keep pulling out random statistics. I don't know what your point is. Yes, there are some professsions in which men's earnings are outpaced by women's. These exceptions do little but prove the rule.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. I chose that example because it avoids the subjectivity of the example you used.

"Suppressing our emotions" vs "smiling all the time" is the kind of "tastes great"/"less filling" argument that can lead no other place than to the other side of the mulberry bush.

My response to your question was; "Yes, because everything is comparative, and facts matter".

[DirkGently]

119. Perhaps I'm extrapolating unfairly. "Check your privilege" struck me as condescending.

People need memes to get important ideas like this one out there. And, as you say, the failure to acknowledge cultural privilege shuts down discussion as well, and it's generally the status quo. But it (a meme like male privilege) does inevitably dumb things down compared to making the point in context, especially if you're thinking about going beyond catcalls and into more challenging areas like "harmful pictures." (And, no no no I have no opinion on the 'harmful pictures' -- I just suspect there's more to a topic like that than just differing power positions amongst the genders).

I guess my hope would have been we could all acknowledge things like our differing perspectives due to culture or physiology without dumbing it down to a slogan that someone's going to resent and defend reflexively, and someone else is maybe going to beat like a drum when they're unable or unwilling to fully argue their point.

No one needs to shut up. But everyone needs to listen.

[raccoon]

82. So, would you be OK with strange men making catcalls at your wife, sister, or daughter?

"but never found the
concept of, for example, catcalls being threatening and demeaning, rather than "fun" for women challenging."

You can't be serious.

[DirkGently]

103. My post means exactly the opposite of what you thought it meant.

Edit: Does this help?

"not challenging" as in "not difficult to grasp."

[raccoon]

104. OK, I get it. thanks for clarifying. nt

[Book Lover]

10. redqueen, I salute you taking up this cause

Good luck with this thread.

[redqueen]

13. Thanks!

I saw so many comments in other threads along the lines of "why is this so hard for some people to get?"... so I really couldn't resist. It doesn't make someone a bad person if they're unaware of privilege. As was said above, it's very hard to be aware of it, absent some external influence.

:hi:

[MedicalAdmin]

11. I hope this gets more reqs.

It deserves a discussion.

The linked essay is very good at explaining a difficult concept and bringing it home.

[redqueen]

15. I obviously agree wholeheartedly!

I hope it does result in a thoughtful discussion, as opposed to walls of hostility being thrown up in defense.

It isn't an attack. It's presented in good faith in an effort to foster more understanding and easier communication.

[DaveJ]

14. Males are mostly assholes in my experience

I can't even make friends with any of them.

I've heard some real nightmare stories about how guys behave toward women, but it is not just when they are mean, but when they are young and inexperienced, or just plain unable to comprehend how to interact in society.

This post is tough to respond to because I assume you are talking about 'those' men and not me.

[redqueen]

17. Of course young people of both sexes can be coarse, rude, etc.

However, the culture in which most of us grow up is like that house in Ohio. With so much bombardment with so many loaded images and messages, almost all reinforcing the dominant message, it's not reasonable to expect that (absent some influence from a parent or mentor) very many would behave very differently.

As for you personally, if you don't go around telling geckos to just get used to it anytime you hear one complain about the cold, or that you have to deal with tepid water sometimes, so they should stop thinking dogs have it so easy - then it's probably not something you need to read in order to "get" the concept of male privilege. :hi:

[HappyMe]

18. The same holds true for women.

I have one close female friend. I have been screwed over more by women that I thought were my friends than men.


Assholery is in human nature. Some have a bunch, some don't.

[DaveJ]

26. Yeah well 'assholes' really isn't what I meant as much as maybe 'idiots'

I don't know how women are able to tolerate us. Obviously there must be something evolutionary about it. Like my wife told me stories about how some guy (she dated) used came over to her house wearing a pink wig in the middle of the night. A guy who talked on his phone throughout dinner on a first date. And you know, guys who will shake the ferris wheel and laugh when the girl is scared to death of heights. Guys who yell at their mothers.

Guys are much stupider socially than women. Can women be assholes? Yeah!!! But they know they are doing it, whereas we men are just idiots and usually do not know how to behave socially. I think this is because most expect women to fall into our laps with zero effort.

Actually it was not until recently that I was able to simply approach a woman as someone I could just be friends with, without having any assumptions or fantasies about having an affair. And I am not young. I could tell you even more stories about what guys say when women aren't around.

[seabeyond]

30. is this boasting? i have mostly been around male friends. i have mostly males in my family.

i eenjoy men and boys.

i guess it depends on the character of .... people.... one choses to be around.

what would happen if a man actually said... man, quit talking about women like that. it could be my sister. my wife. my mother. shock of shocks, what would happen if a man didnt have to denigrate a woman to feel like a man.

[DaveJ]

31. I express my point of view

If a man is talking about women inappropriately, I will tell them they are wrong, in a very objective manner, not in a way that makes them or me feel bad. People do not like being told they are wrong, all I can do is let them know my perspective, and they usually adjust their conversation with me as a result. I do not know if it has a lasting effect, but I suspect it does over time.

I'm assuming you are a woman, if you can enjoy being around men and boys. I don't know how you can do it.

[seabeyond]

33. they are all good people. who care about me. and i, in turn, care about them. my people

are pretty educated, progressive and have always had strong smart women around them. they respect women. it allows me to respect them.

it really is not hard, or a challenge.

i dont play all those conditioned roles of a female that society insists i am. i am pretty true to self. my guys are pretty much the same. so their is not a battle to prove.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[comtec]

70. So women get away with only being idiots is it?

and men are assholes?

what the hell are you then?

Talk about a double standard from hell.
your argument doesn't even make sense!

