Alabama school board to hire 60 TFA teachers costing $5,000 each above salary.

[madfloridian]

That would make a total of $300,000 to TFA in just one year.

The district in Birmingham has a $30 million dollar deficit facing next year, yet they chose to PAY $300,000 to hire 60 teachers rather than hire local teachers who are looking for work. They could do that without a recruiting fee.

Also remember these teachers are trained for just a few weeks, so they are coming to the job not as trained as teachers with full certificates.

Hat tip to education blogger Susan Ohanian for this information.

Birmingham Board of Education votes 5-4 to hire 60 teachers through Teach for America

I don't know the members of the Birmingham Board of Education. But I have met Virginia Volker, and I know of her history of standing up for Birmingham students. It's good to know she still stands firm. Besides all the other negatives, note this one: TFA teachers come with a cost of $5,000 per teacher, per year beyond the standard starting teacher's salary.

Here is more on the hirings from The Birmingham News.

Birmingham Board of Education votes 5-4 to hire 60 teachers through Teach for America

The voting was done in closed session.

After a closed session to discuss the legal ramifications of approving the contract, the board voted 5-4 to hire the teachers. Board members Virginia Volker, Edward Maddox, Tyrone Belcher and Emanuel Ford voted against the contract.

Board member Alana Edwards, who was the swing vote on the issue, voted in favor of the contract after requesting the closed session. After more than an hour of discussion and public comment, the board first tabled consideration of the item, then decided to go into the closed session.

The board members who voted against the contract said the school district can't afford to hire 60 teachers through Teach for America because they come with a cost of $5,000 per teacher, per year beyond the standard starting teacher's salary. The fee to hire 60 teachers through Teach for America for two years each would be $600,000.

The school district is facing a $30 million deficit in fiscal 2012.

Wonder how many experienced teachers were laid off to hire TFA teachers with only 5 weeks of training?

From student to teacher in 5 weeks...TFA recruits play bigger role.

Four months ago, Jamila Best was still in college. Two months ago, she started training to become a teacher. Monday morning, the 21-year-old will walk into a D.C. classroom, take a deep breath and dive into one of the most difficult assignments in public education.

Best is one of 4,500 Teach for America recruits placed in public schools this year after five weeks of summer preparation. The quickly expanding organization says that the fast track enables talented young instructors to be matched with schools that badly need them -- and the Obama administration agrees. This month, Teach for America won a $50 million federal grant that will help the program nearly double in the next four years.

But many educators and experts question the premise that teaching is best learned on the job and doesn't require extensive study beforehand. They wonder how Best and her peers will handle tough situations they will soon face. Best, with a Howard University degree in sociology and psychology, will teach students with disabilities at Cesar Chavez Parkside Middle School in Northeast Washington. She has none of the standard credentials for special education.

In fact many districts are laying off teachers and hiring TFA teachers in their place. In cases like that only TFA is getting the benefit. It is costing the districts far more to hire these inexperienced teachers than to hire locally for free....and the children will pay the cost in the long run.

Getting rid of tenured teachers is the ultimate goal now of this administration, and this is a big step toward that goal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. I just don't even know what to say anymore

Thanks mad.

[Starry Messenger]

2. recommend.

[xchrom]

3. Recommend

[snappyturtle]

4. I don't know which is worse: TFA or NCLB. nt

[madfloridian]

5. Or RTTT for that matter.

Keeping Race to the Top even if they get rid of NCLB....just as harmful if not more so. That means closing schools and turning them around into something else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. UNION BUSTING

[Raksha]

9. Absolutely. Can't think what else it COULD be.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

18. I think you are right.

[caraher]

7. But wouldn't experienced teachers come in with a higher base pay?

Not that they *should* be hiring TFA teachers - I just don't think the extra $5k is the main issue, and it may work out to less money that that. A $5k premium over 2 years would be a bargain IF they were getting the best teachers.

The real problem, of course, is that the TFA folks are basically getting a crash course in teaching - basically on-the-job training - and aren't necessarily going to make teaching a career. (At the university where I teach the student paper called the program "Teach for Your Resume.") Schools should be hiring experienced teachers...

[madfloridian]

19. You agree with paying to recruit teachers from outside the state? When locals are laid off?

That is shocking to me.

[caraher]

24. No, I don't agree with doing that

I was really writing in a more theoretical way. I didn't follow any of the links and didn't read carefully enough in the OP to see that there had actually been layoffs (and upon re-reading I still don't see any numbers on layoffs directly related to this).

My only point is that *if* there were (and there isn't!) reason to believe TFA teachers were substantially more effective the recruitment fee wouldn't seem bad at all. Focusing on the recruitment fee detracts from the more important point that plugging in TFA recruits is a step backwards.

[madfloridian]

26. I focused on both. Yes, there have been many layoffs in many cities.

A search will show that.

A recruitment fee to hire teachers with 5 weeks boot camp training is ridiculous stuff...of course it is.

It's amazing you would defend it.

[caraher]

27. Where did I defend it?

I said the larger issue is that they're hiring less competent teachers.

Saying that the $5k is not as big a deal as the experience/training issue scarcely constitutes a defense of the decision!

[WinkyDink]

21. You DO know you answered your own question?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snappyturtle]

69. From the TFA website here's what is offerred to TFA "teachers":

TFA "teachers":

1) Salary
2) Health insurance
3) Retirement benefits
4) Money to repay student loans
5) Loan forebearance and paid interest for 2 years
6) Money for re-location

VS.

