I am adding my voice to those who would rather have had a trial....

[WCGreen]

But then again, we are a much different country than Libya.

If we were in anyway culpable in the death of the Colonel, then we must be held accountable.

But to apply our sensibility, our historical perspective, to a country that has been brutalized for over 40 years...

It's not an easy black/white event, a lot of shading is involved.

One thing is that the Colonel came to and held on to power with a brutality that we can only imagine here in 21st century America.

[dkf]

1. I would have preferred it just because it wouldn't have been so brutal.

I think it would have shown the rebels in a better light too. But maybe they want to be seen as ruthless?

[WCGreen]

2. It is really hard for us to imagine what is going through the minds of

those Libyans who lived under his regime.

[Recursion]

3. How many Libyans would you ask to die in a riskier capture operation? (nt)

[WCGreen]

4. Again, I said what I want is different from what the Libyans wanted...

I thought I made that pretty clear.

[Bosonic]

5. Wasn't he already captured alive?

Then by some as-yet-to-be-officially-revealed action became dead whilst in custody??

[gratuitous]

6. Oh hush

You're just ruining everyone's necrogasm when you say things like that.

Besides, trials are notoriously messy and sometimes they don't achieve the desired result. And they take too long. And stuff.

[zappaman]

7. Also

Brutal dictators who torture, abuse, and executes their own citizens sometimes don't get trials when captured by those citizens.
Boo Hoo.

[gratuitous]

11. IF that's what actually happened

And we didn't "help" them dispatch a very untidy loose end whose trial could have proved to be quite embarrassing to certain folks.

[Capitalocracy]

16. haha necrogasm. nt

[Mimosa]

^ agree ^

:7 at 'necrogasm'.

[leftstreet]

23. lol

necrogasm

[PurityOfEssence]

27. "Necrogasm"; holy smokes, that's a genius amalgam

Kudos for that.

Once again, dead men tell no tales.

[joshcryer]

34. Yep, Fisk pointed out the trial would have revealed quite a bit about rendition...

...that the west is glad isn't getting aired.

I do not think there was a conspiracy by the rebels to kill him though, I believe it was spur of the moment.

[EFerrari]

15. How many LIbyans died in the razing of Sirte?

[JimDandy]

19. I'm not getting you...

Kadaffi was ALREADY captured--no more risk existed to anyone of dying. THEN he was executed, instead of being brought in and tried for any crimes he committed.

[emilyg]

20. What? America would care?

[hifiguy]

8. It was the Libyans' revolution

so I don't see it as being much different from the Italian partisans executing Mussolini or the Romanians executing Ceaucescu. It is their country and their responsibility.

[Curmudgeoness]

9. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Those people who killed him have lived with the brutality that was his regime. He died brutally. It is not a surprise that these people had rage.

[sabrina 1]

46. How do you know that? "Those people who killed him have

lived with the brutality that was his regime'. Where did you get that information? Not trying to challenge you, but I also believed that for a long time. Have you read anything about Libya under Gadaffi that did not come from Western media sources? I am ashamed to say, considering what we know about Western media, that I accepted that as fact, until I realized I had never actually researched the subject. What I found was an entirely different story to the one we have accepted without question.

That is not to say that in that region of the world there was not brutality. The US after all, sent some of their detainees to Libya to have them tortured. To Egypt also. However, aside from some of their brutal practices towards anyone perceived to be a threat to them, or sent to them by the US for torture, the Libyan people had the highest standard of living in Africa.

I was more than surprised at what I discovered. Seems there is really nothing we can take at face value that we get from the Western media. I will try not to forget that. I am afraid the Libyan people are going to be far worse off than they ever were now that the West has installed a PM already, an ex-pat with a dubious and mysterious past which may be connected to the CIA. I doubt he will be as generous towards them with their oil money, as Gadaffi was.

[lynne]

10. Not our call for a trial. Not our jurisdiction -

- and, if you've seen and heard any of the tape, you'll know that the bunch that got him aren't really the "let's take him to court and hope that justice is served" type.

Sounded like a pack of jackals. <insert shudder here>

[Bosonic]

12. The ICC thought it was their jurisdiction

But I'm not naive enough to believe that any on the ICC list would have ever made it to The Hague. A Libyan show trial would have been a courteous hat tip to NATO et al though.

[zappaman]

13. I am adding my voice to those who would rather have brussel sprouts...

be jellybeans.
Sometimes, you can't always get what you want I guess...

