At what point is a person responsible for his or her actions?

[digonswine]

This is, in part, in response to a post about al-Awlaki's son, unjustly killed. It got me thinking, though. Anyone who thinks a bit knows that a person's history, environment, and genetics plays a big part in who they become and what they do. The more you look into someone's past-say a murderer or abuser or you name it, the more difficult it becomes to truly assign responsibility to their actions--at least sometimes. The fact is-those sexually abused tend to repeat this behavior. Those raised in violent households tend towards violence, etc. I'm a lucky duck, since I was not exposed to this poison.
I worked with sexually abused young males for 13 years. Many we helped, many others were fucked from the get-go. I saw 12 and 13 year-olds that everyone knew were going to be consciousless sociopaths that would leave a victim trail until they were caught up in the system.
As a thinking person-I honestly wished some of these people would disappear--like-ceased to live.
At some point-some people no longer have the ability to change. For some--a piece of shit at 15 is a piece of shit at 25.

[sibelian]

1. From the day they are born.

Responsibility isn't some kind of moral yard-stick, it's a matter of cause and effect. Holding someone responsible for their actions is an entirely different matter from deciding what to *do* about their actions.

In the cases of the sexually abused young males you have worked with, whose understanding of reality and good and evil have been warped and they continue the abusive pattern at the expense of innocent individuals, I would argue that there is a *collective* responsiblity, both on the part of the original abuser and the abused and subsequently abusing victim. For the abuse to continue, *both* individuals have to enable it.

"Who's responsible" is the easy part, it's deciding what to do next that's hard.

[digonswine]

7. What do you mean that "both individuals have to enable it"?

The damage is done with the original abuser. Basically, the abused has a difficult time not falling into the same abuse cycle they experienced.
In the end--I can understand why the abuser does what he/she does, but, at least as far as we have come, the individual is responsible for what they do.
When you understand what fuels folks, the justice system has nothing to with punishing wrong-doers, but is in the business of protecting the innocent from the others. The whole idea of prison as punishment is mostly odious. Hey--you're a rapist? You don't get to live in society anymore! I don't want to punish-only protect.

[sibelian]

8. You've answered your own question....?

:shrug:

[digonswine]

11. I don't know-

I was wondering what others think about it-

[sibelian]

16. well *I* view responsiblity entirely from the point of view of cause and effect.

So basically if two people are necessary for something to happen and both of them do the thing necessary to make it happen, they're both responsible.

I see a lot of toing and froing over this that tries to take an individual from such a set-up and "blame" just him saying he's "responsible". Society has some kind of resistance to the idea that responsibility can be viewed as a collective aspect of a process.

But I'm not sure if that's what you mean. I think you're using the word "responsible" to stand for "able to accept and understand that other people have moral expectations of you and thus conduct oneself accordingly" which I think is a different thing and for which I use the word "trustworthy". But then I make a very definite conscious distinction between the meanings of these two (in my view) often confused words.

Again, establishing who is responsible for something isn't difficult, the difficult bit is what to do when someone has ignored the fact of a responsibility and other individual has incurred a cost as a direct consequence.

[riderinthestorm]

2. I've volunteered at women's shelters (and rape crisis centers) for 30 years

you make a thoughtful, provocative and very truthful comment.

Many women I've met say that the reason they left their situation was because their toxic living situation was such a bad influence for their child/children they left - they knew it would simply perpetuate a cycle that they wouldn't wish on anyone.

And honestly, yes, you could already see that some of those damaged children were already deeply troubling....

I didn't comment on the other thread because like you, I do believe Anwar Al-Awlaki knew, explicitly knew, what he was doing, and the danger he was exposing his family. By 16 years old, every teen knows that who you hang out with says a lot about who you are and what you are.

Summed up I guess that similar to you, I see the grey area in this and find it almost impossible to make a comment without having some real details.

Good OP. K and R.

[digonswine]

4. To be clear-

I was not saying anything about al-Awlaki's son specifically--not knowing much about it. I also do not quite agree with the assertion that any 16 yr old understands the implications of hanging out with fuckers. It seems clear that the human brain is not fully developed at that age and that some are even more stunted due to many factors unknown to me in this case.
But yes--tons of grey-

[riderinthestorm]

10. Good point but nuanced. A 16 yr old knows if he's hanging around with fuckers

was my point. I believe they "know" that much - the implications of hanging around that kind of crowd may not be something their immature brains may fully grasp however is another more nuanced point, and a fair one to make.