Conventionaal teachers by typical employers:

1) Salary
2) Retirement benefits
3) Health insurance

If you were a recent graduate with heavy student loan debt and unable to find work in your field, the TFA program would be quite attractive. I personally know of a young woman three years out of college and employed by a Houston, TX threater to make costumes (she graduated with a threatrical degree) who is now an elementary teacher!

[bluestateguy]

8. I am beginning to really dislike that program

Why not just scrap this program and use the money to give grants to school districts with the mandate that the money be used to hire qualified teachers?

[Recursion]

12. Because of the 20 recent college grads I know, it's the only job 16 of them could find (nt)

[d_r]

10. that's unbelievable

[Fumesucker]

11. K&R

[mike_c]

13. I am living proof that on-the-job-teacher-training isn't a very good plan....

Let me qualify that by saying that-- in my opinion-- I'm an excellent teacher. I'm knowledgeable, enthusiastic, and well versed in pedagogical best practices, at least for university age adult education.

It just took me nearly 20 years to achieve that success "on-the-job." Like many educators in higher-ed, I received essentially zero formal training in pedagogy-- like most professors, my training was all in my professional disciplines. I was trained to be a research scientist, then given a classroom where I pay my dues for access to my lab and field work.

I'm faculty at the California State University, so teaching excellence is part of my job description. But with no training, it really did take many years-- more than my first decade, certainly-- to get to where I am today in the classroom. I've ALWAYS regretted the lack of training in teaching and learning. I can look back and remember lots of classes that I did a crappy job with, simply because I didn't know what I was doing. Sure, I know my field-- but that doesn't make anyone an effective teacher. It just doesn't.

on edit-- I really admire anyone who is willing to enter this profession through such a trial-by-fire introduction. Seriously. I just question whether many of them will go through the same professional development trajectory that I went through, and do as poorly as I certainly did during those first few years.

[madfloridian]

14. TX has spent 8 million hiring TFA teachers.

From December:

Texas lawmakers to examine if TFA teachers are worth the 8 million spent by the state.

"Texas lawmakers have ordered a study of Teach for America to help determine if the Peace Corps-like program, which recruits top college graduates to work in needy schools, is worth the state's $8 million investment.

The evaluation, due to the Legislature by Jan. 31, could serve as a key discussion piece as lawmakers debate how to slash the state's budget, with a shortfall estimated to top $20 billion.

The state devoted $8 million to Teach for America over the last two years. The funding, $4 million annually, went to training, especially to help teachers with science and math instruction and with limited-English students, according to the Texas Education Agency. Local school districts cover the teachers' salaries."

[chervilant]

50. Sigh...

And, here I sit, 55 years old and unemployed for more than a year, unable to find a single school administrator here in Texas who will interview me for a teaching position.

I am fortunate to have a part-time position 'teaching' college algebra and trigonometry in a small community college (I'm a Supplemental Instruction Leader). My students constantly tell me that I am helping them understand more math than they've ever known. We have fun, productive sessions. The knowledge that I'm truly helping these young people sustains me, and affirms my decision to become a teacher.

I've realized that I will have an easier time getting a teaching position if I get my MS in math. BUT, never in my wildest imaginings did I think I'd be a gradual student at 55 -- in MATH, no less! I find myself relishing this next step, since I love math. I remain hopeful that I'll get a teaching gig somewhere, or that I can build a tutoring business, so that I can remain financially solvent in these last few years of my life.

[madfloridian]

63. I wish the best for you.

And I am glad I am out of the system now and retired. I would be unable to contain my anger, I fear.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

16. "Henny Pennies are a dime a dozen on this board." You say I am "shilling"?

And no I am not "paid".

I consider that an insult.

TFA is making a profit by using their connections to higher-ups in this administration....and using those connections to replace experienced teachers.

DU is becoming negative territory for teachers.

[madfloridian]

17. I resent you implied I am paid operative..

[Pisces]

29. And???? You should resent that we are 31st in science, 23rd in math. That is what I resent.

Anyone with a good idea on how to fix this situation should have an opportunity to share their idea. Teachers are not being fired en masse. This is a program to help college graduates and inner city
kids. Kids are inspired more often by kids close to their age and not by people with biases who have been in the system for a long time.

[madfloridian]

34. Share your ideas all you want. Just don't call names and be insulting.

I taught for well over 30 years, I am not stupid, and I know privatization when I see it.

[sulphurdunn]

67. The data you presented needs some analysis.

Performance of American public school students on international tests is a function of the number of parents in the home, the income levels of those parents and their levels of formal education. As those values decline, for whatever reason, so does performance. American public k-12 schools with less than 20% rates of poverty in their student bodies score in the top tier of international math and science assessments. One fifth of all American k-12 public schools have poverty rates of from 75 to 100%. Twenty-two percent of school age children live in single parent homes. Thirty percent of these families live below the poverty line. Approximately a quarter of all school age children live in poverty. No other developed nation, against whom our children are compared on the basis of international tests, tolerates such shameful social conditions. Believe me, TFA has no interest in changing any of that. Indeed, TFA is cashing in on it.

[Confusious]

86. Kids are inspired more often by kids close to their age

Naa, when we got the student teacher or the inexperienced teacher all hell broke loose.

[WinkyDink]

22. Are you a Bill Gates shill?

[Starry Messenger]

23. We know what TFA is, hon.

Ostriches with their heads buried in the sand are more common around these parts. I'd think a stanch Dem like yourself would be concerned at the erosion of a strong union. You know, since most of them vote D...in the millions.

