I'm sick of people hiding behind the title of "Libertarian" !!...

[Locut0s]

"So where do your politics fall. Right or left?"

"Oh I hate labels. I refuse to be labelled a Democrat or a Republican, Left or Right. IMO they all have their own agendas and anyone who signs on to a whole package just isn't thinking for themselves"

OKAYYYyy sounds good on the surface, but I already have that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach.

"Ok so what are your values and beliefs?"

..... INSERT LONG OR SHORT DIATRIBE HERE....

Okay. So... Nice to hear you aren't ANTI gay. Nice to hear you aren't ANTI drug. Nice to hear you aren't ANTI discrimination. BUT, you want to eliminate all taxes, destroy the entire social welfare system, destroy the healthcare system (either the single payer system we have here in Canada, or the sad state of affairs you guys in the states have but that still offers SOME care), you want to be able to take your money and go live up on Mt Olympus with absolutely NO oversight, repercussions, or moral civic duties.

I'm sorry but you are the very WORST of the right wing. Don't fucking start with this Libertarian shit!!! And you know what? To get your Utopian "Libertarian" ideal you are MORE THAN FUCKING WILLING to vote for the guy who is ALSO foaming at the mouth against the gays, the drugs, the immigrants, and you'll just conveniently look the other way on those topics.

[CountAllVotes]

1. I'm sick of people hiding behind the title of "Independent" !

Same frosting different cake IMO.

Hang in there and don't get so angry by a label.

It is what is inside of the person and the reality of who they really are that matters IMO.

:dem:

[Locut0s]

3. With the multiparty system we have we don't have many who labele themselves that, but I get...

what you mean. Not that we REALLY have much of a multiparty system but enough of one that there aren't many real "Independents" out there.

[CountAllVotes]

5. most of these "independents"

are in fact Republicans in disguise IMO.

Their party is about dead and gone. This was a fact after Katrina. Now we see a very sad group of individuals that are running for President of the United States. It is a total disgrace IMO.

They hate who they've become and now call themselves conveniently "independents" and in some cases "libertarians" whatever that means.

:think:

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. I'm no party, which is sometimes mistaken for an independent.

Until I see the Dems clean up their local corruption problems, I can't fully commit.

[roguevalley]

30. libertarian = selfish, indifferent, I got mine fuck you, cold hearted

jackass

[TalkingDog]

43. Libertarian actually = individual liberty as the basic moral principle of society

Philosopher Roderick T. Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#Left-libertarianism_and_libertarian_socialism

Left-libertarianism is the group of libertarian political philosophies which have an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, holding that it is not legitimate for someone to claim private ownership of such resources to the detriment of others.
Libertarian socialism is a group of political philosophies that promote a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society without private property in the means of production. The two terms are often used interchangeably.

Libertarian socialism is opposed to all coercive forms of social organization, and promotes free association in place of government and opposes what it sees as the coercive social relations of capitalism, such as wage labor. The term libertarian socialism is used by some socialists to differentiate their philosophy from state socialism or by some as a synonym for left anarchism. Adherents of libertarian socialism assert that a society based on freedom and equality can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite. Libertarian socialism also constitutes a tendency of thought that promotes the identification, criticism and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of life. Accordingly, libertarian socialists believe that "the exercise of power in any institutionalized form—whether economic, political, religious, or sexual—brutalizes both the wielder of power and the one over whom it is exercised". Libertarian socialists generally place their hopes in decentralized means of direct democracy such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions and workers' councils




Liberal Libertarians include the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandala and Me.

Got a problem with any of the above?

[Zoeisright]

44. Yes.

That's a complete and utter failure unless you're living alone in the woods. It's not practical in today's society.

And it's foaming-at-the-mouth rabidly anti-society.

What utter bullshit.

[TalkingDog]

45. Did you actually read the post? Seriously. You think Nelson Mandela was anti-society?

Give me a fucking break.

A favor: if you don't want to engage in civil discussion about a topic when the respondent is actually making an attempt, don't bother them with your hyperbolic asshattery....

[Jakes Progress]

76. Please stop insulting Nelson Mandela.

His life was lived for other people. Just because some toy graph someone did without knowing him tried to label him as a selfish loser doesn't make him one. If you go to jail to free others, you are not a libertarian.

If you support Social Security, you are not a libertarian. if you support Medicare, you are not a libertarian. If you support free public education, you are not a libertarian.

