This is what some folks were cheering last week in Libya

[malaise]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/27/gaddafi-killers-face-prosecution-libya
<snip>
Libya's interim government says it will prosecute anyone found responsible for the death of Muammar Gaddafi after his capture, in a retreat from its earlier insistence that the dictator had been killed by crossfire.

The change in position comes after a week of sustained criticism of the Libyan leader's captors, who used their camera phones to chronicle his death. The footage, including images of a wounded Gaddafi being sodomised with what looked like a bayonet, caused widespread revulsion outside the country.

Abdel Hafiz Ghoga, deputy chief of the National Transitional Council, said it would try to bring to justice anyone proven to have fired the shot to the head that killed Gaddafi.
----------------
It's all BS after the torture and murder.
Fidel wrote a great article about this.
:puke:

[trumad]

1. Let me follow you here...

Fidel Castro???? wrote a piece about his good buddy Gaddafi?

[blindpig]

3. I'd certainly believe Fidel before the MSM.

Gaddafi was an enemy of imperialism, that cannot be denied.

[trumad]

9. and obviously his own people.

[joeybee12]

63. And that's why everyone was fighting against him...

No, they weren't...he had about half the country still behind him.

[EFerrari]

16. Have you ever read anything by Fidel Castro?

He's one of the best political analysts of this hemisphere and he writes brilliantly.

[sabrina 1]

30. Human Rights organizations uncovered Mass Graves

in Sirte, we don't need Fidel Castro or anyone else to verify the ignored reports throughout this so-called 'libyan revolution, of the brutality our new 'allies'. The fact is those now ruling Libya allowed the massacre of untold numbers of civilians in Libya.

Calls have been made by Human Rights organizations since LAST MARCH to stop the murder, rape and torture of Sub Saharan Immigrants and to protect the civilians from NATO bombs and Anti-Gadaffi 'forces'.

All these pleas were ignored. Also ignored was the exposure of the lies told to the UN in order to get the fake Resolution, just like Iraq.

This was an Imperial War against yet another African Leader who didn't behave the way the Imperial Masters wanted him to.

The hypocrisy of their claims re Libya while still supporting Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Bahrain, and now moving into Uganda, where that Government is about to re-institute the Death Penalty for Gays, due the influx of US Televangists and Fundies there, should prevent any sane person from ever believing their laughable claims of 'humanitarianism'.

According to the European press, the Mass Graves have been 'cleansed' so it doesn't look like our new allies are too worried about such brutality meted out so indescriminately and with such clear bigotry. Anyone with darker skin than those bigots is either in hiding still in Libya hoping to be rescued, or has managed to escape thankfully. As some of the Ghana refugees said, 'Gadaffi was our hero, he protected us and made it possible for us to make a living for our families'. Yes, NOT as mercenaries as claimed, but for Corporations in Libya. 'We mourn his death' they said, which was pretty much the sentiment in many African nations. Not so in the Imperial West though. When did the NOT cheer to take over of an African or ME country?

As Lindsey Graham said, unable to hide his glee that the obstacle to raiding another African country's resources had been removed 'look, there is lots of money to be made there now' so let's move on again from a few more war crimes.

Yes, this was cheered on in the Imperial nations, but not so much in the rest of the world. Probably one of the lowest points so far was the grotesque glee evident in the headlines of the Western Tabloid, and they are mostly tabloid, propagandists at this point, press. The appeal to the lowest elements in our society was seen everywhere else, even by those who, in Africa, eg, were not overly fond of Gadaffi, as simply despicable which said more about those promoting than it did about the victims.

Desmond Tutu's comments re this vile display of medieval brutality towards his friend and 'brother', Gadaffi, the man who helped Liberate South Africa from Imperial oppression, were a reminder during the horrible, disgusting bloodlust in the western media, that not all human beings are so mentally warped. So thank you Arch Bishop Tutu and all the other Africans who reminded us that there are still decent, law-abiding human beings in this world. Just not too much where we live right now.

[malaise]

51. Yes indeed

:hi:

[dtexdem]

2. I still cheer it.

It was to be expected. Ghadaffi brought it on himself.

But, yeah, it's good that the new government is now trying to bring back the rule of law and prosecute the person who fired the shot.

[Arctic Dave]

4. Are you saying Libya was "lawless" when MG was in power?

By all accounts, Libya was quite progressive compared to other African and Middle Eastern countries.

[JoePhilly]

5. "By all accounts" you say ... but no links to them??

[Arctic Dave]

7. Here is a quick link.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_literacy_rate_in_Libya

Now, here is a secret that mom and dad probably next told you about, it's called "Google". If you use it you can find many, many more fact about all kinds of things. For some reason I'm thinking facts aren't quite what you look for.