Beyond that though, what's the responsibility of his parents who surely raised him in unstable Yemen and certainly modeled some pretty poor attitudes, if any. Your question of "responsibility" in regards to a 16 year old is truly a tricky one and certainly worth pondering however.

Culturally, some 16 year olds are considered adults and "ready" (cough) to be married - a quick Google search tells you that more than half the girls (and I use the word "girls" purposefully) are married by 16 years old in Yemen.

[ZombieHorde]

3. Technically, no one is responsible for their actions. Responsibility is a made-up, human concept.

Responsibility is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder.

Responsibility as cause and effect is real, but that is not the use of the word in the OP. I believe the OP is referring to responsibility as moral fault.

[digonswine]

9. What do you mean by "moral fault"?

[ZombieHorde]

18. Doing something considered unethical, like throwing babies at bears.

It is subjective.

[sibelian]

12. To me, that's a slightly confusing post...

The first paragraph references the weird "I want to blame X because of how I feel" understanding of responsibility that's highly prevalent in many discussions of morality and makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall and the second paragraph "responsibility as cause and effect is real" is the cornerstone of my understanding of responsibility which forms the backbone of *my* understanding of morality.

Sorry, that was rather a long sentence.

I think your first paragraph is about what I would call "blame" (which is constantly being mixed up with responsibility in ever more convoluted and stupid ways by irritating people that don't listen to me usually because I start shouting...).

"Be responsible", people are told. It drives me nuts. The phrase should be: "understand that you are responsible..."

[OneGrassRoot]

5. Very thought-provoking OP. Recommended.

I also appreciate the first two replies.

I have no answers. I do feel that for some people (and it's different from person to person), there is a point of no return for those with sociopathic tendencies. That point is often in the teen years. What to do about it is indeed the question.

:(


edited for clarity

[WinkyDink]

6. When Eddie said he didn't love his Teddy, we knew he was a no-good kid.

[Morning Dew]

15. But was he trying to redeem himself by sending that note to Dr. Scott?

Or was he only worried about saving himself? I can't be sure.

I do know he was a low down cheap little punk.

:)

[RegieRocker]

13. This is a easy one. When no one gives a damn!

1. Sick from working too much, not getting enough rest, smoke, drink etc. too f¤¤cking bad, die fool.
2. Lost your job, can't find one, have college tuition to pay back. Too f11cking bad.

Only the smart and the lucky deserve help. Oh wait they don't need it. We shouldn't help anyone!

:sarcasm:

[Capitalocracy]

14. In the case of al-Awlaki's son...

they didn't make much of an effort to make the distinction, I think.

According to Greenwald's article, apparently they either thought... or were attempting to make us believe... that he was 21, which shows either a brutal disregard for the truth in their effort to justify their actions or very questionable intelligence used to make a decision to execute a U.S. citizen with no trial.

And on edit: if you're a 15 or 16-year-old who's been dragged to Yemen with your al Qaeda-supporting father, regardless of what goes on in your head and whether you totally agree with them or you decide you don't, what are you going to do? Where are you going to go?

[alarimer]

21. It is an extra-judicial execution no matter how you slice it.

And no matter how Obama tries to justify this, it is completely, unconscionably and completely immoral and Obama should be tried in the Hague for it. This country has completely lost its moral center if the killing of any American anywhere without a trial can be justified by anyone for any reason.

[Fumesucker]

17. As a practical matter a person becomes responsible for his own actions when he falls out of the PTB.

The lower one is on the socioeconomic scale the more responsible one is for one's own actions, at the very top responsibility is a totally unknown concept while at the bottom one is responsible even for shit one didn't do.

[daleo]

20. Invisible hands do the dirty work of the rich, so they are never responsible

The poor, on the other hand, are responsible for choosing their parents poorly.

[JVS]

19. Most 16 year old kids are unable to break away from their families and fend for themselves

I'd imagine the logistics of doing this would be even more difficult if your father took you to Yemen, of all places. Even if you do recognize that your dad is a "bad guy" where would you go and to whom would you be able to turn?