Meme in defense of police action...but they used less than lethal!

[nadinbrzezinski]

While I prefer they are using less than lethal, far preferable than oh full metal jackets...there is a problem and why this don't work.

1.- They are being deployed against people exercising their rights. They have a chilling effect, and let's be honest I ain't looking forwards to a whiff of pepper spray. Partly I already know it hurts like a mother.

2.- Let's also understand this, less than lethal can still kill.

So if you come across any idiot online, realize there is a good chance it's either a prococateour or highly confused.

Will the beatings and sprayings and the rest continue? Yup, I am afraid such. But it is not ok when police officers are deployed this way.

Oh and thank heavens for less than lethal, when properly deployed...hint this is not it, they do save lives.

[Fumesucker]

1. All but three politicians in the US think it's just fine the cops act this way..

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. "But we didn't kill them" doesn't fly. What a pathetic excuse, it is self-accusatory.

[meow2u3]

12. "But we didn't kill them" doesn't fly is right

They sure as hell put them in the hospital and seriously injured them. Either way, they still shed blood. No justification whatsoever.

[Fire Walk With Me]

3. If the cops can get away with saying "but at least we didn't kill them", so can every citizen, right

?

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Assaulting a cop could get tricky

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. I was talking about fights and spousal abusers, etc. It's far too much of a double-standard.

How to turn it back upon them in mockery? We are clever folk. Where is the pivot?

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. The pivot will be at courts

People need to be willing to go to jail, refuse bail, and demand jury trials.

Like oh...the civil rights movement.

[Arctic Dave]

5. Like I have stated before, these actions are a blatant repression of rights.

They are also an overt use of violence to silence and intimidate people from joining this movement.

The fact that the california democratic party nor the national democratic party hasn't insisted the mayor of oakland resign says they agree with these actions against people exercising their rights.


Tweet a dirty picture and they howl to no end for you to resign, oversee police brutality and not a peep.

[redgiant]

6. Thanks

You confirmed what I already suspected about your motives.

But, you go on with your own meme.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. And my motives would be?

Oh yes read the first Ammendment. Took an oath, and take it seriously. The other one I took is also quiet serious.

Now go watch cops. Unlike you I learned some of this in the actual streets and this is through the looking glass.

And yes son, they were putting their own safety on line there by using that particular tool wrong.

I think you can find cops somewhere in the line up. You might even be lucky enough to see propper use of these tools.

[Webster Green]

13. WTF are you talking about?

What motives?

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Pointing out cops violated their own procedures

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2210442#2210950

[redgiant]

15. Asserted, but did not prove

You have asserted the Denver police violated their own procedures. You have offered no proof other than your opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Okie dokie

Whatever dude.

[redgiant]

17. Whatever, yourself! Denver PD Use of Force policy here

http://www.denvergov.org/portals/326/documents/105.pdf

See page 105-11 for Pepper Ball System Deployment.

Please point out the violation of procedure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Alas procedure manuals do not

State propper range. That is done in the academy son. Show me a department that does have and I will be shocked.

It almost makes me wish they make that basic mistake to be honest, but that means actual people get actually hurt.

Since you like tapes so much, there is an actual demonstration of such weapon system from the history channel, modern marvels, less than lethal it's called. Go find it on you tube and pay CAREFUL attention at what happens when saith pepper spray balls impact the target. That might illuminate this hard concept for you...it's called ideal range. And so far it's gone whoosh over your head.

[redgiant]

19. You keep changing the goal post

I'm not your son and please don't be patronizing. You keep mentioning that video thing, which is another puerile attempt to belittle me. I mentioned that type of video because it shows real officers in real situations where they need to make arrests or perform their duties in dangerous situations. They draw their weapons and/or are covered by officers who do so. All within SOP.

BTW, did you read the entire news account of the incident linked in the OP?

Excerpts: "Two of the protesters were held for felony charges after police said an officer was knocked off his motorcycle and other officers were kicked, as they moved into the park to tear down illegal tents...Protesters there surged around about eight police officers. Other officers responding to calls for help fired the pepper bullets, which resemble paint balls...About a dozen of the angriest marchers stood nose-to-nose with police and screamed profanity or anti-Wall Street slogans."

But, then again, for you, this isn't really about the "proper range" for deploying pepper balls, is it?

I've said all I need to. You may have the last word and carry on your meme.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Alas that's been the goal post at all times

As far as this conversation was concerned. Point blank range if you pull trigger with those puppies will affect officer safety. Go re-read all of it.

And that is the point you keep missing. I think on purpose.

At a meta level yes, there are constitutional issues. But when people scream they should obey orders...well it is not toilet paper. But that was NOT the discussion I was having with you. It was on the DEPLOYMENT of a particular LTL system.

[pintobean]

26. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[lunatica]

22. You don't know her or anyone here well enough to accuse anyone of motives

You really should get to know people before you pass judgement.

[pnwmom]

7. Can't pepper spray be lethal for an asthmatic? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. For example

[Zhade]

20. Yeah? Well, for the record: I SUPPORT LESS-THAN-LETHAL REVOLUTION.

Chew on that, 1% motherfuckers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Me too

Ghandhi comes to mind.

[csziggy]

24. "Less than lethal" does not exist - theatrical blanks can kill

If fired at close range. And they don't include an actual projectile.

From a list of recommended safety procedures for the use of theatrical firearms:

2. ALWAYS MAINTAIN A MINIMUM DISTANCE OF TWENTY (20) FEET BETWEEN THE MUZZLE OF THE FIREARM AND ANY ANIMATE OBJECT OR PERSON BEING FIRED UPON. “CHEAT’ THE ACTION BY AIMING OFF TO THE SIDE TOWARDS A SAFE POINT SO THAT NO PERSON OR ANIMAL IS IN THE DIRECT LINE OF FIRE. An appropriate Lexan shield should be used to protect the camera and crew whenever fire is directed in that vicinity. Remember, hearing can be damaged at close range.

3. USE EQUAL CARE IN MAINTAINING A CLEAR AREA TO THE SIDES OF THE FIREARM. Be aware that revolvers have a slight gap between the rear of the barrel and the front of the cylinder, and that high pressure gases, powder particles, and sound escape through this area to either side of the weapon. A minimum distance of ten (10) feet should be maintained on each side of the gun to protect against particulate matter and potentially harmful noise.

More: http://centrefirearms.com/safety.html

From the video and the descriptions of the action of law enforcement, they are not allowing even this safety margin while using weapons firing projectiles.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Alas that is the point I made.

They can kill.

[Fire Walk With Me]

27. Nixon: "When the President does it, it's not a crime."

When the police do it, it's okay? Fuck that, entirely. Unaccountable...

[backscatter712]

28. Today, at Occupy Denver, I saw a protester with a welt from a pepperball gun right between his eyes!

The cops are firing those weapons at people's faces, which is a serious no-no.

This protester is incredibly lucky - it landed right between the eyes on the bridge of his nose, thus he'll heal. But imagine if that pepperball went half an inch to the left or half an inch to the right - he would have lost an eye! Maybe even died!

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Oh wait I made that point up thread.!

[backscatter712]

31. Indeed, and what I saw with my own eyes validates that point.

That kid is very very lucky...

[pintobean]

30. Wow

Thanks for the info.