[Michigan-Arizona]

25. I'm thinking that madfloridian just care's about kid's

I'm thinking that madfloridian just care's about kid's having a chance at a decent education in this country. I for one follow her posting's to keep myself, family & friends informed at what is happening with our education system. Thank you madfloridian for all you do & no matter what others say please do not stop at trying to keep us updated.

[Pisces]

28. These TFA teachers go into urban schools with poor test scores. Young college graduates who want to

make a difference and inspire kids to higher education. They are not getting a worse education. This is not a failed program, yet many on this board want to tear it down because it feels like a threat to
tenured teachers, which it is not. These kids are hired for a 2 year term after they graduate.

Why is there no positive feedback on any new idea out there??? Our standing in the world is 23rd in math, 31st in science??? Do you really think it could get worse for our children???

Teachers are not being fired en masse. This is ridiculous that everything is blown out of proportion to try and garner outrage, when we should be outraged that are children are falling so far behind.

[madfloridian]

35. Baloney. I taught in a very poor neighborhood. TFA had 5 weeks.

I had 4 years of training, and I had experience.

Your argument does not hold water at all.

[Igel]

42. They're interns.

Thing about internship programs is that they have extremely high wash-out rates.

Intern in year 1, intern year 2, and you're looking at a higher wash-out rate than student teaching + 2 years in the classroom.

I've known teachers who have done the intern route to certification and they all say it's unwieldy: First-year teachers that have been fairly well trained have no time to eat or breathe, they're so busy with stuff at school, wrangling paper, preparing lessons. Now, take a new teacher who isn't well trained *and* has to continue their own training.

There's positive feedback on new ideas that work. In this case, it's not a new idea. Moreover, it doesn't really work. For a few thousand $ you can pay for a post-bac program that provides better training than TFA does *and* includes student teaching (this also isn't a new idea).

Could it get worse for our children? Yes. In trying to increase our ranking administrators have two choices: They can get the bottom 25% of students to do better or get the top 25% of students to do better. The bottom 25% has a bigger impact, feels good, has all the right ideological content behind it. But in working on the bottom 25% you take time to review, review, review--and unless you have enough good students to form separate classes *and* there's no obvious racial/religious/ethnic skew to peeling out the good students you warehouse them in classrooms that are reviewing and reviewing and reviewing. Those few additional percentage points at the bottom show up in the rankings--but the real drivers of scientific and engineering innovation aren't those students, but the 10% at the top. They're "privileged" and "advantaged," so we don't give a hang about them. It's bending the future innovation curve downwards.

The usual come back is that a good teacher can find work to keep the high-achieving kids engaged. Right. You teach two courses, differentiate both courses for limited-English proficient students, handle the special needs kids' IEPs, help teach reading to the junior at a 7th grade reading level, deal with the kids in the class that failed last year, deal with classroom management issues, reporting requirements, and the incessant high-stakes standardized tests and what do you get? A teacher who's already swamped being told that because s/he can't differentiate two courses 9 ways each instead of the 8 ways s/he already needs to and the 3 ways there's actually time for.

[upi402]

62. I feel informed after reading your reply

Thanks for the insights.

Anecdote warning!
My kid tried to start a junior high math club (similar to a chess club).
So they allowed a math study hall instead.
He wasn't into tutoring kids for the school, which he was relegated to in elementary.
So he made a powerpoint showing his outline and format for a physics club - at 12 years old - and gave it to the principal.

That did it.

He was an outcast in elementary because he is not Christian, but now loves junior high and is thriving.

[Pisces]

68. 20% of the people do 80% of the work in most business sales models. It is true that you can

get and expect more from the top than the bottom. Getting the bottom to increase by small percentages can do wonders for the company but it will come at a cost if you are focused on them and not
the top. This isn't a business though, and we can not afford to throw away the bottom children. This is the direct reason why Charter schools have taken off. They do weed out the bottom and reward the top ( the good ones that people are competing by lottery to get into) This is also what everyone on this board is against because it takes away from the public school funding.

[Confusious]

87. Charter schools don't do any better then regular schools

And they can dump the shitty students back into the public school system.

[Jakes Progress]

44. Oh. The MSM is strong with this one.

There is zero evidence (other than their own advertising) the TFA teachers are any better (most are worse) than real teachers. Don't get all starry eyed because they "volunteer" to go work in poor schools. They don't do a very good job there and they leave long before they learn how to teach.

Tell you what. I bet a bunch of newly graduated college kids might like to try being doctors. Let's give them three months of anatomy and then let them treat your kids. I mean, golly, wouldn't it be great to have these inspiring youngsters operating on your children? We have such a poor health care record compared to the industrialized nations that we must need a bunch of amateurs to fix that.

Or how about our legal system. We keep putting the wrong people in jail. Let's let your legal matters be handled by some kids who though Boston Legal was a hoot. They can watch reruns of LA Law and then draw up some contracts for you.

I've got a 16 year old nephew who likes numbers. How about we let him do your taxes this year?

What is blown out of proportion is the outrage about some test scores. You are so bothered by them. Do you know what they tested? Do you know the methodologies and matrices used? How valid and repeatable are the assessment items?

Peddle you uninformed hysteria elsewhere. There are people here who know about this stuff. Madfloridian is one. You are not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. I AM an urban teacher and have been surrounded by these TFAers for several years now

THEY SUCK.

