No country that treats people worse than animals is

[malaise]

entitled to peace.
All of Egypt's neighbors should STFU - Egyptian citizens also have rights. Kick out all the fucking dictators and RW zealots. Democracy and peace are not mere words.

[Kurovski]

1. K&R

Short, and to the point.

[Cleita]

2. But you know the USA and many other global powers

wouldn't allow that to happen. I'm afraid that the peace by force, or Pax Americana, that was outlined by the neo-con Project For a New American Century, is alive and well, both in conservative circles and our own DLC New Democrats. We like our dictators who keep the masses under control by whatever means while we look the other way so that our interests in the Middle East, the oil, the canal and other ventures stay under our control.

Sorry to be so cynical, but I don't see any rosy lining on this.

[malaise]

13. Of course you are correct

I decided to omit all names. We know them already.

[bobbolink]

3. The US can be included in that.

Animals are more important here in a number of cases.

[provis99]

4. I think you're right there.

I can't think of a case where you can be facing a fine or prison for feeding a stray pigeon, but if you feed a homeless person in some cities, you risk fines or jail.

[bobbolink]

5. That's one point. There are many others.

Thank you for getting it.

[Tsiyu]

7. Just a mental exercise. but...

Sometimes I imagine that if I posted a story about a neighbor who didn't clip her dog's toenails correctly - or who didn't provide the most cush little kitty bed for her resident feline - the thread would attract hundreds of recs and posts, many of which would be outraged calls for imprisonment and torture for the evil animal-abusing neighbor.

"What kind of sick person does not know how to correctly clip a dog's toenails I mean REALLY?!?! And she makes the cat sleep on a bare SOFA!!!!!! Oh the humanity!!!!!"

But if I posted about a homeless person getting beat up by cops, or about a US federal prison inmate being tortured, meh, maybe 5 or 6 posts before it would sink like a stone...

Slight exaggeration, perhaps, but it does seem (some) humans are worth less than animals in more than a few places.

[bobbolink]

8. Sadly, I don't think that is an exaggeration. :( There is something fundamentally wrong with the

empathy here... and it is a reflection of our society.

I have told the story about how after people in NOLA were shuffled all over the country and places were found for them.... the interest died down and then they were quietly turned out and left to their own devices. There were tremendous numbers of suicides, but it wasn't important.

Right at that time, I had taken a neighbor and his dog to the vet, and while waiting for them, I was looking at the HUGE bulletin board they put up. It was all about the local people who had gone down to NOLA and rescued animals, brought them back and "fostered" them, and prepared them for adoption. HUNDREDS!

Yet, there were people left homeless and bereft and many killing themselves because they were less important than the damned animals!

Yet if we talk about that, we get attacked.

Something is fundamentally wrong..... very, very wrong.... :cry: :grr:

[Tsiyu]

10. Yes, I agree...something is fundamentally wrong

How to change the attitude?

I have no idea, bobbie...


Jus keep chipping away at the ice around people's hearts is all we can do...


Stay warm out there...and remember, if you were a dog, people would care very deeply that you sleep in your car...:P

[Cid_B]

15. The difference..

... for me at least often lies in the fact that the human often did something to bring their misfortune upon themselves while the animal rarely did.

[bobbolink]

17. Ah, yes, the RW blame game. "You are unworthy....."

:puke:

[Bluebear]

18. Another anti-progressive gem straight from your keyboard. Surprise!

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. But do they _deserve_ the misfortune because of their choices?

[Cid_B]

20. You'll have to be a bit more specific...

.. but as a general rule I would say yes. One deserves what happens based on choices that person makes.

Is this up for debate? Maybe I missed something.

[maryf]

25. Maybe its a heart that you've missed?

so someone who is in an accident, or develops a disease, like MS or something, or loses their job because their business goes bankrupt after 30 years taking all pensions with them, or ... Oh, so many things, make the choice...things happen that are totally out of a person's control...I'm a teacher and because I switched schools as my husband had to move, I'm now at 19 years with only 9 years seniority at that school, a chance that I could lose my job at 54, hmmm, guess I shouldn't have become a teacher, bad choice...should have stayed a welder, oh, wait, that job moved to Mexico, should have moved to Mexico I guess...bad choice I made...

[MedicalAdmin]

33. Wow.

So here's my story and I must deserve it. You decide.

4 years ago I was driving from work when an unlicensed driver who worked as a driver for a major hotel blew through a stop sign in a company vehicle (yes - he was a company driver and he had NEVER had a license while working there for the past 2 years) and T Bones my car. I saw him coming at me through the intersection but didn't have time to do more than hit the brakes and swerve a bit.