[dionysus]

77. i think we have found the elusive, often rumoured but never seen until now; the self loathing male.

:rofl:

[TK421]

117. You may be on to something there...I'm beginning to hate myself for clicking on this OP

[comtec]

118. best way to deal with these threads is to avoid them

i'm just in a confrontational mood lately.

I get tired of these misanderous threads.

So now you know, next time RUN AWAY!

[dionysus]

75. very bizarre post.

[comtec]

81. Not really. You see this a lot living around Berkley

men who are so sensitive and properly liberal their testicles have evaporated.

That was me for a long time.

then the harsh reality that not a single female wants to date a guy like that kicked in.
one of the most painful lessons i've ever learned.

Being a nice guy is the A-ticket to lonely ville.

[dionysus]

83. i don't think it's about being a "nice guy". you can be a nice guy without hating yourself or

cutting your stones off!

you're saying there are whole areas of guys who hate what they are?

[comtec]

111. sad but true. they went too far and forgot what and who they are

My exwife is a wonderful person. I still care for her despite everything.
for ME she was the perfect mix.
independent, smart, strong, and still feminine.
Women don't have to give up their uterus to be successful
men do not have to give up their stones to be a decent person.
they simply need to be a decent person.

in all of this perceived gender war, we forget that there is a natural balance in everything.
House dads and soldier women.
There is not this need to fight one another like the OP seems to whip up.

we are all people. and to be honest we're complaining about 1st wold problems.

lets work on the economy, and getting real LIBERALS into office before we go at each other's throats for unintended comments.

will it ever be perfect to people like re Queen's liking? i guarantee not.

But we can strive to make it better for everyone else if we WORK TOGETHER!

[seabeyond]

87. i am very nice, and have never been a doormat in my life. my husband and two boys are very

progressive and their balls are just fine. manhood well in tact. and trusted and respected by the female gender.

further, they are so secure in the manliness, you can call them nice, girlie man or whatever to put them in their place, and hurts them not

there is a difference between doormat and respect, nice, kindness

[comtec]

114. =] I know YOUR family is well balanced

but the person I was replying to isn't.
which is sad.
as i noted above, it's about balance.
you can have it both ways, if you balance it right.

if you go after someone because their balance isn't perfect (not you SB) then that makes that person wonder why they're bothering.

it's said if you need someone else's approval to change, then why do it.... but the OP is demanding radical change.... so yes some approval for going against thousands of years of condition is needed.

it's easy to be a brute. it's hard as fuck to be a nice guy, especially when the brutes seem to get what they want more often than not.

I prefer to be a decent person myself. it's how I was raised. it's cost me dearly, and those costs have made me harder, and a little meaner, because I never felt like there was any point to it. because being he nice guy had gotten me kicked in the teeth more times that I can ever count.

My ex was the one proof I had in this world that it wasn't a complete waste of effort.

So yes it's important for women to make a note of the nice guys. Let them know they're nice. consider DATING the nice guys - if you swing that way - or you'll see them stay rare, and eventually disappear.

again, NOT directed at you SB. you're already 5 kinds of awesome like that. if there were more people like you and your family this world would be a much better place.

[seabeyond]

122. i get that. i understand. lol, why i keep following you around.

my 16 yr old had his first love, fell in love and hurt terribly. i think of you and a couple others that i have listened to on the board. and i keep coming back to my son and saying, you know, being nice is well worth it. and it isnt about being a doormat, or less true to yourself, but dont lose the nice. dont ever lose the nice.

(and i can equally say those bitch women seem to win, also. running roughshod over another, without caring about their feelings is easy, and easy to appear to win. but they dont win. they are at a loss. because they dont have love and they cant look at self in the mirror.)

some people i have met on du, that i really care about come to mind when talking to son, and i dont want him to get to mean, because of this experience. i heed what you men say well. i understand what you are saying, and why you are saying. but like i would say to any woman hurt buy a man. there are a lot more good dudes (dudettes) out there. be selective. go for the good.

really, makes life a hell of a lot easier.

[seabeyond]

125. so, i just came back from lunch with a family i have not seen in a while. the father has always

been all ego. he started walking into judeism years ago. i havent seen them in a while. the transition is complete. a whole meal listening to this man, and his kids praise him as leader. OMG....

i love the wife. she is from calif like i am. we have always gotten along well. but years ago, i said, man wouldnt put up with that shit for a minute.

omg

all the girls and wife dressed dowdy and fundamentalist. sigh...

he wanted to walk in front to lead to table. my book, women always go first. my restaurant, my treat, and i am woman, i go first. (probably didnt like me brushing up against him though (from another thread of a particular jew)). he didnt mind me paying the bill, though.

i had a glass of wine with this meal. i am a not much drinker, but wow.

toward end of meal he wants another daughter to praise him the god he is and i am hearing across the table him trying to get her to tell me. finally i say... got it. eyes narrowed. not a happy, social look on my face.

i could not tell you the number of insults i heard toward women in such a small amount of time. and nothing overt. all subtle. even the ABILITY to pay a damn bill. and all these threads on du of late just filtering thru my head.

:hug: me comtec... lol. i cannot get it out of my head.

[comtec]

128. Oh wow what a schmucking putz

The jewish side of my (step) family is 'reformed' and very modern.
I guarantee my Auntie Joyce would have RIPPED this person's head off.

Yeah, guys like that disgust me, sadly they're often in a position of power above me so I have to stew until after wards.

Good on ya for giving it to him!!

Goddess knows I can't stand people like him.

and MEGA :hug:

Sadly my best friend's lil sister married some bible thumping idiot like that. He's been informed if we even hear a RUMOR of him abusing her, we'll send him to jehova early....
Actually... I just might make a poster of that "do not rape" picture we all got worked up over, and send it to him. Sadly this asshole DOES need something like that to remind him not to touch his wife!

