How long before the Occupation Movement fades away?

[Liberal_in_LA]

Poll question: How long before the Occupation Movement fades away?

I know many of you are just as surprised as I am that the OWS movement has lasted so long and spread so far.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[randome]

2. Without a targeted, sound bite message...

...directed at the politicians who failed to do their jobs, not the bankers who got away with everything they could, OWS will fade.

[RZM]

3. I don't think it's going to be forgotten anytime soon

But numbers will probably dwindle as the weather turns. It's an open question whether it will be renewed with equal or greater vigor in the late winter/early spring. My personal opinion is that it will grow again next year but probably will not achieve the same numbers or energy it has now.

OWS didn't generate what it stands for - it is more a manifestation of feelings that were already there. This particular manifestation probably does have a relatively short shelf life, but the ideas behind it don't.

This is one way in which the Tea Party and OWS are alike. I don't think the Tea Party as we know it will be around 5 years from now. But the people who support the Tea Party will still be around and will still have the same positions/ideas/concerns they do know. 5 years from now those ideas might not be manifested in a Tea Party, but they will still be there.

[robdogbucky]

4. A founder of ‘Occupy Wall Street’ talks about movement’s origin and what comes next

A founder of ‘Occupy Wall Street’ talks about movement’s origin and what comes next

...Well, there were a lot of things that were happening. We were all very inspired by the Arab Spring. I think also a lot of us have been disappointed by what’s happened with the Obama Administration. I know I can speak for myself that I was really hopeful that we would have some change. I knew it wouldn’t be perfect, that not every dream we’d have would be answered, but that we wouldn’t really be seeing the man who promised to close Guantanamo, keep it opened indefinitely, extend wars, give tax cuts to the rich, you know, do all these things you’d expect Bush to do...

...There was a Time Magazine poll released earlier that said we are apparently the most popular political movement in the country — 54% of Americans support Occupy Wall Street at least somewhat and view it at least somewhat favorably and that makes us really happy. Even though only a few thousand people can show up on any given day so far, we still have the spirit of a whole lot of other people with us...

...The best moment — one night while we waited for our eviction that never came — was listening to people take turns reading letters of support that folks had sent us. It really reminded us as to why we stood in the rain and got soaking wet for hours that night; that there are people all over this country who needs us to stand up for them.

None of the people from the beginning thought it would get this big. We didn’t even think we’d make it to the first Tuesday. And when we made it to the second Saturday, I was in shock that we had survived that long. And when I heard that 54% of Americans support us or at least think of our movement favorably, that also shocked me and that really gives us hope.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/24/a-founder-of-occupy-wall-street-talks-about-movements-origin-and-what-comes-next/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story%29

[fredamae]

5. OWS has been at Least 40 Years

in the making. Staying power? Yes, unless and until the Corporations and Dirty Pols surrender. They have ursurped Our wealth until we have nothing left for the wealthiest/Corps/Bankers at the top to steal.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. If you did not see it coming

Chances are slim you will be able to predict its future. So why the need to try?

[Liberal_in_LA]

8. good point

[coalition_unwilling]

7. Based on the set of 'Provisional Demands' announced by the

Demands Committee at the GA for Occupy Los Angeles last night, it's not much of a stretch to see OWS engender a new "Labor" or "Progressive" party with a pronounced working-class emphasis and advocacy. Of course, the Dem Party could always choose to shift leftward to co-opt OWS. Maybe that should have been a poll choice? :)

[Liberal_in_LA]

9. yes, that would have been a good poll choice.

[RZM]

16. Actually I think the idea of a viable new party is a stretch

The Democrats have been doing what they do for a long time and they are not likely to stand and watch while a good chunk of their base torn away. The Party establishment will always be several moves ahead of anyone attempting to challenge their hegemony and they will take counter measures long before such an outcome is a real possibility. I'm not sure exactly how they would do that, but I'm fairly confident that they would do it. Maybe a new party will be created, but I don't think it will ever be viable. Probably it would be simply be a reconfiguration of those on the left who already oppose the Democratic party (Greens, etc.). I don't see any tectonic shifts in the two party system on the horizon.

That doesn't mean those shifts won't EVER happen. I think they will eventually, but they won't happen soon and certainly not because of OWS.

