Here s the problem with kadaffi's death

[nadinbrzezinski]

Yes...brutal dictator...

He was loaded alive into an ambulance

Yes bombs cause quite a bit of concussive force, ergo internal bleeding.

He might have died from internal bleeding, but f he was executed it raises all kinds of issues.

If he died from injuries, that s war.

Regardless he did die the martyr's death he wanted.

And no, I shan't join in any celebration...as to showing bodies...has become sop since the two sons of Hussein were killed and it is disturbing at some level. (I could cite chapter/verse of war conventions but whatever)

I hoe this tells Assad find a place to go or that might be his future too.

[Puregonzo1188]

1. Gaddafi was a brutal dictator, but I am not a supporter of extra-judicial executions.

And there's been a string of them lately implying that is the new normal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. As I said if he died from internal injuries

That is not an extra judicial execution...if he died from a 9mm as reported earlier, that is. It would mean in the anbulance.

[FarCenter]

9 mm is used in both machine pistols and in handguns

He was in a culvert under a road? In Vietnam, the guys who went down into the Viet Cong tunnels used handguns.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. And some machine guns, uzi and mp5 are not machine pistols

They are SMGs.

[chrisa]

87. I think it might be all three

I wouldn't doubt some variants of SMGs, machine pistols, and hand guns use 9mm ammo. It's such a popular caliber for guns that it's hard to say what kind of gun it came from.

[malaise]

34. Same here n/t

[Amonester]

3. No guillotine there...

I guess...

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Well bombs are pretty nasty

[kestrel91316]

5. So he was executed. By his own countrymen. WE did not do it.

Shit happens. Oh, well.......

I won't shed a single tear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. That's not the point

Killing somebody, regardless of who, inside an ambulance raise all kinds of hackles.

[The Magistrate]

10. Those Hackles Settle Down Quick Enough, Ma'am: He Was Not Going To Survive This

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. As a former red cross worker, no they don't

Every time a round goes through...

[The Magistrate]

20. Personal Feelings Are One Thing, Ma'am

If he was taken in any manner but a formal, arranged surrender, he was going to die, on the spot or very soon after, everyone knew that: people generally live easily enough with an outcome that was expected.

"The ram has touched the wall."

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. The conventions are not feelings.

[The Magistrate]

23. There Will Be No Prosecution For This, Ma'am

"Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown..."

[nadinbrzezinski]

That's not the point

But whatever...since there will be no prosecution we should also forget insert war crime here...like say guernica...there was no prosecution so why put it into the historic record? Or for that matter Abu grain? That is the logic.

[The Magistrate]

29. Like Any Other Form Of Energy, Ma'am, Outrage Exists In Finite Quantities

It is better to keep a budget, and direct it where it is most appropriate, and might do the most good, just as it is better to direct electric current to a hospital rather than to the sprinklng system of a gold course, should the supply of power be restricted. My outrage budget is exhausted by this vale of tears long before the summary execution, if any, of a dictator is reached.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Whatever

I don't expect you to understand it...

[The Magistrate]

38. As You Wish, Ma'am

"The ambulances never came very near the front line. If they came too near the Fascists had a habit of shelling them--justifiably, for in modern war no one scruples to use an ambulance for carrying ammunition."

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. This is what happens when neutrality is violated

Don't worry American civilian ambulances lack that protection, so it's ok.

It is a sore point since I was a red cross medic, not a hartson's medic, not a fire department medic, but a red cross one. And I drilled neutrality into my kids

Don't expect you to get it...kind of one thing you need to be there to start to understand.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

64. Yikes! Was that yours? Where were you a medic?

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. In Mexico

And one of my rigs for a few rounds go through the radiator. We joked that an ambulance died. These days that's no longer a joke, an ambulance is attacked once a month and drug dealers have stopped ambulances and executed rivals (at times medics too) at least once a month.

Recently drug leaders executed a communications officer in Colima for example.

