Libya's transitional leader, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, says Libya will be ruled by Islamic Sharia law!

[Better Believe It]

Libya NTC head Jalil pledges to uphold Islamic law
msnbc.com staff and news service reports
October 23, 2011

Libya's transitional leader has declared liberation of the country, three days after the death of its leader of four decades, Moammar Gadhafi.

Mustafa Abdul-Jalil also told thousands of supporters at a ceremony on Sunday that Islamic Sharia law would be the "basic source" of legislation in the country and that existing laws that contradict the teachings of Islam would be nullified. In an address that set an Islamist tone for post-Gadhafi Libya, he said new banks would be set up to follow the Islamic banking system, which bans charging interest.

"This revolution was looked after by God to achieve victory," he told the crowd.

"All the martyrs, the civilians and the army had waited for this moment. But now they are in the best of places ... eternal heaven," he said, shaking hands with supporters.

Read the full article at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45004684/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/

[MADem]

1. Well, that means that the guys who killed Muhamar will get the hero's thumbs-up.

Sharia law dictates that the intentional murder of Muslims is a death penalty offense. They're still finding mass graves in Libya.

The banking system doesn't charge interest, but they do charge "use fees." It all works out to be pretty much the same, it just sounds nicer to the unattuned ear.

[monmouth]

2. Their country, their decision...n/t

[Better Believe It]

4. Yes it is. And this is what the foreign military intervention may lead to.

[dkf]

9. Yup we stick our big fat nose where it doesn't belong.

It has consequences. I bet all the women will be overjoyed at what we have done to them.

[sabrina 1]

55. Women, who had totally equal rights and equal pay which we

still don't have, in Libya, will now be oppressed as they became under the Taliban when we left that country in ruins, and Iraq, where once-free women are now afraid to go out without a 'male companion'.

But didn't people say all along that the 'rebels' were a small % of the population and the religious extremists? Guess those 'dictator-lovers, like me' were right after all.

But hey, we get the oil contracts, and Russia and China will now have to scramble for the crumbs. Not to mention, we cheer for War Crimes on the left now also, which I saw this week from our Democratic party who have remained silent on the matter. At least in France and Britain some of their Reps are demanding an investigation into their role in that grotesque war crime.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polly7]

65. I really hope the women who have had these

rights all along will be able to assert themselves in the gov't somehow.

[polly7]

66. Here is the UN General Assemlby's Libyan Review dated Jan. 4. 2011.

Report of the Working Group on the Universal Periodic Review* - Libyan Arab Jamahiriy

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/16session/A-HRC-16-15.pdf

You are correct about the rights and freedom of women in Libya.

[sabrina 1]

77. Women in Afghanistan, back before the Russians went there

also had freedoms and rights. After that war ravaged the country and the Taliban took over, they lost all of those rights. Today I heard that Jibril claims Libya will now have Sharia Law. If that is true, then the women will not have rights.

[newspeak]

87. women in afghanistan had freedoms under soviet rule also

free to have careers, were in academia. It is when the taliban come that women lose those freedoms. Women under the taliban had the highest rate of suicide.

So, which is better a somewhat benevolent dictator or a tyrannical democracy. If you have a democracy where the majority kills or suppresses the minority and enforces harmful policies on those minorities, you definitely don't have a government that represents all. Whereas, if you have a dictator who includes those minorities and enacts programs, like universal healthcare, for his citizens.

Oh, and iran in many ways (especially regard to gays) is repressive; however, women do work, do vote and drive. However, in SA, one of our bosom buddies, women cannot drive and do not vote.

[mainer]

95. I believe Russian rule gave women MORE rights than ever before

Ironic, isn't it?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

121. Wait, what?

"Women, who had totally equal rights and equal pay which we still don't have" - are you saying that the wage gap was smaller in Libya than in the US? I don't *know* that that's not the case, but it would utterly amaze me if it were.

If I'm misunderstood, and that's not what you mean, what is?

[PurityOfEssence]

53. As long as it gets a real vote....

Otherwise, it's not particularly legitimate.

[Rex]

60. Until the next time.

Jus sayin.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

120. Who are "they"?

And where do you stand on "the tyranny of the majority"? - do you believe that the rights of minorities should be at all protected in a democracy, even if the majority opposes them?

[Rochester]

3. And this is why we should butt out of foreign country's internal affairs

The R's are going to have a field day with this. They opposed Obama's involvement just because it was Obama, but now they've been handed a legitimate reason on a silver platter.

[sabbat hunter]

5. That could be very bad news

for women and minorities in Libya in terms of equal rights.

[boston bean]

6. That is most concerning to me. Not whether Obama looks good or bad. nt

[femrap]

14. I think this is

exactly what the US of A wants....now we can a big War/Crusades.

