When Hitler killed himself in his bunker

[Capitalocracy]

do you think he was trying to get out of being executed? Or was it the trial he couldn't stand?

Edit to add what I think is an important point here: Hitler is not the only war criminal who killed himself rather than face a trial. Many examples exist of war criminals killing themselves in custody, not being tortured in any way, just unable to face anyone challenging their ideology and evil acts without fear of being silenced through violence. Execution was the worst that could happen after the trial, but they preferred to kill themselves, because for them a trial was a fate worse than death, because it represents an opportunity to really damage their ideology. That's why trials are so important.

[AngkorWot]

1. He was being bullied by American Imperialism.

Hitler was the FDR of Nazi Germany.

[whathehell]

6. You are kidding, right?

Hitler was the being "bullied"?

Yes, he pulled Germany out of its depression,

but that's where the FDR comparison stops.:eyes:

[Hosnon]

29. God I hope so.

That might be the worst post ever made on this website.

[dionysus]

69. a few days ago a poster, in all seriousness, called Ghadaffi the FRD of the middle east. he's

mocking that post...

[AverageJoe90]

30. Are you fucking joking, buddy?

I'm sorry, but you are a complete moron if you really believe that. F.D.R. was a genuine progressive and good leader, if perhaps with a few flaws........Hitler, on the other hand, was an ally of the bankers and crooked industrialists who propped him up.

[Leftist Agitator]

33. 10/10.

That is some grade A trolling. I salute you!

[sendero]

43. People are getting punked..

.. and they still don't get it.

[MADem]

55. I took that guy's post about Hitler/FDR as the ultimate goof.

Sort of like how some here are trying to suggest that the murdering Qaddafi is somehow a saint who didn't deserve his fate at the hands of those who knew him best (which, most people don't realize, was NOT "us"--despite the fact that the kid w/his golden gun was wearing a NY Yankees "costume" hat).

[snooper2]

72. hilarious isn't it...

I see Bachmann eyes all around me :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Capitalocracy]

36. Uh...

Not even sure what's going on over here.

[demosincebirth]

40. deleted

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demosincebirth]

42. They should have a separate forum for people who think like you. (

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KittyWampus]

50. Don't worry, I got the parody and think it's funny as heck.

[Swede]

58. Now now.

:spank:

[ellisonz]

62. Well played, sir.

;)

[LanternWaste]

68. It would appear crappy analogies used indirectly...

It would appear crappy analogies used indirectly to imply a premise as part and parcel of some very passive-aggressive posturing isn't your strong suit.

[tblue]

2. His Reich was toast. No way to clean up that mess

and go on after he had spent the last x number of years telling everyone about the 1000 years. Sorta kinda didn't work out as planned.

He knew he would face execution and he was a chickenshit bully so yeah, probably that's why he did it. But who knows?

[cemaphonic]

8. He was also pretty invested in the whole Wagnerian Gotterdammurung notion.

He left orders for Speer and the other leaders that would have left Germany even more in ruins than it already was. Sort of an "if I can't have it, no one can" mentality.

[dogknob]

3. He knew the Russians were going to get him first...

... and that would have made Kdaffy's end look like a goodbye party. That's why Goebbels killed his entire family, too.

[Kaleva]

53. Hitler had ample opportunity to be captured by the Western Allies.

But he refused to vacate Berlin.

[tabasco]

4. The poor dictator was afraid he wouldn't get due process!!

So he martyred himself!!

[apocalypsehow]

5. Snap! Haaahaaaaaa

:thumbsup: :rofl:

[gratuitous]

9. If he had been taken by the Soviets, as was likely

He wouldn't have gotten anything resembling due process. I'm so old, I remember when the United States used to be the world's leading practitioner and advocate for the rule of law against kangaroo courts and show trials. Now? We're all about death to anyone deemed unfit to live, celebrating violent murder so that we can be safe from terrorism. Citizen, non-citizen, adult, child, it makes no difference, in direct contravention of our own Constitution and treaty obligations.

Whoops, I mean, "lol, you're so clever!"

