Question: why is Europe more favorable to socialism than the USA ?

[steve2470]

It boggles my mind that socialism has been so demonized here. Thank you for your time.

[villager]

1. Their countries weren't founded by deranged Puritans?

:shrug:

[madmax]

3. LOL that explains a lot. nt

[cliffordu]

18. +10000

[keith the dem]

32. Read 'The Wordy Shipmates' by Sarah Vowell

before you disparage Puritans. Massachusetts isn't one of the most liberal states, and the UCC isn't one of the most liberal churches for no reason. (Part of The United Church of Christ is descended from the Puritans)

The Puritans were very into books and knowledge, unfortunately before the age of science and reason, most books and knowledge were crap.

The play the Crucible wasn't as much about the Puritans as it was about the 1950's REPUBLICANS and the McCarthy hearings.

[villager]

46. and yet, The Crucible was also taken from our history

Art can be about more than one thing at a time...

[ieoeja]

49. Also, the Puritans represented what percentage of those founding this country? 0.01% maybe?

It isn't like a substantial percentage of Americans are descended from those who came over on the Mayflower.

[keith the dem]

53. But the direct decedent of the Puritan church...

was at the front of the abolitionist movement (remember the Amistad)

Founded Yale and Harvard

First major church to ordain homosexuals

First major church to have gay marriages.

Don't put the backward, repressive ugliness of our country at the hands of the puritans. It more likely is descended from the south and the darkness of the slave economy. Something those puritans were fighting against early in our countries history.

[One_Life_To_Give]

57. Some only remember thee early and pre-Calvanist periods

I think todays progressive UCC values are the product of a long history. That includes dark events such as the Salem witch trials. Restricted voting to Church members, deportation for failure to honor church officials etc. Founding of Yale and Harvard were also self serving, in that the church needed source of educated Pastors to lead the Parishes. While simultaneously encouraging all parishioners to seek knowledge themselves.

So our forebearers were responsible for some ugliness in the past. Although you are correct that the modern day decendents bear little resemblance. And can typically be found amongst the most liberal christians in NewEngland.

[One_Life_To_Give]

54. Actually Dominated NewEngland

The occupants of the Mayflower were Pilgrims.

Across NewEngland you will find their old Town Meeting Halls dating from when it was illegal not to have one and also illegal to call it a church.

[peace frog]

42. Puritanism is the haunting fear that

someone somewhere might be happy. Teabaggers, the most recent Puritan incarnation, are making damn sure that ain't gonna happen in these here United States.

[madmax]

2. Good question - I'd like to read some DU thoughts

on that one. :)

[givemebackmycountry]

4. No right wing media...

pounding the message home relentlessly for thirty freaking years?

Just a guess.

[leftstreet]

5. Americans are very favorable to socialism

How many people have you seen set themselves on fire rather than draw Social Security?

:shrug:

[steve2470]

7. good point nt

[Kennah]

6. They've Had Their Fascism, And Learned From It

[supernova]

8. My theory - both WWs

Both WW I and II happened in Europe, on their soil, in their homes. That's a trauma that can last generations.

I think they realized what exactly they were doing to each other in the name of what? Nationalism is certainly in there. Ideology and Theology are represented too. At some point in the aftermath, you begin to realize you aren't winning any points, just inflicting mindless pain on people very much the same as you.

What happened to Europe is empathy on a social level that we just don't experience here. We could, but we don't.

[ieoeja]

40. They lost jobs to the new world, flirted with extremes from both sides, then found middle ground.

We are pretty much where they were in the era just before the two World Wars, i.e. losing jobs to cheaper labor elsewhere (at the onset of the World Wars we were the cheap labor to whom they were losing their jobs). I keep pointing that out to people and asking, "wouldn't it be nice if we just learned from their mistakes, or are we going to have to repeat them?"

[JustAnotherGen]

43. Amen

My fiance's (he's an italian living in America) father lived through World War II in Southern Italy. . . as a little kid. Santo is an old and kind man - who can to this day tell you precisely the terrors of living through Fascism - and what it brings.

[Uzybone]

44. spot on

[The_Commonist]

9. I think it may be because...

European countries that have the most socialist policies in place, are more homogeneous societies.
The U.S. is such a hodge-podge of ethnicities and cultures, that some people just don't want "those other people" to be happy, safe and well-fed. It's one of the curses of a large, heterogeneous society.

Europe also has a long history of bloodshed. Maybe they've evolved more socially, whereas we are still in our teenage years as a society?

