Commodity Fetishism. Your thoughts?

[Taverner]

I think this pretty much defines most, if not all, human relationships under Capitalism.

All human relationships go from that of genuine human contact, to that of a consumerist relationship.

FTR, Marxist theory states Commodity Fetishism is: ...the mystification of human relations said to arise out of the growth of market trade, when social relationships between people are expressed as, mediated by and transformed into, objectified relationships between things (commodities and money).

It has gotten to the point that we don't even view each others as separate humans, but mere manifestations of our money, our commodities and our "value" in that setting. Thus, we view a rich person as better than a poor person.

The irony of this all is that Prostitution, the probably the most Capitalistic of all relationships, is illegal under many Capitalist systems. It is a hypocrisy that shows Capitalism for the bald-faced lie that it is.

[redqueen]

1. It's not because of capitalism that prostitution is illegal.

I have many problems with religion, but the curtailment of the commodification of sex which has resulted from religious teachings is not one of them.

[Taverner]

2. The question arises: what is different between the CSW who charges $500 per hour for her work

...and the Electrician who charges $50 per hour for her work

I mean, other than the price differential

[redqueen]

3. The difference is

that in places where selling electrician's services is legal, there is no increase in demand for illegal, harmful, and demeaning electrician's services.

Conveying the idea that selling sex is acceptable drives up demand. Where demand goes up, illegal activity goes up. In this context, 'illegal activity' means trafficked women and children, underage prostitution, and garden variety prostitution (for Johns who refuse to use condoms, like beating women, like engaging in acts in which a legal sex worker would refuse to participate, etc.)

[Taverner]

4. Actually, if there weren't unions to protect the electrician, wages would steadily decrease

Which is pretty demeaning

I am not sure you can make a case for legal prostitution = violence towards women

Pakistan has very little prostitution, but do not think for a minute that there is no violence against women

[redqueen]

5. Decreased wages is not analogous to human trafficking, underage prostitution, etc.

Regardless of what happens in Pakistan or why, in areas where the sale of sex is sanctioned these other crimes increase. Several studies have indicated as much. Hopefully more will be done to continue to make the case against the idea that selling sex is acceptable.

There is a reason that the Swedish model is gaining attention, and why Sweden's neighbors are considering adopting it (or have already adopted it). I hope this trend continues.

[Taverner]

6. But prostitution does not equal human trafficking

Not all CSWs are human chattel, underage, addicted to drugs or even women. Some CSWs get in the business simply because they can make a lot of money quickly.

One should also point out correlation does not equal causation. In places where commercial sex is legal, it is regulated. And when regulated, statistics can be taken on underage CSWs and slavery. I would bet that there are just as many underage CSWs in the US, per capita, that there are in countries where prostitution is legal. They are just able to report on it, we aren't because it's part of the unregulated, black market.

It's like drug legalization. Lots of people may favor Marijuana legalization, but few argue for Methamphetamine legalization. But why? Keeping it illegal brings on more problems than it prevents. Meth labs that toxify the environment, drug violence, pollutants in the drug itself. If all drugs were OTC, then yes, there would be addicts, but at least what they were addicted to would be a known entity.

[redqueen]

7. I never said they were the same thing.

I said demand for the illegal activities increases where the sale of sex is made legal. You can argue that correlation is causation but that's why I mentioned Sweden.

Keeping it illegal does not bring on more problems than it prevents. This is being demonstrated in Sweden (and other countries too, as they catch on), and people who enjoy that the concept of buying sex is still acceptable will just have to live with the consequences of that. I hope the consequences sprad, and soon.

[Taverner]

8. I think we're going to have to "agree to disagree"

As per the illegal activities argument, those increase anytime there is more capital available.

[redqueen]

9. So you're choosing to ignore what's happening in Sweden.

I get it.

[Taverner]

19. Nope - I just think it won't work

It will just drive it underground

I do like how they aren't criminalizing the CSW however...

[redqueen]

20. It is already working.

Yes, when you make things illegal, the people who refuse to comply with the law will form a black market. The fact that this happens is not a justification for keeping things legal if they are unacceptable or harmful to society at large, as I think prostitution is.

[Taverner]

21. I would disagree with you about prostitution

Prostitution is called the "world's oldest profession" for a reason

As for harm to society, there is no data that it contributes to violence towards women. However, there is a direct link with previous abuse, and violence towards women. Abuse, I am convinced, is taught, not chosen.

The kind of profits a CSW can make mean this profession is not going away anytime soon.

Of course, change the system and you change everything. When people aren't constantly rewarded for greed and self interest, everything changes.

True fact: In Cuba, sex, for the longest time, wasn't bartered or sold. The joke was that sex was "Cuba's national passtime." Basically all of the profit motive was removed from pretty much every profession, and people did what they did because they wanted to, not because they could make a quick buck.