[coalition_unwilling]

42. Those are some excellent points you raise, I'll be the first to admit. And

I'm certainly no political scientist, merely an interested layperson and activist. But in 8 visits to Occupy Los Angeles, I have not heard one word of support for the Democratic Party or any of its officeholders (nor, in fairness, have I heard any support for any Repuke other than nutjob Ron Paul). There is a veritable cacophany of voices at OLA and it's difficult to see exactly how those voices would ever agree on a discrete platform. However, the set of demands I heard articulated at last night's General Assembly struck me as a viable platform any progressive could embrace.

[RZM]

44. I certainly believe your assessments of Occupy LA

I don't think you're seeing much support for the two parties at any occupy event. But I wonder how many people at Occupy LA were already third party voters or non-voters? And of those there who have voted for Democrats in the past, how many will no longer do so? My guess is very few.

[flamingdem]

47. I hope they vote or they're part of the problem

If we lose to Romney they will fade to dust quickly.

[socialist_n_TN]

60. Hey coalition (or anyone), is there a web site with that list of

demands? It sounds like Occupy LA is ahead of OWS in the matter of SOLUTIONS to the problems.

[coalition_unwilling]

70. The website does not help much. You get an abbreviated version

of the list by clicking on the Minutes link for the GA from October 23.

It was very dark by the time the list of demands was read and I think the Minutes person could not type as quickly as the person reading the demands.

Here's what I wrote down - (ellipses indicate gaps):

1) An end to U.S. military occupations and imperialism and closure of foreign bases

. . . .

2) An end to corporate personhood (a reference, I think, to the USSC "Citizens United" decision)

. . . .

3) Public financing of elections

. . . .

4) Funding for massive public works program to put the unemployed to work

. . . .

5) Commitment to end homelessness and provide housing for all citizens

. . . .

6) Give power back to the people

*****************
The list received universal acclaim from the GA. I hasten to add that this was touted as a 'Preliminary list of Objectives.'

You can find out more about Occupy LA with this link:

http://occupylosangeles.org/

I'm trying to secure a list of the demands in writing from the Demands and Objectives Committee but doing it remotely is proving challenging. Stay tuned :)

[socialist_n_TN]

87. Thanks. That gives me a little clearer view of

what the makeup of the group is. Definitely left populist and probably the best we can hope for now. I don't disagree with any of the demands as stated.

And thanks for your work on this. It's much appreciated. :)

[a simple pattern]

50. It wouldn't be a shift leftward, though.

It would be a head fake and we'd do well to remember that

[KansDem]

10. As the song says...

"Forever and a Day"

With apologies to the Gershwins:

It's very clear our movement's here to stay
Not for a year but forever and a day
The radio and the telephone and the movies that we know
May just be passing fancies and in time may go
But oh my dear
Our movement's here to stay
Together we're going a long, long way
In time the Rockies may tumble
Gibraltar may crumble
They're only made of clay
But our movement's here to stay

For a refresher:
Frank Sinatra: Our Love is Here to Stay

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

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[ThomWV]

12. It will be getting very cold in much of the US in the next couple of months.

[TBF]

14. For folks who are homeless that really doesn't change their conditions now does it? nt

[ThomWV]

37. Probably not but for those who aren't it sure will. That's not really the point though

I think they will fade back a good bit over the winter. That however will embolden the predators and things will get back to our neo-norm of political stagnation/corruption. Then come spring, along with the intensity of the campaigning going way up so does the efficacy of open protest. So yeah, I think it will back down for a while but hold on to your hat come spring and summer, its going to be something!

[Romulox]

13. Without coherent goals or aims, it is petering out now, imo. nt

[TBF]

15. What part of "economic equality" do you not understand? nt

[Romulox]

17. "Economic equality" isn't possible under a laissez-faire economic model.

So, if it's to be "economic equality" that is the goal here, some interests that putatively part of the "99%" will be threatened.

It's not possible to lead without making choices.

[TBF]

19. Your comment was goals/aims - "economic equality" is the goal

How we get there would be the second part of the question. My response - get rid of the capitalism.