I think your problem may just be that you don't know what a libertarian is.

[roguevalley]

47. got a problem with Rand and Ron Paul? Each philosophy has its

a-holes and so does yours. And frankly, like religion, the ones with brains, etc don't speak up loud enough. ALl I see are Paulites. Yeah, I have a problem with Libertarianism. Lib libertarians like moderate religious need to be louder.

[TalkingDog]

53. I have a problem with people who can't comprehend that political philosophy is not a religion.

A religion requires faith. Political philosophy, considered honestly, requires action. (i.e. at some point walking the walk) and can never be a matter of faith.

I don't have a problem with anybody finding fault with assholes. On the other hand, I do have a problem with people being assholes whilst pointing out that flaw in others.

Do I have a problem with Rand and Ron Paul? Personally speaking, Rand Paul is an idiot. His political stances have no rhyme or reason that I can discern, especially as far as Libertarianism goes.

Ron Paul has his moments. End the War. Legalize Marijuana. But he is also anti-abortion, which is a position I can't fathom, if he is Libertarian.

As for more Liberal Libertarians speaking out, I think you see a whole lot of them speaking out in OWS: collectives of people who think that corporate and government rule needs to be scaled back.

And as soon as I read through this thread I developed a sneaking suspicion that this sudden surge against anything far left has a lot to do with sock puppetry sowing dissent against people who may be Liberal and Libertarian or even Progressives.

[Ikonoklast]

78. Enlighten me as to how your vision of society would function.

I need a good laugh this morning.

[Jakes Progress]

67. So how often did you and Nelson have lunch?

How typical of a libertarian argument. You list a lot of high minded stuff - none of which is part of what libertarians actually live by - and declare yourself bosom buddies with the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandala. I don't recall either of those men acting like the self-centered set of broken egos down at the pub who prate about being libertarians so they don't have to behave like anyone else does - you know because they are so much superior. They don't like unions. They don't like Obama. They don't like social security. But three of them are on unemployment right now. Sad little people.

[provis99]

2. a libertarian is just a reactionary who wants to smoke weed.

[sadbear]

26. They also love their guns and hate their taxes

And believe the myth that poor people are lazy. Strangely enough, a lot of them are atheists who put faith in churches and other religious organizations to provide charity for everyone once the safety net has been destroyed.

[bhikkhu]

28. And they believe that good government doesn't exist

and that good policies are impossible. Its absurd for anyone involved in government or a political party...but basically this has been a mantra of the repugs since I can remember.

If you can convince people that there is no such thing as good government, you can lie them into plenty of self-destructive positions.

[TalkingDog]

54. Wrong. See post above. Liberal Libertarians don't necessarily hate taxes

And I don't love my guns any more than I love my cars. They are tools.

You want to talk about mindless bigotry... jeeze, look in the mirror.

[Syrinx]

4. I call myself a libertarian socialist

I'm don't equate "freedom" as "freedom from paying taxes." Taxes are the price of civilization.

I think people should have maximum freedom, or liberty, in their personal lives.

If you want to smoke reefer, fine with me. If you want to marry a person of the same gender? Fine by me.

I'm for liberty. As far as I'm concerned, you can do anything you want to, as long as it doesn't interfere with another person's liberty. You can watch dirty movies on tv. You can listen to truly disturbing Slayer songs all day long. You can patronize a prostitute, or be a prostitute.

But if you make a significant income, you need to pay a bit of it, in order to pay for a civilization.

There are costs in enforcing liberty. And civilization.

People need to eat. People need shelter and clothing.

It seems so obvious to me, the solution, I mean.

But some people are just so selfish.

Yes, I'm a libertarian. But I'm also a socialist.

[Orrex]

7. You should pick a different label

If you're glomming onto the "small l libertarian" title, you'll associate yourself with the jerk Libertarians that everyone knows about.

[krabigirl]

50. Why? Who cares?

[Orrex]

57. Heck, if someone wants to be associated with a toxic and regressive political party, so be it.

That's their business.

[TalkingDog]

55. You should stop being so narrow minded.

I think that's an awkward position for a "liberal" to take.

[Orrex]

56. Right. I'm narrow minded because Libertarians are assholes

Got it.

[Romulox]

62. Or maybe you should educate yourself on the historical usage of terms.

:shrug:

[Orrex]

73. Nope, that's not it.

I know plenty about the rhetorical usage of terms, thanks, but I'm also not naive enough to believe that one person's quaint usage of a term is enough to offset the connotation of term once it's been coopted by a loudmouthed political party.