I came to being taken out of the car on a back board with rude assholes honking their horns around me and yelling "get your fucking car off the road." It was a beautiful moment that confirmed to me the love that we all have for each other. I believe that Bobbie has mentioned this point once or twice, here and there.

I was partially paralysed but pretty lucky. Unfortunately the insurance companies decided that despite clear reports from the top docs in the area, MRI's and other objective test showing damage to my spine, etc... that they were only paying for a few months of PT.

I couldn't do my job anymore so I was let go. No one else will hire a someone who is crippled in this economy. So I have had no income for the past 4 years. Luckily my wife is the medical director of a clinic and there was a spot open for the admin of a satelite clinic (which I can do because I have software that types what I say (usually very well)) but at no pay. It was a position that they were going to leave unfilled and I decided to volunteer in order to help out and get more experience. FYI - my background is semi related to this position and I am way over qualified despite my physical limitations.

So here's my question for you. Do I deserve to wake up in screaming pain every morning and night? Did I deserve to lose the physical ability to work at my CHOSEN profession? What choice did I have, and what choice do many have? The majority of foreclosures are still being caused by medical bills heaped on those WITH insurance. There are people like Bobbie who only want things to get better, for us to pay attention and show a little heart. Is she wrong?

In many cases what you are attributing, in a way that is very like a right wing falacy (see Reagans mythical welfare mother for an example, is the responsibility to the wrong person. We don't blame victims of violent crime and we shouldn't blame the victims of business crime. Everyone who owns a house is losing money in the US because of fraud at the banks? Who is responsible for that? Homeowners?

Dude. Right bullet. Wrong target. Shoot somewhere else.

[Tsiyu]

21. I see

So everyone in America who is living in poverty "did something to bring their misfortune on themselves?"

One Third of homeless men are Veterans of our wars. Did they make themselves go fight in any of our unjust wars and witness the maimings and killings of their fellow soldiers and innocents? Did they make themselves have inadequate medical/mental help for PTSD, injuries and other problems associated with their service to our country?

A great percentage of homeless are disabled. Did they make their hips and backs and knees go out all on their own? Did they create a system where there is no health care for them either?

Another large percentage of the homeless are children. What in the hell did they do to create a nation where we have an 11% vacancy rate in real estate, but a nation that refuses to add any $$$$$ to build more affordable housing for low income people?

Did their parents create a nation where jobs were shipped overseas, where the minimum wage can barely support a living-at-home teenager much less a family?

Cid_B, I bet you never, ever made any mistakes in your life. Perfect, aren't you? You must feel so proud of yourself, sittin' in the catbird seat cuz you did it all right.

Too bad for the disabled, children and our veterans. If only they were as good as you, they might deserve a roof over their heads.

Individual American exceptionalism at it's finest, folks. We don't have to help anyone...just help yourself and a puppy now and then and you are good to go...


America! Fuck yeah!

[malaise]

22. Of course they did

:sarcasm:

Great post

[Cid_B]

26. Wow...

I am just always amazed at what gets people riled up.

I display a general garment and see who claims that I cut it just to their fit...

I made no superlative statements and some folks just have bad luck but I wonder what the ratio is between the homeless who are so physically disabled they cannot work in any way vs those who are there due to drug/alcohol abuse or some other rash of poor decisions.

Also, I am a veteran so take two more breaths before you type and your posts will come out much better and you will look less foolish.

[Tsiyu]

28. Your "general garment" is a clown suit n/t

[Cid_B]

29. So quit claiming it....

:eyes:

[Tsiyu]

30. You're wearing it; you sewed it

The rest of us know America has a poverty problem due to poor policy, corporate malfeasance and exploitation, and money being used to fund two wars and provide tax breaks for the uber wealthy.

Whatever nation you're living in - wearing that lovely clown suit you've fashioned - must be awesome. Nobody lives in poverty there unless they, themselves made poor choices.

Where is that now?

[Cid_B]

32. You may have missed it...

I live in America.

For me it is a mindset. You can cry about how the big bad world has made it impossible to be successful or at the very least reach a standard of living where one doesn't sleep under newspapers OR you can choose not to.

As long as there is someone to blame right? That seems to be the most important thing to you. As long as its not your fault....

[Tsiyu]

34. So you think America is just this Land of Opportunity

and anyone who works hard and keeps their nose to the grindstone is assured of adequate food, shelter, healthcare and decent retirement?