[Dappleganger]

10. I think it's their innate distrust of the religious/government entity.

There is such a long and deep history of abuses by the government which was for thousands of years the arm of the Church, that it seems like they were more open-minded to the equality aspects of socialism. Real socialism is rooted in the power of the middle class to create and maintain a fair balance within society, something which had been missing for so long because of the Church's rule via the government (and monarchies, etc.). The deep-rooted distrust of anyone associated with nobility would definitely contribute to most European societies who were victims of their rule to openly embrace a socialism more readily.

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. Maybe because they have a longer history of being abused by

those in power.

[Cleita]

12. They went through two awful wars, deprivation and

starvation in the last century to get to where they are today. We never really went through that yet. In the past if you were being squeezed by big business you hitched up your wagon and moved West for better opportunities. Well, we reached the ocean now and there is no more West to gain. We probably are going to go through some terrible deprivations as well unless we can gain control of our government to push socialistic programs in the commons that benefit the ordinary American and make big business smaller. We need to bring back a lot of laws rescinded from the Reagan administration on to the present that kept business in line.

[Kceres]

13. My 13-y-o son came home from school upset yesterday about his history class.

His teacher spent the first half of the class teaching the evils of socialism. She then asked the students to write down their feelings about socialism then throw their papers to the front of the room. Every student that said something negative about socialism got a treat. She didn't read my son's out loud which, of course, pointed out our tax-payer school system, libraries, police and fire departments, etc. Apparently no critical thinking allowed in her classroom.

[Cleita]

16. You need to talk to his teacher and tell her that

children are not dogs to be conditioned with Pavlovian techniques. America isn't Soviet Russia and what she is doing is strictly from the Soviet playbook on how to brainwash a nation. I might be inclined to change schools too if that was my child.

[Kceres]

23. Luckily parent-teacher conferences are tomorrow night.

I hadn't plan on going, as my son is doing well in school, but I think I will now.

[truebrit71]

39. Please let us know how that went..they are supposed to educate not indoctrinate...

...

[Kceres]

61. I've been exchanging e-mails with the teacher during the last hour.

We've been going back and forth. My son was wrong about the candy. She gave it out to the team that could name the four countries closest to Russia. As to the one-sided discussion on socialism, she said she was trying to explain the differences between communism and socialism. She said she tries to remain objective. However, the school, a charter, does have a reputation for its conservatism. There are many lefty families enrolled as well, though. We stick together because of shit like this.

[Art_from_Ark]

79. "The four countries closest to Russia"?

What does that mean? :shrug:

[Proud Liberal Dem]

47. Interesting isn't it

that right-wingers are the ones always accusing liberals of "indoctrination"? Of course, that's just classical right-wing projection.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

50. I would go with evolution

European countries are simply older and have "evolved" over time. The USA, by contrast, as a country, has only existed, what, 234 years? Maybe we'll eventually get to where they are. One hopes that we don't have to go some of the things that they had to go through.

[BOG PERSON]

77. uh, the USA is many times older than most European governments

234 years, while young for a nation, is fucking ancient for a state.

[JuniperLea]

41. I'd raise a serious stink over that action!

I'd have an apology immediately, and a promise to never meddle~! What a freak!

[Davis_X_Machina]

14. European states had less diverse and fissiparous populations...

...especially while their political institutions were formed.

There's a direct link between popular support for social provision, and the degree of homogeneity in a country.

The more diverse the population, the weaker the support for social provision, and particularly those involving transfer payments. That's the heart of social-democratic practice.

[reggie the dog]

65. 80 out of every 100 people in France are not ethnically "french"

lots of spanish, german, belgium, engish, tunisian, algerian, moroccan, italian etc.....

[Matariki]

15. Because they had the good sense to kick the Calvinists out?

The Calvinists and all the other goofy religions that believe the being rich is proof of God's favor and being poor is proof of God's displeasure and wrath.

[white_wolf]

60. Which never made sense to me.

Let's see I am a Calvinist and I buy into that and I'm living in Geneva with John C. My question is what about the Pope? He's richer than all of us so surely God must love him if we are going buy Calvinism.

[moondust]

17. Tribes tend to stick together.

Especially when coming under attack repeatedly by neighboring tribes and marauding hordes.

[TahitiNut]

19. The "ordinary" citizen in Europe is FAR more politically literate than an Amurikan.

After traveling (at various times in my life) in France, England, Scotland, Switzerland, Germany, Belgium, and the Netherlands, I have ALWAYS been impressed at the astonishing social and political literacy of the Europeans with whom I've come in contact, both socially and on the job. It'd be laughable to even contemplate (for example) a European claiming that Fascism was a "left wing" ideology or that Stalinism had ANY resemblance to socialism, let alone democratic socialism. I was always blown away that a Frenchman or German or Englishman would be familiar with our elected officials, even at the state level!