She was always such a smart girl, I have no idea how she got hooked up with that jerk.

[seabeyond]

129. +1. isnt it weird... sigh. nt

[comtec]

130. Yeah sounds like he needs to be reminded we're in the year 6000

not 600! (on the jewish calendar?)

[JoeyT]

131. I identify as a feminist and recognize male privilege

and I'm a volunteer fire fighter, self defense instructor, and MMA enthusiast. So you might want do narrow your brush a little.

What you were is a "nice guy". The guy that's only a feminist because he thinks it will get him laid, not because he actually thinks women are real people. Typically "nice guys" find out women won't date them because they can see through self-centered, condescending fakery and the "nice guy" ends up railing about how terrible women are from his mother's basement.

[comtec]

132. And people complain sex is all men think about...

No actually I am how I am because it's the right way to go.
I've always been kind and sharing. freely giving what I have with no expectation of reward beyond "thank you"

your's is a sad, tired argument I always hear from your side.
it's simply not true.

im not nice because it'll get me laid, i'm nice because I am.
Truth be told if my mother had been more honest in raising me I would be less bitter.
If she was honest and told me "you'll have lots of female friends, but FEW, if any, girlfriends" then I would have been prepared.

lying to children is wrong.
the reality is being an asshole will almost guarantee you the top billing.

being a nice guy doesn't.
it doesn't change who I am.

but it does make me see the world in a much clearer light.

and it makes me realize all the propaganda the misanderists have been putting out is just that.

When you see people who act a certain way never having to be alone, always having a partner, living well, having a good job (they're unqualified for) wouldn't you change your ways to theirs?

being good = being poor, and often alone.
that's life.

don't try to convince me otherwise, when you can't even see your own evils.

[raccoon]

85. Please share with us. "I could tell you even more stories about what guys say when women

aren't around."

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zanzoobar]

16. Lizards are cold blooded

They don't give a crap about thermostats. Talk about privilege.

[hfojvt]

19. not very helpful

it sorta says we all should listen to each other. Does that mean that people should listen when I say that I find the phrase "male privilege" to be offensive?

start at the beginning, going from this definition of "privilege"

"If you talk about privilege, you are talking about the power and advantage that only a small group of people have, usually because of their wealth or their high social class."

Right away there is a problem, because you are not talking about small groups of people. In this country, you would be talking about 150 million men, ranging in age from 1 day to perhaps 110 years old. It's kind of absurd to say that they all have some maleness that gives them privilege over all females.

The little parable is somewhat ridiculous too, as it makes the male dog character into the ONE who is prefectly comfortable and also perfectly in control of the environment which is hardly true of males in general.

Further, what do you expect somebody to say when they are told "the gecko says, “look, you’re hurting me,” " That goes back and contradicts what she said earlier "it's not your fault". At that point, privilege is not what they have, it's about what they do.

Male privilege, white privilege, heterosexual privilege. Is it any wonder I ride my bike to my janitorial job and yell out "I'm king of the world!!"

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. "Male privilege" gets my hackles up to the same degree "female privilege" would for women.

Both exist. Female privilege is mostly elements of the patriarchy which serve their interests.

I say that being aware of both leads to enlightenment.

[seabeyond]

24. but... it would not get my hackles up to discuss female privilege. it would not hurt at all

as a matter of fact, after reading thru posts, i am going to talk about exactly that.

it is all about understanding. and that is not a scary thing for me. nor is it something i think i "lose" if discussed out loud.

[redqueen]

65. Exactly... and what causes the overreaction? The hostility?

I think these questions are very important.

[hfojvt]

153. hostility is caused by absurdity

imagine that you worked digging ditches. So you just put in another greuling 8 hour day of digging ditches and then you walked home in the rain. Walked home, because ditch digging doesn't really pay well enough to afford a car. And then you read somebody writing about "male privilege". Say what? I'm a male! You think it is some kind of privilege to fucking dig ditches? If you try to tell a ditch digger about male privilege, I don't know why you wouldn't expect a shovel upside your head. Just do not expect people living at the 13th percentile of income to be warmly receptive to the idea that they have privileges just becuase of their fucking penis.

One part of the hostility comes because it is not really very fun working shitty jobs, living alone and being in the 13th percentile. Sometimes I will argue that it is not that bad. After all, I have high speed internet, a laptop and some money in the bank and a couple of dogs and a bunch of CDs and DVDs. But other times I can get angry about it. I've fallen and I cannot get up. Sometimes I get comfortable in the mud, but other times I thrash about and think it would be nice to be able to stand up and wash the muck off myself.

It is deeply offensive to talk about my "privileges" when 87% of the country is above me. Not just wrong - offensively wrong.

[kayakjohnny]

20. Thanks, redqueen. I tried to bookmark this but it said I already did.

Weird. When I go to my bookmarks, it's not there.

Any way I hope it gets kicked up so I can check in on it.

I saved the blog page too.

On a side note, haven't you been gone for like a year or so?

If so, welcome back.

[redqueen]

68. My pleasure of course.

Not sure how long I've been gone, but yeah I was away for a while. Thanks for the welcome. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. That is a good blog post.

Especially her point about the invisibility of privilege that we all have.

I don't have to worry about being catcalled. You don't have to worry about getting thrown in prison. I don't have to worry about workplace sexual harassment. You don't have to worry about being injured or dying on the job.

At best, we tend to talk past one another. At worst, we get into a zero-sum pissing match about whether sexual harassment is a bigger problem than workplace safety.

[seabeyond]

25. how about if we make work environments safer and address the criminal system

and work on the catcalls and sexual harassment at work.....

[redqueen]

73. The threads that were being inundated with examples of privilege

weren't about workplace safety or unfair sentencing.