[Ikonoklast]

14. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

Sic Semper Tyrannus.

[SomethingFishy]

17. Really? You'd prefer to follow our laws?

Habius Corpus? Trial by jury? Innocent until proven guilty? First Amendment? Fourth Amendment? Warrants? Probable cause? Shit... how 20th century of you.

Get with the program man. Your government doesn't lie, so when they tell you someone deserves to die well goddammit he deserves to die. Oh and I'm sure that when the Republicans get power back they would never use this new "Star Chamber" and the apparently new legal assassinations to go after their political enemy's, that would be... unpatriotic.

[zappaman]

18. It isn't up to us whether he deserved to die

It was up to the people he brutalized, tortured and executed (yes, without trial) for decades and it seems they handled it in their own way.
Boo Hoo.

[SomethingFishy]

22. You are right it's not.

But I get the feeling the OP was talking about more than just Gaddafi...


Oh and are you boo hooing the loss of our laws or the death of Gaddafi? It's hard to tell on here, some people seem to be pleased to throw their basic rights out the window in order to feel good about killing some asshole.

[zappaman]

25. Tell me what laws "we" lost?

Be specific.

[SomethingFishy]

26. Ok. The right to a fair trial.

The right to a trial by a jury of your peers. The right to face your accusers in a court of law. These are some of the basic rights our country was founded on. You know, the right not to be dragged from your house in the middle of the night because someone accused you of speaking out against your government.

Wake up. In case you haven't noticed the government can label you a terrorist tomorrow and then kill you at it's discretion. And there's not a fucking thing you can do about it. They even have a secret council to decide your fate for you. The only evidence they need to show is their word.
But hey, I'm sure you feel... "secure" :rofl:

[zappaman]

28. "we" lost that?

:rofl:

[WCGreen]

31. first of all, our laws do not take precedence in any foreign land...

That was my main point.

The second was that how can we truly understand what went on in Libya and how that effected the people who are Libyans.

In a just world, according to the so-called American Way, a trial of some sort should have been held.

However, the people who were under the foot of this colonel for life wanted revenge, a revenge so deep that none of us can truly understand, the revenge a father might have of his daughter being raped....

[EFerrari]

36. You are romanticizing a bit here.

People suffer at the hands of criminals, suffer horribly, every day. They don't therefore constitute mobs and rip their attackers apart. Not resorting to mob violence is one thing that is supposed to set us apart from wild dogs.

[WCGreen]

37. In this country....

Libya is not like the US which, was my original point.

[Bake]

21. By the way, it's "habeas"

Just sayin'.

:hi:

Bake

[SomethingFishy]

24. Hmmm spell check didn't catch it...

and it still doesn't change my point. We have given up our basic rights in order to be the big tough guy on the block. It's working out real well so far. :eyes:

[Rex]

29. I will always agree with that statement.

I would like to see supposed civilized nations put their 'money where their mouth goes' and hold trials when it is an option. I, however, do not feel sorry for a dead dictator. They asked for it, imo.

[EFerrari]

30. The other bit that people don't seem to be considering

is that the use of execution by out of control mob doesn't speak well for the NTC.

[Major Hogwash]

32. That doesn't bother me one whit.

Anyone who has been studying the situation in Libya knew it was going to come to this kind of an end.
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
So for someone to act like it was going to end differently, it just seems out of touch with the reality of what was going on in the chaos of Libya for the last 7 months or so.

[EFerrari]

35. Nope. That's ass backward.

This was going to happen not because of what has been happening in Libya but because this is what the Western powers wanted to happen. Hillarly literally announced it as the preferred outcome on her visit to Tripoli a day or so ago.

You are out of touch if you lay the blame for this on Libya.

[Major Hogwash]

38. Did you watch Jon Stewart tonight?

Seriously, the only ones whining about Khaddafi being killed were John Bolton, John McCain, Charles Grassley, and Marco Rubio.

[Exilednight]

44. I wouldn't go around shouting from the rooftops that you get your news from a show based on satire.

There's a reason they call they satire. Anyone who takes Stewart as serious news needs to have their head examined. even Stewart will tell you that. In fact, Stewart killed a complete show, and Tucker Carlson's career, by explaining why no one should take what Stewart does seriously.

[Major Hogwash]

53. Somebody is bound to notice that you're whining about a brutal dictator being killed righteously.

So, crawl back under that slimy rock because you're screeching is abhorrent to those of us who like the sound of freedom.