Sure ...tell that to all the unemployed whose jobs are GONE. Tell that to all the retirees whose life savings have been decimated by the Madoffs of this nation; tell that to the children living on the streets - if thet'd just go work 16 hours a day in the factories like they did in the Good Old Olden days, they might get a crust of bread and a tenement apartment crawling with roaches to live in real soon.

We live in two Americas.

And i have a very good life...but I still care about the least of these and how our attitudes and public policy make their lives pitiful in this wealthy nation...to me, that's part and parcel of being a good person and living a good life.

Others might think that blaming the victims of our crap employment, economic, housing, and health care policies makes them "Good Americans." I find their choices and their words despicable and ignorant.

[Starry Messenger]

23. I'll remember that next time there's another Katrina.

:eyes: Wonder what New Orleans' displaced people did to bring that on themselves.

[bobbolink]

24. According to the fundies, it was payback for the GAYS, donchaknow....

:puke:

[Cid_B]

27. Now that's just bait...

[Tsiyu]

31. No it isn't

Calvinism is what it is.

You buy it.

Nobody forces you to believe it.

[Starry Messenger]

36. +1000

[BrklynLiberal]

6. Ironically, Gandhi said "A nation can be judged by how it treats its animals."

[malaise]

35. Gandhi was a great man

:hi:

[flvegan]

9. No country that treats animals worse than people is

entitled to peace.

People are animals, yada yada yada.

[slackmaster]

11. It's illegal to keep primates as pets here in California without a permit from the Dept. of F&G

And that applies to humans, too.

[johnlucas]

12. Is Democracy necessarily good though?

malaise says:
Kick out all the fucking dictators and RW zealots. Democracy and peace are not mere words.

Americans tend to believe that everything done in their country is the best of all possible solutions, from the best of all possible worlds.
It's flawed myopic thinking to put it nicely.

•For one, the United States of America has NEVER really been united. It's loosely allied at best.
•Second, the United States operates under the illusion of a representative democracy. It's really just as plutocratic, oligarchic, fascist (corporatist) as any other country in history.
Its members just BELIEVE themselves to be free, it's not truth.
•Third, even the illusion, the political theater we see fails to get any of the important stuff done. Can't balance a simple budget, can't pass an effective useful law, can't foresee nor prepare for economic rainy days. Just a bunch of political gangs pointlessly going at it like Crips & Bloods. Some show.
•Fourth, the United States has homeless people within its own land. It's not even taking care of its own. If this system is so great, that shouldn't exist.
A good nation takes care of ALL of its citizens. A good chief makes sure ALL of the tribe eats.

How are you gonna advertise & promote a system which is only great to the ones with all the power & wealth?

When Americans say "Democracy!" like it's a good thing, we are REALLY saying "Be like us!" as if the U.S.A.'s the best it could be on Planet Earth.
But that ain't necessarily true. If what exists in the U.S.A. is the best that can be on Earth, then Earth is Doomed. There's always room for improvement. There's always a better way.

I'd say one thing's better in Egypt (Misr) than America...
...at least they have the guts to run off their corrupt leaders.
John Lucas

P.S.: Yes, I'm an American saying this.

[malaise]

14. Very thoughtful post

You won't see Tweety having a debate on this one.
:applause:

[johnlucas]

16. Thank you malaise

I say those things about the country I live in because I don't want us to fall into the trap that this is the best we can do.
It is NOT the best. The best system hasn't been devised yet.

When it is the best system it will account for & adjust for inevitable human corruption & not be derailed because of it.
It will eliminate & punish the corrupt ones discouraging more corruption. It will be self-improving by design.

We don't understand the totality of human nature & furthermore we don't admit the worst of it to ourselves.
We don't like to see ourselves as The Bad Guys & that's the problem with humanity altogether. Ego protects us but it also corrupts us.

The best system will not look at mental health as an institutional issue, it will see it as a societal failure issue.
It will study & then solve those problems freeing those victims from that hell. That in turn creates more people that can improve the system further.
Poverty is societal failure. Prisons are societal failure. Drug abuse is societal failure.

A good society is one that doesn't make exceptions when its individual members fall through the cracks.
It recognizes that if any of its members fall through the cracks, then that society is cracked. A chain ain't no stronger than its weakest link.
It values each member not sees them as lost causes. It has the knowledge to see the solution which shows that no cause is truly lost.
A good society doesn't just want ONE Michael Jordan on the basketball team, it wants a team FULL of Michael Jordans.
The Superstar is Common not Exceptional.

The United States of America is NOT the best society. The best society hasn't been formed yet.
John Lucas