There is no need for a pissing match, or all this hostility.

I wonder why there so much more hostility in discussions about women's issues than there is in discussions about workplace safety or unfair sentencing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Two things: 1) Because of the way they are framed.

If I were to say, "the justice system is unfair, more women should be executed."

Or, "The workplace is too unsafe for men. The money spent on scholarships for women should be redirected to making logging and fishing safe."

You'd have a better example of the way "examples of privilege" are framed here and why they attract hostility.

2) the threads to which you appear to be referring were a thread indicating that OWS is part of the gender war because women don't own anything, and the other was a thread taking all men to task for the crime of rape.

What you see as a hostile privilege dump was to me the most basic kind of fact-checking and a request for fundamental fairness.

[seabeyond]

28. this is not a tough one for me. nor a painful one to own. i am aware of female/white privilege

that i receive, or could receive if i did not adamantly reject it.

i have said in the past and will say it again. i had my son when young ask why blacks should be mad at him. he has never done anything to blacks or any other minority. the majority of kids he has always hung out with have been minority. especially in the area we live, i explained the inherent privileges he has with being a white male. it was not tough for him to recognize. it was not tough for him to understand. he knows that he will still have his issues, but because he is white male, things will be a little easier.

it is not a matter of guilt. or feelings of atonement. simply an acknowledgment. that is all.

[redqueen]

71. "simply an acknowledgment. that is all."

I want to be so snarky. I want to mock all the sidestepping, the whataboutery, the rationalization. I won't, though. But you know... I know you know. I know everyone who ever attempted to discuss these things knows. I don't have to make a list.

[seabeyond]

80. they fight so hard, hold onto to maintain... what? it isnt good for or behoove them to hold onto

this power any more than it is for the rest of us.

because the person that tries to hold onto anothers power, inevitably loses. a person wont respect, like, or become submissive to. there is always a reaction.

at the time when hubby and i married we made clear. i do not want ownership of his power. he does not want ownership of my power. too much work and i trust him to do self better than i can do him. has made it so very easy for both of us. healthy. balanced. grounded.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this.

i had my son when young ask why blacks should be mad at him. he has never done anything to blacks or any other minority. the majority of kids he has always hung out with have been minority. especially in the area we live, i explained the inherent privileges he has with being a white male. it was not tough for him to recognize. it was not tough for him to understand. he knows that he will still have his issues, but because he is white male, things will be a little easier.

What good is white male privilege if it doesn't manifest in any way except resentment from your teachers, friends and community?

[seabeyond]

97. the teachers, friends and community are majority white, so right there, there is an advantage

they apply for a job and the app will be on the top. they walk into a store and they will automatically be treated respectfully. they go to buy a car and they will be treated differentially. drive down a street, less likely to be pulled over. buy a bag of pot and likely get away with it or penalty much less. walk into a room and be accepted more readily. you really do not see a difference? really?

"What good is white male privilege if it doesn't manifest in any way except resentment" the resentment comes from a few and least powerful. the advantages are numerous and comes from a whole. superior to inferior.

[fascisthunter]

29. this male recs your thread

it's something for all men to consider, because it is real. I have seen it first hand and have been also a benefactor of it, although at the time I didn't realize it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

32. *sigh*

I've been posting on another board, and someone keeps posting this in a thread relating to all women supposedly wanting expensive engagement rings:

http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html

Over and over and over and over and over.....

No one replies.....the guy just goes on and on with his women hating/baiting.

So go argue with this guy instead of shitting on the rest of us. To me it's the same thing.

[Zanzoobar]

34. Hoo... boy.

Executive Summary : The Western World has quietly become a civilization that undervalues men and overvalues women, where the state forcibly transfers resources from men to women creating various perverse incentives for otherwise good women to conduct great evil against men and children, and where male nature is vilified but female nature is celebrated. This is unfair to both genders, and is a recipe for a rapid civilizational decline and displacement, the costs of which will ultimately be borne by a subsequent generation of innocent women, rather than men, as soon as 2020.

[loyalsister]

38. Yeah.... tell that to a woman

who has gone to jail over impossible child support amount under the order of a judge who criticized her for "not acting like a mother" when she gave up custody to her ex.

Or to the one who is prosecuted for prostitution after having been sold as a sex slave.

[Zanzoobar]

40. I wasn't being critical

Just reading it was a load.

[loyalsister]

42. I thought so

I was agreeing with you and illustrating a point. :) It's not always easy to make things clear on a msg board.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

41. It's useless drivel that divides us

I'd rather these folks just argue with one another.

[redqueen]

63. Shitting on the rest of you? What are you talking about?

That interesting theory has nothing to do with a discussion about male privilege.

You seem to consider them to be topics you don't like, so why are you reading/posting in the threads?

[derby378]

35. It's a darn shame I've been away from DU...

If I saw any of these threads, I reckon I'd be jumping on those of us who just don't "get it" yet. And I know ChickMagic would be, too.

[redqueen]

76. Aw...

I thought of her just the other day. :hug:

[Warren DeMontague]

36. "rape and harmful images of women" sort of like, "axe murder and existential ennui"

In that, you have two things there, you're lumping them together, but they're very different- one is pretty clear, and one is completely ill-defined. One is a violent criminal act, and one is an aesthetic opinion, or something some people don't like.

I think it's pretty easy, or it should be, to come up with a working definition of "rape", starting with (but by no means limited to) a non-consensual sex act.

Now, please, since both these deals have been slapped down as equal examples, please provide a solid criterion for what constitutes a "harmful image" (of women, apparently. I will leave aside the question of whether images can harm men, animals, plants, etc.) ... just a short, solid list of what exactly constitutes a harmful image of women and the mechanism whereby said images harm women, either individual women or all-women-as-the-category-of-all-women-who-have-ever-existed.