[Locut0s]

8. Unfortunately like with so much else the right has hijacked the term and it now usually means...

What I posted in the OP. BUT I fully support this small "i" libertarianism 1000%!

[Odin2005]

33. I'm a Libertarian Socialist, too.

I am sickened that the "Libertarian" label has been taken up by Movement Conservatives that smoke pot.

[krabigirl]

51. This exactly.

[Orrex]

6. There is no such thing as a right-leaning Libertarian who isn't an asshole

True fact.

[pintobean]

10. No, that's your opinion.

I know many of them and very few are assholes.

[Orrex]

17. Nope. True fact.

Either:

They aren't right-leaning Libertarians
or
You don't really know them

True fact.


I should clarify that I mean political assholes, by the way; I've known quite a few self-professed Libertarians who are terrific people but absolute fuck-heads when it comes to matters of politics.

[sadbear]

24. In Texas, that's 100% true.

[Raksha]

42. Agree with you. "I've got mine and screw you"

makes a person an asshole by definition. I know one such Libertarian asshole who thinks he can hide his assholery behind a facade of civility and a good vocabulary (he's a retired professor; I believe a history professor) but I'm not taken in. This morning I told somebody on the discussion board we both frequent that I react to Randroid libertarianism as though I'm physically allergic to it. I have never read any of Ayn Rand's books and I don't intend to either. Just interacting with her fan club for a minute or less is more than I can tolerate.

[sendero]

9. An entire philosophy. based on myths..

... rather like communism. The libertarian myth is that of John Galt, the superman who is responsible for everything that is good that happens.

Problem is that John Galt is a ridiculous myth. There are no John Galts. There are only Jamie Dimons, Lloyd Blankfiens, Angelo Mozilos and other assorted miscreants that rise to the top.

In America they like to talk about "the smartest guy in the room". But those guys have no chance against "the biggest sociopath in the room".

[Locut0s]

11. We are at the point where the "sociopath in the room" is actually openly respected though :-( nt

nt

[sendero]

12. By some perhaps..

.. but not by most.

[redqueen]

19. I hope you're right. (nt)

[Odin2005]

34. The smart sociopaths are the most dangerous, they are the ones that fill the corporate boardrooms.

The dumb sociopaths end up rotting in prison, the smart ones make sure that they are above the law.

[sandyshoes17]

13. After Bush alot of repubs called themselves independent

when in public my brother inlaw will say he's an Independent. If you heard him speak for 2 mins you would know he is a Rush listening far right winger. Last time he stated he was an Ind. I called him on it, and asked him when was the last time he voted for a Dem. I've known him for 25 yrs. I said you were for Reagan, Bush, Bush II, and cried when McCain lost. I would say your a Republican whose embarrassed to say so.

[Kolesar]

14. Ask them if they voted for Bush...

..twice, no less.
With ya' :thumbsup:

[walerosco]

15. I know some libertarians

and the reason they dont want to be labeled as democrats or republicans is because they hate the 2 parties just about the same. For instance it easy to talk a couple of them into voting for Obama instead of not voting just by telling them that he was anti war and for state rights on drugs, when normally you would have expected to vote for McCain.

One more thing, why describe a libertarain society as utopia? yes, less military wars, less police state would be nice and all but even the ardent followers dont believe it will make for a utopia society. I hate it when conservatives chastise our positions as socialist utopia and I hate seeing you do the same thing.

[Cosmocat]

16. Not even close ...

They don't hate the two parties just about the same.

If I have met 100 "libertarians" I have never met a single one who had the first good thing to say about democrats or vote for a D. ALmost to a person, they vote straight R, when they are not voting for Ron Paul, who also happens to be a ... repubican ...

the only extent that they "hate" the republican party is that isn't far right enough for them.

[NNN0LHI]

22. All the libertarians around here yank out their Ron Paul signs and but up ones for the GOP nominee

Soon as the GOP primary is over they all all do it.

Any idea why they do that?

Don

[redqueen]

18. They're either clueless

or they're simply republicans who want drugs legalized.

Mostly just clueless people in my experience.

This explains why.
http://robotics.caltech.edu/~mason/ramblings/uncleSam.html

[Romulox]

21. I'll just leave this here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_libertarianism

[Sheepshank]

23. Last line says it all

"....Don't fucking start with this Libertarian shit!!! And you know what? To get your Utopian "Libertarian" ideal you are MORE THAN FUCKING WILLING to vote for the guy who is ALSO foaming at the mouth against the gays, the drugs, the immigrants, and you'll just conveniently look the other way on those topics."