Most are incredibly kind and generous young people who think they're making a difference. But you can't go to summer camp and learn how to be a teacher.

You can read all you want and convince yourself you understand what's going on here. But I am actually on the front lines with TFA and know first hand that they are largely incompetent.

Our kids deserve better.

[Dappleganger]

90. A TFA teacher would be my worst nightmare

for our youngest son, particularly in elementary school. Each year at the end of the school year we are asked as parents to give an evaluation of our child's year with his current teacher, then to describe what his/her next ideal teacher would be like. This gives the principal some guidance when she makes class assignments during the summer.

Our youngest son has ADHD and has always been a challenge in the classroom. Every year I would ask for the same type of teacher (and knowing that their principal usually made good choices): "Our son is a challenging student and requires the expertise and patience of a mature, seasoned teacher who knows how to handle and inspire such a child."

Needles to say, he would always end up with the most mature (oldest), most-experienced (knew how to handle ADHD issues, which can take YEARS to learn) sweetest teacher in that grade. It never failed.

A TFA teacher would not and could not *ever* fit that kind of a description.

[chervilant]

51. Wow.

You might help your position by substantiating your assertions, or -- at the very least -- using better grammar.

Yes, it WILL get a LOT worse for our children -- AND for us.

BTW, simply google 'mass firings of teachers' to obtain a laundry list of the mass firings that have occurred since Obama appointed Arne Duncan SecEd.

If you haven't figured out that the Corporate Megalomaniacs have usurped our global economy and now drive every significant GLOBAL economic decision, you had better get a clue soon. The Corporate Megalomaniacs are sitting in their insular and well-appointed mansions or boardrooms, rubbing their hands together and chuckling with glee. Overpopulation? No problem! A few well-placed rabble-rousers vomiting divisive hate-mongering and fear-mongering rhetoric, and people die. Problem solved. (Rinse, wring, repeat...)

Despite an urge to point out more ways the Corporate Megalomaniacs control and dehumanize us (how about radical income inequity? privatizing public education? destroying workers' unions?), I will simply adjure: read Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. REALLY read it! We the People are smart and resourceful. Surely, we can figure out how to throw off the shackles of this global economic slavery. A good first step will be rejecting divisive, hate-mongering and fear-mongering rhetoric (et tu, Pisces...).

Our nation has an incredibly high rate of adult illiteracy, Pisces, which means that our system of public education has had serious problems for several decades. Newcomers like Arne Duncan and Michelle Rhee have been scrambling to find ANYTHING ('public' education) or ANYONE (teachers) to blame. Since their problem du jour is 'bad teachers' (an egregious oversimplification of the myriad problems threatening public education), I am eternally grateful to madfloridian for posting her informative and essential Journal entries.

(Willful ignorance is rather unbecoming...)

[Dappleganger]

88. These TFA's have no vested interest in those children.

They have no vested interested in their families or their communities. They are there to earn some extra money, then cut out and become the next Michelle Rhee.

Give me a seasoned, properly-trained teacher any day of the week. If his methods aren't working then help *him*. Don't bring in someone who is using that classroom as a stepping stone to their next job.

[WinkyDink]

20. Why does the board think they need to offer more $$? TFA's just want their nose under the tent.

[Pisces]

31. I guess no one wants to bring up substitute teachers who only need a degree to sub. They also get

paid more than some teachers depending on number of days worked. They are not trained at all and can have zero teaching time.

[Starry Messenger]

33. Where do subs get paid more?

Link please. That is not true in CA. Subs are even pro-rated for number of periods they cover in a day, not getting a full day of sub pay unless they cover all six periods of a high school teacher's day.

[Starry Messenger]

38. Here, I'll help you out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_teacher

Pay

Rates of pay for substitute teachers vary widely depending on geographic location, length of assignment and teacher qualifications.

A long-term substitute teacher is a replacement that serves for a designated time period. Long-term substitutes are most often certified in the same academic specialty as the teacher they are relieving.

In the United States the position's national average is about US $80 per day, with rural districts paying as low as $40 per day and larger, urban districts, paying over $200 per day.<2><3>. Most substitute teachers in the U.S. can be assigned to work in all academic subject areas as needed (except long term substituting assignments). The substitute is generally responsible for closely following and continuing with the lesson plans left by the teacher, and to maintain student order and productivity. Substitute teachers can often work in multiple schools within one district, as well as for multiple school districts.



Even the highest, at $200 a day, makes less than $40,000 a year assuming the school district is at 180 days (many aren't anymore) and assuming they are hired for an entire school year. I myself have never seen $200 a day for sub pay, but assuming wiki is accurate, that is still quite low on average for the usual teacher. edit to add: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Substitute_Teacher,_K-12/Hourly_Rate Oakland subs only get $152 a day *at best*, and that is pretty urban.

[LooseWilly]

39. Uhh, I've been one of the subs you mention... I can assure you I wasn't worth 5K more than salary

I subbed in Oakland, and I can assure you that I was not paid more than any full time teachers no matter how many days I worked. In fact, if the teacher I substituted for didn't have enough "prep periods" to spread out the day to 7+ hours, my pay was pro-rated down. (If there were too many prep periods and my day went over 7 hours... well, salaries don't pro-rate in that direction in Oakland.)

Which is only fair, because I wasn't worth as much as an experienced teacher, and certainly not worth $5k more than a teacher who's gone through the hassle of obtaining a credential.

I wasn't worth as much because—I had zero teaching time.