Lastly, let's be honest- the threads you're talking about haven't been about 'rape'. Where have the recent rape threads been? If you've got a link, please... and if anyone here has been DEFENDING rape, I will be the first person to line up and call them on their heteronormative privileged full-of-shitness. But, really, that's not what the recent threads I think you're referencing have been about. They've been about, again, 'harmful images of women' (as perceived by some), and where I really suspect we're going is down the rabbit hole of another giant DU battle over porn, whereby some argue that "progressives" need to be anti-porn, and the rest of us think there's absolutely nothing wrong with pictures of consenting adults fucking.

[eridani]

57. Is there something wrong with consenting adults using the swastika and other Nazi symbols--

--in a private S/M scene? I'd say not. Is there something wrong with painting a swastika on a synagogue wall? FUCK YES!

[redqueen]

91. Both those 'deals' have not been 'slapped down' as equal examples.

Whatever gave you that idea? It was sheer coincidence. Two threads which involved women's rights issues.

There was a thread in which the OP showed an anti-rape poster. The poster turned the usual 'Watch out, women!' message into more of a 'Stop doing this, men!' idea.

[Odin2005]

37. As I mentioned in the other thead, it took my best friend being raped for me to get it.

:(

[redqueen]

94. But you did get it!

No need to be sad... it's not easy to see on your own.

[Odin2005]

102. Thanks!

:hug:

[customerserviceguy]

39. Cute story

But it involves living beings of not only different species, but of totally different parts of the animal kingdom, the warm-blooded mammalian dog and the cold-blooded reptilian gecko. If you have to go that far to make a point between two halves of the same species, maybe you've gone a bit too far in your analogy.

[pink-o]

44. "Privilege" exists in all walks.

Like the Christian asking me if I was at church on Sunday. The idea of an Ashkenazi agnostic doesn't even spark a single synapse.

Or the white person who drives thru the urban neighborhoods, sees the miserable housing developments and wonders why the residents "don't take better care of their property". They'll never understand that the people there are shoved into inferior accommodations, treated like second-class citizens, and can't possibly take pride in something they never asked for and don't feel any attachment for. And when those neighborhoods rise up in anger, the same white person quakes in his boots and says: "Why are those people so ungrateful? Look at all we've done for them!"

Then you have the gay man or woman who's constantly confronted with a culture of hetero images of happy couples, nuclear families, literature, art, television, films, businesses: all who don't even acknowledge them yet freak out when they insist on "special rights".

Yeah, it sucks. But look here: I'm a white Jewish middle-class woman, raised in blissful isolation in the 60s from anyone too much different from me. But I ran from that sheltered life, worked low-class jobs, met dignified, wonderful friends from all walks of life and saw firsthand how invisible they were to most of society. I take public transpo, sit with diverse folks on city benches, strike up conversations with people who speak English as a second language. I have straight white men friends too, who've taught me many valuable lessons and have made valid contributions to the lives of others.

What I'm saying is the only way to eradicate "privilege" is to get the hell out there, meet people who're not like you and make a conscious effort to open your mind to all ideas. By the time we're adults, we're all bigots. It takes a lifetime to jettison judgment, but it's a worthwhile pursuit.

Mark Twain once said: "Travel is fatal to prejudice". We only need to travel a few miles from home to find that's true.

[seabeyond]

46. i really enjoy your posts, pink-o

all 7 foot of you

[pink-o]

148. Thanx, Sea!!!!

:toast: :fistbump: :headbang:

[varelse]

45. thanks for the link

this is very helpful :)

[Rowdyboy]

47. I've had the benefits of male and white privilege all my life....I think being gay has helped me

understand and see male privilege much more clearly. Certainly its helped me see heterosexual privilege for what it is.

K&R

[iris27]

48. I honestly think it takes a "click" moment for most people.

But it has to be the person with relative privilege that does that work. Intersectionality plays a good role here; finding the ways you are not privileged by society and extrapolating from that. Though this of course is more difficult for folks who have privilege in many different areas - say, a white, het, cis, able-bodied, Christian male.

In my case, I had spent a lot of time on feminist sites, discussing issues with guys for whom ANY criticism of sexism in our society was taken as a criticism of THEM personally and who could not get past that anger. Well, those experiences helped stop me cold the first time I read an anti-racist blogger and found myself going "But hey, I'm white and I'm not like that!"

Dealing with commenters who felt the need to say "but what about the men?" in every discussion (seriously, even objecting to International Women's Day), kept me from saying stupid shit like, "well, isn't this really more of a class issue than a race issue?" in discussions about systemic racism.

The frustrating thing about it is that this shift of viewpoint has to come from the person with the relative privilege. As the example in the link demonstrates, it's just not something you can really explain to another and have them understand.



------



Oh, and on a mostly unrelated note, this line from the linked blog absolutely slayed me:

If you’re white and a black person says “really, now, we’re all getting a little tired of that What These People Need Is A Honky trope, please write a better movie,” listen and believe her.

I'm totally on board with the sentiment. I remember people being just flabbergasted that I didn't like Avatar and not understanding when I explained why. At the time I was just calling it the White Savior trope, and saying we'd already been there and done that with Dances With Wolves, Glory, Dangerous Minds, etc.

But the name "What These People Need Is A Honky" is so much better! :rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. One poster observed that the most comfortable place in dog and gecko-land is in the dog's hair.

So gecko agrees to do household tasks in exchange for the cozy comfort of dog fur.

There are times that it sucks to carry a gecko around, but he knows that she's dependent on him for protection from the elements. We'll call this cultural expectation the patribarky.

Gecko gets tired of the fleas so she leaves, but not before getting a court order to shave the dog and keep the hair.

Next act: summer. There's not much furry dog can do about the disadvantage he now faces.

