Are we really a nation so narrow-minded and nativist that we would deny citizenship to bright and

[pampango]

talented young adults with the brains to become surgeons, engineers or astronauts? Are we so grimly determined to punish illegal border-crossings that we would deport young men and women who want to fight for the United States in Afghanistan?

Yet, we are foreclosing an opportunity to welcome a group of young people with the promise of becoming stellar citizens. The DREAM Act — a bill that would grant “green cards” to, in all likelihood, no more than 1 million of the nation’s 11 million illegal immigrants — is in trouble. It narrowly passed the House last week, but its prospects in the Senate are poor.

An irrational hard line on illegal immigration has come to be one of the most important principles of the Republican Party, a position that its elected officials dare not flout. Only eight Republicans voted for the DREAM Act in the House, and Senate Republicans who used to support it have backed away — no, run away — from it.

Those include Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, who was chief sponsor of the original Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors (DREAM) Act when it was introduced in 2001. Now, he fears a Tea Party challenge of the sort that claimed his Republican colleague from Utah, Sen. Bob Bennett, and he wants nothing to do with the bill.

http://www.saratogian.com/articles/2010/12/13/opinion/doc4d059608548c7906433305.txt

[fascisthunter]

1. we are run by sociopath

therefore the system itself becomes sociopathic... humans in general are secondary unless they can be utilized for power and wealth by the exclusive elite.

[Bluerthanblue]

2. pretty sad.

K&R

[northoftheborder]

3. Shameful attitudes abound. Cowardice rules.

[Drale]

4. The right doesn't want bright and talented young adults

because they are not easy to control. They want stupid people, why do you think they are constantly attacking education?

[Hello_Kitty]

5. I support the DREAM act fully. But must you always take gratuitous swipes at Americans?

Every country has bigots. BTW, the DREAM Act is supported by the majority of Americans. Congress is the problem.

[jemelanson]

6. There are too many people who do not know what the Dream Act is.

All they know is what those opposed to it are saying about it. The lies and the fear that is used all to often by those who can not come up with a real reason to opposed a bill. The Dream Act is very narrow in its scope. It is a path to citizenship for children, who were brought to this country as babies or children by their parents, who entered this country as undocumented aliens. These children have no roots or memory of their parents home country. They are children who are already in the school system, bright minds who want to be citizens, and will do service in the military or have the brains and drive to attend college and be productive tax paying citizens. In return for their service they hope to become citizens. Truly a subversive goal. Guilty of the crime of being brought across the border as children by their parents.

[Hello_Kitty]

7. The polling I've seen shows the majority of Americans supporting it.

Americans are ambivalent about immigration in general but this is a no-brainer.

[Monique1]

8. Nice post but.........

I don't think people here care or pay attention. I am totally for the Dream Act. I know someone is being affected by this - she had a the highest GPA in the history of the school of engineering - she came here at age two, there is no way she can get citizenship - they will send her home and her country will make her stay there for 10 yrs because she was her illegally. She may not ever be able to be a citizen here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Short answer, yes

long answer... it happens every time we have an economic crisis. We blame the outsider for it.

And we never learn either.

[stray cat]

10. Are progressives really in favor of green cards for educated foreigners?

If so great - I would like to see foreign students who get a science related PhD automatically become citizens if they choose.

I also support the dream act -but if we are in favor of talent like the post - let us really open the door

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. This is about the DREAM Act. What about it? Is it a bad idea? If so, why? -nt

[customerserviceguy]

21. Here's the problem I have with it

Why is serving in the military (which gives something to this country) equated with going to college, which costs taxpayers money?

If we made the DREAM Act apply only to those willing to make a sacrifice for the United States, then we'd see very little resistance to it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. Wait, what, being a soldier DOESN'T cost taxpayers money?

:crazy:

[customerserviceguy]

28. We're paying someone for doing a tough job

And paying them poorly, at that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. Lots of jobs

are tough.

[customerserviceguy]

31. Besides police, and perhaps firefighters

how many of those jobs do you have a significant risk of losing your life over?

If they made the DREAM Act apply only for those willing to serve in the military, we wouldn't even be having this fight.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. I have serious trouble with this notion that if you don't put your life in high risk,

your job is "less important".

Try to have a civilized society without teachers or truck drivers or constrution workers or doctors or lawyers or clerks. See how that works out.

(Oh, by the way, I can think of a few other jobs that involve considerable life risk, but that's not the main point.)

[customerserviceguy]

34. I didn't say that those jobs were less important

I just wanted to emphasize the difference between serving in the military and being a college student, which has been relatively safe since the early 1970's. I feel that difference is significant enough to question why the two things are considered equal by the current version of the DREAM Act.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. You don't need to literally "say" it.

It oozes.

[EstimatedProphet]

25. Because college is a way for people to make something of themselves

You know, the American Dream and all that - apparently something you are opposed to.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. I bet he loved the citizenship requirements in "Starship Troopers".

(As an aside, I thing the "bugs" weren't given the opportunity to tell their side of the story.)

[customerserviceguy]

29. So is starting a business

Or working under a fake ID.

I just don't equate giving to this country (by serving in the military) with taking from this country (by utilizing taxpayer resources in college) like you do.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. Riddle me this: WHY do college students in general "utilize taxpayer resources"?

[customerserviceguy]

35. Do you mean 'why' or 'how'?

As to why, it's because the education lobby makes sure that elected officials put degrees and the obtaining of same on a pedestal, no matter how useful or frivolous they are.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. Heh. The irony of you criticizing people for "putting X on a pedestal" is rich. -nt

[customerserviceguy]

37. You still haven't answered my question

Why is going to college the same thing in the eyes of the DREAM Act as serving in the military?