I eventually wound up subbing in schools in West Oakland, East Oakland, North Oakland, the hills and even that stretch that I like to refer to as Middle East Oakland. Turns out Oakland sub pay is 20% less than Sacramento sub pay. After two weeks of a long-term assignment pay actually rises for a sub by about 25%... but the "two weeks" was interpreted to only include class time— so weekends, holidays, teacher development days, assemblies, etc. don't count toward that "two weeks" (subs doing a long-term assignment also only get paid for class time, nothing for any work outside the class to do any lesson planning or grading or what have you).

After a long-term assignment that I worked, several of the kids actually collaborated on a drawing to thank me and tell me that I was a great teacher. I think the four of them might've been just about the only ones that could hear me over the other kids that never stopped talking— the only thing that would distract them from talking to their friends was being forced to talk to me. With class sizes between 35 and 40... teaching was nigh impossible, teaching more than the three or four who were actually dying to learn that is.

Maybe, with years of experience I could've learned to shut the little buggers up long enough to teach them a thing or two.

I was teaching math though, and it quickly became obvious, as I worked at solving the algebraic equations underlining the pro-rating mysteries of my erratic checks, that I could make more money babysitting that many kids than I could as a substitute teacher babysitting them.

The notion of paying $5K extra to a de facto temp agency, like TFA, for fresh out of school teachers... it's mind-bottling.

I drove a taxi in Oakland for years before I went into the schools, so I had years of cynicism to immunize me in the face of the system... but there was another teacher at Elmhurst middle school who looked like she was about to have a nervous breakdown near the end of her first semester.

The notion that the schools just need a new batch of enthusiastic teachers to fix them up is jaw-droppingly idiotic. What the schools need is simple— reduced class sizes to allow teachers the time to actually teach the students who really need the attention.

The lowest performing schools need more resources. They need the support of the community—the parents/guardians need to care enough to make the kids care. As long as all the monied interests in the country are too selfishly worried that their tax dollars might be going "unevenly" toward those with a greater need though, forget about it. The system is screwed. Trying to bust unions so connected college grads can get jobs despite the hollowing out of the overall economy through corporate offshoring is not a solution to the education system.

[Starry Messenger]

40. Oh, and while we're at it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/28/us-newyorkcity-teachers-idUSTRE70R7DQ20110128?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

New York City may have to lay off 15,000 teachers: mayor

(Reuters) - New York City might have to lay off 15,000 teachers if the state, grappling with a $10 billion deficit, cuts the city's education budget by $1 billion, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said on Friday.

The city has around 75,000 teachers and Bloomberg is already planning to lay off around 6,000 to help deal with New York City's deficit for the next fiscal year. In December, the budget director predicted the city's budget gap could rise to $4.4 billion, depending on state cuts.

Like many cities, towns and states, New York is struggling with the end of the federal stimulus program. The city is losing $800 million. This is why Bloomberg was already preparing to lay off so many teachers.



So your assertion that teachers are not being fired en masse? Also horse-pucky. In our line of work they don't call it being fired, of course, it is simply a "Reduction in Force", like stomach stapling or something. If you think for a minute that the old-timers are going to be hired back over fresh-cheeked TFA teachers who will cry if told "boo" from a principal, you need to think again. You are dangerously misinformed, Fishlady.

[Pisces]

61. They are not firing 75k teachers to replace them with TFA teachers. That is a budget shortfall

that all states are grappling with. I do not agree with teacher reduction regardless of the budget.

[erodriguez]

83. New York city has had a hiring freeze for the last 3 school years... Yet,

they still hire TFA teachers and just renewed the contract with TFA this summer for $5 million.

I am a teacher with a masters degree and 8 years experience teaching with poor urban kids with special needs. I have been trying to find work in the NYC school system for two years I have spoken to principals and even a relative in the DOE human resources department. All have said thay cannot hire me because of the freeze.

I know am more qualified to teach urban kids than any TFA newbie.

TFA is a complete scam. It cons naive TFA teachers into thinking they are doing a great thing by "giving back" to urban communities, while cutting the legs out from under dedicated educators.

[madfloridian]

85. Yep, the hiring freeze doesn't extend to TFA, only to those like you

with experience and higher degrees. It's amazing how they have perpetuated this lowering of standards for teachers and made it sound like a good thing.

[Starry Messenger]

41. Cat got your tongue?

Here fishy fishy!

[Starry Messenger]

54. K

[Jakes Progress]

45. You are embarrassing yourself by puffing such nonsense.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Take a deep breath. Read a lot. Try Gerald Bracey's stuff from Ed Week. Then get a copy of "Manufactured Crisis" by Dave Berliner and Bruce Biddle. Then come back and try again.

[madfloridian]

46. Gerald Bracey is greatly missed. I still read his stuff from Huff Post.

It reminds me we lost an important voice.

He was part of the development of this cartoon...says so much.

[Jakes Progress]

75. On another thread

some one asked what you would do if you had 30 face-to-face minutes with Obama.

I said I would give him copies of Bracey's Ed Week articles on assessment and a copy of Berliner and Biddle's book. I said that if he hadn't fired arne duncan within two weeks, it would mean that he couldn't or didn't read the material or he didn't give a damn about children. No thinking and caring person could read Bracey's yearly reports and support what is happening.

[chervilant]

56. hmm...

Are you having fun down there, in the bottom of the hole you're digging?