This one is from Lebanon. But every time neutrality is violated we take another step towards more attacks on humanitarian workers.

[ellisonz]

66. I think it's important to note...

...that in 7 months of following this I have read at least a dozen accounts of Gaddafi men targeting ambulances, doctors, nurses, hospitals etc...but not a single one of the thuwar doing so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. And this makes it right how?

Every one of those attacks was wrong.

[The Magistrate]

72. It is Not A Question Of Making It Right, Ma'am, But Of pointing Out Existng Precedent

The loaf is opened, and many slices have already been removed; it changes nothing if one more is pilfered. The neutrality of medical workers and their equipment is neutral and that should be recognized, but as a matter of fact, it is not reliably so recognized, and has not been for a long time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Having been in a rig that received automatic fire I know that

But in your mind that's ok since there is precedent.

Okie dokie

[The Magistrate]

76. In Any Case, Ma'am, Footage Up Nearby Seems To Indicate No Ambulance was Involved

Nor is pointing out that something is to be expected, and that one more instance of it makes little difference, the same as saying it is 'okay'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. News says he was loaded into ambulance and was still alive

Sorry if I care. And yes, if he was executed in an ambulance I will be outraged...I don't truly expect you to understand it.

[ellisonz]

73. If you don't understand what the Libyan fighters went through...

...you don't understand humanity.

I think that if he had surrendered peaceably he would have been taken prisoner. He did not. His fighters did not. They paid the price. How would you feel if a dictatorship murdered your family members, stole 40 years of history from you, destroyed your home, destroyed your culture...you would react similarly. It's not entirely clear at this point what happened. I wouldn't rush to judgment. But facts are facts...Gaddafi was an evil man and his death was in many ways inevitable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. And you think I don't?

Okie dokie...

I'll ask this and din't expect an answer, it is purely rethorical...have you ever worked for any red cross that actually has an EMS component? For that matter what are the humanitarian principles of the red cross movement?

[ellisonz]

85. I think you made a couple rushes to judgment in this thread...

...especially that he was executed in an ambulance by a 9mm pistol.

I've worked alongside EMT's, firemen, police officers, conservation officers etc. I'm realistic and am not going to debate the humanitarian aspects about the fall of Sirte. Gaddafi is a monster. Fini.
:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. But NOT as a red cross worker

And that makes a world of difference. You see that schaefer rig, or fd does not have Geneva convention protections.

Thanks for playing and yes, it matters if you ever have a shooting war.

[Joe Fields]

92. I would imagine that he very much "gets it." In fact, I would venture

to say that the Magistrate's understanding goes much deeper.

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. Really

Joe tell me how any times did you get into one of these?




More times than I can think in ten years.

Did you ever take a graduate course in international law?

Did you teach driving principles?

I respect the magistrate, but on this one I did all those things.

And yes, I am an absolutist when it comes to the Geneva Convention, not because they are respected many a times...but because that attitude of who cares don't help. You see a young radio operator was killed in Culiacan recently by really bad guys. They violated that principle of neutrality. But you see, people in the states don't get this. The last ambulance service the ARC ran was in the 1920s. There is really no connection, and if we ever go into a hot civil war I expect ambulances to get Shot up pretty badly. See them posts for a clue why.

Oh that includes hospitals too by the way.

[Joe Fields]

110. the sanctity of the ambulance was intact. he was shot outside of it.

by Libyans. I have no problem with that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. We don't know

And as a writer you too are having issues with the use of the conditional IF?

[Joe Fields]

130. It was you who were making it sound as if he were shot inside the ambulance.

I've seen the video. He was murdered alright, but awayfrom the ambulance. Of that I am certain. So, I have no problem with a conditional if, when the facts aren't there, but in this case, it does not apply.

[Joe Fields]

91. This is the nature of humans...(Kharma's a bitch...)

I happen to agree to the letter of what you wrote, sir. I will lose no sleep over how he died. As you so appropriately put it, "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."

[PurityOfEssence]

49. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.