[Romulox]

21. No. That's an abstract statement of principle. The *hard choices* needed to get there

are what make up the actual goals of a movement. "Peace" is not enough. How will you end all the wars? "Equality" is not enough. How will you make them share?

When Alec Baldwin and OFA show up with their tents, you know this isn't about "anti-Capitalism". When Unilever (Ben & Jerry's) cater the event, you KNOW it ain't about "anti-Capitalism". So I'm not sure I agree that "economic equality" is what the ultimate goal is here.

[TBF]

33. I see a lot of folks trying to Co-opt the movement, but this movement's goal is to address

economic inequality - why in the world do you think they would call themselves the 99% if it wasn't? You can try to obscure that message, and many are trying, but that is the heart of this.

If you are so convinced I am wrong what do you think the goal is?

[RZM]

20. That's a fairly broad slogan though, not a plan

If you surveyed 2000 random people with the question: 'Do you support economic equality' you would probably get a good number of people saying 'yes.'

But that's not really saying much . . . its merely an expression of the general appeal that such a slogan has. You start coming up with concrete plans and ideas and all of a sudden you have serious differences of opinion.

Just look at the trouble Cain is running into with his '999' thing. The idea that the current tax system is bad is widely shared among Republicans, but as people are taking a closer look at his plan, many are finding that they don't like it. Many more Republicans would say 'Taxes are too high' than 'I support 999.'

[Romulox]

25. Just to amplify your point. THIS is the problem when you claim to speak for 99%...

99% of people don't agree on much except for generalized principles. As RZM says, once specifics are discussed, schizms erupt. For example--we all want "peace", but I want to withdraw our troops, while someone else wants to escalate the bombing! :wow:

[TBF]

64. He said goal - not plan. Until I gave him the goal that is - then it became

"ok what's your plan". I'll tell you the same thing I told him (which you should know since you're playing tag-team today). My goal would be get rid of the capitalism. Other people are going to have different thoughts on how to fix it. The most important thing right now is that everyone is out there resisting, and I'm not going to shut them down by demanding that they write a thesis for me today.

But you and your buddy are determined to do just that aren't you? Shut them down that is.

[RZM]

73. Please. I'm not trying to shut down a damn thing

I don't know about you, but I'm a big fan of free speech. If people want to camp out on Wall St. and peacefully register their opposition to the status quo, I say 'more power.'

My comment was more about the fact that 'we're against the system' or 'we want economic equality' isn't going to cut it forever. Lots of people don't like the system and want a fairer distribution of wealth. The sentiments alone are all well and good, but at some point you have to start moving toward achieving them if you want this to be a long term thing that actually effects change. I think that point is approaching soon. OWS has been around for over a month now and soon the weather will drive many people off the streets. I think those who are committed to this movement would do well to go into the winter with a set of concrete goals that can be worked towards indoors.

[TBF]

74. They are doing just fine. The winter will drive some indoors for sure,

but they will come out with renewed purpose in the spring (particularly with an election coming up). It's extremely uncomfortable for the status quo that they are not playing by the "accepted" rules and I give them credit for doing things their way. The status quo can shove their demands, and that goes for any apologists on this site as well.

[RZM]

76. Why the hostility?

First of all, when it comes to loose-knit groups that exist outside of the power structure, these ARE the accepted rules.

Second, there's nothing wrong with protesting or even protesting with a relatively vague (if salient) message.

Third, it's just my opinion that the movement needs to move beyond what they are doing now if they want to do more than just register their views. I'm not issuing demands, just stating my opinion.

[TBF]

78. Disagree with your characterization -

and I'm not about to change my language to suit your sensibilities. The movement is doing fine, your concern is noted.

[RZM]

82. LOL. I knew that was coming

I had a pre-emptive thing in my last reply about how you would label my opinion as 'concern trolling' but I deleted it in order to be polite. I should have kept it in.

Your post crystallizes a sad trend in internet commentary that works against spirited debate the civil exchange of ideas . . . this is the notion that a different opinion is not just that, but actually a front masking a devilish agenda that seeks to destroy what you hold dear.

Of course, there really are people on message boards who do such things. But to quickly label a dissenter from your own opinions as such just demonstrates how far paranoid narcissism has embedded itself in internet culture.