Libya seems to be following the example of Iran...not many happy women there.

My wish is that the women of the Middle East will arise and take their Liberty.

[al bupp]

21. Here are some happy Libyan women

[femrap]

23. Is this before they found

out about Shiria Law??? I wonder what rights/freedoms they will receive under it.

Phyllis Schafly looks happy too....along w/ millions of Fundie women as well.

[SwampG8r]

7. i am sure someone from my ignore list will be here soon to tell us how

this is the bestest thing that could happen and that it only makes the decision to involve the US even smarterer

[dkf]

8. Well that is just great.

I love how democracy is taking root there..not.

[Ikonoklast]

10. No surprise there.

That Libya would be a less secular and more religious nation after Qaddafi was gone was no secret, this was stated as being on of the goals by those in revolt all along.

If this is the decision made by citizens of Libya, then they will get the nation they want to have, not one imposed by a military dictatorship, and will have to live with the consequences of those decisions.

[roamer65]

30. Just like Algeria is my prediction.

Islamists won an election, then Bouteflika and the military seized power.

There will be another military coup in Libya.

[Ikonoklast]

39. Depends how quickly the transitional government can get everyone to agree

on what form a new government will take.

Every faction must have a say, or there will be political difficulties then more unrest, which will give any erstwhile military dictator the opening he needs.

I am sure that there is at least one guy wearing khaki thinking he will be the next Qaddafi, huge amounts of wealth always seem to make it worth the risk.

[Fool Count]

69. What does "decision by citizens of Libya" even mean?

If 75% of them want an islamist sharia state and 25% don't is this a "decision by citizens of Libya"? What if its 60/40 or 55/45?
What about those who don't want to live under sharia laws? Are you saying tough luck for them - democracy is a bitch?

[femrap]

11. When 'Arab Spring'

(actually Tunisia started things off in January), I thought to myself....Damn, I hope this isn't going to end up like Iran and Religious Leaders fill the Power Vacuum. I even went so far to think that TPTB wanted this...that they were setting the groundwork for WW3 or Crusades 2 pitting Xians against Muslims. Those PTB love World War...they make money selling arms to both sides.

Remember War is a Racket, folks. And TPTB need to reduce population A LOT!

I have a very hard time believing that WOMEN want Sharia Law unless of course they are brainwashed like so many women in the USA are who uphold the Fundies outlook of life.

I'm going to :hide:

I want no part of this possible upcoming War. I fear another False Flag which would totally distract the masses from OWS. :cry:

Or maybe I just need to get my :tinfoilhat: and believe it's time for Mother Nature to kick some ass and dissolve Globalization.

[CJCRANE]

32. There are muslim feminists who argue for their rights

based on their interpretations of sharia law. It's like anything else, there are liberal and conservative interpretations and everything in between. That's where the democracy comes in.

There are European countries which are "christian democracies", I don't see that there will be potentially much difference in the long run.

[femrap]

42. Iran isn't much of

democracy...went from Secular to Sharia and many were not happy....just oppressed.

But it beats the Wahabi Sect which is in Saudia Arabia....I look at it as similar to Mormonism....came into existence about the same time, I believe.

[CJCRANE]

46. I tend to seek out the liberal interpretations*

of religions (whether Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc) so I'm always surprised how much sway the fundamentalists have.

*In fact, like many agnostics/atheists I like to research and read the original texts for myself and find there's a lot more to them than we're led to believe (Karen Armstrong gave a very good lecture at TED about the nuances of sharia law for instance).

[femrap]

50. imho,

all organized religions hate women. That's all I need to know. No matter what the texts say, it's the ACTIONS that matter.

And WTF is it w/ men and their sexual turn-on by the hair on women's heads?????

I have my own Spirituality which is similar to Native Americans....the rest of this organized stuff is just for Oppression and Manipulation. Marx was right.

Actually I think a bunch of rich dudes wrote all this organized religious stuff so they could call all the shots. The Buddhist nuns live much worse than the dudes. But I guess they don't start as many wars as the others. Or I could be wrong.

[tabatha]

52. I think the scarves that women wear are a gradual

evolution of the clothing warn in desert areas to keep sand out of everything. As countries adopted western clothing more and more, it has slowly been reduced to just the head wear. And I would not mind it being acceptable here for bad hair days.

The Tuareg, on the other hand, because they are nomadic have kept to the anti-sand wear - even to the head gear which can be pulled into place so that just the eyes are uncovered. And often, eyes are now covered by protective gear obtained from the west.



What clothes work best in the desert?
Bare skin burns in the hot desert sun. For protection, the Tuareg wear layers of loose-fitting cotton clothes. The layers of cloth keep sweat close to the body. This makes the sweat evaporate more slowly, conserving moisture and keeping the body cooler.