Robert Towne is a national treasure, non?

None of this makes it right.

This was an illegal war on every level: a violation of the UN Participation Act, a violation of the War Powers Resolution, and a violation of the NATO treaty.

There simply wasn't the peril of the masses to justify this, and it was done for oil, PERIOD. It was justified by our President with screeching innuendo as bad as anything used by George W. Bush, and is being sustained by such.

We're bullies. We're thugs. We have no respect for national sovereignty or international law, and we're perfectly happy to defile the most moral and ethical of human justifications to get our way.

Sleep well; apparently ANYTHING this President does is by definition honorable.

[The Magistrate]

67. And At The Root Of Every Great Fortune, Sir, Is a Great Crime

But that does not alter the fact that there will be no prosecution for killing this man.

[PurityOfEssence]

136. "As little as possible"

Perhaps the most profound line of the screenplay.

Then, of course, there's this:

"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."

We're on the side of gangsters, but that's nothing new. He was a bad man, but he did some very good things, too. The problem is that he didn't give us everything we wanted. Due to that, he had to go. Yet another proud moment.

[Amonester]

13. What happened 'exactly' will probably be never known.

Unless a tape of 'what happened exactly' (which also means, 'un-edited' by anyone) shows up (expect many 'edited' ones...).

[kestrel91316]

15. Certainly. But that's an internal matter for the Libyan authorities to deal with.

I don't give a hoot WHAT they did to him in the ambulance.

I haven't forgotten Lockerbie.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. As a red cross worker I care

Something people do not understand: neutrality


For the record, American CIVILIAN ambulances don't have that protection, so I get it why people don't get it.

[FarCenter]

19. He was Libyan, it was in Libya, by Libyans. They have jurisdiction

They can sort it out.

[seabeyond]

77. with ya.... he excuted plenty of them. nt

[snagglepuss]

6. Gadaffi was spouting pure BS by claiming he wanted to die a martyr.

He was a despicable brute who wanted to live at any cost. He merely reaped the whirlwind he sowed. Chalk up his execution to the fog of war.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. At a certain level he wanted it

And got it

[JoePhilly]

17. Agree ... he never wanted to be an actual Martyr. Being a "living Martyr" is far more lucrative.

And past that, I doubt many will miss him for long.

[TheWraith]

9. From the way they describe it, I'm guessing he was probably fatally injured by the crowd.

Hands and feet can do a lot of damage.

[aquart]

11. You think this started with the sons of Hussein?

This is the MidEAST. Hell, read your Bible. Get a book on Babylon. My God, they have been creatively murdering their leaders for millenniums.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Whatever

Modern period, whatever.

[thewiseguy]

22. He is no martyr and in fact I do hope Assad has a very similar future

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. In his mind he died that death

And Assad is next. He got the death he wanted. As to the matter of how I probably will not bother any longer to point the problems with it...blood thirsty is the rule of the day.

[snagglepuss]

41. If he got the death he wanted, I'm glad Libyans were able to accomodate him.

[sad sally]

84. One can only wonder when all the good leaders have killed all the

bad leaders who the next targets will be. The greater the power the more dangerous the abuse.

[tcaudilllg]

129. The good leaders are always the targets of their lieutenants once the enemy is truly vanquished

The lieutenants they relied on to do their dirty work for them. Because after defeating the obstacles from without...

[ChandlerJr]

24. It's an old tradition of the liberated

as Benito Mussolini found out the hard way.

On 29 April 1945, the bodies of Mussolini, Petacci, and the other executed Fascists were loaded into a moving van and trucked south to Milan. There, at 3:00 am, they were dumped on the ground in the old Piazzale Loreto. The piazza had been renamed "Piazza Quindici Martiri" in honor of 15 anti-Fascists recently executed there.