My opinion on OWS is different from yours. It doesn't conceal a radically different agenda . . . it's just a different take from yours. That shouldn't be so hard to accept.

[TBF]

84. Blah, blah, blah.

Being "polite" and "reasonable" are things the establishment uses to keep folks in check. That is what continues to be great about OWS - no bowing to the status quo. I stand by with my support of their methods as it is driving the polite, reasonable folks crazy.

[RZM]

86. Right. So politeness is now another tool the power structure uses to keep us all in check

Who knew that all this time my mother was working for the powers that be?

LOL.

[Zorra]

22. Here, hopefully you can get the point of OWS from this:

[Romulox]

24. OK. We know what we are protesting. So...what are our (SPECIFIC) goals?

:hi:

[Zorra]

26. How about: To put an end to economic injustice? nt

[Romulox]

27. That's a little too narrow for my tastes. How about just protesting against "bad stuff"?

:hi:

[Zorra]

49. Obviously, a large number of people get it. I'm genuinely sorry

that you don't. What may seem to be ambiguous to you is crystal clear to many others.

Honestly, I also have this same frustrating difficulty trying make points clear to conservatives all the time, even when I have factual material waving in their faces. Sometimes I just can't seem to explain it in the black and white terms they seem to need in order for them to be able to understand things.

Apparently, the fault is mine, I apologize.

And lots of people don't get the LGBT or women's rights movement either. They somehow can't grasp the fact that we are not treated as equal citizens.

There's little we can do about this.

If the goals of OWS are not clear to someone reading and posting on what is self-defined as a progressive board by now, the odds are that it never will be, unless of course, someone is being deliberately obtuse because they are afraid of the changes OWS has brought about and will bring about, or have some other agenda for repeating the RW media meme that OWS does not have specific goals.

Good luck! Hope you will eventually get it, and join our movement.

Peace
:hi:

[Romulox]

53. I'm sorry, but we live in a world in which ideas must be translated into action

in order to have any significance beyond the symbolic.

Being against "economic inequality" (so long as no follow-up questions are involved,) is not a call to action.

And insinuating anyone who DARE disagrees with you is a conservative (or a homophobe?) It smacks of desperation, and is uncalled for under any circumstances. Shameful. :hi:

[Zorra]

55. Honestly, it is not the fact that you disagree with me that

leads me to believe that you may be somewhat conservative in your thought processes.

It is because you cannot seem to grasp what is so obvious to the vast majority of progressives. An attribute that I find common in folks with conservative thought processes and political beliefs.

I'll give it one last shot:

What were these folks protesting for? What were their goals?



The attainment of Civil Rights, wouldn't you agree? Civil rights includes a broad spectrum of issues.

OWS is protesting for the attainment of economic justice. Economic justice includes a broad spectrum of issues.

I can't make it any clearer than that, I'm sorry.

[Romulox]

56. You're doubling down on insults, when you should be doubling down on explication.

"OWS is protesting for the attainment of economic justice. Economic justice includes a broad spectrum of issues.

I can't make it any clearer than that, I'm sorry."

It's because you simply can't explain something you yourself do not understand; to whit, specifically what "economic justice" means to 99% of Americans. :hi:

[Zorra]

61. LOL! OK, whatever... congratulations, you win.

Much peace and love to you!

[Romulox]

62. I know. Whatever. Discussion on a message board? Likely homophobic, but in any event conservative

:silly:

[LanternWaste]

58. I imagine what we may define as "too narrow" is more often than not...

I imagine what we may define as "too narrow" is more often than not, predicated on our own dogmatic intransigence...




Life, Liberty & The Pursuit of Happiness being the pretty "good stuff." Same coin, other side, sans rationalizations...

[Romulox]

59. Um, that was *sarcasm*.

And if you support this thing, then no apple cart is any danger of being overturned. :shrug:

[randome]

29. How about increased financial regulations, to start with?

How about eliminating some of the more esoteric 'lottery-like' transactions?

[randome]

28. If you have to show a cartoon...

...to get your point across, you have effectively lost the ability to deliver a message.

[Zorra]

35. LOL! You gotta be kidding me...

Have you ever noticed how many cartoons people post here at DU to make a point? Like on a daily basis? Like, right now in GD?

I realize that some people have difficulty understanding the messages purveyed through the various forms of art.