[Pisces]

59. I was doing my own research, and you are right they don't get paid more than most teachers.

They also do not get any training, you just need a degree in most areas. This still does not change my position that we need to be open to all ideas. Especially in poor, urban areas where we are losing
kids to drugs, violence and poverty. This isn't an afterschool special I am promoting. These things are happening in my city. No one who has the capability wants to send their kids to a southside
school. They are underfunded and violent.


Why are the ususal suspects on this board ( I won't call out the 5 or so that always post negative stories) so against any new idea??? The cry is that we care about the kids, yet the kids are falling further
behind and we are losing them anyway. Shouldn't we try everything before we throw up our hands and continue with the status quo????

Where are your positive stories about your ideas being implemented and why the country should follow that example?? Stop telling me what you are against and tell what you are for.

[Starry Messenger]

60. Why should anyone listen to you when you constantly attack and post inaccuracies?

Talk about a usual suspect. :eyes: You are nothing *but* hostile to teachers, and plenty have posted ideas here that don't involve union busting and you'd have to be willfully ignoring them not to know that. I'm not doing any more of your homework for you, just do a search on any of the "usual suspects".

Underfunded and violent schools don't happen because of "bad" teachers, they happen because of shitty funding. Tax the fucking rich, fund the schools, fund the jobs that the parents need to have. You think hiring sweet little young inexperienced white kids is going to help in an urban school? Please...

[Pisces]

64. I have never been hostile to teachers. It is telling that having an opposing view to you

makes me hostile to teachers. I am also opposed to union busting, where did I state we should bust the unions???

Funding the jobs that the parents need to have?? What do you think is going on here. Even when jobs were more plentiful there we were consistently falling behind. Parents are not going to get smarter and they are not going to be able to help their children with homework when they barely made it through school or dropped out. Are the parents to blame for most of it, yes they are. Ok now what???
This does not break the poverty cycle knowing the problem. I am not blaming the teachers, I think we need new ideas to grab as many of these kids as possible to break the cycle.

Starry eyed white kids?? Why do they have to be white? Many of these graduate came from Spelman college, a predominately black college. Here are the stats on applications:

These applicants included "11 percent of the senior classes at Amherst and Spelman; 10 percent of those at University of Chicago and Duke; and more than eight percent of the graduating seniors at Notre Dame, Princeton and Wellesley."

You have made up your mind about me, and you don't know me at all.

[Starry Messenger]

65. You are the one who said we were paid shills. That isn't hostile?

Establish some credibility with something other than "subs are paid more" and teachers here are "paid shills" and maybe, just maybe...someday someone might try to have a good faith discussion with you. Until then, ta ta.

[Jakes Progress]

74. You are hostile to teachers.

You have called teachers on this forum - teachers who really do know what is happening - shills. You call out the "four or five" teachers that you say are "always" against new ideas. That is obvious hostility.

You see nothing wrong with replacing trained, experienced teachers with kids on a lark or in need of a job for a year or two. Do you have kids? Would you rather your child is taught by an ivy kid with five weeks training or by someone like MadFloridian who has the experience, the expertise, and the long term desire to help children? You answer to that would say a lot about you.

You fuss that people have made up their mind about you without knowing you. This after you tell us exactly what motivates the teachers who have replied to you, after you have trashed them for caring about what happens to kids. You seem to thin that you are th only one who gets to divine people's nature without knowing them. We know you all right.

You want "new" things. You want to try anything and everything without knowing whether it will harm or help. Just because an idea is "new" doesn't mean it is good. Those of us who know how learning takes place and what schools need would be happy to welcome things that would help. But we know that these things don't help and will only accelerate the corporatizing of education. From the sidelines it may look like any novel idea is fun, but a good doctor knows when he or she encounters hype from Pharma. If you want to be a part of this, you should listen to people who really know this stuff. Madfloridian is one of those. Arguing with Mad is a sure sign to most of us that the person arguing has no grounding or understanding.

You toss out MSM cliches like "poverty cycle" and "falling behind" without knowing what they mean. If you seriously wanted to become a productive part of the conversation about education, you need to educate yourself. I gave you a couple of sources above that will serve to wean you from the propaganda of corporate education. Learn what assessments the true shills cite when they bemoan the horrible education in America. You are falling for hokum and hysteria.

[Pisces]

81. I am not arguing with Mad, I am frustrated with the system. I do have children that

are about to enter the school system, so yes, I am a very interested party. I am concerned with the teacher student ratio, the lack of art, music, p.e. in the public school my children would attend.
I am also worried about the new half day kindergarten classes due to lack of funding. While you are arguing about the new ideas, parents like me are living it with the human guinea pigs ( my kids)

I am looking around and it if frightening to me the difference a district makes and that I may have to consider a charter school if art and music is to be a part of the curriculum for my kids. I am fortunate that I am not destitute and at least am not living in the worst school district.

I am not hostile towards teachers, I am sad about the current state of our education that makes you think I am against you. I want the best for my children, that is all, and I am willing to listen
to new ideas not because they are new but because I believe we can do better than the current system. Maybe teachers shouldn't pit it as us vs. them. Many of us are parents worried about the
future. I want my children to compete, and I can't afford to send them to the best private schools to ensure the best education.

From a parents point of view some of these arguments seem like pro union arguments vs. pro children. Parents are worried and scared that the biggest losers will be the kids no matter what happens.

I guess I should just worry about my kids and find them the best school that fits our needs. I have been attacked on this board because I brought up charter schools and their higher rankings. Yes, I know they kick out the kids that can't keep up but this means my kids will be in school with A players as well as getting music, p.e., spanish, and art. Yet, I am torn because I am supportive in public
education and I know that this will be contributing to the overall problem, but I have to consider my kids education vs. ideological purity.

