I've noticed something about people in our jails.

[Pacifist Patriot]

At least my county's detention center.

These are not "bad" people. Yes, even those whose poor choices have lead them to do some really bad things.

Most of the inmates I meet have simply failed to develop impulse control and are easily persuaded and do not possess either the ability to forecast consequences for their actions or the willingness to do so. This is something we cultivate in the context of a "safe holding environment." In other words, we mature best when surrounded by people who nurture and affirm us.

Which has pretty much helped me understand the mindset on Wall Street and among the far right a little bit more since I've long considered it to be akin to criminal behavior, though sometimes it outright is.

* Lack of impulse control (unmitigated greed) combined with failure to forecast consequences (the soundness of our economy be damned)

* Lack of impulse control (eagerness to be mislead by propaganda into a pack mentality) combined with the inability to forecast consequences (continuously voting against one's own self interests)

I'm not saying everyone on Wall Street or affiliated with the Tea Party comes from dysfunctional families, but I'm thinking it says volumes about a dysfunctional society. We suck as a "safe holding environment." I'm also not saying this is The answer or The explanation. It's just an insight I've been contemplating lately. These are definitely thoughts in process.

[dkf]

1. Except for wall street the consequence isn't theirs to bear as they got their share already.

Too high of a payout with a limited down side (losing your job) generates risky behavior.

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. I think ignoring consequences is an important aspect of the behavior on Wall Street.

Thinking through the consequences of your actions entails understanding how they affect not only yourself, but others and society at large....including future generations.

[dkf]

15. If Americans cared about future generations there would be manageable debt

It isnt only wall street that doesn't give a damn.

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. I'm definitely not arguing with you there.

[Recursion]

2. We really have to be careful of the "voting against their own interests" line

It's patronizing, and it misses the point. The problem with Kansas isn't that the people are voting against their own interests; the problem is that New Yorkers haven't even bothered to ask what Kansans think their interests are.

But, to your point. I used to tutor in a prison, and yeah, I met a lot of really great people with poor judgment and impulse control. I also met some absolute pieces of shit. (There's probably more of those in a prison than in a jail, though.)

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. I know the plural of anecdote isn't data, but....

I know far too many people who do indeed vote against their own best interests. As long as the candidate is for guns, against gays and waves a Bible, he's in. Doesn't matter if he wants to axe their benefits, wreck their schools and take away their privacy rights.

[Recursion]

34. OK, but read what you just said

I know far too many people who do indeed vote against their own best interests. As long as the candidate is for guns, against gays and waves a Bible, he's in. Doesn't matter if he wants to axe their benefits, wreck their schools and take away their privacy rights.

You and he have different ideas of what "his interests" are.

[kiva]

31. Agree with your opinion and want to add

that we need to remember people like the Kennedys and FDR and John Kerry and many others who "voted against their own interests". In addition to persuading working and middle class Americans to support Democrats we should also continue to push our party to stand for values that encourage wealthy Americans to put their country above their own personal gain.

[Pacifist Patriot]

32. I guess I define "own interests" perhaps a bit more broadly?

I'm not thinking in terms of personal gain. I'm referring to voters who support public policies with detrimental consequenses to not only broad spectrums of society, but future generations. There does seem to be a lot of cutting off the nose to spite the face going on.

[kiva]

40. I like your definition.

Usually I see "own interests" defined more narrowly, and usually focused on financial self-interests.

[supernova]

3. One of the things that highly frustrates me

as I move about in this world.

When I was a kid the exhortation from my parents was "Think before you act!" Think through something before you do it. Then you can anticipate the ways that a given circumstance will play out. Sometimes it's good outcome. Joy! More often than not, you are left trying to make the least bad choice. :P

But until I became an adult out in the working and dating world. I never realized how RARE that skill is. I used to think everyone could control themselves to the degree I was raised with. I run into people all the time who lack foresight.

[kctim]

4. Lack of impulse control

which allows one to falsely believe they know what is in everybody elses best interest.

[BanzaiBonnie]

12. Nice

I'm studying Nonviolent Communication and this whole thread speaks to the accuracy in Marshall Rosenberg's life work.

We all work out of meeting our needs. Needs can be met well, or needs can be met in ways that have a high cost.

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. Excellent work.

It was required reading at the Humanist Institute. One of my favorite books.

[kctim]

24. Problem is

we all have different views of what those 'needs' are, how those 'needs' can be "met well" and what is considered 'high cost.'

[BanzaiBonnie]

46. One of our basic needs is feeling safe

The high cost we speak of in Nonviolent Communication is not about money (AFAIK) It's about someone meeting their needs through drugs use, alchohol, use or abusive (power over) behavior. Those are all ways of meeting a need. Their is a high personal cost to both the individual and society in those behaviors.

I may not have been clear that I was speaking in terms of Nonviolent Communication. It's just that the application can move through any system of human interactions.