Some people don't get Shakespeare at all.

Making a point through art is, historically, a long standing liberal tradition.

[randome]

40. I know that.

But making a point to politicians requires something easier for them to understand. Like a slogan. Or a soundbite. Or even a battle cry.

I can't see holding up a gigantic sign with a cartoon on it will send much of a message.

[alfredo]

34. In my city it is growing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alfredo_tomato/sets/72157627666611013/

[coalition_unwilling]

79. At last night's General Assembly at Occupy Los Angeles, the

Demands and Objectives Committee presented a list of preliminary demands, including an end to imperialism and closure of all foreign military bases, massive program of new government infrastructure spending to create jobs and reduce unemployment, and a new commitment to end homelessness. It was an impressive list and greeted by universal acclaim by the GA.

N.B. yesterday was day 23 of Occupy LA. Given the new model of consensu building under which all who participate are operating, I think it's pretty remarkable what has already been accomplished.

[Zorra]

18. With all due respect, anyone who is surprised that OWS

has lasted so long has obviously not been paying attention.

Consider killing your television.

[Charronxyz]

23. The economic situation will not get any better...

...in fact it's going to get worse so it guarantees that the OWS movement will go on in one form or another.

[Javaman]

30. If they are smart they will morph into a political party. nt

[Modern_Matthew]

31. Long after the cynics die off. nt

[jwirr]

32. There is only one aspect of OWS that I think may be in danger of

fading away. Camping out in the middle of winter is not practical and may end with daily protests replacing them. The form may change but the anger and the action will not.

[flamingdem]

36. I think it depends largely on how they integrate allies

like unions, military, older people, people of color, democrats.

If they alienate any of those groups they will not last.

[the other one]

38. I am the (currently) 54%

:hi:

[dogknob]

39. Depends on how many cynical, lazy people can't get out of their funk

[ileus]

41. When it gets cold, or Ipads go on sale.

As great of an idea the movement may be it's not much longer. I feel it may come back to life in the spring, but it won't last past the holiday season...

[Modern_Matthew]

43. "Ipads go on sale." Real cute. Which RW publication did you steal that from? nt

[truevote]

45. A decade or longer

OWS has staying power. I coordinate with several different Occupy groups. They are well organized, there is no in-fighting and no pissing contests. On top of this, this is not being curtailed into a music subculture movement like the 1960s protest culture OWS so often gets compared to. The ramifications of this movement will echo for at least a decade.

[randome]

54. A decade? Really?

And one of the poll choices is that OWS will be around 'for years'.

This all presupposes that nothing will change in that time and that protesters are perfectly content to spend a good part of the rest of their lives basically homeless and unemployed.

'Years', huh? I really doubt that.

[snooper2]

92. It will be a generational thing, so which OWS camp were you born in?

:P

[H2O Man]

46. Other

"Well, love is love, not fade away." -- Rolling Stones

[CTyankee]

48. movements like these never stay the same but signal change in other

manifestations. Look back in history. This happens when the people have had enough. They tend to take to the streets out of frustration and rage. Then other ways open up to them.

Occupy New Haven has now started a sustainability project to keep things going in the present but also to herald a new day of self sustaining economic models.

Nothing stays the same, but a new political sensibility is emerging...

[Earth_First]

51. How many more polls or threads regarding this issue must be made?

:shrug:

Looking forward to it's demise?

[Zorra]

52. Huh? What do you mean?11?

:rofl:

just kidding

[Uncle Joe]

57. I chose that it will be around for years but it does have the potential to morph into a new party if

the Democratic Party doesn't move dramatically to the left, I don't believe there is any hope left for the Republican Party.

Thanks for the thread, Liberal_in_LA.

[woo me with science]

63. Wait 'til the continued bailouts crash the economy again.

Wait 'til Europe really crashes, too. Everything they are doing is stopgap.

Wait 'til the Super Committee moves ahead to impose austerity on Americans.

There are no real solutions being implemented yet.

None of this is compatible with OWS's going away.

[socialist_n_TN]

66. I definitely agree with you about what's coming down the

pike. And the ATTITUDES that make up OWS are not going to change with all the new shit hitting the fan. Whether this stays the same or morphs into something else, either more radical or more co-opted, is an open question at this point.