[JoePhilly]

8. First, one link is not "all accounts" and YOU made that claim ...

And so it is YOUR job to DEFEND that claim with sources (links).

And my parents taught me that I should not do YOUR work. If you want to make a claim of FACT ... then YOU need to post the sources / links AND refer to the FACTS contain in those.

As an actual scientist, I can tell you that when some one says "use google to check my facts, the ones for which I provided NO SOURCES", I already know that you are full of crap.

If you are going to make the claim you made, then it is your responsibility to provide the sources for it, not the reader's responsibility to try and hunt them down via Google.

Maybe you should take a class on basic research methods.

[Arctic Dave]

32. Well then as an actual scientist I don't want to taint your source.

Here are few hints for google:

1 Libayan womens rights
2 Libyan hunger ratios
3 Libyan income rates
4 Libyan medical access
5 Libyan court system

Feel free to query any other matrix you want to use.

So just because I called you on bullshit don't get pissy with me. Like I said, if you were actually interested in knowing you get off your dead ass on to your dying feet and find out for yourself.

[JoePhilly]

41. I called you on YOUR BS claim ... and you clearly can not provide sources ..

You should submit an application to Fox news ... they LOVE that.

[Arctic Dave]

69. Here, another link for.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/


Let me guess, biased source. If that's not enough I'll find you more, unfortunately you will have to actually read them. :(

Like I said before, I doubt being informed is your goal.

[sabrina 1]

83. You just have to use Google to see that yes, by all accounts

Libya was the most prosperous and most advanced country in Africa and Eastern Europe and on many levels, according to those who study these issues, ahead of the US on issues like infant mortality, life expectancy, HC and Education. Also, Gadaffi believed that every citizen had a right to own a home and either provided money for them to do so, or provided no interest loans for those who could afford to do it that way. Gas was practically free and the Libyan government often paid for cars for citizens.

All of that disgusting 'Socialism' is not going to continue under the Western Puppet Govt, as rightwingers do not believe in Socialism. But he didn't just provide money for his own citizens, he helped educate people from other, poorer, African nations. Where he is mourned, while the Western media displays the Imperial West's no longer hidden uncivilized and primitive character. He is the second Libyan leader to have been lynched at the hands of the Imperial West. Lynching Africans is not new. It's still happening right here from time to time, and it isn't so long ago that was a regular occurance. And we have the nerve to point fingers elsewhere.

[zappaman]

86. He loved women too!

After the high-profile story of Eman al-Obeidy, the Libyan woman who broke into a Tripoli hotel full of foreign journalists, determined to tell the story of her brutal gang rape at the hands of Gaddafi’s soldiers, it’s disturbing but not unsurprising to hear that Gaddafi may be using rape as a systematic weapon against opponents of the regime. According to the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, Gaddafi’s forces may also be provided with Viagra, to aid in this horrifying tactic.

http://www.care2.com/causes/gadhafi-regime-accused-of-using-rape-as-a-weapon-of-war.html

[polly7]

87. US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya

US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims

Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say

By Louis Charbonneau

updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.

Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.

"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mide...



US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...

UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes

NBC News and news services
updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.

Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.

While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.

[sabrina 1]

94. You must have missed the debunking of those 'babies in the ovens'

stories also. Gadaffi actually did love women. They had more rights, equal pay for equal work eg, than most other African nations. There was not an iota of proof to those allegations, and many people from the beginning, who knew anything about Libya's record on women, questioned that story. In fact it was one of several other things that caused me to stop supporting this travesty as it was so similar to the propaganda always used when the Imperial powers intend to invade an oil rich African or ME nation. They don't even have to change their tactics, it was far too familiar.

Btw, who would you hold responsible for the rapes of the Sub-Saharan women? Those were not mere 'accusations' they were investigated starting last March and with witnesses, by Human Rights organizations. All those pretending to be so outraged over this one allegation, have been shamefully silent on the murders and rapes of Black African women by the so-called 'rebels'.

Gadaffi was in power, or semi-power for over 40 years. In that time he elevated women to positions of power and professionalism, did away with the rules requiring them to wear traditional clothing hiding them from the world, and had an all-female security detail fully trained to fight should it be necessary.

How many Black African women, in less than one year after the 'rebels' were supported by NATO were murdered, raped and tortured? Is anyone worried about getting those who were living in terror just a few weeks ago, out of that country where it is no longer safe for them to be? They WERE safe under Gadaffi btw. Or are people going to be as willfully blind to these crimes as Bush supporters were on Iraq crimes? No wonder the War Machine is so strong. They can count on the willful blindness of partisans on each side, ensuring support for their criminal invasions no matter who is in power.