After being shot, kicked, and spat upon, the bodies were hung upside down on meathooks from the roof of an Esso gas station. The bodies were then stoned by civilians from below. This was done both to discourage any Fascists from continuing the fight and as an act of revenge for the hanging of many partisans in the same place by Axis authorities. The corpse of the deposed leader became subject to ridicule and abuse. Fascist loyalist Achille Starace was captured and sentenced to death and then taken to the Piazzale Loreto and shown the body of Mussolini. Starace, who once said of Mussolini "He is a god," saluted what was left of his leader just before he was shot. The body of Starace was subsequently strung up next to the body of Mussolini.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Alas not inside an ambulance

This technicality is beyond most people I guess

[ChandlerJr]

36. I guess some just aren't as enlightened

shame that nobody was there to advise them on the finer technicalities of overthrowing a brutal dictator.

♪♫♪And the World would be a better place♪♫♪

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Well I find this hysterical as well

NOT

[RebelOne]

51. His dead body was in an ambulance, but I saw photos

of him being stuffed into a trunk of a car or a bed of a truck while he was still alive. So he was probably still alive before his body was put into the ambulance.

[lunatica]

25. It's not a surprising that he died violently. Dictators don't usually retire.

He would be alive today if he had taken sanctuary in another country.

[AngkorWot]

28. The only problem with Gaddafi's death is that it didn't happen earlier.

I have no doubt that the man who shot the last bullet into him had suffered grievously under his brutality, so it's not exactly unjust. Sure, in a civilized world there are supposed to be a bunch of impartial people to step between the victim and the man he's trying to get revenge against. Except in this case all of the people surrounding them were victims of Gaddafi as well.

And there's nobody to blame for that except Gaddafi. So he'll get no crocodile tears from me

"I shan't join in any celebration."

That's fine. Just don't pretend you're a better person for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. As a former humanitarian worker

Who went into plenty of shootouts I got a problem with violating neutrality. Don't expect you to understand why...this is why I will not join in the celebration. Go on and celebrate. Go on.

[AngkorWot]

33. oh lord

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Go on and laugh

I find this hysterical as well



NOT.

[malaise]

40. Well said

I will not join in the celebrations either

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. A connection some of these people are not getting

Since American ambulances lack that protection, it's easy to attack and bring down a medical tent almost properly marked in NYC. The cops ain't gonna respect that, and the ARC will not get involved. Makes me wonder where I left my red cross brassard and go join them down town.

I will with camera though.

But this is why explaining neutrality and the problem if kadaffi was executed.

I also as a matter of course don't celebrate deaths and much prefer a court. I get the anger in Libya, but in the states this blood thriftiness ain't make no sense.

[Joe Fields]

94. Damn, but aren't you the superior one today...

And nobody understands...

Something that YOU don't seem to understand. This was Qaddaffi. All bets were off. That is basically what the Magistrate and others seem to be saying.

I won't lose a wink of sleep tonight over how he died.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. That's the problem. Look at slippery slopes

[Obamanaut]

118. The superiority is not limited to 'today.' nt

[apocalypsehow]

142. Indeed: it's what one might call an ongoing phenomenon, and a curious one at that. n/t.

[countryjake]

144. So now, simply pointing out possible violation of Geneva Conventions is "superior" attitude here?

I guess I didn't realize that being part of a democratic message board no longer requires holding, at least, a semblance of humanitarian values.

Is that what you would call "Winning"?

Slippery slopes...hell, I see an abysmal chasm opening up, right here before my eyes!

[sabrina 1]

43. She is a better person for it. Sorry!

[PurityOfEssence]

62. Yet another "fact"

You "know" that the last guy to deliver the coup de grace or further desecrate the corpse had suffered mightily under him. Really? You know this for a fact?

For many Libyans, he provided health care, housing, education and stability. How do you know the last guy wasn't just an Islamist pissed off that Qaddafi stood in the way of theocracy? How do you know that this person wasn't just one of the many caught up in the frenzy?

There is an awful lot of certainty going around today, much of it based on nothing whatsoever.

Don't pretend you're a better person either for your unfounded guesses.

It goes both ways.