[redqueen]

22. Prostitution is the world's oldest profession because men are the dominant group.

"there is no data that it contributes to violence towards women"

http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/prostitutionfacts.html
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvhealt.htm
http://www.nij.gov/journals/255/prostitution_research.html
http://thehousegroup.org/archive/res_five_countries_violence_ptsd.pdf

[Taverner]

25. Yes. Of course. Law Enforcement Agencies. Of course they would say that.

They get a lot of budget out of its illegality

[redqueen]

28. So the social service agencies and academics were invisible?

It seems you are only acknolwedging the things you want to see. I don't see the point in continuing to try to discuss it with you.

[Taverner]

29. This stuck out: "About 80% of women in prostitution have been the victim of a rape"

As long as prostitution is illegal, unregulated and black market - this will continue

Legalize it, regulate it and give them police protection (as they would any other business) and that goes away

[redqueen]

30. No, it will continue as long as society promotes the idea of it being acceptable.

Sweden demonstrates that where it is no longer promoted as acceptable to buy sex, demand goes down.

Where it is legal, demand goes up... and that demand includes the demand for the illegal form, even where it is legal, as I said, because many men refuse to use condoms, they like to beat women, or they like to engage in acts in which protected sex workers will not participate.

[Taverner]

31. Where it is legal, they have full security staffs

That prevents the violence you are talking about

[redqueen]

32. Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that illgeal prostitution

still goes on, even where it's legal? Do those people not matter somehow?

I still think I'm just wasting my time, because you continue to ignore these facts.

Demand goes up where it's leagl. It goes down where the idea of buying sex is presented as what it is - violence against women.

[Taverner]

33. I'm saying prostitution should be legal, regulated and secure

Just like strip clubs

[redqueen]

34. So then the answer is yes.

Yes, you are ignoring the fact that people are still coerced into illegal prostitution whether it's legal or not.

And the fact that demand goes up where it's legal, because people get the idea that's it's fine and dandy to buy sex.

[Taverner]

35. Isn't it the "coercion" part that should be (and is) illegal?

I mean, a man kills his brother and then makes a sandwich. Should he be charged for killing his brother, or making the sandwich?

[redqueen]

36. Here again...

you seem not to want to acknowledge that where it is legal, the idea that buying sex is socially acceptable becomes more widespread, so demand for prostitutes goes up... and therefore the demand for illegal prostitutes also goes up.

It's not a big deal, I can't make you believe it. It's just that absent that acknowledgment, we really are at an impasse and should just agree to disagree.

[Taverner]

37. No because that's like saying if we legalize pot, our kids will shoot heroin

[redqueen]

38. No, it really isn't.

There are places which have legalized both, and this has been shown not to be the case.

Conversely, in areas such as the Netherlands and Reno, NV, it has been demonstrated that the demand for illegal prostitutes does in fact go up in those areas.

You don't have to believe me. Two more countries have already adopted Sweden's model of dealing with prostitution, and I'm sure more will follow. As the evidence piles up, it will become obvious.

[leftstreet]

10. What's a CSW?

:shrug:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. Consenting Sex Worker, I believe. I know what the SW stands for and assumed on the C

[leftstreet]

14. ah

yeah I knew the SW part

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. I'm guessing the C provides a critical distinction, dontcha know.

[Taverner]

18. CSW = Commercial Sex Worker

[snooper2]

16. community service worker?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. "Under communism, we had friends. Under capitalism, we have business associates."

From a Ukrainian movie after the fall of the Soviet Union. - Sorry, I forgot the title.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

12. The basics of what I need are the usual -- food, shelter, clothing

Lots of things I don't need like a TV, cable, internet, a CD player for my car, etc., etc., etc. My money paid for people to supply my needs but I only need 1 house, I can only eat so much and I'm not a clothes hoarder.

As it stands my boss pays me more money than I "need" (he such a sweetie like that). The money left over is disposable income and I disposed of some of it buying a car with a CD & USB player. That may be called consumerist but from engineering, to manufacturing, distribution, retail and servicing I was able to employ more people than if I had simply settled for the minimum of personal necessity. The people in that chain do have value to me because they have provided me something I want. I hope I have value to them because I'm part of the purchasing public that has allowed them to produce and sell automotive electronics which is probably a better way to earn a living than say -- working in a coal mine.

I don't feel bad about this arrangement.

[The2ndWheel]

17. Well nobody seems to be coming up with an actual alternative

Everyone is just fighting to see how the money is divided. Not sure how it's limited to just capitalism though. Seems to be within a larger phenomenon.

[BOG PERSON]

24. a specter is haunting europe...

the specter of ALTERNATIVES

[BOG PERSON]

23. prostitution predates capitalism by a long, long time

hence it is not the most "capitalistic" of all relationships, as the object of sex-work cannot be alienated from the sex-worker, and sex-work itself does not add to the social product in a measurable way.

[Taverner]

26. This is true, actually - it goes back to our days as Hunter-Gatherers

And Redqueen was right in that it goes back to the Patriarchy

But in a Matriarchy, men would be the prostitutes for women

It's ingrained in us as a species

And the more we do to implement labor theory value in the Marxist sense, the less it will be...

[Taverner]

27. What are you talking about? Of course it can add to the "social product"...

In a very Materialistic, Cynical and Nihilistic way...

Think 'comfort wives,' not just with Japan but also with France during the First Indochine War