Even if true, that is ONE woman. I notice the failure, or any concern for them, to report on the dozens, maybe hundreds, Human Rights orgs and reporters on the ground could not get cooperation from our new allies, to find out how many, women have been murdered and raped by these brutal, far right Fundie thugs. Nor can they get any help to get those still in Libya where it will never again be safe for women from other African nations, to live.

I don't care if I am the only person in the Western Hemisphere to speak against them, because I will not condone this kind of brutal, blood-thirsty, racist invasion no matter who does nor no matter who is responsible.

Poor people, I see the Brits were 'packing their bags' to go 'profit' from 'all the business' now available to them in Libya. Just like Iraq, same formula, same greedy, immoral thieves.

[backwoodsbob]

102. hmm

the BS claim that citizens got *interest free loans* has been debunked..they just changed the wording from interest to *administrative fees*.

And can you give a link specifically to all these people given free cars by the government? Not inner circle government types but every day citizens being given free cars

[LanternWaste]

90. Italy under Mussolini was also quite progressive when compared

Italy under Mussolini was also quite progressive when compared to other Mediterranean states of that age.

[Arctic Dave]

93. Yeah, in a bizarre way he was.

He truly fucked the dog when he got mixed up with the axis. He made a choice thinking Germany would be quick in victory and he wanted a cut of the spoils for his country. Stupid move on his part.

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. To cheer it you have to have no reservations about the steaming pile of

propaganda presented by our government about Kadafi.

It is more a case of they US brought it upon him than he brought it upon himself. In the list of all his 'crimes' the one that is never mentioned is that he started it all when he kicked the US and Europeans out and nationalized Libya's oil industry. THAT is his unforgivable crime. Lockerbie? Unlikely he had anything to do with it. It was certainly never proven or admitted to.

He was targeted for 'regime change' and the US spent 40 years propagandizing against him. THAT is what you know about him.

[trumad]

10. Wow!

So he wasn't a brutal dictator... thanks for clearing that up for me.

BTW: That Pan Am flight was really brought down by a Flock of Seagulls.

[EFerrari]

20. Thank you.

[malaise]

48. Ding ding we have a winner

:hi:

[MedleyMisty]

54. So all the Libyans on Twitter were CIA agents?

And all the videos and all the photographs are faked?

Damn. I know that a lot of the videos I watched only had a few thousand views. Some, only a couple hundred. That is some fucking expensive propaganda right there, with very little rate of return. And the CIA agents continue to post on Twitter, about their joy and what they want in a new Libya and their problems with and/or support for the NTC, and how they also want freedom for everyone else, and how they support the revolution in Syria and how they support Occupy Wall Street. They also either know a hell of a lot about Libyan culture, or sat down and came up with a full extensive culture with a history (do you even know who Omar Al-Mukthar is?) and to frequently reference this culture even though Westerners would not be familiar with it and would not gain any - I don't know, propaganda points? - from the references. They also frequently switch between tweeting in English and tweeting in Arabic, even though one would think that Westerners, the supposed target of this very intricate scheme, would not be able to read Arabic.

I give mad props to our government, because that is some serious ass dedication to their propaganda. I mean, they went so far as to express anger at the pro-Gaddafi propaganda in our media during the revolution, and to get angry when it didn't seem like NATO was helping and to speculate on NATO's motive in not helping. And look, they even created a hip hop song about freedom and equality - http://vimeo.com/21985272

Imagine how much it cost to set up all those scenes and pay the actors and pay for those very very nice special effects, and they had to hire a great songwriter, and they must have known that they were spreading a message that was antithetical to what they want for Americans here at home.

And again, they wrote this song dedicated to Libyan women - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SImWfyYF0Zk Imagine all the effort and money put into that, and it even contradicts the whole "Arabs need dictators because they treat their women so horrible!" line which is a great excuse for invading (not a NFZ with plenty of countries contributing, but a mostly US led full on invasion and occupation)other Arab countries. (Which notice how in that sentence women are seen as a special segment of "they", as belonging to "them".)

The whole Occupy movement might as well give up and go home, because ain't no way we can beat people this good and this dedicated and this willing to put in a ton of work and money for very little reward.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. I am sorry if them principles get in the way

Those protections for the monster are not there for the sake of the monster. They are there for you avoiding becoming that monster. It is a path that it's way too easy to travel down. It is much harder not to travel down that path. Cheering it is the first step down that path...and it is indeed the way to hell.

For their sake...better have an actual justice system and not just a show trial.

[Schema Thing]

12. "Protections"? You spend the last weeks of your life urging your mercenary army to kill

a rag-tag group of rebels (who you have spent 40 years pissing on), and you think there are "protections" when you're finally trapped in battle?



Hell, America has perhaps the most disciplined fighting force on earth, and on occasion, our soldiers have done worse than what happened to Gaddafi.