[WildEyedLiberal]

54. Thanks for posting this - I gave it a rec

Although I do not entirely agree with the author, which I explain further in a post upthread. I think privilege IS an important thing to discuss, and it IS a real social phenomenon, but I think the way it's discussed is far too often counterproductive. But this thread has been a good conversation starter, and it is a discussion worth having, so thank you :)

[redqueen]

99. Thank you for discussing it!

:hi:

[Silver Swan]

55. I am a 65 year old woman

And the dog vs gecko analogy brought tears to my eyes because, in my experience, it is so true.

Thank you.

[redqueen]

100. Aw....

I also found it to be a very good description of the way the world is. :hug:

[undergroundpanther]

58. Being a transgender

Female to male ,I can tell you first hand that male privilege exists.Some guys DO talk about women like a piece of meat to fuck.They do get off on depictions of female degradation. It's disgusting how arrogant some guys are strutting around like little roosters,and hollering a sexual slurs,or harassment to a woman happens to be near or touching her when she does not want to be touched,that is bullying and a disregard of her humanity and her power over her own body.No male would tolerate it if a woman the male did not like groped him he would stop the groper.If a woman punches a groper she's a prude a harpy,in reality just like the man,she's defending the boundary of his body.Everyone has a right to defend themselves from unwanted gropes,touches or cruel comments.Sadly women have forgotten they have a right to defend themselves as much as any guy would. This is about POWER and the abuse of it.
... Rape can permanently damage a person for LIFE. I have seen guys joking about it, in private,looking at women tied up in ropes.It was a mental circle jerk to the idea of gang raping a helpless person. It was a terrible thing to witness but these guys didn't see it that way because the power dynamics of abuse they were doing was invisible to them..They didn't know I was not always a guy,so they were disarmed around me. I have the testosterone level of a normal guy, my blood tests prove it and yes some things changed ,but I have not become cruel.I see a nice looking person I don't have to yell anything about her body in public to appreciate her seductiveness or beauty. In reality There is no need to ever believe any guy says MUST have sex, or needs to look at violent porn to get off or cannot control his sexual drive ,he is a liar 100%.A guy who yells shit at women about their bodies is a man that likes to scare/intimidate/humiliate, or abuse power with women,it's a lust for POWER not lust or love, or even lust at all. It may very well be a learned behavior or a sadist problem .It is a DISPARITY OF POWER that's defined as male privilege .And abusing power and making a woman feel bad,or intimidated or looking at porn that may very well be pictures of slaves than denying is could be a fuel for sex trafficking,a huge profit maker.All that has NOTHING to do with having testosterone in your bloodstream ,love or sexuality at all.It has everything to do with POWER and the abusive dynamics of power.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[undergroundpanther]

150. Because I'm not female

And because I was born female I know what the oppression of women by men and feeling unsafe in an environment feels like and as my body came into alignment with my mind and I saw a profound change in how other men acted twords me and I didn't expect it to be so stark of a difference. And just because I became a man now does not mean I lost my desire to defend women help them to feel safe in the environment.You see I still refuse male privilege,as a male. Why, because male privilege is abuse of power,that I will not do that shit because I have a deeper reason,I value my own integrity,I walk my talk,so becoming male was not my choice,but becoming a male that abuses through male privilege that IS a choice and society still sanctions that choice. But I don't have to.

[redqueen]

101. You bring up so many good points.

So many issues that each deserve their own discussion IMO. I saw your other thread, and I hope your points about power and sexuality become more widely examined. It's so far past overdue.

[Zorra]

88. Very insightful, thanks. knr

[SoDesuKa]

98. I Don't Believe This

The assertion that male privilege is invisible to males is a tautology. There's no way to dispute it without acknowleging its existence, which might be all right if it did indeed exist. Thus people who argue the existence of male privilege assert a kind of privilege in itself. If you weren't such a pig you'd see what I'm talking about.

Ummm . . . no. I just don't believe it. If there were something there, I'm not such a goat that I wouldn't see it.



I am not a goat.

[Taverner]

107. Oh it goes far beyond that. Even in "meritocracies" women work twice as hard

And never get taken as seriously as men who work half as hard...

[redqueen]

115. Well you know, I'm not starving or living without access to clean water...

so I really have no reason to seek any further understanding from anyone. I mean, when you look at it that way, Americans have it so good that complaining about any of our 'first world problems' is really very silly. I don't agree with that viewpoint, but apparently other people here do.

And also this is simply unimportant and meaningless and divisive, so we shouldn't even attempt to discuss it until after we've solved whatever other crises are considered more important by those who know better than I.

:sarcasm:

[lumberjack_jeff]

149. The fact that we don't agree

Doesn't suggest that I don't appreciate the good faith effort you've taken to discuss the issue.

FWIW, I appreciate that.

[BlueIris]

113. Male privilege kills.

I weep for any person stuck in a bad relationship with a troglodyte who doesn't understand what it is.

[comtec]

116. Do you also weep for the men in abusive relationships?

beaten down every day, told they're just this side of worthless?
unable to ever do anything right
having EVERYTHING they ever to pissed on
constantly having other's greater achievements pointed out

oh yes, because women are incapable of being abusive in your world aren't they?

[Scout]

123. why don't you start a thread about it???

i NEVER see male DUers post threads about men's rights in divorce, domestic abuse against men, or "bring our sons to work" day, or misandry, etc. ... they never seem to be able to start their own thread to discuss those issues, but boy oh boy (huh huh) let a female DUer post a thread about women's rights in divorce, domestic abuse against women, bring our daughters to work day, misogyny, etc and here come the boys.... stomping their feet, demanding attention, trying to derail the discussion.

and don't we DARE try to do something to help women unless we do the same thing to help men, else we prove we're just nasty ol' man-hating feminazis!