[kickysnana]

5. It appears in movies and TV that once you have a record...

you cannot get a legitimate job. Is that true?

How can you expect people not to commit crimes if that is the only way they are allowed to survive?

In the 1960's Minnesota's repeat offenders were only 20%. We had programs for rehabilitation. People came from around the world to see our programs By 2000 it was 80% a fact I learned attending my one and only NAACP meeting prior to the crowning of Bush as emperor. GOP Governors for 40 years except Jesse and I he was not into reform when he was governor.

[Pacifist Patriot]

7. It makes it very difficult, yes.

There are some employers who will give ex-cons a break, but it's an uphill battle.

Our jails and prisons are sadly not in the business of rehabilitation. Another systemic example of not examining the consequences of our actions.

[MedicalAdmin]

22. Rehab in MN has been cut systematically.

The prisons here used to have tons of vocational programs and the prisoners could move from paying their time to becoming productive members of society. And while they were in prison learning a marketable skill they were working and the money they "earned" went straight into victum restitution.

Those programs are being killed off one by one as the vocational ed teachers retire. They are NEVER replaced. And now Minnesota's prisons are a revolving door.

[Nikia]

23. Criminal background check is part of most hiring processes

People convicted of felonies at any time of their lives are prevented by law from getting some jobs without a pardon. Regardless, many employers would rather not hire someone with a criminal record. This is especially true for middle class type jobs.

[Kweli4Real]

29. In Law School ... many years ago ...

We were required to present a piece of "scholarly writing." The piece was to be "guided" by a faculty mentor.

I, in my liberal fashion, decided to write an argument for making ex-offender status a quasi-suspect class, thus making it unlawful to deny an ex-offender housing or employment without a compelling reason ... in other words, no more blanket "no ex-offender" policies. Of course, employers would be able to refuse to hire a convicted pedophile for work in a daycare center, or an embezzler for work as a bookkeeper; but there is no legitimate reason for denying someone with a drug possession conviction from holding a job as a accountant or even a teacher.

The crux of the argument was based in equity -- blanket "no ex-offender" policies have the effect of punishing the offender for life for a crime they have already paid their debt to society. My secondary argument was public policy based -- Do we really want to place people in the position of having to continue criminal activity in order to survive because living wage jobs are being denied?

My mentor asked me the following questions:

"Do you plan on becoming a judge?"
"Do you plan on running for any political office?"
"Do you plan on holding any high level governmental position?"

I was fine with the first two questions, as I knew I had no interest in either; but, as a Public Administration Undergrad with an interest, and working in the Public Policy arena, I had to balk.

I ended up writing on a "far less controversial" subject ... The effects of Affirmative Marketing Strategies (in Fair Housing) on the Voter's Rights Act.

[Hannah Bell]

33. Felon or sex offender, that's pretty much true.

[Bigmack]

8. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome... explains a lot.....

of the lack of impulse control.

Not an all-purpose explanation, but certainly a factor.

And it's not all poor folk, either. Expensive Merlot can screw up little yuppie-larva, too, so those amoral fucks on Wall Street may come by their behavior from mommy.

[Dogmudgeon]

14. Good point

Study after study affirms that harsh conditions during gestation and infancy cause big increases in the incidence of mental illness and criminal behavior. There's also an impressive but little-known body of work demonstrating that the crime wave of the 1980s came 15-25 years after peak use and subsequent phase-out (1973) of tetraethyl lead in gasoline.

Of course, we deal with crime by holding the criminal accountable, and appeals to early childhood damage are, these days, cause for ridicule and outrage. But improvements in health care during pregnancy and infancy would go a long way toward reducing crime.

--d!

[unblock]

10. except that the part of wall street that is unhealthy is quite methodical and planned

there's a lot of strategy and also a careful effort to stay on the right side of the law (albeit with the occassional change of law if need be).

it's not impulsive at all. they're trying to make the most money while still playing by the rules.
just like football players try to score the most points while playing by the rules.

it's up to the referees and regulators to set and enforce the rules so that the game yields good results for all rather than just mayhem or biggest guy wins.

THAT's the problem.

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. These are thoughts in progress and no analogy is perfect.

You make some good points.

[LiberalLoner]

13. Great wisdom in your post. We DO suck as a safe holding environment. n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. I think that may be a fundamental difference between....

conservatives and liberals (ooo, I'm not comfortable with those terms in this instance, but they're the best I've got)

I think it likely Liberals are more likely to recognize the value of a safe holding environment and treat it as a social responsibility.

[old mark]

19. I disagree in part - there are truly some evil shits in our prisons, but our prisons

are terrible places and offer nothing to help anyone other than education by more experienced criminals.
I worked in a county prison as part of my college program in social work, and I am glad that some of the people I met there were incarcerated and not walking around loose, but there is absolutely nothing positive or redeeming about US prisons.