Anyone that would deliberatly and wontonly and by design, look the other way, no ENABLE corporate America to rape and pillage this planet and it's people unchecked, is not meant to survive in decent society. There are other (read hermit)lifestyles more suited to a total disregard of ones fellow mankind.

[redqueen]

59. THIS! (nt)

[OwnedByFerrets]

25. Right On!

[Nye Bevan]

27. There are genuine libertarians.

Take "The Economist" magazine. While their economic views do not agree with most of DU, they are very socially liberal (strongly pro-gay marriage, for example). And they are politically independent. They endorsed Obama in 2008, Kerry in 2004, Bush in 2000, Dole in 1996, Clinton in 1992 and "could recommend neither" in 1988 (Bush Sr. vs Dukakis).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. The Economist's real hobbyhorse is "free" trade

I used to subscribe, because they are great for news about obscure countries, which proved priceless when I had to do a lot of translations about the East Asian currency crisis of 1997. (If the name of a government minister of Thailand is spelled in katakana--Japanese phonetic script--how do you transcribe it into English? The Economist provided detailed articles on the currency crisis, which contained the names of all the East Asian government officials and bank presidents I needed.)

However, I got really tired of their "free" trade shtick, and apparently, some other readers did, too. Whenever a country had economic problems, the answer was "free" trade. If they already had "free" trade, then they didn't have enough of it. If the "free" trade was causing problems, it was because they still had a couple of tiny restrictions on "free" trade.

They had an article about Cuba, for example, saying that, yes, they had the best education and health care in the region, but they really needed "free" trade, and then they'd be prosperous. (Never mind the U.S. embargo, which penalizes even foreign companies that trade with Cuba...)

They got back letters saying, "You mean 'prosperous' like Jamaica and Haiti?"

Just before my subscription ran out, they had a whole special issue on "free" trade.

The lead article was about how "free" trade was good for whatever ails a country. They then admitted that there were serious problems (for example, "free" trade in currencies caused the East Asian economic crisis of 1997) but said that these problems would be solved when all countries were democratic and had benevolent governments.

In other words, when pigs fly. These guys (and I've heard that they're mostly twentysomething economics grads from British universities) were in fantasyland.

The subscription renewal was really expensive, and I let it lapse.

[Odin2005]

35. Not Fantasyland, the official ideology of the Ruling Class is what it is.

"Free Trade" and "Neo-Liberalism" is the Ruling Ideology of the elites which they use to justify exploitation of the working class. it is the "Divine Right of Kings" of our time.

[JoeyT]

31. Meh. I identify as an independent,

because I have to vote to the right to vote for Democrats. So I'm certainly not going to go any further to the right of them.

With libertarians it mostly depends on which one you're dealing with, like most every other party. As frequently as I disagree with guys like Radley Balko* on economics, he's far far to the left of the Democratic party on anything social, justice, or civil liberties related. And often left of them on fiscal issues, which is baffling. His most frequent gripe is how screwed up the justice system is and how often innocent people are jailed. IIRC he also endorsed Obama in 2008.

*:Who I'm using as an example because he's the one I'm most familiar with.

TLDR version: While I think libertarians are frequently wrong, they're not Republicans. Many are closer to liberals than they are to Republicans.

[Odin2005]

36. You are confusing Libertarians and wing-nuts that CALL themselves "Libertarians".

The later are far more numerous and are not Libertarians at all, they are authoritarian Movement Conservatives who use the Libertarian label as a way to wash off the stench of Bushy Boy.

[Odin2005]

32. Most people that call themselves "Libertarians" are really Movement Conservative nuts...

...Who want to avoid the Republican label because of Chimpy. They are like the people who voted for Nixon, then denied ever voting for him after he resigned.

True, consistent Libertarians are few and far between, and Ron Paul is not one of them.

[Wounded Bear]

37. I consider "Libertarians" to be Republicans on steroids....

:)

And most "Independents" I know seem to vote pretty far right, while claiming to be holding their nose because all of the R's they vote for are too "liberal."

Self awareness is not a conservative strong suit.