Men wear loose-fitting shirts and pants under large indigo robes like the one seen in the photograph. Women almost always wear two wrappers, long pieces of cloth worn like skirts around their waists. On top, they often wear two blouses. Over the entire ensemble they wear large indigo head cloths.

```````````

It always helps to understand the cultural context.

[femrap]

56. So why aren't

the dudes of Iran and Iraq, etc. wearing head scarves? And why the Burqas????

Seriously, keeping women covered from head to toe is oppression. Women tempt men....that's why they must be all covered up. Men have no responsibility when it comes to controlling their lust...it's all women's fault.

And why would a Muslim woman need her head covered if she doesn't live in desert?

I have never seen a dude as pictured above in any of the videos I have witnessed of the Middle East. I watched all of the Arab Spring uprisings and never did I see a dude in anything like that. But all the women were covered.

Religions oppress women any way they can. But if you want to think it's just to keep sand off their bodies....go ahead.

And the women in Saudia forced to wear BLACK in that hot sun....???? Who in their right mind would wear black on a hot, sunny day of 120 degrees? The Wahabi religion is the most strict and hateful toward women.

The Tuareg represents what percentage of the Middle East...?? I'm not talking about nomads. I'm talking major cities in the Middle East and Northern Africa.

Cultural context...women are 2nd class citizens. That's cultural context.

[tabatha]

57. The cultural context

in various countries evolve into different things for different people.

It is obvious in our own culture, where "Christian" traditions from long ago have become embedded in our culture, and distorted in some instances to becoming money making rackets, or not following Christmas an indication of all horrors not being Christian.

The origin of that clothing was for suitable clothing in that climate. That is all I was saying.

It was you who changed it into religious meaning.

[femrap]

72. And I believe that

Religion is the reason the women have to cover their bodies and head.

The only time one would need to cover their head would be in the midst of a sand storm.

I don't buy your explanation at all. We disagree.

[riderinthestorm]

67. Many, many more desert environments have both sexes wearing virtually nothing

like those in the Kalahari deserts or the deserts of Australia etc.

Interestingly enough, those cultural desert tribes where they wear virtually no clothing, the women are very powerful and matriarchal societies thrive.

In the ME desert cultures, the women are oppressed and shrouded.

Same environment, different clothing choices, very different ways of treating their women.

Sorry but it IS religious.

[StarsInHerHair]

71. yet the coolest clothes aren't BLACK, it's lighter-colored clothe & KNIT

not woven, is the coolest.

[femrap]

122. Here's some info

on mandatory dress code for women of the Islam faith:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

You seem to be in denial about women being oppressed. You have to see the problem before being able to solve it.

At least at OWS, a man AND A WOMAN will be elected from each Congressional District....very encouraging.

[Diclotican]

58. femrap

femrap

Not correct. The Whanabit sect of Islam, was from the 1700s, or maybe even long before the 1700s, as the ideal is going back to the "true teacthings" of Islam, who the whanabits, belived to be poluted from the outside

the LDS church is from the middle of the 1800s.. And the Whanabit sect ar far worse than anything mormonism ever produced. Even tho many wil diagree with me there..

Diclotican

[femrap]

73. OK...

they're both a few hundreds years old...the similarity being that some dude all of sudden has a 'talk w/ God' and everything has to change..and the change was pretty bad for women.

Whatever...it's all a bunch of :puke: that keeps people under control and manipulated.

And I don't know what 'whanabit' is.....it's Wahhabism. Whanabit of what???

[Diclotican]

80. femrap

femrap

All religions, have their foundatations in someone have a talk with Good, and the hope is that the revelations that the dude are coming with, wil change things to the better... Even the religions of ancient time, who might have evolved over many thousands of year, made womans right less than the man.. Even tho in the late roman empire the duties and the rights of a woman in most cases was more or less the same as the man, Even down to the point of owning property and rule their household.. Later, specially by the 400s AD, the reality of the rights, was it was destroyed, and was not resurfased before the end of the 1700s, the early and late parts of the 1800s, and the most of the 20th century

The idea of woman lesser than the man is old, but had their popularity around 1000-1850, when sufargettes made the plight of the woman their case. And made hell for the rest of the population. It took a long time before womans got the same right as men, but by 1960s, the woman more or less had the same rights Even to terminate pregmenties if they do so shoose...

You know excactly what I meant by Whanbit, but I stand corrected, the right name of the islamic sect is Wahhabism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

Diclotican

[femrap]

89. diclotican

Religions were developed by rich men so to control and manipulate the population. There were no talks w/ God.

I no longer want to deal w/ your misspellings nor distorted world view. You need to read up on history...your view is beyond convoluted. buh-bye. I love that Ignore Button...wish I had it IRL.