We neglect our kids and families and provide few opportunities or help, but plenty of punishment and terror, much of it for profit.

mark

[Nikia]

25. Most of our local jail population qualifies for work/community service release

Most people in jail (as opposed to prision) around here are non violent offenders or became violent when under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

[old mark]

41. Where I was working , we had rapists, kidnappers and many others who

should have not been out. I agree with you about non-violent offenders - they do better in treatment programs, but we choose not to fund those in favor of punnishment...


mark

[obxhead]

20. Problem

The consequences side of the equation does not exist. Sure a few of the really bad apples have gotten sent to club fed, but for the most part these people break the law, acquire millions in stolen loot, then walk away free and clear.

Until we change that I will never expect them to play fair. If there is no punishment for a crime there is essentially no crime.

[Pacifist Patriot]

26. I'm not really talking about personal consequences in terms of weighing the risk...

of being caught and prosecuted. I'm talking about a much broader range of potential consequences for our actions. Systemic, social, inter-generational, ethical, etc.

[obxhead]

37. I apologize.

I see that after reading the post again. That's the problem with doing quick drive by posting.

They don't care about the consequences to society. They'll have theirs sitting on the beach having drinks while the world around them crumbles.

[Pacifist Patriot]

42. Which I've never really understood with those who have children.

Parenthood definitely made me look at the future with a far more critical eye.

[MedicalAdmin]

21. Check out the work of Dr. Ruby Payne.

She did some foundational research on poverty which lead her to explore the hidden rules and assumptions underlying the American class structure. When I read her first book the one thing that stuck with me ever since was that the difference between the generationally poor (especially those who are also generationally in jail - i.e. in this case the career criminals and not just poor people - I want to be clear on that distinction) and the generationally rich is almost non existant.

That's right, criminals and the rich have the same paradigms.

Here's a excerpt from one of her workbooks regarding the workplace's hidden rules and assumptions. http://preview.ahaprocess.com/store/more/excerpts/book_HiddenRulesofClassatWork.pdf

[Pacifist Patriot]

27. Thanks! I will definitely check that out.

[MedicalAdmin]

30. You're welcome. I look forward to hearing what you think.

PM me if it is not too much trouble.

[rucky]

36. "Hidden Rules of Poverty" was mandatory reading for my teacher training.

:thumbsup:

[Xenotime]

28. Thank you for pointing out that those who are suffering...

have very few to speak for them. It saddens me that people just write other human beings off so they can 'sleep better' at night.

[pitohui]

35. people with poor impulse control ARE bad people

who is a bad person if the fuckwit who sticks a gun in face to steal a few dollars to buy crack is not a bad person?

people w. poor impulse control ARE the bad people we need to be protected against, look, i know lots of addicts and there's a big bright line between the functional addicts/alcoholics and the guys who end up in jail "for impulse control" also known as robbing and jacking people over and over and over and over again

even the ones who seem like nice guys when they're not robbing you, at the end of the day, i had to distance myself from these people, yyes, i've known a few armed robbers who "reformed," their idea of reform was to stop sticking guns into bank clerk's faces and start ripping off their friends & family members, i simply couldn't afford to continue these friendships

everybody in america came from a dysfunctional family, sheesh, we are a nation of immigrants, convicts, religious kooks etc who couldn't get along wherever we started from...and yet some people manage to behave decently anyway

i have no respect for and make no excuse for wall street thieves but the person who shot at me wasn't from wall street, the gangbangers who home invaded/raped my older relative were not from wall street, i'm sorry for their poor impulse control but they still suck as human beings and the planet would have been better had they never been born

at the end of the day i can despise and hate all criminal predators and wish to see all of them removed from polite society, it isn't either/or

[BeFree]

38. Feller' told me

...there are two kinds of people.

Those that have been caught. And those that ain't.

What one must ask one's self: Are you experienced?

[Pacifist Patriot]

43. That's a pretty cynical view of humanity.

[cali]

39. Unmitigated greed does not equal poor impulse control

I think you have this all wrong.

[Pacifist Patriot]

44. okay

[Bragi]

45. America's prison system is a disgrace

I wish Michael Moore would tackle this topic in a documentary.

[Pacifist Patriot]

47. Good idea!

Wonder if he'd respond to a plea campaign for such a project. I know a number of prison reform groups who would love to bombard him with the request.

[Bragi]

48. Go for it!

I've been thinking about how useful it would be for Michael Moore to do a documentary on America's prisons for some time now.

What with America leading the western world in the number of people locked up, and the harshness and dysfunctionality of the American prison system being what it is, and given the amount of corporate profits now being made from this inhumane horror show, I think it's a project he should consider.

If you can think of ways to get him to think about this, and/or know groups who could raise the subject credibly with him, then I'd say go for it.