In China, self-immolations add radical bent to Tibetan protests

[ellisonz]

In China, self-immolations add radical bent to Tibetan protests
Nine suicides by young Buddhists in Sichuan province have unnerved the Chinese government and given momentum to the Tibetan movement.



Tibetan people in New Delhi rally to express solidarity with Buddhists in Tibet. (Tsering Topgyal, Associated Press / October 23, 2011)

By Barbara Demick, Los Angeles Times
October 23, 2011
Reporting from Beijing—

Shopkeepers peer out from storefronts festooned with traditional Tibetan prayer flags at platoons of armed police, some carrying an unusual addition to their riot regalia: fire extinguishers.

A string of self-immolations by young Buddhist monks in Sichuan province is unnerving the Chinese government and giving a new, more radical momentum to the Tibetan protest movement.

On Monday, the ninth young Tibetan — and the first woman — killed herself in the small town of Aba by self-immolation in a protest against Chinese rule. She was identified by Tibetan exile groups as 20-year-old Tenzin Wangmo, a Buddhist nun.

A 19-year-old monk had set himself on fire two days earlier in the same town, which is near the Kiriti monastery, one of the largest Tibetan centers in China and the center of the recent unrest. In both cases, the monks shouted slogans calling for freedom of religion and the return of the exiled Dalai Lama to Tibet.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china-tibet-20111023,0,840542.story

The PRC is going as far as to "in response to protests in the monasteries, authorities have at times cut off water and electricity and installed police booths inside the monasteries." - If unrest spirals it could look something like the: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Tibetan_unrest

:-(

[ZombieHorde]

1. Self-immolation is a hard-core way to protest.

I hope they get some desired results from their efforts.

[ellisonz]

2. Somehow I doubt the PRC is going to back off.

[The Magistrate]

3. The Age Of These People Is A Problem,Sir

Just as in the question of young people engaged in suicide bombing, there is legitimate question how much of the motivation results from careful 'grooming' by older ideologues.

[ellisonz]

6. Suicide bombing kills others.

The Dalai Lama disapproves of such acts and of self-immolation.

[The Magistrate]

7. Of Course He Disapproves Of This,Sir

He is probably not remotely in charge of an active 'Tibetian resistance' movement at present.

The point is not whether others are killed, it is whether the action is wholly voluntary on the part of the person who performs it. There is reason to question how much of these actions on the part of young people is the result of their own volition, and how much manipulation and pressure from monastic leadership has been brought to bear on them to produce the fiery results.

[ellisonz]

8. The point is that the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy is against such acts.

These young monks and nuns are defiant because they see no hope in continued compliance.

Do you have any evidence that they are doing this against their will or true interest?

[The Magistrate]

9. Which Elements Of the Hierarchy, Sir?

Those in exile or those still in-country?

Suicide is an extraordinary act, particularly suicide for political calculation, and by such a painful method. It is not a safe assumption such actions are purely voluntary, that there is not manipulation and grooming by elder leaders. Monasteries in the region also function as orphanages; certainly some young monks and nuns know only the monastery and its elders: the religious context also offers possible powerful incentives of an otherworldly nature, splendid re-incarnations and the like, promised to those willing to undertake such actions. No real evidence exists either way at this distance, but these considerations stand to reason, human nature, and history in analogous circumstances.

If this were being done by master monks in their sixties, that would be something else again,but so long as it is novices, children, it is suspect to me.

[ellisonz]

10. Both. There is not such a divide as you would think. Tibetans remain unified for a free Tibet.

Why believers in a free Tibet set fire to themselves
Published On Thu Oct 20 2011
Rick Westhead/THE TORONTO STAR
Image
By Rick Westhead South Asia Bureau

“In Tibet, there is no freedom of speech, of movement, nothing,” said Penpa Tsering, speaker of the Tibetan government in exile. “But the world is too consumed to notice, there’s too much going on. Our job outside Tibet is to make sure the sacrifices do not go meaningless.”

Tsering says he has an 8-year-old daughter, and if the day comes when she says she wants to commit self-immolation, “I’ll be very supportive; it’s her choice. As long as she doesn’t do it in front of me.”

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There’s even worry that Tibetans living outside Tibet will use major world events such as the upcoming G20 summit in Cannes, France, as a stage for such a charged and final act of protest.

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Self-immolation is a controversial issue in Buddhism. Some Buddhists believe that an ancient text called the Lotus Sutra describes a medicine king making an offering of his own body to the Buddha by setting himself on fire. Though some have argued the text is metaphorical, others have taken it literally and used it to justify self-immolation.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1073020--why-believers-in-a-free-tibet-set-fire-to-themselves

The Dalai Lama has not spoken on the topic of self-immolation and remains committed to the Middle Way: http://www.dalailama.com/messages/middle-way-approach

[The Magistrate]

19. Mr. Tsering, Sir,Sounds Like A 'Groomer' Par Excellance....

Perfectly happy to raise a daughter to do this, yet somehow manages to keep himself un-drenched in gasoline and away from matches....