Whanabit? lol "shoose"....more lol. I think you enjoy typing from your ass.

eta: I see your from Norway so I guess the misspellings are due to language differences. But I really expected a better mind from a Scandinavian dude.

[Diclotican]

91. femrap

femrap

By all means Femrap. You choose your own ideas and your choose your own path in the world. As I do it

And you can always use your ignore button, its your privilege to do it. Well in RL you might often have to be with people you not are comfortable with all the time. Its is obvious better to live your life in front on a screen, where you are the master of things..

You understood it perfectly, I'm soooooooooooo sorry that I Hurt your feeling typing it wrong.. Will more than possible happen again, even tho I somehow doubt that you are willing to read anything that are not in your own interest to know about. Everything else you are ignorant about.

Yes, I'm from the little country called Norway. And I was never a good student when it came to the noble language of english. But at least I am better in english, than you never will be in any other language what so ever.. Even tho my spelling sucks, something I try to correct, even tho it is not easy always when it goes little bit fast on the keyboard..

Well, I'm not Representative for scandinavians (it doesn't exist a country named Scandinavia, but hey, for an american I can accept a misspelling of a whole area of Europe, your geographic knowledge about the world, is worth less than a fly shit in my opinion) Im just representative for myself. As you are for you I guess..

Diclotican

[Diclotican]

92. femrap

femrap

By all means Femrap. You choose your own ideas and your choose your own path in the world. As I do it

And you can always use your ignore button, its your privilege to do it. Well in RL you might often have to be with people you not are comfortable with all the time. Its is obvious better to live your life in front on a screen, where you are the master of things..

You understood it perfectly, I'm soooooooooooo sorry that I Hurt your feeling typing it wrong.. Will more than possible happen again, even tho I somehow doubt that you are willing to read anything that are not in your own interest to know about. Everything else you are ignorant about.

Yes, I'm from the little country called Norway. And I was never a good student when it came to the noble language of english. But at least I am better in english, than you never will be in any other language what so ever.. Even tho my spelling sucks, something I try to correct, even tho it is not easy always when it goes little bit fast on the keyboard..

Well, I'm not Representative for scandinavians (it doesn't exist a country named Scandinavia, but hey, for an american I can accept a misspelling of a whole area of Europe, your geographic knowledge about the world, is worth less than a fly shit in my opinion) Im just representative for myself. As you are for you I guess..

Diclotican

[anamandujano]

12. Transitional leader should first bounce this stuff off the people.

I doubt that a people who dislodged a "government" so entrenched is going to put up with one man's idea about how they should live now that they're "free."

As everyone knows, the path forward will take time to be thrashed out. I can't envision the citizenry going from one dictator to another.

[SidDithers]

13. "Ghadaffi was the FDR of Africa"...nt

Sid

[TheKentuckian]

17. Oh hell, you're no better or wiser. Your point of view depends on the mirror opposite mindset.

You are just as unable to take a nuanced, big picture view to allow you to accurate assess the influence for the positive and the negatives.

Some see Africa's FDR, you see a curly haired Hitler, I'm pretty sure both have a measure of truth and absurdity.

[sabbat hunter]

28. How exactly? n/t

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

16. So what? Libya has always been conservative. Jalil "also paid tribute" to NATO's role.

He also paid tribute to the Gulf Cooperation Council, a six-nation alliance led by Saudi Arabia, The Arab League and the European Union. NATO, which aided the anti-Gadhafi fighters with airstrikes, performed its task with "efficiency and professionalism."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-23/libya-gadhafi-liberation/50879902/1

Let Libya choose their own path to freedom. Any fearmongering about Libya choosing to live under Sharia law is a disservice to their culture. It doesn't mean they're all going to take up arms and join Al-Qaeda, if that's what you're getting at. In fact, the Transitional Council scoffs at such nonsense. They are wealthy and there are no poor dissaffected youth there. Quite the opposite.

[whatchamacallit]

19. Lol!

:crazy:

[sabrina 1]

84. Lol, they won't be wealthy anymore. That was Gadaffi's

'socialist' garbage, giving people free education and free HC and free houses and special programs for the disabled and making women EQUAL with equal pay and all that horrible socialist stuff the far right here hates so much. We just supported the overthrow of a socialist who supported women's rights, for a bunch of fundies who hate immigrants and think women belong in the kitchen. Yay for us!! But so long as those fundies give us access to their oil, no problems for US. We did the same thing in Afghanistan when we supported the Taliban to 'restore order'. Poor women, it's especially difficult for them since they KNOW what being equal feels like.