[Fire Walk With Me]

65. How do you possibly think this thread can help? You could have spent this time

making a donation to #Occupy.

[AmandaMae]

67. "Over" doesn't necessarily mean "forgotten".

I think regardless of whether the actual occupations come to an end in a few weeks or a few months, the movement will have a lasting impact. The media, politicians, have all been forced to acknowledge the inequality in this country and make it a part of the discussion.

[workinclasszero]

68. How long will it take to tame or abolish wall street?

How long until the 1% repent of their viscous class war against the 99%?

How long until real participatory democracy as in the OWS camps spreads into every community?

How long until the homeless, the hungry, the hurting and lonely have places to go other than the OWS camps?

How long before the neocon wars of empire are stopped and the military industrial complex is defeated?

How long until there is universal health care for all in the USA?

How long until hard work is once again rewarded with a middle class life and job?

I think OWS will be around quite a while.

[TBF]

75. Excellent response. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

69. Almost everyone already agrees with the basic complaints OWS is raising

Whether OWS is in itself the great uprising is too early to say. But at the very least it is already inspiring a sea change in mainstream discussion. For more than 30 years now - the issues of poverty, income disparity and control of the government by the corporations have taken place only on the margins on respectable opinion.

The greatest advantage that the OWS movement has is that almost everyone already agrees with their mot basic issue - that democracy has been completely corrupted by all major political parties and institutions. And it has become so obvious to even the deaf, dumb and blind that the system is utterly rigged in favor of the rich who are getting richer at the expense of everyone else who is getting poorer - Everyone already agrees. OWS has gotten people talking about it again. It is already getting people to believe that it is possible to change it.

[robdogbucky]

71. So, Liberal, you can see how things are around here

What do you think now?

[Liberal_in_LA]

85. still not sure. Hard to guage the public based on DUers. I remember how committed DUers

get to topics such as Katrina or BP or something else. Then the next shiny object comes along.

[robdogbucky]

72. It's like this

Occupy Oakland Versus The City and The Media

Zennie Abraham

Executive Producer, Host: The Blog Report With Zennie62


"...It’s clear now that we’re headed to some kind of unfortunate show-down between Occupy Oakland / Occupy Wall Street and the City of Oakland, and this after days of very good relations.

While the City of Oakland has allowed Occupy Oakland / Occupy Wall Street to have basically all of City Hall Plaza and live there, complete with kids and the trappings of a mini-city, all was well, it seemed.

But then the media didn’t get what it wanted in terms of access, and so we had reports like this one from a certain conservative blogger:

snip


...Breitbart TV has made numerous YouTube videos under different spam channels to communicate the idea that there’s nothing but bad stuff going on at Occupy Oakland – especially with respect to the media...


http://blog.sfgate.com/abraham/2011/10/24/occupy-oakland-versus-the-city-and-the-media/




READ THIS ARTICLE, you will be glad you did.




Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!



robdogbucky

[slackmaster]

77. The factionization and internal divisions that will ultimately kill it are already apparent

I want my free pony, and world peace.

[dogknob]

80. Your cynical viewpoint is becoming less and less relevant n/t

[slackmaster]

81. I'm sure it will continue to become less and less relevant in the eyes of those who...

...are pre-determined see any outcome as a "victory."

[TNLib]

83. Depends what happens next

If the economy gets worse I think the movement will pick up steam. If the job market picks up and people aren't hurting as much the movement may fizzle out. With winter setting in I'm not sure if people will be camping out as much but that doesn't mean there won't be weekly protest marches.

[ZombieHorde]

88. I have no idea. nt

[Township75]

89. It will die off after the 2012 elections.

I fear it will be usurped and used as a get out the vote effort for Democrats. I have already read a few posts here relating to OWS and how Obama may be bad, but the Repubs will be worse. That will be the message shoved into the movement.

[Phentex]

90. Until the 12th of never and

that's a long long time. :)

[Liberal_in_LA]

91. I hope so!

:-)

[AsahinaKimi]

93. I really don't know..

however,... its scary to think people may become disenchanted to the point of giving up, seeing they are overwhelmed by officials and corporations who want this put down as quickly as possible.