I guess the teachers on this board want this parent to shut up and listen to you. Where does that leave my children today?? Kindergarten is next year, I am grappling with the problem now.

[Jakes Progress]

82. You don't have to shut up.

But you should learn when you can. The teachers on this board are willing to help you do that. But if you want to get your information from corporate pr talking points and want to keep saying the same old tired memes from the reagan era war on education, we will be at odds. Don't shut up. Ask questions.

Schools were better before the republicans began reforming it. They taught more and better. Now the curriculum is narrowed to the tests that you and so many others are obsessed with.

If you are concerned about the lack of art and music and the rising class sizes then you want to support people like those you are complaining about here. Programs like TFA cost more, do less, and never add to the richness of a curriculum. I was there when TFA started. The actually had a pretty good little program for a while. Of course their teachers were inept and uninformed, but they were warm bodies in places that needed warm bodies. Then they became big and corporate. The bottom line is now the important thing. Hence the pr program that depicts them as idealistic and superior. I actually worked on the district level with many of these and some other alternative programs. About a third of those I worked with could have become decent teachers. But they come with a set of opinions and beliefs about how they are there to "fix" the schools, about their own superiority that it take at least a year for them to get it, to understand that they don't know what they are doing and are in over their heads. Then they leave, doing children and districts no good for al the money spent.

You keep chanting that we are arguing about "the new ideas", but you ignore the fact that we are telling you these ideas aren't new. They are only new names for tired old programs, a con game for raking off tax dollars to corporate interests. You want new ideas? We got 'em. You want change? We support it. But you need to give some credence to the people who put in 30 years doing what they were passionate about, learning more every year we did it. Instead, celebrity-dazzled parents want to put their trust in charlatans, con men, and the famous. Bill Gates has said that teachers don't get better after their second year, but instead get worse. He has no research or background for saying this. It just came off his head, and, because he is a billionaire, people listen to him. He has never taught a day. He has said that class size doesn't matter. This is just stupid, but because Bill Gates says it, people think it means something.

And as for your faith in charters. Good luck. Every independent study conducted has proven that, as a whole, they are no more effective or inspiring than public schools as a whole. Of course, that is the kind of research that gets buries in the rush to hysteria. I am serious about the sources I gave you. Try them.

[Dappleganger]

89. It'll be ok.

Trust me. We've had one to graduate last year, another graduates this year and two of ours are in middle school. You will survive just fine.

My suggestion to you is to let your child's teacher know that you intend to be their biggest ally and get involved as much as possible, so that YOU can improve the school your child is in. Once you're involved I have little doubt that the light bulb will suddenly go on and you'll see the truth of what madfloridian and others have been saying all this time.

[madfloridian]

76. Hiring TFA while laying off and breaking tenure IS union busting.

And I have written about that as have many others. Here are several examples.

Teach for America. A way to replace experienced, higher-salaried teachers?

There are several instances mentioned.

[LooseWilly]

70. Uhh, 'scuse me— you ask for "positive stories" and ideas, but don't respond when they're provided?

Do you even read the responses you get?

(From post #39 above):
"The notion that the schools just need a new batch of enthusiastic teachers to fix them up is jaw-droppingly idiotic. What the schools need is simple— reduced class sizes to allow teachers the time to actually teach the students who really need the attention."

Sorry to have "challenged" you by presenting the idea for a solution several paragraphs into the post. I guess I was foolish to suspect someone who was "looking for answers" to actually read through all that text...

By the way, providing the funding so that students who have fallen behind can get more attention in a lower class size setting is not "the status quo". It is actually a far more radical step than trying to delude ourselves that the fresh-out-of-college TFA-esque teachers will all magically cause students on the south side of Chicago, or East or West Oakland, to develop a love and thirst for knowledge— like some sort of unleashed army of Michelle Pfeiffers (Dangerous Minds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIjLUKO7bRY), Nick Noltes (Teachers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-s_JHBDcfw) and Edward James Olmoses (Stand and Deliver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Y1BxtjkMc).

[Blue_Tires]

72. where do subs get more than full-time teachers?

my pay as a sub was $70 daily, and this was in a good, well-funded school system...

[southernyankeebelle]

32. Who are these teacher they are hiring.? Are the with rightwing teaching system or something?

[madfloridian]

36. They are well-connected to the "reformers" who want public schools gone.

I have written about them a lot, not going to link it all here.

It's a huge massive attack on public schools and teachers, and I will never forget that our party is finishing it off.

[snappyturtle]

66. I am OUTRAGED by this assault on education. Thank you madflorian for

keeping education in our consciousness.

I went to the TFA website to gain an outstanding of purpose of this group. Five weeks of "robust" training does not a teacher make. This time I am not adding imho. The first link I'm including here is obviously the newest propanganda. Pre-made lesson plans and videos are made readily available to TFA teachers! That's scary.


"TFANet, our online hub for corps members and alumni, includes thousands of lesson plans, videos, and other resources and is a forum for corps members and alumni to connect."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems that one becomes part of the alumni family after a two year stint of being a 'guided teacher'. After that time can help further the propaganda to other 'teachers' and other social segments, e.g. police departments.


more here:
http://www.teachforamerica.org/the-corps-experience/training-and-ongoing-support/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I encourage everyone to also look at this page linked below. It repeatedly says that the TFA teachers are superior to conventional, certified, licensed teachers.

http://www.teachforamerica.org/about-us/research/

[madfloridian]

79. Take a look at their donors.

http://www.teachforamerica.org/about-us/donors/

They really have power.