Some Capitalist will make a fortune on the new women's 'fashions' though. So every cloud has some kind of silver lining! Hey, you all supported this, we tried to tell you. Those fundies always hated Gadaffi, the way our fundies hate Obama. Now they're in charge!

[Cerridwen]

18. "Libya bans banks from charging interest"

That was part of the speech, too. I wonder how that headline would have been greeted?

"Libyan men no longer subject to credit check to purchase additional wives" I'm a feminist. I might have gone with that.

"Libyan warriors to receive special treatment" I don't care for militaristic societies, abroad or in the US. That could have been another.

I can think of so many ways to spin his speech.

I wonder why this particular spin was chosen?

[Better Believe It]

22. That's in conformity with Islamic law

Libya NTC head Jalil pledges to uphold Islamic law
msnbc.com staff and news service reports
October 23, 2011

That happened to be the main headline on the news article because the editor thought this was the most important and newsworthy element in Jalit's speech. So do you think it was a liberal bias or political "spin"?

I think the editor was right to feature the Islamic law element in his/her caption.

I could not find your article quote ""Libyan men no longer subject to credit check to purchase additional wives". Did you just make that up to strengthen your political point?

[Cerridwen]

25. Not really sure why you chose to take that personally.

I was commenting on how easy it is to spin a subject based on emphasis.

I showed other things mentioned in the speech which could have given a different impression had the emphasis been placed differently.

If you'd looked closer, you would have also noticed that there was no mention of "Libyan warriors" in the speech either; it was about the military and national security forces.

The comment about the "credit check" is because men will no longer have to prove they can afford to support additional wives (up to 4) and they no longer have to get approval of wife #1.

I don't like theocracies. I don't care if they're "Christian," "Muslim," "Jewish," "Buddhist," "Shinto," or pick any of the thousands of man-made "religions" created to control people and their actions and thoughts.

I also don't care for spin. I posted in response to the latter.

[Better Believe It]

I didn't. I was responding to your critcism of the editor.

[Cerridwen]

29. Ah, good then. The world press needs someone to defend them.

[anamandujano]

33. an editor at msnbc

well ok then

[ellisonz]

20. Blasphemy!

:sarcasm:

:popcorn:

[CJCRANE]

24. 'Islamic Sharia law would be the "basic source" of legislation '.

Your title is slightly misleading.

[Johnson20]

26. Well, so much for

freedom and equal rights.

[Safetykitten]

27. Oh dear, this is not what we wanted. We wanted a Kmart there. You know, for them to be like us.

[MineralMan]

44. When will we stop meddling? That's what I want to know.

We can't even run our own country...for pete's sake.

[JNinWB]

47. Sad, but true.

Why is it our business to tell them how to run their country?

Anyone remember Iraq?

[madville]

31. Wait until the frozen Billions come back to Libya

and everyone starts fighting over the money, the fighting isn't over yet I bet.

[tabatha]

36. I love it when people pre-judge others.

Is that not the basis for prejudice?

[pampango]

34. "Sharia is the main source of legislation" in Egypt but "Egyptian laws remain largely secular".

"...he (Abdul-Jabril) laid out a vision for the post-Gadhafi future with an Islamist tint, saying Islamic Sharia law would be the "basic source" of legislation...

Using Sharia as the main source of legislation is stipulated in the constitution of neighboring Egypt. Still, Egyptian laws remain largely secular as Sharia does not cover all aspects of modern day life."

Better the democracy we don't know than the "anti-Islamist" dictator that we did know.

[tabatha]

35. Spectrum of Muslim legal systems

Spectrum of Muslim legal systems

The legal systems in 21st century Muslim majority states can be classified as follows:

Sharia in the secular Muslim states: Muslim countries such as Mali, Kazakhstan and Turkey have declared themselves to be secular. Here, religious interference in state affairs, law and politics is prohibited.<37> In these Muslim countries, as well as the secular West, the role of sharia is limited to personal and family matters.

The Nigerian legal system is based on English Common Law and the constitution guarantees freedom of religion and separation of church and State. However eleven northern states have adopted sharia law for those who practice the Muslim religion.<38>

Muslim states with blended sources of law: Muslim countries including Pakistan, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Sudan, Morocco and Malaysia have legal systems strongly influenced by sharia, but also cede ultimate authority to their constitutions and the rule of law. These countries conduct democratic elections, although some are also under the influence of authoritarian leaders. In these countries, politicians and jurists make law, rather than religious scholars. Most of these countries have modernized their laws and now have legal systems with significant differences when compared to classical sharia.<39>

Muslim states using classical sharia: Saudi Arabia and some of the Gulf states do not have constitutions or legislatures. Their rulers have limited authority to change laws, since they are based on sharia as it is interpreted by their religious scholars. Iran shares some of these characteristics, but also has a parliament that legislates in a manner consistent with sharia.