[AngkorWot]

65. LOL

"Don't pretend you're a better person either for your unfounded guesses."

The people who are happy with his death are better human beings than the people saddened by it.

[PurityOfEssence]

131. The ugly, hate-filled self-righteousness of the virtue interventionists is tiresome

Now we are a nation that uniformly lauds executive action to kill anyone who's inconvenient.

Fuck the courts. Fuck due process. Fuck anyone who differs from the corporatist mindset.

The sheer ugliness of those who rejoice in circumventing the law is breathtaking.

[Bok_Tukalo]

31. The Middle East proudly presents!

Eastern Europe: 1989
The Musical

See Tunisia bravely portray the part of Poland while Egypt fills in for Czechoslovakia.

Bulgaria, Hungary, and East Germany faithful reenactment by Yemen, Israel, and Oman will glue you to your seats!

In a late change, the part of Nicolae Ceausescu will be played by Moammar Gadhafi, substituting for Bashar al-Assad.

[tabasco]

42. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzz zzz z ... . .

:boring:

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Yup, go to sleep

This is just rip roaring hysterical, I know.

[Renew Deal]

44. NBC news reported that he was shot in the stomach before he was caught.

I don't know if that's true or not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. One of the statics shows a hole in the skull

If he was shot in the stomach it either kills you fast or slow

As I said in the op if he was executed inside the ambulance that is a serious problem. If he died from wounds, it happens in war.

[pintobean]

48. A shot in the head is a wound

He died from wounds of war either way. It doesn't matter. He's dead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Violating neutrality is rip roaringly and hysterically funny

Yup, it is hysterical, which is what an execution would be

Too complex I guess

[pintobean]

55. Where are you getting that he was shot in an ambulance?

And who in the fuck do you think is laughing?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Posteritatis]

113. Making stuff up about events like these to fit one's narrative is a time-honored tradition here. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Where did I make that up

I said IF. what part of a conditional modifier are people having an issue with? By Te way you too go and alert.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. The word IF is problematic

I will keep posting this.

[MH1]

59. Here's the thing: YOU WON'T EVER KNOW.

So, what is the point of this thread? To beat the drum that if any of us are ever part of a group of people that catch a brutal dictator,we shouldn't shoot him after we put him in an ambulance?

You say that if he died from battle wounds it's just war. The only way there's a problem is if he died of being executed after being loaded into an ambulance, right?

But, how the HELL will you ever know? And WHAT will you do if somehow you get the rock solid info that your fears are correct? WHAT are you going to do about it??

This is WHY 'choose your battles' is applicable here. And possibly why some up thread seem to think you're looking for a pat on the back for uber morality here.

There's nothing wrong with your values, but this thread seems extremely pointless to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Neutrality is pointless you are right

http://cruzrojasedecentral.blogspot.com/2011/07/imagenes-de-la-ambulancia-atacada.html

[Renew Deal]

78. You're right

I saw the pictures. He was executed.

[randome]

52. You will never, ever know

...how he died. In the fog of a violent rebellion? Good luck believing anything that is reported second or third-hand.

[PurityOfEssence]

68. Yet more certainty.

It must be great to have all the answers.

We may very well know precisely how things happened. How do you know that we won't? Maybe there's video.

Certainty is a curse.

[pinboy3niner]

53. Video, NTC source indicate Gaddafi shot in custody--Reuters

A spokesman for the National Transitional Council (NTC) in Benghazi, Jalal al-Galal, said a doctor who examined the fallen strongman in Misrata found he had been shot in the head and abdomen. Jerky video obtained from Sirte showed a man looking like Gaddafi, with distinctive long, curly hair, bloodied and staggering under blows from armed men, apparently NTC fighters.

The brief footage shows him being hauled by his hair from the hood of a truck. To the shouts of someone saying "Keep him alive", he disappears from view and gunshots are heard.

"They captured him alive and while he was being taken away, they beat him and then they killed him," one senior source in the NTC told Reuters. "He might have been resisting."