[EFerrari]

55. Those of you who like the sound of "freedom" war crimes. nt

[Exilednight]

57. So the sound of freedom sounds like someones skull being blown in by a 9mm firearm. And this

entire time I believed freedom and democracy was based on rule of law and voting. Silly me.

[Major Hogwash]

58. We used cap and ball muskets during our revolution.

60 mm balls.

Fathom that, Captain Howdy.

[Exilednight]

59. True, but we didn't kill King George. BTW, your name suits you. n/t

[EFerrari]

54. And the UN Human Rights office.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5033445&mesg_id=5033445

[joshcryer]

33. When he was reported "caught alive" I was elated, when "killed" I was numb.

Or just, didn't feel anything. Really disappointing in the fighters, but I do not blame them. I do not generalize about them as a people. Tyrants get strung up. It's historical precedent. There's no country that hasn't had at least one bad guy strung up by the masses.

[whatchamacallit]

39. The rebels had a golden opportunity to exemplify what they supposedly fought for

They pissed it away.

[joshcryer]

40. No, they *have* a golden opportunity to exemplify what they *did* fight for.

And they will. Mark my words.

[whatchamacallit]

42. Sure man

whatever you say...

[Exilednight]

45. Yep, I agree. n/t

[DCBob]

41. His quick brutal ending I think will help the Libyans put closer to the Qaddafi era

I think someone like this does not deserve the rights of other human beings.. he lost those rights by his brutal actions against scores of innocent people during the past 40 years.

[canetoad]

43. Yeah, well he's dead

And you have decided to apply shades of grey far too late to be helpful.

It's ingenious to crow about 'how different' the USA is to Libya. You talk about brutalisation as if you had first hand knowledge of it's effects and consequences.

Much as I abhor violence, in this case, the outcome was the right one. It was the ONLY outcome possible, given the circumstances. Please stop the insincere self-flagellation over an outcome that was pre-determined.

[WCGreen]

48. Yea, I know from brutality.

My old man use to beat the shit out of my mom on a regular basis.

I worked in Battered Women's shelters where I saw the American way of brutality, beat the shit out of your wife. or partner, or significant other...

You don't know me so how can you possibly pass judgment on me...

[canetoad]

49. Maybe you'd like to start that reply again

Keeping in mind the OP was about Gadaffi, not about your old man, your childhood, your work or the travails you have faced. My life has been no bed of roses either.

It's a bit extreme to accuse me passing judgement on you when all I did was respond to your OP.

What I said stands. I doubt that neither you nor I have lived through a forty year dictatorship and the uprising that overthrew the despot. Until you have, you are in no position to judge how people brought to the very edge of their wits and lives would react.

If you need to talk, PM me, I'm a good, non-judgemental listener... as long as it goes both ways.

[WCGreen]

51. Brutality is brutality and that is all I have to say about that...

[canetoad]

52. No one is arguing that brutality isn't brutality

But that's a shallow, self-interested dismissal of a problem bigger than the childhoods of you and I.

How firmly do you believe that humans should have freedom and autonomy? This cannot be stressed enought; neither you nor I have ever lived in a country where our freedoms have been curtailed under punishment of death or our personal autonomy not respected within the laws of our land.

Revolutions are driven by ideology and principles but they are effected, carried out, by the foot soldiers on the ground. Sometimes, despite our anti-violence position, the collective will of the people, the emotion of the prospect of freedom from tyranny, makes mobs of otherwise rational people.

Libya was NEVER goint to result in a civilised western trial of Gaddafi. No matter what your preferences are, that particular outcome was nullified when Gaddafi chose to fight his own people.

It's your choice, and you can stick with thought terminating cliches like 'Brutality is brutality' but you're a deeper thinking person that that and need to look at the bigger picture.I hope you will take time to respond thoughtfully.

[quaker bill]

47. We came with our aircraft and blew up his army.

He was alive because he had an army to keep him safe. Simple enough?

[B Calm]

50. Did he give all the people he murdered a trial? It was war and he was

the enemy. . .

[EFerrari]

56. When you kill someone in your custody, that is called murder.

It's murder when Gaddafi did it and it's still murder when the NTC does it. In fact, the Human Rights Watch Emergency Director reported on Amy's show today that after that bit of savagery was over and the shooting stopped, there were 95 bodies out on the road in Sirte.

The killing in Libya isn't going to stop any time soon even though NATO got what it wanted.