~~~~~~~~~~

Certainly right-wingers seem to have brain-washed everyone into getting hysterical about Sharia Law. I think anyone with a liberal bent has to examine all aspects of its implementation, and understand the nuances.

[anamandujano]

37. Thank you. Possibly a wait/see attitude is in order considering

the people are at the absolute beginning.

I tend to doubt they would have jettisoned one boot on the neck at such great cost and immediately accept another. Just a guess really.

Always the next powerful try to move in when there is a power vacuum. Just keep the US and Diebold away and they have a chance. jmho

[MineralMan]

43. What they decide to do is not our affair, I think.

We get in more trouble trying to impose our system on them than leaving them alone to figure out their own system.

We've never done well meddling in Middle Eastern governments. We should stop doing that altogether and let the people in each country decide their own future.

[dkf]

45. The first thing done was to allow up to 4 wives.

"He also announced the annulment of an existing family law that limits the number of wives Libyans can take, contradicting the provision in the Muslim holy book, the Quran, that allows men up to four wives."

Do you see that as a step in the right direction perhaps?

[tabatha]

51. ...

jirdan_tripoli shafshoofa_rat
People Polygamy is incredibly rare in Libya and it's socially discouraged in our society. Abdeljalil said it because there are many widows.
2 hours ago

It was possible under Gaddafi as well.

[MineralMan]

38. Why does that surprise you? It's a Muslim country, after all.

Sharia law is pretty standard in Muslim countries. I'd be surprised if it went any other way.

[Bobbie Jo]

40. Sharia Law!111!!

Oh Noes!!11!

[tabatha]

41. Can I use that picture?

[Bobbie Jo]

48. Of course.

:)

[JCMach1]

49. Islamic Banking rocks!

There is nothing lost by having Western-style banking eliminated...

Virtually all Arab countries base their secular laws on Sharia.

[Prometheus Bound]

54. Hmm. From the new self-appointed leaders. Couldn't wait a democratic election.

[a simple pattern]

116. Aww.

No purple finger pictures this time :(

[Kaleva]

59. There are many different versions of Sharia law.

The one thing almost all Muslims agree on in regard to Sharia law is that is based on the will or word of Allah but "there are many different interpretations of sharia, and differing perspectives on each interpretation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Schools_of_thought

[abogado]

64. Yeah, right...which version accepts gay people as total equals???

I seem to have totally overlooked that one.
:grr: :mad:

[Telly Savalas]

76. The version espoused by some of the folks discussed in the article below

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12486003

[LanternWaste]

115. I'd thought that was common knowledge amongst those...

"There are many different versions of Sharia law..."

I'd thought that was common knowledge amongst those who have been following this rebellion, as there were approximately seven different sects/parties being represented by the rebellion en toto.

And as each of the seven interest groups are currently being represented in the nascent transitional government, it seems that any emphatic statement about what and/or who will or will not eventually take as the de-facto seems rather premature.

Or simply projecting our own fears onto the future... :shrug:

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[Lucian]

62. So...how's that supposed to be better for the people?

Seems just as bad as the previous administration.

[riderinthestorm]

68. If I were gay, I would get out now. Get the fuck outta there immediately. Sharia laws as the basis

can only mean bad shit down the pike.

I don't see this as good news on several levels.... :scared:

[StarsInHerHair]

70. then it's a COUNTER REVOLUTION, I was afraid this might happen, it's like

Iran's "revolution":puke:

[Initech]

74. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

[Initech]

75. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

[Xithras]

78. So they're transitioning from a socialist dictatorship to a theocracy.

Great. Woo. Yay. What an improvement.

Not that many here didn't see this coming.

[Better Believe It]

85. It was no more a "socialist" nation than Russian under Stalin.

And authentic socialism and dictatorships are incompatible.

[Xithras]

93. Uhm, you should really do some research.

Gadaffi wasn't a nice guy by any stretch, but he certainly was a socialist. He was an ardent Nasserist who believed in Pan-Arabism and the nationalization of western owned assets in Libya and across the middle east. He imposed a 79%(!) tax on non-nationalized foreign owned resources including the oil fields, was the head of the Libya Socialist Union, and devoted billions of dollars a year (the vast majority of the nations tax revenue) to social programs for the people, including free government housing, educations, social nets, literacy programs, free medical care, etc. It had a centrally planned socialist economy and dedicated most of its money to the improvement of its people. There is a REASON why Libya had the highest standard of living, highest literacy rate, lowest homelessness rate, and highest average educational level in Africa.

Gadaffi was a dictator and was brutal to those who disagreed with him, but there is no question that he was also a socialist. To claim otherwise is to either demonstrate a lack of research, or a deliberate twisting of history.