[JVS]

12. Stalin's orders were to take him alive.

[bluestate10]

64. So that Stalin could personally cut his balls off. nt

[whathehell]

7. Speculating about Hitler at that point, I'd say it's hard to stay within parameters of rationality.

He was a fanatic, and, by many accounts, insane.

[Capitalocracy]

11. Well, I think running a regime that does what they did

pretty much automatically qualifies you as "insane", but I think it's not too far-fetched to believe that part of the reason he killed himself rather than face a trial was likely because at least a part of him knew his ideology wouldn't stand up to scrutiny in a setting where he was unable to murder his detractors.

And Hitler is only one example of war criminals who kill themselves rather than face trial.

[Xithras]

45. He had late stage syphilis and was addicted to meth.

Pile that on top of the fact that he likely had mental issues and that his entire world was disintegrating around him, and it goes without saying that he probably wasn't thinking too clearly at the end.

I've always thought that his suicide was an act of defiance. He refused to concede defeat even while his nation was being obliterated, and when he finally realized that Germany was beaten, he killed himself to deny the Allies one final victory.

[JVS]

10. He knew Stalin was going to put him on trial. Stalin loved trials.

[apocalypsehow]

14. Yep. And Hitler was said to have expressed concern that after the trial he'd be put on display in a

glass cage and paraded through the streets of Moscow in chains. I think his fears were overstated: Stalin would probably just have had him shot.

[RZM]

32. I've read that too

He didn't want to be made into a spectacle.

I don't think Stalin would have shot him right away either. Probably he would have been used for intelligence purposes and then as a propaganda asset to enhance the image of the Soviets and of Stalin personally. He probably would have been put on display in some manner or another. Spectacles were big deals in the USSR. After all, the Soviets did parade tens of thousands of German POWs through the streets of Moscow in the wake of 'Operation Bagration' in the summer of 1944. I see no reason why they wouldn't have milked Hitler for all he could have been worth and then once his usefulness was over, give him some sort of trial and hang him publicly.

[apocalypsehow]

34. Upon reflection, I think you're probably closer to describing what would have happened than I was.

Thinking about the propaganda value of having Hitler in Soviet custody is likely something Stalin would have milked for awhile, just as you say. I wonder if the Western allies, were that the scenario that would've unfolded, would have put pressure on Stalin to transfer Hitler into the tribunal process of the Nuremberg Trials, and if Stalin would've said "forget it! The top war criminal is ours and ours alone to put on trial!" Would've been interesting history made if the Red Army had managed to capture Hitler alive, that's for sure.


Edit: typo.

[RZM]

37. There probably would have been friction there

No doubt the Western Allies would have pressured Stalin to hand over Hitler to an international process. Historians would have subsequently put that flap into the context of the myriad other disputes that between the West and Soviets at the dawn of the Cold War.

My sense is that Stalin wouldn't have budged on that issue though for many reasons. One might have been Stalin's wariness that Hitler be used to promote the idea of 'Jewish suffering,' as separate from 'Soviet suffering.' The Soviets were sort of quasi-Holocaust deniers after the war. They were very hostile to the idea of Jews being singled out as special victims and preferred that the Holocaust be rolled/obscured into a larger theme of Soviet sacrifice, hence the slogan 'don't divide the dead.' With the Soviets alone in control of Hitler's fate after the war, they would have been better positioned to shape the narrative of what he would have to answer for.

[lunatica]

13. He couldn't stand to be seen as weak and defeated

That's what I think. I think his whole life was a reaction to his abusive father who probably humiliated him and made him feel weak.

[rhett o rick]

35. I agree with you. nm

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. What makes you think he killed himself?

I more than half believe he died of old age in Uraguay.

Yeah, I know, they found a burned corpse, and people iin the bunker say he killed himself.

Then again, people in the bunkers would be the last of the 'true believers' and that is exactly what they would say if they wanted to stop the hunt. And the government saying it was him, is exactly what the government would say to hide the fact that they let him get away.