Unlike the US, where it's long been considered somewhat 'impolite' to discuss politics, sex, or religion, such topics are of the foremost interest (in the aforesaid order) in cafes and around dinner tables where I've traveled. It's with no small degree of envy that I've seen this over the years.

[TayTay]

20. Because we have different national experiences

and are very different peoples in terms of national myths, culture and politics. America is a multi-seeded nation and was founded as much by Southern planatations owners as by "deranged Puritans" as another poster in this thread put it. We have conflicting national mythologies, as befits such a varied background.

One of the extremely powerful myths of America deals with the primacy of the individual. This is written into our founding documents, both North and South and later in all the Western expansion here. We ignore this at our peril. Pretending that it doesn't exist is willful ignorance. (Isn't that something we deplore when Tea Partiers use it?)

The American sacred belief in the primacy of the individual can and often is exploited for political gain. The aim of many corporate political planners is convince people that their freedom is inextricably bound up in their individuality and that to compromise that with "socialist" sentiments is an attack on their individual, sole, rights as citizens.

This belief is in constant conflict with the other founding myths of America. (Some of these are even from the "deranged Puritans" though they are rarely given credit for them.) "We shall be as a city upon a hill," has many meanings and one of them is to come together in communal or even pre-democratic forum to decide our destiny together.

"e pluribus unum" Out of many, one. This represents the tectonic plates that undermine America and these sentiments are in constant conflict and in danger of eruption. (I also believe the reverse is a true anthem for American, "out of one, many" but i would have a hard time marketing that.

[apnu]

21. One word: Education.

Europeans are more educated than Americans, it seems, and they understand the concept of socialism. From there they can decide for themselves if they approve or disprove of socialism. Here in America, we're told socialism is bad without and understanding or knowledge of the definition of the word.

We can thank Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, Bill O'Riely, and Glenn Beck for that.

[WilliamPitt]

22. They've been around longer

and get better educations.

[Xenotime]

24. They have ways to shut off the noise from the other side. in america...

'everybody' has a voice even if it is wrong.

[Uncle Joe]

25. Because we have corporate supremacy; and this has never been defeated in a war.

As a result most everything about us is narrow in vision, short term, commercial and profit centric, this is praised by the conflict of interest ridden, corporate media as "innovation" but in fact it leads to rigidity in our thinking and if not checked will eventually beget our downfall.

A century+ of conditioning and propaganda makes for a large obstacle to overcome.

Thanks for the thread, steve.

[steve2470]

26. you're very welcome, the Wisconsin situation finally got me to ask this nt

[Uncle Joe]

28. It's a good question.

Peace to you.:hi:

[steve2470]

30. peace to you also !

:hi:

[suffragette]

55. Nicely stated Uncle Joe

Agree completely.

[Uncle Joe]

56. Thanks, suffragette.

Peace to you.:hi:

[suffragette]

63. Peace to you as well

:hi:

[reformist2]

27. They don't have a religious right that can be tricked into voting against their interests

[dmosh42]

29. We are just dumb as a population! Led by crooks and gangsters. n/t

[Rex]

31. Because.

[NNN0LHI]

33. Because they are smart enough to join and support Unions

[keith the dem]

34. Because of our mix of race and different ethnicities

and our prejudice, We don't like if the other is doing better than us. Divide and conquer, this is harder in european countries that essentially are the same ethnicity.

Sadly, Doing something for the common good is easier if everyone looks the same.

American financier Jay Gould. After hiring strikebreakers, said "I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half."

[pansypoo53219]

35. zombie mccarthy.

we need to kill him too.

[speltwon]

36. A number of reasons

1) the US values the individual over the collective more than most European countries. This is good in some ways, and bad in other ways. But it simply IS. We for example don't criminalize hate speech, favoring individual rights over the "civility" argument such as the ones used in Canadian parliament when such laws were passed. One could see RKBA in the same light.

2) the frontier culture (which reinforces 1) . Europe hasn't had frontiers for a very long time. Our frontiers are much more recent. The "staunch individualist" out on his/her own , self-sufficiency etc. are more valued concepts here.

3) distrust of almost anything that Europe does. Since we broke away from the continent and struck out on our own. This is pretty kneejerk. The idea that IF Europe does it, we shouldn't. I note that some people have a reverse position, that anyway Europe does something is kneejerk response "better". Both are examples of putting ideology before experience.