[trumad]

15. Bingo.

Great post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Not really

It is not fr them you do this. It is for you.

[trumad]

21. Nope---it was a great post.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. There goes that humanity

Should I recommend some Hannah Arendt in your future readying list? Banality of evil comes to mind.

[trumad]

27. Humanity---that's hilarious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Yup, yours, not the monster's

This is what we are talking about here.

[trumad]

34. sorry

I didn't know you were the humanity cop.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. It would make a good read

By your logic though, should I have played judge jury and all that with the child abuser? How about the drug lord? I am damn serious on that one...or just with very well known monsters that ordered the torture and murder of others? Both of those did, just at lower levels.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Yup I know, those protections for pow's

Are damn inconvenient when they involve monsters.

[trumad]

23. Uhh

His own people killed his ass.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. And they were subject to them

As recognized lawful combatants.

Banality of evil comes to mind, do give it a whirl.

[Schema Thing]

33. Banality of internet lecturers comes to mind right now.

I can't think of anything more platitudinous than a westerner lecturing a group of irregular rebel fighters for having abused (for a very short time) and then killed (almost surely in anger) the hated despot who made them take up arms in the first place.

Get.fucking.real.

It's one thing to comment that it *shouldn't* have gone down that way. Water is wet and all that. It's just.plain.silly to expect that it would have happened any other way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. So you believe those unwashed brown people

Are incapable of comprehending the most basic of humanitarian law principles? I am not that dismissive.

[Schema Thing]

52. who the fuck said you could pull that shit with me?

Those "unwashed brown people" acted no worse than certain American soldiers have acted at times, as I pointed out clearly in my post above.

Those "unwashed brown people" at least have the benefit of being true rebels - irregulars, and of having been provoked to do what they did by Gaddafi himself, unlike other war crimes that usually victimize the innocent. Trial or no trial, Gaddafi was no innocent, and in fact met the fate that he carefully crafted for himself over the last few months of his life.

Take your lame argumentation and insulting insinuations of racism elsewhere.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. And they were recognized as legal combatants

In a civil war. You might want to look that up...

As to American soldiers...just because we do it don't mean it's ok, no matter how many excuses.

Go on and defend this all you want. Some of us will refuse to walk down that path with you.

[zappaman]

65. "unwashed brown people"?

Don't ya love it when weepy sanctimonious know-it-alls put racist words in your mouth.
Used to happen to me until certain weepy sanctimonious know-it-alls put a mess of folks who pointed out their bullshit on "mutual ignore".
Have fun!

[zappaman]

45. I love all the weepy sanctimonious know-it-alls

who claim that our freedoms and laws in the US have somehow been lost thanks to another country killing a brutal dictator who tortured, maimed, and killed thousands of innocent people.
:cry: some more crocodile tears.

[tabasco]

59. Perfect! : "weepy sanctimonious know-it-alls." Exactly.

That's why I read DU - - although the WSKIAs make me hurl. :puke:

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. Hi :-)

You make me smile as well, but out of nervousness.

I don't expect you to precisely understand...why.

[Schema Thing]

66. I'm with you...

but just have to reiterate that it wasn't even "another country" killing it's brutal dictator.... it was just a group of irregular soldiers on the battlefield who had been provoked by the brutal dictator himself.

He was probably killed with the golden gun he was carrying when trapped. Hell, just owning a golden gun is probably an offense worthy of death.

[zappaman]

68. you're right

I wasn't clear when I wrote that.
Thanks for clearing it up!

[polly7]

39. What mercenary army?

Those 'mercenaries' who turned out to be migrant workers who had absolutely nothing to do with any army?

[Schema Thing]

44. No, the mercenary army Gaddafi hired.

No one but yourself is confused about migrant workers vs mercenary soldiers.

[polly7]

46. Nah .... not confused here. The mercenary claim was debunked early

on. Yet the rape, torture and murder of those migrants and people who were of darker skin was allowed to continue throughout.

[Schema Thing]

58. That Gaddafi hired mercenaries is well documented.

That there were some abuses of foreign workers, especially black Africans, by some of the rebels is also fairly undisputed. As for it being "allowed", well, wtf? Who exactly would dis-"allow" it?

It does not seem to have been extremely widespread or an over-arching theme of the revolution though.

[polly7]

61. Really? You need to do a bit of searching. n/t.

[polly7]

95. Who, these guys?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27760.htm

[Schema Thing]

96. no, that article is not specific and tries to create an inference

that may have some relevance, but certainly doesn't characterize the whole of, or even a large percentage of, the rebel movement in Libya. But thank you for your comical attempt at propaganda wrt matters you have zero knowledge of.