[graywarrior]

38. Hooray! I love this thread!

[ThoughtCriminal]

39. Ask who they voted for in the past 3 Presidential Elections

They're Republicans and they would gladly use the Constitution for toilet paper in exchange for a small tax cut and the "Right" to pollute, harass and discriminate.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. There is the big-L Libertarian party, there are economic libertarians and left-libertarians.

Waving the word "libertarian" around like it means the same thing in every context, AND like it's doggy doo on a stick, isn't exactly helpful.

And despite the rabid antipathy with which these threads are greeted, I still don't understand how a Republican who wants to cut taxes and government and is pro-gay rights and drug legalization is somehow supposed to be WORSE than a Republican who wants to cut taxes and government and wants to put gays and drug users in prison.

They're fucked up, but at least they're right on one or two things. The only thing I can figure is that authoritarians on "our" side find something deeply, subtly threatening about the philosophy beyond the part about eliminating taxes and government services. :shrug:

[DonCoquixote]

41. this says it all

http://www.leftycartoons.com/the-24-types-of-libertarian/

[guitar man]

46. I've started referring to them

...as the "Bandar-log". They act just as Kipling described them ;)

[JVS]

48. Libertarians are just Republicans who don't love Jesus.

[krabigirl]

49. I consider myself a left libertarian, sorry if it bothers you.

I can assure you that I don't hate gays or the poor. I am fine with medicare, social security etc, as I think the govt should care for people in need. I just don't like the attacks on our civil liberties and such, by this and the last admin.

[ErikJ]

52. Its Just a way to recruit youth into Corporate Conservatism

You say legalize drugs and prostitution and end wars and its like drawing bees to honey.
Then when they get indoctrinated into the REAL meaning of Libertarianism its too late, theyre Cons for the rest of life.
I've seen it in friends. Its the same with any cult, Scientology, Mormonism etc.

[DefenseLawyer]

58. A Libertarian is generally one of two things: a conservative who smokes weed or a gun nut

One of my former law partners was heavily involved with the Libertarian Party (he was in the first camp). What I observed was that those that were drawn to it almost always fell into one of those two camps. Rarely did anyone fall into both camps, and they formed a rather odd coalition; one group never quite fully embracing the other.

[Romulox]

60. The ignorance displayed on this thread is stunning. "Civil libertarian/left libertarians" exist.

:hi:

[DefenseLawyer]

63. A "civil libertarian" is a person that defends "civil liberties"

a la the American Civil Liberties Union. It's not really a political platform. People of diverse political viewpoints are civil libertarians. From Bob Barr to John Dean to Bill Kuntsler.

[Romulox]

66. OK. How does that square with the undifferentiated invective on this thread

Or the advice, above, that civil libertarians/left libertarians should change their monikers, lest people become confused? :silly:

[DefenseLawyer]

68. I have no idea what a "left libertarian" is.

Libertarian politics at their core are certainly antithetical to what most of us think of as "the left". I think because the word "libertarian" is used in two contexts, one as an anti-government political philosophy and the other simply a person that values civil liberties, that may be where the confusion lies.

[Romulox]

69. Try google. First hit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

I'm not sure what kind of lecture can proceed when you admit you're not familiar with the terms being used.

[DefenseLawyer]

70. People can call themselves whatever they want

and then they can write wikipedia articles about it. Thanks. I'm enlightened. Or something.

[Romulox]

71. Right. And people can rant about a topic they don't know much about, if they want. nt

[DefenseLawyer]

72. I wasn't ranting. Just pointing out that "civil libertarian" isn't a political party

or even a political philosophy.

[Locut0s]

77. OP replying here. I would NEVER argue otherwise. I was just making a point...

Left leaning libertarians are far rarer and I salute your kind. But BY FAR the most common type of self described libertarian is the type I mention in the OP. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.

[Codeine]

61. Yep; conservatives who smoke weed are still conservatives, and they still suck ass. nt

[Romulox]

64. And "liberals" who support the War on Drugs aren't so hot, either.

:shrug:

[Codeine]

65. Agreed. nt

[redqueen]

74. I was just perusing the Libertarian Party platform

and this caught my eye.

"Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners."

I'd love to see them hand the Black Hills and other properties back to their rightful "owners".

[HughBeaumont]

75. It'd be nice if they just stuck to "It's none of my business" . . .

. . . but then bring up economics and most of them turn into Eric Bolling or Rick Santelli or any other Faux/CNBC anchor.

Left leaning libertarians do exist. Just funny how I've never encountered an IRL example of one.