"All revolutions are failures,

[denem]

but they are not all the same failure." George Orwell (Essay on Arthur Koestler)

You are blind like young kittens. What will happen without me?
The country will perish because you do not know how to recognize enemies. Иосиф Виссарионович Сталин

'They are rebuilding the city.' 'Yes, always'. William S. Burroughs (Naked Lunch)

It was a fine idea at the time, now it's a brilliant mistake. Elvis Costello.

A republic if ...

[aikoaiko]

1. technically, a revolution is 360 degree spin -- so yeah -- revolutions return you to the same start.

;)

[denem]

2. we came in? .... Isn't this where

Pink Floyd, The Wall

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. All non-revolutions are failures, too.

:think:

[denem]

4. as is lawn mowing,

and weeding - unless you've killed everything.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. One of my faves:

Иосиф Виссарионович Сталин

[denem]

7. Much better than vice-versa

His faves were not.

[Speck Tater]

6. Shoveling the walk while it's still snowing. nt

[Newest Reality]

8. Does that apply to revolutions of thinking and using the mind

as well?

I mean, what is to stop any of us from having our own, internal, mini-revolutions? That would also effect our values and behaviors and maybe even re-define our identities. Then, in a micro-managed sense, our actions could change and our choices and flexibility could increase. In that sense, freedom from the inculcated information of culture and its institutions, (as well as familial imprinting and modeling) could resolve and dissolve as we dissociate them and associate with new patterns.

On a grand-scale, that could add-up to quite a torrent of change ... especially when we were given the rhetoric that we are the change we want.

[denem]

10. Yeah. That IS the question.

What I would add in is the unconscious, 'They think I'm bringing freedom. I'm bringing them the nightmare' Sigmund Freud - on his way to America

and America is the most grandiose experiment the world has seen, but, I am afraid, it is not going to be a success

[strawberryfield]

9. Most revolutions are loose coalitions of the disenchanted

People unite for a time with a common objective of overthrowing the ruling class, but then go their different ways. There is a falling out of sorts, and when one faction gains the upper hand, the revolution turns on itself. It is like revolution 101.

[denem]

12. and usually end up with one raised hand - the Emperor.

[mudplanet]

11. What's the difference between a revolution and a civil war? I know

of a number of civil wars that have succeeded brilliantly.

American war for independence - We now get taxed unfairly but with representation
American Civil War - ended slavery (or at least started the process of ending legal slavery based upon race)
Civil war in El Salvador - We can now participate in the electoral process without fear of torture and assassination
Nicaragua 1980s - Transformed the country from a private estate/prison into a democracy, despite the best efforts of the United States government to keep it as a oligarchy
Iranian Revolution - Took out the trash.
French Revolution - Again, took out the trash (all aristocrats are good for is slaughter anyway)
Mexican Revolution - Separation of church and state, agrarian land reform (probably the least successful revolution of those cited)
English Civil War - They now get taxed unfairly but with representation

Define success and failure.

The cleverness is sometimes so thick you can't see the history.

[denem]

13. IMO it's after the Revolution has failed that the real work begins

The aftermath of most of the Revolutions you have listed were bloody disasters.

You scorch the earth. Set fire to the sky, and stoop so low, to reach so high'

Look at the civil war. Reconstruction was botched. Then came Plessy v. Ferguson.
One hundred and fifty years later that revolution isn't won.

[mudplanet]

15. What's the difference between skepticism and cynicism?

What were the options?

American war for independence - remain a colony of a country across the ocean with no legal rights
American Civil War - Work to end slavery "within the system, meanwhile millions of people continue to live in slavery and have their children born into slavery
Civil war in El Salvador - Continue to try to exercise our legal rights while being systematically tortured and murdered
Nicaragua 1980s - Continue to live as slaves or try to practice non-violent resistance against an enemy who doesn't regard you as human
Iranian Revolution - Continue to live under a dictator who was imposed by a foreign country while working within the system to establish a democratic country and witnessing your family and friends being arrested, tortured and murdered by the same dictator
French Revolution - Continue to live without any civil or legal rights under a god/king
Mexican Revolution - Ask the dozen families who own 98% of the arable land "could we please no be treated as slaves"
English Civil War - see French Revolution

[PDJane]

14. Orwell was responding, IIRC, to Robert Frost.........

Semi-Revolution
Robert Frost
A Semi-Revolution
I advocate a semi-revolution.
The trouble with a total revolution
(Ask any reputable Rosicrucian)
Is that it brings the same class up on top.
Executives of skillful execution
Will therefore plan to go halfway and stop.
Yes, revolutions are the only salves,
But they're the one thing that should be done by halves.