I think this is more likely the types that where helping Gaddafi at his end: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/SA-mercenaries-left-to-own-devices-20111026

[polly7]

99. Ah, the leaders of the 'rebels' and their origins have been well

documented in article after article. All it takes are basic reading skills and a functioning brain to understand the region in Libya from which the uprising started was a hotbed of fundamentalists who have planned to take over Libya for years. That the west pounced on the 'Arab Spring' popularity to back them and decimate Libya for 'liberty' is also easily understood. I suggest you try to get past the propaganda, these things aren't difficult at all.

[Prometheus Bound]

97. Any evidence "America has perhaps the most disciplined fighting force on earth?"

just wondering

[Schema Thing]

98. wonder about something more important

[EFerrari]

18. They only did that after all the video surfaced and got pressure

from their patrons. At first both they and NATO lied their asses off.

[sabrina 1]

62. Um, no he didn't. But congratulations on buying the latest

round of propaganda against an African leader. Try doing some research, I think you will be embarrassed by your position, unless of course you believe in Imperial wars and the lies told for centuries, to try to justify them.

But aside from all that, how do you feel about our newfound allies in Uganda? And one that makes Gadaffi look like Santa Claus, Karamov of Uzbekistan? Any opinions on our allies in Saudi Arabia, and their buddies, and ours, in Bahrain??

Fyi, Gadaffi's Libya had the highest standard of living in Africa and the most literate population, not to mention the best social programs. His people did not topple, they fought the powerful nations in the world for nearly a year on his behalf. The minority, fundamentalist 'rebels' the Imperial Europeans used, would not have lasted a week, in fact they would not even have tried on their own.

Btw, how did you feel about Apartheid in South Africa? Mandela? Just curious.

The ignorance of Western Imperial nations of other cultures makes it so easy for the War Machine to get them on board with the most criminal and bruatl wars.

Also, even if this WAS a person who 'deserved' that lynching (funny how cheering on lynchings of Africans seems to be still in the culture of the Imperial west) no civilized person or nation would feel anything but horror and disgust at such medieval 'justice'. A lot has been revealed about Western culture these past few months.

And none of it is good. I guess you could call it the 'collapse of Western Civilization'.

[Mimosa]

76. CIA hated Patrice Lumumba. Neo-liberals, READ Someting, for God's sake.

The conservadems and neo-libs are short on history.

[sabrina 1]

77. Thank you Mimosa. Fox has done great harm to this country

And the rest of the Corporate owned, propaganda machine. The odd thing is that the 'left' did not fall for Bush's lies re Iraq, something has happened to some on the Left lately.

Gadaffi is the second leader of Libya to be publicly lynched by the Imperial powers.

Absolutely disgusting to see Democrats reaction. Did any of our Leaders condemn that war crime publicly? All I saw was Hillary Clinton taking credit for putting out the 'hit' on him and Desmond Tutu rightfully admonishing her for boasting about it.

This truly is a shameful period in our history. And history will not be kind to us.

I hope someone pursues the crimes committed against the African Immigrants and the massacres that were discovered in Sirte and in other cities. But there is a deafening silence from our 'Righteous' leaders, who CLAIM to be concerned about such brutality. I have lost respect, no, that's putting it mildly, I despise them for their participation in these crimes and for their hypocrisy. And they are all, like the Bush gang claimed to be, Christians! Prayer meetings etc. Whatever god they worship, it certainly wasn't the man whose name they have appropriated.

[Mimosa]

103. We remember the past, Sabrina and Malaise

Two of my friends are muslim MDs. One is a very close long time buddy, the other is more of a professional relationship. Both are very evolved people. They both (who don't like each other much since they are different sects) have been able to give me the 'inside info'.

There has long been racial tensions in Nothern African nations. The more Caucasian/Semitic type Libyans, Moroccans, Tunisians have a history of looking down on Negroid North Africans. Khaddafi did not particularly share that racism according to my Muslim friend who liked Khaddafi. He says the 'rebels' partly coalesce around an antipathy towards the black Libyans. I don't know if he's right or not but to date he's been right on everything since Gulf War I. :(

[malaise]

91. Even Tweety was talking about Patrice Lumumba today

today when he was talking about the documentary about Colby.
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2011/09/former-cia-director-william-colby--the-man-nobody-knew

[Mudoria]

13. This last week of reading DU has convinced me that Gaddafi guy was the greatest!

How did a small band of "disgruntled tribesmen" overthrow a man beloved by all Libyans?

[EFerrari]

14. No, the last week of reading DU should have taught you

that torturing and sodomizing a prisoner and blowing his brains out is righteous! USA!

[malaise]

67. Bingo

:fistbump:

[Mudoria]

92. Express your dismay to the Libyans then....

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. As I said above

whatabove what happened to gaddafi is as horrifying as the orders he gave.