And your claim that the two are incompatible is silly. You can have democratic communist nations, and dictatorial communist nations. You can have free market fascism, and free market democracies. One is an economic system, and the other is a political system. While some combinations work better than others, they CAN be combined in multiple ways. China was still communist under Mao. North Korea is still communist under the Kim-klan. While we may not LIKE the dictatorial jackasses who run their countries with socially oriented economic models, the No True Scotsman fallacy fails here.

[Zorra]

79. Well, isn't that just special.

That is going to be a complete horror for the women and children of Libya.

[Douglas Carpenter]

81. it really is too early to say what this was really mean. Sharia is a very broad concept

It by no means in all cases means the same as it means in Saudi Arabia or with the Taliban or in Iran - and even between those three it means vastly different things.

I did not support the NATO intervention - because I believe that when outside powers intervene in these kinds of situation - even when they have good intentions and don't care about things like oil - at last 90% of the time they find themselves stumbling around in the dark and usually causing more harm than good.

But still in regards to Sharia - a good deal of even the more modern parts of the Islamic world - like Dubai for example - would declare themselves to be under Sharia - but what actually that actually means is going to vary greatly. It is simply too early to determine what it means in the case of Libya.

[The Magistrate]

82. True, Sir: Some People Bark At the Sound 'Sharia' Like Dogs At Someone Near their Fence

In Moslem countries, saying 'Sharia is the basic source of legislation' is like saying in Anglo-Saxon countries 'Common Law is the basic source of legislation'. As always, the devil will be in the details....

[Douglas Carpenter]

83. good to hear from you again

:hi:

[riderinthestorm]

88. Gays are stil imprisoned under Sharia law in Dubai, women are unequal under the law in Dubai

and that also stems from Sharia....

Sorry but sometimes a visceral reaction IS called for. Some things really ARE repressive and deserve shaming. If Libya adopts Sharia, I don't think it's a stretch to believe that's a backwards position from its present secularism.

[Douglas Carpenter]

94. Dubai also has thriving gay life like most cosmopolitan Middle Eastern cities. So that is very much

an exception. Gays were imprisoned in America at times and in most places in the western world within my lifetime. Fortunately, that has changed. It is hardly that Sharia is ideal . There simply is a wide range of the meaning of the word Sharia. I'm not sure what kind of court system Libya had earlier. But I would be surprised if it did not include recognition of Sharia Law. The current situation may very well be a step backward. I don't know what the system was like under Qadaffi or what form and level the new Sharia will be. I suspect system neither are very good.

[riderinthestorm]

97. Being gay is still illegal in Dubai. And women have unequal laws on inheritance etc.

I hear and understand your comments about Dubai being a 'better" Sharia state but honestly, are we supposed to be okay that they have enshrined religious bigotry on their books but today they overlook it (even if they've left the door open to oppression later)? Libya has a chance to really be a truly secular state free from religiously codified bigotry and discrimination. I don't think that's too much to expect or demand actually. They may not do it, they may vote to be religious bigots. But that doesn't mean we can't articulate a position up front.

[Douglas Carpenter]

99. well that is true. But it probably is the reality of what is expected there.

It is simply too early to determine how well, how modern and how fair their legal system will be. I was against the NATO intervention partly because I don't believe America should put itself into the position of deciding things we simply don't understand with results that we cannot predict. But now that is done - It will take some time to see what legal form develops.

[mainer]

100. Dubai is weird. I saw lots of Arabs getting drunk in bars.

while wearing traditional garb. The hotel concierges will be happy to set you up with hookers, too. But if you kiss your wife in public, you'll get in trouble.

[JCMach1]

102. The 2AM cattle call when the Discos close in Dubai is one of the stranger sites I have ever seen

That's when the hookers pour onto the streets trying to make rent for the night in their hundreds... The only thing I might compare it to is a wildabeast migration...

[JCMach1]

105. Sex in the Muslim world (and yes here in the UAE) operates on the don't ask, don't tell policy

You can't be openly anything here... what goes on in private, however, would make most Americans blush.

[Douglas Carpenter]

110. still I have known any number of what one might call "flaming queens" when I worked in the UAE

and even a number in Saudi Arabia. And they were not the least bit discreet. I have pretty much surmised that under most authoritarian governments - things are over looked until someone steps on the wrong persons toes. Usually the stepping on toes had nothing to do with the actual legal charge - but some other unrelated matter that upset the wrong people. Then all of a sudden things that went on for years that nobody cared about are all at once a real big deal. I don't think that is unique to the Middle East or Sharia - I think it is what happens in social order where there is a huge gap between official reality and actual reality.

[JCMach1]

112. and Transgendered...

it is typically only a problem when people call attention to themselves in front of the authorities in some kind of way.

And yeah, that's not right... but it is different than what most Westerners would think actually happens...