Driven in an ambulance from Sirte, his partially stripped body was delivered to a mosque in Misrata. Senior NTC official Abdel Majid Mlegta told Reuters that DNA tests were being conducted to confirm it was Gaddafi. He would be buried in Misrata, most likely by Friday according to Muslim custom.

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFL5E7LJ3ZE20111020?sp=true

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. You understand why it rose to concern

Of course the video ( showing pow) is also problematic. That is even more complex...

Damn conventions. That's why I can't celebrate even if kadaffi was most likely guilty of a slew of crimes.

:hi:

[pinboy3niner]

58. Of course

Respecting the neutrality of any and all humanitarian operations is important.

:hi:

[backscatter712]

57. Mussolini... Ceaucescu... Gaddafi.

Explain to me why the death of a butchering dictator is bad?

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. It's not the death but where

I prefer a trial but IF he was executed in an ambulance this raises neutrality issues, which is way too complex and alien for most Americans. Oh and for the record I much prefer a trial, but that's just me.

Is that a problem?

[backscatter712]

63. He may or may not have been executed in the ambulance.

He also may have just bled out from his wounds.

Who knows?

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. What part of IF are you having a problem comprehending?

[aquart]

141. Yup. We sing "Ding dong the witch is dead"

Not "Ding dong the witch is in jail awaiting trial."

When a being has ruled us by fear, incarceration won't do a thing for the fear. Napoleon was incarcerated on an island. He got out and killed a whole lot more people.

[Major Hogwash]

79. What's the problem with Khaddafi being killed? He didn't die of old age. So what?

He was responsible for the Lockerbie plane bombing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. It is possibly the where

If he was executed in a NEUTRAL vehicle that is a problem. I get it why AMERICANS don't get it...your local fire department rig is not neutral nor does it have certain Geneva convention protections.

I don't expect you to get it...sadly I don't.

[Major Hogwash]

89. I would have shot Khaddafi in the head myself if I would have had the opportunity.

If he was executed, so what?
Khadaffi didn't live by the Geneva Conventions so who cares if he was executed?
If he was executed by his own people, who cares?

Alcibiades didn't get a trial either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Those of us who worked under those

Principles do. And congrats on your blood thirsty ness.

[Major Hogwash]

93. I didn't like Idi Amin either.

And when you mention principles, you should remind yourself of what those brutal dictators did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Yup, and people died as humanitarian workers

Difference between you and me, I will not take a life, regardless of how bad the person is... But have worked for others.

Oh and your lack of respect...I don't have to wonder why NYPD wanted to take a medical tent down. It is in the air. That is the lack of respect.

It is not you...it is the country. Hopefully that will change too.

[Major Hogwash]

134. Khaddafi was responsible for killing 189 Americans aboard the Lockerbie flight.

So, when you use the word "respect", please try to keep it in context with the subject matter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. And...what is the saying I am looking for?

Oh yeah two wrongs...don't make a right.

But since you seem that blood thirsty and enjoy extra judicial executions you forgot the four service members in Berlin and the 100+ French In a plane as well.

Sorry for not sharing your blood thirsty ness. My world s not a movie where vigilantinism is ok... Batman is a fantasy and should never be confused with real life. Sorry if thse protections matter for babies in hospitals and war criminals after arrest in battlefield. There are other complications that also matter, but if neutrality s hard to grasp, these will be even harder...

Oh yes the witch is dead.

[Major Hogwash]

137. "Live long and prosper"?

Because you're from a different galaxy?

I didn't forget about the 4 soldiers who were killed in Berlin, by the way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Nah I am not from a different galaxy

I just had a different upbringing and life experience.

I actually had to live by those principles and I still do.

[NNN0LHI]

80. Tells a lot of dictators to liberalise and let their people live free or they might die too

The choice is theirs to make.