[malaise]

57. Too many folks missed this

:fistbump:

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. Here's a hint:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2202634

Not to mention a NATO 'no fly zone' that seemed to be shooting at anything that moved, not just anything that flew.

[polly7]

43. Many tribes in Libya did not support the rebels, the rebels wouldn't

have stood a chance against those loyal to Qaddafi without NATO intervention, arms and ground troop support from other countries for whom Qaddafi's removal meant oil and opportunity.

[Boojatta]

53. The villains in Scooby-Doo would be assured of success if it weren't for those meddling kids.

[polly7]

60. Funny. But when I think of 'loss', I think of the brutal, sadistic, needless,

gratuitous loss of human life. Many who were guilty of nothing more than being black. Some beheaded .. women with breasts cut off. ONLY possible because of a lying NATO intervention. How's that for comedy??

[dionysus]

26. i'll leave you to grieve for your friend in peace.

[trumad]

28. snarf

[gratuitous]

35. Yeah, my friend, the rule of law

Continue dancing on its grave, but be warned that if the laws don't protect the people you don't like today, tomorrow they might not protect you. I'm afraid I can't quite see my way clear to trimming my principles to fit this year's fashion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. + brazillion.

[Celefin]

40. The rule of law. How quaint.

Get with the program. It's a brave new world.

[gratuitous]

42. I know, my thinking is mired in a pre-9/11 mindset

It's a personal failing, of that I'm sure, because so many otherwise canny DUers keep telling me that this whole rule of law thing is just so antiquated. Someday I'll get rid of this unnatural attachment to due process, and be able to massacre unarmed and defenseless people with a clear conscience.

[malaise]

50. +1,000

:fistbump:

[AngkorWot]

55. Because you were so concerned about the rule of law in Libya before Obama got involved.

[EFerrari]

70. You mean, before we started being blasted by propaganda about Libya

You have that exactly backward.

[AngkorWot]

74. There was plenty of news coming out of Libya before NATO got involved.

But apparently you were unaware of it, and that pretty much proves my point.

[gratuitous]

71. I was then, I am now

Nice try. I suppose I'd try it too, if I didn't have a legal or moral leg to stand on, so I can't say this comment is dismaying or surprising. Whether it's a ruthless dictator or an innocent by-stander extra-judicial murder is just so much more efficient than bothering with all that "evidence" stuff, innit?

Unfortunately, I didn't have much authority to act in Libya, not being a citizen there, except through channels of international law. I'm certainly not too enthralled with seeing my country and fellow citizens actively cheering on mob rule, not least because it exposes me to being named as a very, very bad person, antithetical to the powers that would operate outside the rule of law. But we all operate at our own level of comfort.

[Celefin]

72. Your point?

When you're not involved it's none of your business.
When you are, it is.

Those who marched in London against a visit by Bush during the Iraq war were accused of double standards
for not marching against Saddam when he was in power. Implying they wouldn't have protested him had
he ever been invited to Westminster and been given the red carpet treatment.

You think nobody would have been concerned about human rights abuses in Libya had they been on the evening
news every day, simultaneously with our leaders cozying up to Gaddafi? Whenever these two things
DID coincide, there WAS concern on DU. Yes, from the 'Gaddafi lovers'. Especially from them.
People concerned about human rights and the rule of law. Those quaint concepts.

You can't be concerned about everything all the time.
But when you or your leaders are so obviously involved in something so blatantly wrong, you have to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Yes, this dude ordered the arrest

And torture of those who opposed him. Amnesty was concerned about that just as now.

Moral equivalencies of this type are meant to poison the well.

[Mimosa]

47. What kind of rightoids would un-rec good reporting from The GuardianUK? n/t

[malaise]

49. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

:hi:

[court jester]

75. R& Net recommendation: 0 votes (Your vote: +1)

:dem:

BTW, Where's Hifter been?

Here Hifter, Here Hifter! Woo Woo (whistle) Here Hifter Come on boy! Master has some treats!

[polly7]

80. Indeed, where has he been?

Is General Khalifa Hifter The CIA’s Man In Libya?

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-04-22/politics/30085091_1_libyan-leader-moammar-gadhafi-rebel-army-qaddafi

Since coming to the United States in the early 1990s, Hifter lived in suburban Virginia outside Washington, D.C. Badr said he was unsure exactly what Hifter did to support himself, and that Hifter primarily focused on helping his large family.

So a former Qaddafi general who switches sides is admitted to the United States, puts down roots in Virginia outside Washington, D.C. and then somehow supports his family in a manner that mystifies a fellow who has known Hifter his whole life. Hmm.