PATRIARCHY HURTS MEN TOO! why don't you talk about me, me, me, me!!!! wahhhhhhhhh, you mean women don't care about us mens, waaaaahhhhhhh!

so predictable :eyesroll:

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stevenleser]

126. Oh yes, there absolutely have been OPs about mens rights in divorce. No one wants to hear about it.

You talk about vitriol. The folks who start those threads get loads of abuse heaped on them.

[seabeyond]

127. well, the times i have discussed them i think i have seen both sides

and tend to suggest that in some areas it is against the father. though, what i have seen in texas, gender is not the issue and they work very hard to advocate for the father. what i experienced in LA with my brother.... not so much.

120K spent, judge ruled he the best parent. important in daughter life. he is the stable one. mom does not physically abuse daughter, so she goes to mom.

not so fair

[comtec]

136. not to mention child support comes out before rent money

More than a few guys who had decent jobs are living in abject poverty.
YES a father should pay child support. no question there.
however I would also add the caviot that unless there is a court order, he should also have visitation rights!
if a father is prevented from seeing his children, he doesn't have to pay.
harsh? no worse than what is put on the father.

that is of course assuming the kids are his.
it's rare, but common enough to suggest that if the kids are NOT the ex-husband's he has no obligation to pay one red cent.

That said, back to child support, it should be a reasonable percentage of a parent's wage. Yes I think ex-wives need to pay child support too! for those rare occasions when the father actually gets to keep his kids...

oh lord isn't all this going to be FUN when we start seeing gay divorces! then the inherent sexism AGAINST MEN is going to have to be written OUT of the laws (finally) especially when you get your first lesbian (why is there a separate work for gay women?) divorce case with kids!

and to prove my point.... when looking into a simple no-fault divorce with my ex, I have discovered the system is BUILT this way! They WANT you to fight over every last piece of china (NO LIE)!!!

Truth is, if we went that route it's destroy my ex financially, and I really don't want to do that to her. Yes she started her fortune while we were married, but I don't feel any ownership towards it.
P's and Q's ... even in a no-fault state like MN, it's a difficult and expensive process to get a simple dissolution of what was originally only $25...

[seabeyond]

139. interesting points. i will say, i have had little experience with divorce

not a huge people person and the people i know have not divorced, but one or two. that being said, what i have taken note of, generally when mom hands kids to dad cause she can't do them for whatever reason, she seems to not pay, but expects father to pay. BUT, that being said, that is not ALL cause i hear women on du that pay child support, also. just the few i know, the xwife doesnt pay and i dont think that is fair.

on the child being the fathers. what has surprised the shit out of me and i dont seem in line with a lot of people, if the father finds out the child is not his, he STILL has to pay. everything about that is wrong to me. and instead of blaming the man for not meeting financial responsibility of a child he finds out is not his, i think we ought to blame the lying, piece of dog mama that hid the biological father from all. courts declare that the nonbiologial father has to pay.

i have never heard of fathers not getting visitation and any woman that would deny the child father out of nastiness is "icky". something i really pressed with niece that was mad at, didnt like the father of her daughter. tough. 50% his and you should have thought of that before sex.

what i have seen in this area though, is the courts have an arbritator and it is not that expensive if both parents are reasonable and they do try to be fair to fathers. can't complain.

i have heard people on du say though that lawyers work at making it messy.

my beef ont he guys side though... is why the hell they are expected to pay for everything. i started a thread on that. 18 yrs ago, before i married, i refused to let the man pay for all. he take the dinner, i will take the movie, or whatever. i thought for sure the guy paying found its death and done and buried. now i hear that many people of both gender still expect the guy to pay. that one makes NO sense to me whatsoever.

i wouldnt let the guy pay for a couple three reasons. no way.

[comtec]

146. think the divorce laws that favor women are an ironic example of the patriarchy

Where the man is expected to be the complete provider.
They were also written back in a time when ONE paycheck could cover the family AND have play money left over.
now a days TWO paychecks are needed to have any kind of leeway.
My ex and i are struggling far more on our own than when we were together (obviously)

but yeah the entire legal system around divorce is evil and draconic!

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pithlet]

141. edit because post was deleted

[Taverner]

133. Male Privlege kills in other ways too

Women who die because they cannot get safe access to a medically necessary abortion (yes, this happens more than you think)

Women who get worse medical treatment than men (again, this happens more than you think)

Women who are routinely targets of street violence

White Straight Male Privilege hurts everyone, even the white male straights

[redqueen]

134. "Women who get worse medical treatment than men "

That stuff is just incredible, really. Studies show that even minorities will treat other minorities of their same group worse than they treat members of dominant groups.

Sociology is a fascinating subject.

[Taverner]

135. A nurse I know told me the male doctors would routinely dismiss women in the ER as "hysteria"

Yet sit in rapt attention to anything the male patients say

Sad, but true

[Joe Fields]

140. I cannot and will not deny that men have privilege.

I cannot and will not deny that women have every reason to be concerned about going out alone in public, about being wary of occupied elevators, or walking through parking lots at night, or being looked upon as objects of sexual desire, having to ward off roaming unwanted hands, or co-workers leers, or catcalls and wolf whistles.

All of that is true, and I, as a male find it impossible to be able to truly understand what it means to have to deal constantly with all of the above, and then some.

BUT, women enjoy a great deal of privilege, also. They know where the center of the universe is, and they know how to take full advantage of that fact.

[redqueen]

142. "They" are not a homogenous entity.

And no, "they" don't know where the "center of the universe" is. Furthermore, some find that (if it is what I think you're referring to) a rather crippling thing to have. A hindrance. A curse.