[Capitalocracy]

16. Uruguay, Chile, Argentina...

could be, what do I know? Not really the point, though, as there are other examples of war criminals, Nazis included, who killed themselves in custody rather than go to trial... my point is about the importance of trials, and wondering why people are so opposed to them (from the way people talk about trials around here, you'd think they were handing out candy.)

[apocalypsehow]

17. The preponderance of the evidence supports the version of events given by those in the Bunker at the

time of his suicide, and the Russians had the remains in their custody for years before they finally cremated them (what was left of them: the original burn job by the Germans was botched) for good sometime, I believe, in the 1960s.

Still, anything is possible, I guess. I've never seen a piece of credible evidence that indicated Hitler lived beyond the Fall of Berlin in 1945, though.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

18. It seems like

if we don't personally view the death/body, there is always going to be some kind of "conspiracy theory" about whether or not they are dead or alive floating around in the ether believed in by at least a few people. :shrug:

Although not a real-life example, I remember on Trek BBS people were debating for the longest time exactly whether or not Mace Windu died in Star Wars Episode III, which, frankly, I always thought was pretty unambiguous. :shrug: I'm sure that there are at least a few people who think OBL might not have actually died too. Same with Elvis.

[Capitalocracy]

19. The existence of Photoshop has ended that paradigm.

There will always be a conspiracy theory, body or no body.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

20. Good point

n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

67. He was still alive when he went out the window, after all. nt

[Old and In the Way]

23. Meglomaniacs have a hard time blending in.

If he had escaped to South America, I think he'd have been eventually exposed.

[Capitalocracy]

24. Plenty of Nazis got away with it in South America

He'd have to police his moustache, but he might get away with it, too.

Not that I think he did, but it's one of those conspiracy theories that's at least plausible.

[krispos42]

21. To deny the Allies the propoganda.

To deny the Allies the privilege of executing him after a sufficient period of humiliation.

:shrug:

Death before dishonor.

[Capitalocracy]

22. That may have been how he viewed it

but I would hardly call the Nuremburg trials propaganda. They're extremely important legal and historical precedent for how to deal with war criminals.

[krispos42]

25. That is true, but he couldn't have known it at the time.

Also, he would have seen the Allies doing to him as he would have done to Stalin has the situation been reversed. His mindset would have had Stalin him ultimately exiling him to Siberia... after whatever interrogation the NKVD or Red Army chose to give him.

There is also the fear that the military unit that captured him would have decided to not wait for such things as "orders from above" to deal with him, that he would get summary justice by enraged and inventive Red Army soldiers.



Regarding the "propaganda", perhaps a better term I could have used was "media attention".

[izquierdista]

48. Which hasn't been followed since

Not for any Americans, at least.

[barb162]

26. I think it was both; the trial and subsequent execution

because he was someone who couldn't take the humiliation after being the great leader for so many years.

[undeterred]

27. He was posting on DU and got frustrated.

[bluestate10]

65. You think?

Early dial-up must have been hell. Hitler typed three letters and waited for an hour to see them. Pissed, he shot himself.

[jwirr]

28. You might look first to see if Mussolini died before him. He may well

have feared that fate.

[teamster633]

47. Mussolini did die before him.

I've always read that it was the spectacle of Mussolini's demise that made him resolve to never be taken alive. Considering that 20 million Russians died as a result of his vicious quest for lebensraum, Hitler may well have understood that he had far more to fear from the Red Army than Mussolini had to fear from the partisans.

[Politicalboi]

31. He was a coward

And he may have had symptoms of Parkinson's Disease and he was getting speed daily from one of his doctors. Perhaps he thought he'd be a Martyr. I watched something on TV a while ago and it showed him having to hold his arm. And he got daily injections of speed. If the show is correct.

[Octafish]

38. What if you got a planet full of Hitlers?

Which is the situation we are facing. What then? Will they try and take us with them as they go down fighting to their last hired man?

[jwirr]

56. Now that is a VERY good question. As Michael Moore says they

overplayed their get rich schemes so now will they back off or do a suicide run?

[jimlup]

39. Here here!

Yes this is why the assassinations of late have been a dis-service to the people. We needed to put Osama Bin Laden on trial for exactly this reason.