The likelihood that Hifter was brought in to be some kind of asset is pretty high. Just as figures like Ahmed Chalabi were cultivated for a post-Saddam Iraq, Hifter may have played a similar role as American intelligence prepared for a chance in Libya.

We do need to ask to what extent the Libyan uprising is a proxy battle, with the United States far more involved that it would care to admit. Certainly, Qaddafi has been on the “to-remove” list for a very long time. But after something of a rapprochement, he again became a major irritant in recent years.



Burning Libya Question: Exactly Who Are Gaddafi's Opponents?

This could be a case of the age-old warning to be careful of what one wishes for. As Morgan Norval wrote in the Selous Foundation For Public Policy Research News and Analysis of March 12, “Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb has voiced its support for the Libyan rebels and they have developed and stoked underground and Islamic hard-line fundamentalist currents in Libya and have played a role in eastern Libyan efforts against Gaddafi.”

Citing Andrew McCarthy’s recent claim in the National Review Online that Libya’s “main opposition is the Muslim Brotherhood,” Norval noted that “McCarthy’s view is bolstered by a study of captured personnel records in Iraq by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point. This report studied foreign jihadis who joined al-Qaeda in Iraq between August 2006 and August 2007. It found that Libya produced ‘far more’ foreign fighters per capita than any other country. Over 80% of the Libyan recruits came from two Libyan cities: Benghazi and Darnah, a city lying east of Benghazi. This region, Cyrenacia, is the center of the rebellion against Gaddafi.”

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=42604

One such attack by the LIFG, reported by the Washington Post, saw two German anti-terrorism agents gunned down in 1994. Qaddafi's attempt to subsequently issue an INTERPOL arrest warrant against Al Qaeda's Osama Bin Laden, who was supporting the LIFG at the time, was actually thwarted by British MI6. MI6, according to the Washington Post article, had been concurrently supporting the LIFG alongside Al Qaeda and the warrant wasn't issued until 1998.

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/05/libya-at-any-cost.html

Additionally, and perhaps most damning, is current Libyan rebel leader Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, who according to the London Telegraph, "fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008." Many of the fighters under Hasidi also fought in Iraq against US troops. The current rebel strongholds of Benghazi and Derna served as the premier recruiting grounds for Al-Qaeda forces during the Iraq War, according to a West Point military study. Quite literally, John McCain in his recent trip to Benghazi, was patting on the back and shaking the hands of the very men who sent Americans home in pine boxes from Iraq.

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/05/libya-at-any-cost.html


The disinformation campaign began in February as overt, now verified lies were told to the public regarding both the nature of the uprising and the Libyan government's reaction to it. As tank driving, jet flying battle hardened LIFG Al Qaeda mercenaries waged war against the Libyan army, the corporate media in tandem with NATO member states preparing to intervene, portrayed the uprising as peaceful placard waving activists being mowed down by machine gun fire and strafed by Libyan warplanes. Evidence now confirms no such atrocties took place, however the UN citing this intentional disinformation authroized NATO intervention.

The very nature of the Benghazi rebels has been deceptively presented to the public. In fact, they are a collection of extremists and mercenaries, many of whom had been fighting recently in Iraq and Afghanistan against US forces. These mercenaries, who have been backed by the CIA and MI6 for the last 30 years (see time line), are being portrayed as an "an indigenous political force" opposing Libya's government. It has just been recently revealed that the rebel commander attempting to seize Tripoli is none other than Abdelhakim Belhadj, an Al Qaeda asset who was previously captured by in Malaysia, tortured by the CIA in Bangkok, Thailand in 2003, before being release back in Libya where he is now fighting on behalf of NATO.

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/08/confirmed-libya-war-is-cia-op-30-years.html

De Borchgrave begins by mentioning notorious Neo-Conservative James Woolsey, who in the 1990s was the director of the CIA and was approached by Libya's Moammar Qaddafi for assistance against terrorists emanating from Libya's eastern city of Benghazi. Benghazi, of course, is now the current epicenter of the NATO-backed rebellion. Ironically, Woolsey, who de Borchgrave claims is one of the leaders of a campaign "to expose a clandestine Islamist plot to bring Shariah law to America," is also one of the chief proponents of NATO's handing of Libya over to these very "Islamist" terrorists today. Woolsey was one of the signatories of an "open letter to House Republicans" imploring Congress to ignore anti-war sentiments amongst their constituents and to do "more to help the Libyan opposition," which the letter insists "deserves our support." The letter also advised Congress not to be "held hostage" by the UNSC resolution authorizing the military intervention in the first place, undermining the "international rule of law" the US was supposedly enforcing.