[Joe Fields]

143. I'll stand by my statement. I can cite a hundred examples, if you need.

[redqueen]

147. Save it.

Your post, the post below and several others have convinced me that this is pointless... and that I've had my fill of DU for a while.

[SoDesuKa]

144. Center of the Universe

Problem is, it doesn't stay the center of the universe. That's the hell of it. They get used to it, then it's over. Then they bitch about the unfairness of it all.



Center of the Universe

[seabeyond]

145. unless you are suggesting the center of the universe is mans penis and i would just have to

quibble about that. lol

[BrendaBrick]

151. Be that as it may...

about ALL of the discussions taking place here - good, bad and ugly - In a much more broader, deeper sense, I think it (begs) welcomes the opportunity, the opening up of a very important dialog (warts and all)...all the same ~

I am sure many of us just naturally (sub-consciously) harbor certain slants/perspectives simply by being *only* human and having only a certain slice of life within our own parameters to draw upon in life as being *the* reality and I think what is probably most important is...bottom line... that *ya never really know for sure, another person's perspective unless you have walked a mile in their shoes*.

No. Nope. Not really.

I appreciate undergroundpanther's unique perspective having experienced first-hand, both sides of an issue. Insight and experience like this is extremely hard to find and I for one feel that there is much to be learned from this. Thanks UGP for being so up-front!

Having said that, I remember watching a program many years ago about a transgendered person (gosh, what IS the politically correct term here...?) *changed* from male to female. An attorney. Only he changed to she and was astonished as to the difference in the way she was now treated. Same person, mind you. Same brain. Only now, as as a female experienced a decidedly disrespected, dumbing-down as a female which was not experienced as a male. (I wish I could remember that documentary).

Anyway, my point is...(and I really DO have one, by the way...) is that what I think all of us might really need to do is something which is very, very simple but maybe not-so-much EASY...is to just simply LISTEN to one another without judgement.

Just.....listen.

Many times life just ain't so black and white. Not so...*clear-cut* (Oh, wouldn't it be sooooooo much easier if it were?) Nope. Ain't like that. Just not how it kind of shakes out ~

There have been a couple of instances, stories actually, that I have come across in the course of my life that I knew were important at the time and sort of just filed away in the back of my mind, knowing that they were important (on some level) but yet lacking the modality, platform, indeed ripe circumstances in which to express.

Welp, tonight is the night!

I have gathered a few examples of the experiences of people who have literally had the opportunity to *walk in someone elses shoes*

First off we begin with the movie: "Shallow Hal" During the filming of this movie, Gwyneth Paltrow donned a fat-suit as part of her character. From what I can recall, in between scenes, Paltrow went outside the studio for lunch or whatever and was at first shocked then saddened to discover that as a *fat person* the folks on the lot did not recognize her and...well..basically treated her as if she was invisible simply because of her size. No eye contact made.

Second is the experiment (I can't for the life of me recall the particulars) of a 20 something white guy who took pills so that his skin would turn darker and (if memory serves) couldn't wait until it *wore off* because of all the nasty prejudice he underwent. An experience completely above and beyond anything else that he had experienced before.

Thirdly is the brave movie by Chris Rock on (so-called) *Good Hair*. How little black girls just naturally judge *their hair* as not being *good enough*. How these little girls just (naturally?) assume that long blonde hair is somehow....better?

Lastly is a show called: "What Would You Do?" Now grant it, ain't a whole lot of shows on regular TV that is worth a hoot these days - 'cept maybe this one. A *candid-camera* version updated to expose our own prejudices...To oursleves....*(and most importantly) ABOUT ourselves:

Take this segment for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0kV_b3IK9M

Holding a mirror up to ourselves. Hoo boy!

Believe it or not - I think that many of us, to some degree or another need to maybe try and step just a little bit more outside of ourselves to what is really going down.

And really...(shrug) really now...the absolute astonishing fact about it all is that...we are only a matter of generations from being ALL CONNECTED anyway - genetically - according to Henry Louis Gates, Jr. (You might remember) That Harvard professor with the PBS series: "Faces of America" that was arrested in his own neighborhood because he was black and misplaced his own keys and was therefore seen as *breaking in* to what....his own house?

Yeah. This is the stuff folks that we really need to contemplate. ALL these examples. True that women DO ENDURE sexual harassment and abuse and also true...so do some men. Try to break it down to gender, ethnicity, body weight....it all boils down to the same thing.

Listen and hear.

This is not *their* story...Nope. Not at all. In fact...it is ALL of our stories!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll leave you with this: (Crank it up!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7iQbBbMAFE&ob=av2e

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R2RsP43rmg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lyZd0JZCK0

Reach out and touch a hand ~ :-)

Yepper....Life is just too damned short to waste ya'll...once you know and FEEL the TRUTH!

In the words of Chief Seattle: Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.”

― Chief Seattle

damn fricking skippy!

[seabeyond]

154. black like me. i read when young. bought the book so both kids could read

my oldest read when he was about 8. needed adultish nonfiction. he read again when he was older. my youngest son read at about 12.

yesterday i was talking to my 16 yr old son about a family i had lunch with that has become very fundamental in their religion. father is the leader to the exclusion of mother. i was telling him about the threads on the jewish community putting up signs telling women to step to the side to allow men to pass by and women had to sit in back of the bus, because they were dirty, not clean????

i said to this teenage boy, i know you don't truly get how offensive this is to women, though intellectually you are right there.

he interrupted and said he did get it on an emotional level. that whenever we discuss this stuff, he brings it to personal experience in some way so that he can feel the experience and better understand the emotion.

a long time ago i recognized society directing and guiding me as a woman. i didn't like a lot of the things that women are conditioned with. truly offended and against my nature. i let go of the conditions and truly, it was refusing the privileges. and life really is better. becoming the human and not the gender really has paid off so much more.