[bluestate10]

66. I'll take the outcome that happened. The bastard is just as dead. nt

[Mimosa]

46. Hitler killed himself because he knew he had no future. It was over.

The few leaders left in Hitler's bunker probably didn't particularly fear execution or trials.

Even bad actors know what makes for a successful dramatic ending when the show's run is at last over. If anything they would fear the revenge of germans more than the trials conducted by allies. Hitler at the end was a drugged up depressive.

[jmowreader]

49. Hitler probably knew he was going to be tortured to death...

by the unit that picked him up. They'd just tell Comrade Generalissimo Stalin he resisted arrest and attempted to kill the sergeant leading the assault on the bunker so they had no choice but to kill him, and Stalin would have accepted that.

What were his alternatives? To go to the Soviet justice system--verdict first, trial afterward...maybe? And then spend the next thirty years living in a glass cell inside the front door of the Kremlin, so people could point at him and laugh? Or to go to the Allies, who would have stuck him in general population at an American Army prison for a couple of years while all his atrocities were laid out for a court-martial, which would have been filmed and shown to all the people in the world? He knew what would have happened at the end of it: the American general Eisenhower would have had Hitler shot by seven Jewish soldiers.

The only viable option Hitler had was to kill himself and his entire family, so that's the path he took.

[jwirr]

57. Entire family - years ago I read an article in some magazine that

Eva and he had two children and that the children were smuggled out of Europe to Argentina before the end came. Don't know if it was true or not. But interesting.

[JVS]

61. I doubt the unit to take the bunker would torture him to death.

People in the Red Army didn't disobey orders from the top lightly.

[Critters2]

51. No way to know for sure, but I suspect he expected his enemies

to treat him the way he would've treated them.

[Kaleva]

52. Goering waited till have the trial to kill himself.

He seemed to relish the spotlight the trial gave him.

[ThoughtCriminal]

54. I think that Mussolini's death probably influenced him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Death

[snot]

59. I have to disagree with your last sentence.

For me, trials are so impt. bec. ALL are entitled to due process of law -- and when I say all I don't just mean the accused, although. I believe the rest of us also benefit from the opportunity to hear all the evidence and arguments, and decide for ourselves what justice should look like.

[Kaleva]

60. Te members of the tribe that captured Gaddafi may well think he got justice.

Our "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" may seem totally alien to them.

[bluestate10]

63. Given what happened to Mussolini before him.

Hitler had to realize that he would be dragged through what remained of german streets and executed by an enraged populace. And may be hung by his heels. Life doesn't end well for dictators when they over stay their time. Gadaffi is the latest example.

[MrScorpio]

70. What the hell are you talking about? The Basterds killed Hitler

Didn't you know that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqTbymcQfJY

[guitar man]

71. It's actually pretty well documented

The real reason for Hitler's suicide is explained pretty well in this short clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MX2FJsIN5U

[NoGOPZone]

73. You beat me by five minutes. I can't believe this post was here two days without a Downfall vid. nt

[guitar man]

75. I couldn't believe it either

for once I didn't get beaten to the punch :silly:

[NoGOPZone]

74. I think he felt he would be seen as a martyr, or maybe that his example would cause Germans

to fight or die but never surrender.

[Marrah_G]

76. His ego was too big to die on someone elses terms

He was not a rational person. He was not a sane person.

[MicaelS]

77. Trials are fine, as long as..

They end in certain types people, like Hitler, Hussein, Gadaffi, or other mass / serial killers, getting executed. The problem isn't trials, the problem is some people who attitude is "I would never support the Death Penalty, even for Hitler." Since the Anti-Death Penalty people won't support execution for the worst among us, their is a natural inclination of those who desire death for certain criminals to shortcut the process and carry out the sentence they deem proper and just, without a trial.

And I think Hitler killed himself because he knew he would have been tried, judged and convicted by a court that included Jewish and Slavic lawyers and judges. And that would have the worst humiliation possible for him, in his warped mindset, to be condemned by those he thought as subhumans.

[dana_b]

78. he was a damn coward

if his ideology was so great, he would have defended it boldly until his death.