Michelle Rhee was a TFA teacher.

http://www.tfa20years.org/tfa2011/Speaker.asp?SpeakerID=49

Regular classroom teachers can't fight that kind of money and power. Especially when both parties are pushing for turning public schools around into charter schools.

Especially when both parties are dying to bust the teachers' union.

[snappyturtle]

84. I'm about ready to go to bed and had to take a peek at DU. Well, I'm

fully awake now! I was flabbergasted at the list:Gates, Dell Foundation, Waltons to name a few! What are they thinking? Don't get me started on Michelle Rhee!

These TFA "teachers" are not equipped to teach period especially in their assigned schools. Those schools need the best the teaching profession has to offer. imho

[madfloridian]

37. It's really worked. It started with Reagan's Nation at Risk....

and it coming to fruition with President Obama.

They have destroyed the reputation of public schools. They had to do it to turn them over to private companies. You can't dismantle what is successful.

So you take money away, you defund, you give the money to private companies to run failing schools...mostly with minorities.

And we fell for it hook line and sinker.

[yurbud]

43. Education ''reform'' is corruption.

[radhika]

47. The deal stinks of Politics...nothing else.

I'm in Adult Ed, under a union. I can assure you a deal like this is pure politics - whether union busting, privatizing, funneling cash to linked corporations or breaking the power of local influence groups. There is no genuine business or educational purpose that would suggest this gerry-rig as a plus for students.

Shame on the School Board, shame on Alabamans for letting it happen.

[madfloridian]

49. It's happening all over.

Too many billionaires butting into education and trying to bust unions...so they can have a little more money for themselves.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cstanleytech]

53. I am not saying that I support this

because I dont due largely to it smelling like some on the board might be getting a kickback in some form or other but I am not saying I am not willing to entertain the idea of this program working either.
My one and only concern is what will produce the best effects for the children to help them learn better and if this is it or if doing away with tenure (which I am hesitate on) for teachers is whats needed in the end then so be it.

[madfloridian]

58. Tenure is simply job security, and teachers can be fired for cause.

The rest is propaganda. I think they have done a magnificent job of painting teachers as being on the dole for public money.

Getting rid of tenure is busting unions. I am amazed now that because Obama is for it, so is much of DU.

I find it strangely odd, but it breaks my heart.

Hiring inexperienced teachers without proper credentials.....shameful. And being done with the Obama administration's blessing.

[benny05]

71. You raise valid points

But what I don't know is how many of them have math and science backgrounds--with the TFA or the locals. If they have those backgrounds, which most teachers don't, then it may be justifiable. I think I would have opted for half of each, depending on skill sets the applicants bring to the table.

I was a teacher once and I could only stick with it for 2 years. My education degree did not help me be an effective teacher.

PSST about Obama--when he campaigned, he said that no new teacher should have tenure: he believed more in merit pay. I always find it fascinating that folks quelled for Obama to be our President, yet it's as though few recall about what he campaigned on. I am sorry for any DU'er who is disappointed, but it's one of those things that those of us who were other candidate supporters remember in studying the campaign speeches at different venues very carefully. In the end, I found Obama/Biden to be a compromise, and that is exactly what we are seeing--centrist at best.

[madfloridian]

73. There is much more to teaching than a math or science background.

It's pretty clear that the media en masse now is calling for an end to tenure, which in turn is an end to teachers' unions.

And even people who support other unions are now calling for an end to teachers' unions.

Bill Gates is powerful, and he is spending a fortune on getting rid of tenured teachers.

And DU is now mostly in favor of busting teachers' unions.

PSST...I complained about Obama's education views during the campaign. I could not go along with the bitterness the Clintons were causing toward Dean by breaking the DNC rules and sneakily undermining him here through the party. It ripped the Democrats in my state apart, and the leaders shunned those of us who were former Dean supporters and DFA.

I started out supporting Edwards. We did donate and support Obama in the end.

However at that time we were Democrats to the end. But now if the Democrats do the same thing as the GOP...then I just don't know.

[Turbineguy]

55. Probably in there somewhere

are some savings. But let's say they pay $40,000 per year to experienced teachers but $25,000 (plus $5000) to the new ones. That would be a nice savings. But it's typical of conservatives to overlook the value they are getting. They are paying $30,000 for a $25,000 product.

As for pre-training and on-the-job learning, there are arguments on both sides. In the end it depends on the individual. When I was in elementary school they hired a 19 year old teacher to teach the 4th grade and then they moved her to the 6th grade two years later. She was the best Teacher I ever had. But that does not mean that all work that way.

[Reader Rabbit]

57. This deal stinks to high heaven.

I bet a little digging would turn up one or more people getting a kickback.

[Initech]

77. Meanwhile this piece of shit is getting a 350% pay raise.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x585478

:grr: :argh:

[sulphurdunn]

78. Putting unaccredited

and untrained teachers in with special needs students is at minimum malfeasance and is maximally child abuse. It would never be tolerated anywhere but in a poor, urban school system catering to mostly minority students. TFA ringleaders ought to be in prison.

[thanks_imjustlurking]

80. You might be able to train an adult with years of work experience in five weeks.

Kids straight out of college in five weeks? Unless they are just natural teaching and classroom management geniuses (and I doubt many are), no way.