[ellisonz]

20. They're worried about cultural elmination.

You would be too if you were Tibetan...

What the PRC has done to Tibet is horrid.

People do not self-immolate without a hell of a lot of motivation. The argument you're making is a fallacious one - that they are not actively choosing to do this - it's not like the monks are ordering them to have gasoline poured onto their bodies and let afire.

Besides - they believe in reincarnation.:evilfrown:

[The Magistrate]

21. He Hangs Himself With His Own Mouth, Sir

And in fact gives with his words every reason to suspect my view, that older people are manipulating and enticing younger people whom they have emotional holds on to do this. It is not a question of straight order or force; it is a question of selecting and manipulating people into assets deployed in service of a purpose.

[ellisonz]

22. You're doubting their sincerity in loving their homeland.

They're willing to die for the freedom of Tibet - that say's a lot - they are hurting no one else :eyes:

[The Magistrate]

23. The Man You Cited Made My Case, Sir

This is most likely the result of emotional manipulation by very calculating authority figures, preying upon young and emotionally vulnerable persons to some degree under their control,just as young suicide bombers and the like are groomed by movements which use that means of assailing their opponents. Do not imagine their is anything particularly holy or clean about the Tibetian resistance; that would be as foolish as imagining there was anything particularly just or clean about the Chinese colonization of the region.

[ellisonz]

24. This is incorrect, sir. There is always a difference between right and wrong.

You would seem to think that Penpa Tsering and I like the thought of self-immolation - we do not - but we do not believe these young people's sacrifice ought to be in vain; that a better world is not possible. Sir, you are jaded and it seems to have been bringing a lack of hope that change can happen in life to your writings on this discussion board (I remember our last dialogue on the merits of posting the public information of Officer Bologna's family - which were deleted because of your temper)...I like your thoughts but they are not of optimism.

Master Pangloss taught the metaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology. He could prove to admiration that there is no effect without a cause; and, that in this best of all possible worlds, the Baron's castle was the most magnificent of all castles, and My Lady the best of all possible baronesses.

"It is demonstrable," said he, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eaten, therefore we eat pork all the year round: and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best."

Candide listened attentively and believed implicitly, for he thought Miss Cunegund excessively handsome, though he never had the courage to tell her so. He concluded that next to the happiness of being Baron of Thunder-ten-tronckh, the next was that of being Miss Cunegund, the next that of seeing her every day, and the last that of hearing the doctrine of Master Pangloss, the greatest philosopher of the whole province, and consequently of the whole world.

- Voltaire, Ch. 1. Candide

Some wisdom:

"Human beings by nature want happiness and do not want suffering. With that
feeling everyone tries to achieve happiness and tries to get rid of suffering, and everyone has the basic right to do this. In this way, all here are the same, whether rich or poor, educated or uneducated, Easterner or Westerner, believer or non-believer, and within believers whether Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and so on. Basically, from the viewpoint of real human value we are all the same."-- His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from "Kindness, Clarity, and Insight."

"Before we can generate compassion and love, it is important to have a clear
understanding of what we understand compassion and love to be. In simple terms, compassion and love can be defined as positive thoughts and feelings that give rise to such essential things in life as hope, courage, determination, and inner strength. In the Buddhist tradition, compassion and love are seen as two aspects of the same thing: Compassion is the wish for another being to be free from suffering; love is wanting them to have happiness."-- His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from "The Compassionate Life",

"Sometimes we feel that one individual's action is very insignificant. Then we think, of course, that effects should come from channeling or from a unifying movement. But the movement of the society, community or group of people means joining individuals. Society means a collection of individuals, so that initiative must come from individuals. Unless each individual develops a sense of responsibility, the whole community cannot move. So therefore, it is very essential that we should not feel that individual effort is meaningless- you should not feel that way. We should make an effort."-- His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'The Dalai Lama's Book of Love and Compassion',

"With the realization of ones own potential and self-confidence in ones ability, one can build a better world. According to my own experience, self-confidence is very important. That sort of confidence is not a blind one; it is an awareness of ones own potential. On that basis, human beings can transform themselves by increasing the good qualities and reducing the negative qualities."--His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'The Dalai Lama's Book of Wisdom'.

"Three qualities enable people to understand the teachings: objectivity, which means an open mind; intelligence, which is the critical faculty to discern the real meaning by checking the teachings of Buddha; and interest and commitment, which means enthusiasm." -- His Holiness the Dalai Lama, from 'The Path to Tranquility: Daily Wisdom'.

http://www.bamboointhewind.org/teaching_dalaiquotes.html

[The Magistrate]

25. Mr.Tsering Wants His Daughter To Grow Up And Burn Herself, Sir

He said so, and you quoted him.