Perhaps you think that being a college student is more noble than being a servicemember. If that's the case, we really don't have anything more to talk about. But I'd be willing to bet that a majority of congresscritters feel just the opposite.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. That's a loaded question, it merits no answer, and here's why.

Only because some entity gives similar benefits to activity A and activity B doesn't mean anybody is saying activity A and activity B are "the same thing".

Your question is a straw man, an appeal to emotion, an appeal to authority and probably three or four more fallacies I missed.

There's your answer.

[customerserviceguy]

40. Ok, but do you disagree with my contention

that stripping the 'student' part out of the DREAM Act would make it more likely to be passed by the Congress as it is either currently exists, or as it will exist in January?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. I don't know. Do you think it's right to kick the person referred in post 8 out of the country? -nt

[customerserviceguy]

43. If you believe that borders are meaningless little creations

by humans who have fetishes about what citizenship means, then you won't understand my answer:

Yes, since she's had the benefit of a US education, let the country where she is a citizen of invest in her, and use her talents to better their people.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. Sigh. Where do I begin?

OK. First, people aren't "resources" to be used by countries and moved to and fro like purchased farm equipment.

Second, "If you believe that borders are meaningless little creations by humans who have fetishes about what citizenship means" is an extremely strawy straw man.

Third, I do understand your answer. Clearly.

Fourth... no, no fourth. I'd rather this post not be deleted.

[EstimatedProphet]

46. You're right

As it turns out, I am quite certain that borders are meaningless little creations by humans who have fetishes about what citizenship means, at least as things are practiced today - otherwise the idea of people giving up their lives to fight in a war for which the only purpose is to make the rich that have power over them more rich and therefore more powerful over them. And I don't understand your answer as it turns out, too, although I expect it is because it is bigoted gibberish.

[EstimatedProphet]

45. Are you really trying to say that having an educated populace isn't beneficial to the country?

Because that's what you just said.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. In my humble interpretation, I don't think he said that, but something even worse.

Having an educated person may be worth the investment, but if it's a dirty Mexican who was smuggled into the US at age two, even though the US did invest a lot in their education, they have to be kicked out, because they're not of the Body.

So says Landru.

[Occam Bandage]

16. No nation was ever destroyed by attracting too much talent. nt

[tuckessee]

19. Tell that to the Native Americans. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

20. I believe it is relatively easy to emigrate here if you have that level of skill.

Becoming a citizen will be a lengthy process after that but IIRC the DREAM Act doesn't bestow automatic citizenship either. It gives the people who fall under it legal status and a path to citizenship.

[Codeine]

12. It's infuriating to me that we tell people to excel and integrate

and then punish them when they do so. If a kid can come here speaking no English at age six and graduate as high school valedictorian a handful of years later then that's EXACTLY the kind of person we want to be an American! That's everything we purport to value and the sort of effort that needs to be lauded to the skies!

Burns me up. :mad:

[Raksha]

13. My neighbor is fanatically opposed to the Dream Act...

she gets all these RW teabagger scare e-mails and forwards them to me. I think she's been brainwashed...she was a lifelong Democrat but voted for Meg Ryan for governor just because she opposed the Dream Act. She was just ranting to me a few minutes ago that it isn't a matter of 1-2 million new citizens but 22 million, because these college students would be able to get amnesty and eventual citizenship for their entire families.

I mostly delete her e-mails on this subject because they are RW bullshit, but I have to admit I don't know too much about the Dream Act itself. Is there anywhere I can read a summary of it online?

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. No the college students can't get amnesty for their entire families

That's a myth being promoted by the right wingnut immigrant haters. Nothing of the sort is in the bill.

[zehnkatzen]

14. Actually, "We" aren't. "They", however, are.

And "they" have enough clout to pretty much get whatever they want despite the fact that what "they" want is neither just, nor sane, nor human, nor right.

"We" may own the car, but some cruel imbecile is driving. And they won't give us the wheel.

[Occam Bandage]

15. I dunno. Seems H1-Bs aren't terribly popular around here. nt

[Igel]

17. No.

The argument's overstuffed.

The US routinely extends visas to bright young men and women who want to become surgeons or engineers. The US makes it not all that difficult for them to obtain work and become citizens. The observation's been made that most illegal aliens opted to migrate to the US illegally because they'd be so far down on the list if they applied through regular channels that they'd never get in. The quotas are routinely filled--mostly by bright young men and women, or relatives of current residents.

It also seems to assume that the population of illegal immigrants that would be covered by this are all or mostly above average in intelligence, drive, and commitment to an education. Given the effects of being educated in an L2, of poverty, and of the frequent changes of schools that the illegal, and often transient, population has this seems very, very unlikely.

The argument that the act would only, ultimately, affect 1/11th of the illegal immigrant population, is also disengenuous, unless it also absolutely disallows family members of US citizens from having any special standing when applying for green cards or US citizenship.

In fact, if we disallowed immigration preferences based on US-resident family members without the DREAM Act it might allow more of those bright young men and women to immigrate by already established means, making those who actually think this article right very, very happy.

[LostHighway]

22. Definitely. Nativism is just racism with another term attached

They don't look at these kids as being potential doctors, they look at them as (insert anti-hispanic slur here). To them, that's all these kids are or ever will be. Anti-"illegal immigrant" sentiment is something where, if the people advocating it got their way, the point would be to communicate to all people of Latino descent that they're not welcome in the U.S. and are suspect, even if they're born here.

[lunatica]

24. The United States has never lacked for jingoism

[slackmaster]

26. Why should we favor them over people of ordinary intellect and potential?

Seriously, isn't that a form of discrimination?

[RegieRocker]

41. What happened to equality

We only take the highly intelligent, the beautiful and the wealthy? So very wrong in so many ways.