[slackmaster]

103. It's even worse than that

There's no beer.

[JCMach1]

106. Really? I will have to tell that to my alcoholic friends

[Douglas Carpenter]

107. actually I left the UAE in 1989 partly because my drinking was getting out of hand

[JCMach1]

108. I am not personally a drinker... however the Brits AND the Arabs

here and everyone frankly are terrible about drinking.

One of the biggest and coolest liquor stores I have seen ANYWHERE is located (and run by one of the local Sheikhs for the CASH) on the other side of Sharjah (which is a dry emirate except for hotels and one special club).

As there are no taxes, the prices can be really good compared to back home.

[Douglas Carpenter]

118. yeah those Brits I met during my 25 years in the Middle East were quite the drinkers

They certainly blew my stereotype of the posh English gentleman living abroad. Alistair Cooke they were not.

[mainer]

113. I had no trouble getting beer. Or any cocktails.

You just have to go into a bar.

I went to one restaurant which was divided into the alcohol section and the non-alcohol section. And the alcohol section was indoors, out of sight.

[Zorra]

90. It may vary greatly, but is there anywhere on the planet where

Sharia Law is the law of the land that human rights are acknowledged, respected, and protected?

[Douglas Carpenter]

98. I have never been or seen anywhere in the entire third world where human rights are

acknowledged, respected, and protected by the standards of a modern liberal western democracy. And in even modern, liberal western democracies that is not always the case. I am not a defender of Sharia Law - not at all. In fact quite the opposite. I suspect I am one of the few people here who has actually suffered under it. But that is a very long story. Still the word simply doesn't mean the same thing in every place. If one is looking for a system where human rights are truly acknowledged, respected, and protected - that is pretty much limited to modern industrialized liberal democracies - and even then only when the people seeking human rights have adequate resources and even then only most, but not all of the time.

[JCMach1]

109. +1 you are correct...

That has also been my experience traveling in Africa and Asia as well.

[riderinthestorm]

114. I agree with this however, as stated before, LIbya has a chance to start fresh

They have the opportunity here to demonstrate to the world that they can have a constitution in line with modernity. They have a very high literacy rate and a fairly well educated populace. I believe we can certainly hold up a first world constitution as an example without being shamed by cultural relativists (not that you are one of them, this is just a general remark).

[JCMach1]

104. I wasn't joking about the banking...

There are parts of it that are not so bad...

As with any laws, they are always up to interpretation. Most Muslim/Arab countries have CIVIL LAWS and here is the key point BASED ON SHARIA.

Douglas is right about the application of those laws... it varies from country to country.

[riderinthestorm]

111. I just believe religious bigotry codified into law is wrong on any level.

"Not so bad" just doesn't cut it for me when that kind of bigotry is openly legal. May not be enforced but when it's the law of the land, it's wrong imho and engenders discrimination that becomes rampant in a culture (Dubai has a very large almost slave population that's virtually stateless and second class for example). My very limited knowledge of the UAE states is that Shariah law is also part of their financial and criminal law as well as civil cases. A quick Wiki search confirms that but if you have knowledge that's different, I'd be open to reading it.

Libya has a chance to do it differently. I hope they do but this news doesn't engender great hope. Theology has no place in political systems but unfortunately Islam has a major problem detangling that. This first pronouncement by Lbya's transitional governments is a mistake imho.

[JCMach1]

117. Most of the construction jobs still pay better than Apple in China...

and there have been many visible improvements during the 9 years I have lived here for workers. Most make more than in similar jobs back home in India, Nepal, or Sri Lanka.

However, things are still not good for workers... Unions are not allowed and contractors often take advantage of lazy and underresourced enforcement. Think of Dubai as the kind of country Republicans want America to be. No minimum wage and employers have all the power. Those are not necessarily related to Sharia though.

In fact, if you look at the courts, the bigger problems would actually be cronyism, corruption, sexism and direct racism by the courts. Sharia is only one component as all of those things are part of the larger culture of the region.

I agree Libya has a chance to make things right. I actually get very afraid when I notice what most Westerners wouldn't about the leader of the Libyan resistance.

When I see Mr. Jalil's picture, I see a religious fanatic...



Notice the callous on his forehead... that is produced by someone who prays to vigorously to the point of sometimes injuring themself. Maybe other heads will prevail, but don't expect a secular regime in Libya.

[Upton]

86. K&R

Sharia law...what a surprise..

[renegade000]

96. So I assume we were all OK

with Obama "dragging his feet" on Egypt right? I mean, Mubarak did prevent those Islamist parties from gaining power...

[mainer]

101. Egypt was decided by Egyptians. Not NATO airstrikes.

That was the big difference.

[DefenseLawyer]

119. Kansas is next!!! n/t