This is not ground on which you really want to argue about differences between right and wrong with me....

[ellisonz]

26. He said that was her choice to make. You're misquoting him.

“In Tibet, there is no freedom of speech, of movement, nothing,” said Penpa Tsering, speaker of the Tibetan government in exile. “But the world is too consumed to notice, there’s too much going on. Our job outside Tibet is to make sure the sacrifices do not go meaningless.”

Tsering says he has an 8-year-old daughter, and if the day comes when she says she wants to commit self-immolation, “I’ll be very supportive; it’s her choice. As long as she doesn’t do it in front of me.”

[The Magistrate]

27. Stay Out Of Politics, Sir, And Never Play cards For Money....

"Candy-Mountain, Charley!"

[Bonobo]

4. Can you imagine if China killed a 16 year old Canadian-Tibetan with a hellfire missile in Montreal?

That is, after all, what the US did recently with the 16 year old Denver born American son of Al Alwaki.

[ellisonz]

5. Can you imagine if that 16 year olds father was planning to blow up an airliner?

[Bonobo]

11. Answering a question with a question is never a good sign of a strong argument.

Besides, your "point" is idiotic. Are your saying a child should be killed because of the "plans" of the father EVEN if you could determine what the father's plans were (which you can't).

[ellisonz]

13. Why do you feel the need to change the subject?

The topic is Tibet. If you do not care about the aspirations of the Tibetan people please feel free to debate that topic elsewhere...Now if you want to justify the People's Republic of China's invasion and repression of Tibet please go ahead and make your agenda plain.

I'm not going to take your flaming seriously because it's already been debated ad nauseum - and thus the rhetorical question.

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply.<1> Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to think about what the (often obvious) answer to the question must be. When a speaker states, "How much longer must our people endure this injustice?", no formal answer is expected. Rather, it is a rhetorical device used by the speaker to assert or deny something (e.g., "Can you do anything right?"). While sometimes amusing and even humorous, rhetorical questions are rarely meant for pure, comedic effect. A carefully crafted question can, if delivered well, persuade an audience to believe in the position(s) of the speaker.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

:argh:

[Bonobo]

17. No one asked you to answer my post. You chose to... and did so poorly. nt

[ellisonz]

18. Your posted commented on my original post. I don't do drive-bys.

[Bonobo]

16. self-delete.

[xchrom]

12. Tibet is not china. So it's in Tibet - that this 'radical' element is added..Nt

[ellisonz]

14. Youtube video: Tibet Burning!!! Situation in Tibet spiraling out of control

Important announcement video from Lhaksam Media with english and Tibetan version, so please watch this video and spread this message. Thank you so much!

TIBET BURNING
A Global Call for Action on 11.2.11

North America Action Cities: Washington DC, San Francisco, Vancouver BC and Ottawa

The Regional Tibetan Youth Congress chapters in North American calls on all Tibetans and supporters for a Global Day of Action on November 2, 2011 - Mass Protests will be organized in Washington DC, San Francisco, Vancouver BC and Ottawa.

(Save the Date: MORE DETAILS TO FOLLOW)

Similar Nov 2nd Global Actions are being organized in India, Nepal and Europe

More details: http://tibetburning.tibetanyouthcongress.org/index.php
Download Posters: http://tibetburning.tibetanyouthcongress.org/photos8.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTlCLSsUmik

[ellisonz]

15. Petition to Call for Global Diplomatic Intervention on Tibet

I Will Stand Up
for Tibet

Nine young Tibetans have set fire to themselves in eastern Tibet since March 2011; seven since 26 September. Five have died including a nun. These unprecedented and truly desperate acts are a cry to the outside world for help.

Seven of these self-immolations are linked to Kirti Monastery in Ngaba, one of the largest and most influential monastic institutions in Tibet. China’s merciless and violent crackdown in Ngaba and throughout Tibet is intensifying Tibetan grievances and exacerbating the resentment and desperation felt across Tibet

This growing tragedy, if left unchecked, could spiral even further into a nation-wide crisis, unless the world acts now.

The international community, both citizens and governments, must Stand Up for Tibet. Global diplomatic intervention now will save Tibetan lives.

We demand a coordinated international response by world leaders to condemn China’s repressive measures in Ngaba and across Tibet, and to institute multi-lateral mechanisms to advocate for the Tibetan people. Most immediately, we call on China to withdraw its security forces from Ngaba and across Tibet now, and stop the ongoing harassment and torture of monks.

http://standupfortibet.org/enough/dk-speakup-petition-1/#