4) Less homogenous culture. We have always been "the melting pot" and that works for us and against us.

And of course, I assume by socialism you are referring to Social Democracy a la France, etc. and not socialism a la the USSR. I think France's medical system is much better than ours, but given the above, it's a hard sell.

[steve2470]

37. yes, France and Germany leap to mind immediately

Thanks for your time !

[truebrit71]

38. Because they have very recently seen the face of fascism up-close-and-personal...

...and it wasn't very pretty..

[demosincebirth]

45. There was a darn good socialist movement going on before WW1

then the war came and it fizzled out. Jack London (author) was a big part of it.

[Johonny]

48. isn't it just easier to organize there

If Wisconsin was a country it would basically be seeing a national strike. But it's just one part of our whole country. Thus since labor tend to be divided state by state it would be much harder to collectively rally the whole country to support regional disputes. Europe being non-united, each country has to fight labor one on one. I think regionally it is just easier to organize people. Now why do whole regions of the US reject unions? IDK.

[vaberella]

51. I saw a program on this in England. I know why.

If I remember properly and this was done years ago. It started post WWII in response to the devastation that was brought on by Germany's blitzkrieg. France responded in a similar fashion and so did most of Europe. Due to the devastation. The government created a strong social program in order to protect the people and the society should something like this happen again. ie to accommodate any sort of disaster that hurts the people socially and economically. Of course many of the rich and the well to-do weren't really in accord but it became very popular in the nation over time. It sort of like "Give to the Government and the Government will protect you." It actually expanded the role of government and made government stronger because it new that the people in effect depended on it. And because it was effective the people continue to give to it to this day. If you were to remove the NHS in England---you'd probably be put in the dungeons of London Tower.

In effect it was a response to the destitution of the society post WWII and became an important part of the culture.

[One_Life_To_Give]

52. Individualism

Buffalo Bill, Davey Crocket, Danial Boon, Jeremiah Johnson, etc. So many of our cultural folk hero's are "Rugged Individuals". We idolized the Fronteirsman. Combined with many of our cities and towns being fairly new. Having only hired their first police officer within the last 50 years. Neighbors until recently being more than a shout away for large segements of the population. And you have a culture of people who are accustomed and desirous of having to do things by and for themselves.

Can you imagine the Lone Ranger hiring a Posse?

[BOG PERSON]

68. not like those europeans

their folk heroes were, generally, wards of state who could barely dress themselves, iirc

[steve2470]

69. "wards of state who could barely dress themselves"

Elaborate on this statement, please. I'm sure the European DU'ers here would be interested as well. Thanks.

[BOG PERSON]

74. you know what i mean!

i'm talking about folk heroes whose stories are used to teach children moral lessons. like tintin, asterix, and so on.

[steve2470]

78. nvm nt

[creon]

58. Good question

Great replies.

Well done, everyone!!

[Marr]

59. During the Cold War, western Europe-- and the US as well, were

run with an eye to advertising our way of life to other other nations... to encourage their joining our sphere of influence instead of the Soviets'. It's no coincidence that the real, coordinated assault on social programs in the west coincided with the decline of the USSR. No further need to advertise.

As for the word itself... Americans aren't actually against socialist policies. They tend to support them, in fact. But the word has been demonized by decades of propaganda.

[Starry Messenger]

62. They were closer to the epicenter of the Russian Revolution.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.

America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde

[SoCalDem]

66. They have "started over" many times, and have been subjected to all kinds of rule

They have experience in this governmental-stuff. WWII pretty much wiped the slate clean for many countries, so they were able to choose what they would keep and what they would let go of.

Europe also had millions of people who were "gone" after the war, and the ones who remained, wanted stability and comfort. The memories of what "not sharing" can bring, may have awakened a fervor to share more equally, and to pick leader who agreed.

[BOG PERSON]

67. no feudal past in the USA + homestead mentality

[Darth_Kitten]

70. Maybe countries torn apart by war over and over again?

:shrug:

[Ohio Joe]

71. The right wing has associated it with evil

Many people do not even understand what it is, if you describe a program without using the word they would be all for it.

[DeSwiss]

72. Smarter. n/t

[ReggieVeggie]

73. maturity

[BOG PERSON]

75. "one of the responsibilities [being an American] entails

is fighting against a superstitious valuation of Europe" - Henry James

[mentalsolstice]

76. My theory is because Euro countries are smaller geographically.

I think because of the size of our country and population densities, we're too bloated to take on socialist ideals. I would love it if we had a more socialist mindset. However we have large land mass, and the conservatives tend to live in more rural areas, while the liberals tend toward urban areas.