The Atlantic Council piece then goes on to look at recent, damning evidence publicized by Asia Times reporter Pepe Escobar, proving that not only NATO's earlier claimed "flickers of Al Qaeda" in Libya are indeed raging fires, but that NATO was well aware of the terroristic nature of the rebels long before even the official start of the unrest in February, 2011. The article goes into this evidence in depth and concludes by saying it is "a harum-scarum scenario of NATO snookered by al-Qaida affiliates that can only please China."

A Global Con Indeed

For nearly three decades, US and British intelligence agencies have supported terrorist organizations within Libya to wage war against Qaddafi's government. In an August 3, 1981 Newsweek article titled, "A Plan to Overthrow Kaddafi," it was stated that:

"The details of the plan were sketchy, but it seemed to be a classic CIA destabilization campaign. One element was a “disinformation” program designed to embarrass Kaddafi and his government. Another was the creation of a “counter government” to challenge his claim to national leadership. A third — potentially the most risky — was an escalating paramilitary campaign, probably by disaffected Libyan nationals, to blow up bridges, conduct small-scale guerrilla operations and demonstrate that Kaddafi was opposed by an indigenous political force."

http://wikileaks-freedom-the-truth.yolasite.com/

[LanternWaste]

78. The trendy rehabilitation of Ghadaffi's image is certainly

The trendy rehabilitation of Ghadaffi's image is certainly almost as quaint as dismissing a person's opnion by implying they don't accept or agree with rule of law.

[zappaman]

79. He'll be Mother Teresa by 2014

at least here....

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

82. There are some here who never held her in high regard.....

....you won't have to wait that long.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. You know he was quite possible among the top nasty

In Africa. I am torn, don't know if he was above idi Amin or under him in the evil scale. Recognizing that his death was also done in a horrific way is far from making him mother Theresa.

Now as far as scale of evilness, if such a thing is based on how many people were killed under his watch...given Hitler and Stalin, he was not quite chump change but far from really big leagues. That's not my personal standard though. He was a really evil man. So was the drug lord I took to hospital. I've seen evil in the eye, a special experience. (and minor leagues compared to the present) So by this logic the cops should have applied the ley fuga? Or was it better that he was tried? By du moral standards I guess ley fuga would be preferable. :sarcasm:

But to say that people who are horrified are engaged in rehabilitation is classic strawman.

[LanternWaste]

85. Yet there has been rehabilitation of his image

Yet there has been rehabilitation of his image-- dismissing his actions, downplaying many of the things he wrote in the Green Book, etc. And this has happened on DU.

Will Libya's economy be better or worse without him? No idea... the Italian people cheered Mussolini for adding stability to the infrastructure, security to thier lives and a higher prosperity. Ad to that that many revolutions resulting in a period of years of chaos, confusion, starvation and worse in thier respective countries, we may see Libya go down a spiral of uncontrolled chaos for some years to come (yet the opposite could be just as true-- Poland or Bulgaria, or the European revolutins of the mid-nineteenth century comes to mind).

However, I've never held to the addage that the devil you know is better than the one you don't, and I can't downplay the accomplishment of the Libyan people siimply because they were assisted in part by the Great Satan (America, monied interests, I imagine even the famed Rothschild or the Illuminati wuill eventually be trotted out to fill that diaphanous role).

His death was done in a horrible manner... as was Mussolini's. But that doesn't discredit the accomplishment of the rebellion, nor does it act in any was as a barometer as to what will indeed happen.

I appreciate your pespectives more than you realize-- you have allowed me greater perspectives on human conflicts and humanitrariona crises throughout the world since I've become more aware of your posts. For what it's worth, I would never credit someone with your weight of bothj knowledge and experience with anything less than studied knowledge. But we will see (and I have seen) a knee jerk reeaction to assist with Ghaddafi's image for no reason apperantly other than the assistance of America with the concomitant qualifier of oil in the region. It is to these less-than-stellar observers to whom I speak.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Well for the sake of Lybia

I do hope the investigation is real, and if a trial is held, it is not kangaroo.

But to me this is a bit of a strawman. At least a few of us can see this and accept that e was killed in a horrific manner...and he was wanted for war crimes.

[malaise]

88. Thank you n/t

[zappaman]

84. the weepy sanctimonious know-it-alls

will tell you it's a strawman.
The reality is, no matter how many stories they make up about their life experiences, that they have no business judging people who lived under a evil, despicable, tyrannical dictator and got their due revenge.
And to continually insist that we in the US have somehow lost our rights to due process or a fair trial is bullshit.
Poor guy didn't get a trial? Guess what? Neither did thousands of innocent people he put to death.

[Bonobo]

101. Who you jivin' with that cosmic debris?

Don't you waste your time on me.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lunatica]

104. What a horrible death if that is true

Monsters killing the monsters they hate.

[Kaleva]

105. Give the guy(s) who shot Gaddafi a medal and call it a day.