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. The problem is where

Neutrality is almost impossible to explain I guess.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

88. These "rebels" are not good guys.

The United States has not thrown in with them because they love freedom or democracy. It is the estimation of the White House that these "rebels," or whoever they are, will serve US strategic interests in the region better than Gaddafi, who was only recently brought back into the fold. They are not peaceful protestors; they are an armed faction in a civil war, and they have ties to al Qaeda.

Think of Reagan's support for the Nicaraguan "contras" in the 1980s. They were brutal militants who struck at so-called "soft targets" such as schools and hospitals. They did not support freedom or democracy (the Sandinista regime they opposed was democratically elected.) They served US strategic interests in the region. This is the same situation with Obama in Libya. They are brutal militants, and we should not be surprised that they attack ambulances.

[polly7]

96. Exactly.

And, I worry about all those who supported Qaddafi and who filled the streets early on, far outnumbering the rebel numbers. Will they and anyone who didn't support the rebels now be brutalized?

[ChadwickHenryWard]

105. I don't know, but I wouldn't be willing to rule it out.

It is a civil war after all. Perhaps the Gaddafi loyalists have amnesty on the horizon, and perhaps they have only brutal reprisals to look forward to. I will predict with some certitude continued violence. In short, I am far from convinced that American involvement has resulted in an improvement in the lives of the citizens of Libya. Of course, it would be disingenuous of me to suggest that I think that that was at any time a goal of US policymakers.

[Mimosa]

98. ^ Exactly ^

Libya's quasi socialist government, which seemed to me a bit like those of Cuba and Venezuela, was toppled by force. Khaddafi was threatening US strategic interests. Didn't he begin getting chummy with the Chinese, who want the world to quit using dollars for oil or something like that?

My Muslim friend is fearful the Islamists will end up governing Libya.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

108. The US intervention was purely pragmatic.

It was their estimation, along with the French and British, that an important foothold in the Mediterranean would be afforded by improved relations with Libya. Little consideration is given to the actual human cost of these regimes. US support for Mubarak, far past the point of prudence, recently illustrated that.

He was very close with stated enemies of the US, like Iran and Venezuela. He also had some attempted weapons deals with China that fell through late in the conflict. The news guys have a lot of Islamist presence, and quite a bit of organizational overlap with al Qaeda. I very much doubt things will get better for Libyans.

[Mimosa]

97. Khaddafi was murdered.

I borrowed this post and the links from a post by my MD friend who speaks Arabic.

Qaddafi has been murdered. Video at link.

He was captured, was in custody. But the savage Islamist troops savagely murdered him. This is NATO justice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIkck02qao&skipcontrinter=1

More -and truthful- coverage HERE. The man was in custody. He was captured. THEN he was shot in the head above the eyes.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/20111020111520869621.html

More video of Qaddafi's body being dragged and abused. Hard to suppress the truth when everybody can record events in real time using cellphones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLucdZBIUt8&feature=related&skipcontrinter=1

[quaker bill]

102. I see, if he had died during the strafing of the convoy

it would be ever so much better. Alternately, had he been tried and executed a few weeks from now, this would be ever so much better.

I just miss the fine points of these discussions. Apparently there is a decorum to killing people that should not be violated.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. If we descend into a hot civil war you might get it

Quite vividly. And actually there are protections accorded to prisoners of war, even former heads of state, in the battlefield.

There are reasons for that...perhaps you'd prefer a return to the times where prisoners were executed on the spot and senior officers were killed after some extensive torture and civilians were sold into slavery, the land salted or worst.

Yup, the burning of Carthage should be the model we all should follow.

No, I will not include a sarcasm thingy.

[quaker bill]

112. Actually I prefer peace.

Rules for killing do not impress me. Such rules are intended to make the survivors feel better about what they have done, they are of no benefit to the dead.

Killing "humanely" and in accordance with the "rules" is still killing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. And crawling into the bullets

To grab the injured out is done...been there done that. There is a reason why many Quakers served as medics. I prefer peace, but if war breaks out, as it does, I want to have a modicum of protections to help those who need that help.

[fascisthunter]

104. the celebrating reminds me of high school

knee-jerking with little thought. You raise good points.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. The celebration after bin Ladin

I got it, I really did...not that necessarily liked it. This...odd, Lockerbie or not.

It reveals an attitude I fear is all but healthy.

That said, good luck lybians. I hope they get what they fought for, and muamar was not a boy scout.

[fascisthunter]

107. That's really more of where my focus is... what lies ahead for them

hopefully they get someone who will represent the people and not part of the 1% again.

[tcaudilllg]

109. Say goodbye to peace.

It died with him.

[pinboy3niner]

117. Say 'Hello' to peace

The fall of Sirte and Gaddafi's death mean war is over for Libyans--finally.

[tcaudilllg]

123. Don't ever argue with me about these things.

And if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't be. Contest, but give reasons. I always have mine.

[pinboy3niner]

124. The value of peace seems a no-brainer

If you withhold "what you know," don't be surprised that we're not mind-readers.

[tcaudilllg]

128. If you were part of the MBTI enthusiast circuit, you would.

You ought to join.

But this looks to me like a classic Darth Vader scenario. I'm looking for someone in the NTC to build a new regime, probably as a thwart against religious hardliners. Another factor is that Saif just got caught up in the whole thing... he's relatively guiltless in it all. But the NTC will probably try to bring him in and he'll receive shelter. This I suspect will bring out an irrational side in the NTC and cause it to become paranoid and to crack down.

There is a tremendous level of narcissism surrounding these events... that cannot end well. Saif always believed in democracy, but when he saw it, he grew afraid of it because it behaved differently than he expected. He saw its darker side, the side of popular condemnation. I am reminded of Lelouch Lamperouge from Code Geass, after his ability is exposed, his sister is presumed dead, and he is alone. In that condition, there is opportunity for real personal change.

On the other hand, he could also become a regional bad boy, condemning the NTC as illegitimate because it didn't follow procedure (remember his "do it by the system" speech). And if he does, he will serve as a reminder to the NTC and the Libyan people of what awaits them if they fail to work together. He may serve as a ghost of his father and a reminder of his malice. Admittedly this seems like the most likely outcome because Saif is a positivist (the trait that begets conservative ethos in a nation) and positivists like to do things by the book. And because he's a consequentialist, he will insist that the book reign supreme. He's been compared to Corleone, but he's actually closer to Karzai: he won't listen to reason and will uphold the absolute reign of his values in dismissal of others' values. Not that that's a bad thing but... consequentialists take it to the extreme: consequentialists are narcissists at heart and believe the world should adopt the same attitudes as they towards everything.

[Obamanaut]

119. You buys your tickets, you takes your rides. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Anybody got the decoder ring?

[Obamanaut]

121. It is quite simple, actually. Living a life filled with violence, and perpetrating that

violence upon others, predisposes one to a violent death.

But you knew that.

You buys your tickets, you takes your rides.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Wow ! Amazing...

Missed the point by a whole galaxy! Not that this be shocking or shit.

I luuuvvveee me fans!!!!

[Bonobo]

125. Don't misquote Hunter Thompson. It's not cool, even done twice. nt

[Obamanaut]

139. Allrighty then, here are a couple more:

Fuck with the bull, get the horn.

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

[Cleita]

126. Where's CSI when you need them. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Not unimportant

But that's ok...it really don't matter and neutrality is too complex of a principle.

[aikoaiko]

132. Are you concerned that a medic put the bullet in his head or ...

...are you concerned that someone stopped the ambulance and shot Khadaffi in the ambulance?

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Later

Either way under the conventions it is murder.

[aikoaiko]

140. That's what I thought.

Based on your comments I googled neutrality and ed cross and read the following article:

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jncv.htm

Based on that article it seemed like neutrality would be an issue of the former (medic shooting Khadaffi) and not the later (medics being stopped and their patient being shot).

[Imagevision]

143. When's the freekin price of gas going to fall!