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The very rich in America: “The kind of money you cannot comprehend”

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 05:23 AM
Original message
The very rich in America: “The kind of money you cannot comprehend”
The accumulation is brazen. What once would have been considered a somewhat discreditable fact of social life, the proliferation of billionaires, is now hailed as a sign of America’s success. The demise of the Soviet Union and the supposed absence of any alternative to capitalism, the putrefaction of the AFL-CIO trade unions, the ignominious collapse of American liberalism and the lack to this point of broad-based, organized political opposition to the ruling elite and its two parties have rendered the American financial aristocracy “dizzy with success.” These people have lost their heads.

In the face of public outrage over oil company profits and soaring gasoline prices, Exxon arrogantly defended (CEO) Raymond’s hundreds of millions, arguing that they were rewarding the executive’s “outstanding leadership of the business, continued strengthening of our worldwide competitive position, and continuing progress toward achieving long-range strategic goals...”

In a study published in October 2005, three accounting professors reported that negative, even occasionally scathing press coverage, “does not substantively change corporate behaviour with regard to pay packages.” The American establishment is all but impervious to the sentiments of the broad masses of the population. In response to a recent report detailing the immense and growing social gap, a spokesman for New York state’s Business Council told a reporter that the incomes earned by his state’s rich were “something that everybody who cares about New York should be pleased about.”

An insulated world of immense wealth exists as never before, at least in modern US history. The number of Americans with assets of $1 million or more reached 7.5 million in 2004, according to a survey conducted by the Spectrem Group. Beyond that, however, are those who possess “Ultra High Net Worth” (a mellifluous term invented by Merrill Lynch circa 2001): individuals in households with $5 million or more in net worth. In a country of 300 million people, the "Ultra High Net Worth" form a very small percentage of the population, but a not insignificant number in absolute terms. Economic, political and cultural life in America is to an enormous extent organized for their benefit.

http://www.theprogressivemind.info/?p=21647

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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why do We The People allow these greedy scum to control us
so completely?
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm not against people making money and enjoying it
but I can't understand why anyone in this world needs such a huge amount ... seriously I think it's some kind of sickness with them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:36 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 05:58 AM
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wouldn't you love to see a list of how these people acheived
"Ultra High Net Worth"? Derivatives? Inheritance? Ungodly bonuses? How?
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Mostly inheritance from some illegal or marginally legal activity several generations ago,
very few actually "achieve" anything...


mark
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. I became aware of 'trust fund babies' when I lived in TX. I know
you're right about some of them. They're non-achievers for sure.

I just read this here on DU and it answers my question too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x5426
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's not the people with 5 million in assets that trouble me
it's the people with hundreds of millions or billions.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yep. There is where the siphon is.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. exactly - estates of $1M-$5M are not out-of-reach of many considering the
economy of the past 25 years - to include wall street and real estate
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. One millions dollars ain't what it used to be
If the value of my house plus my 401(k) and other savings adds up to a million dollars by time I retire, I should be able to live comfortably, but I'll be far, far from living in the lap of some kind of unimaginable luxury.

The way the stock market has gone the last ten years, and with interest rates as low as they are, I have to imagine that things could still be like that 17 years from now when I'd like to retire at age 65. If I have $500,000 in cash assets, and hope to live 20 more years, I can't count on that being worth more than $25,000 per year. I don't see much hope in interest offsetting eating up the principle very much.

I might have to sell my house and move into a smaller place, or turn my house into a rental property and move into a smaller place. Working as a landlord isn't exactly what I'd call retirement, so I'd probably turn that sort of deal over to a property management company and get a smaller cut of the rental revenue.

How much help I can count on from Social Security, and if I can even collect it without waiting until I'm 70, who knows?

At any rate, "assets of one million dollars" does not equate to great wealth, mansions, butlers and maids and groundskeepers, luxury cars, traveling the world first class, etc. It's enough at retirement, as long as Social Security remains, to maintain a middle class life style and little more, with things getting dicier if you "live too long" or get hit with big medical bills.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. The unions never were any threat to the very rich - they just can not stand
for anyone else to have anything, especially even a small amount of power and self determination. It is about power as much as it is about money, maybe even more, for the very rich...they want it all, and they want you and I to have none.
Many of them seem to believe they are somehow better people and should command us all because of their wealth.


mark
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
10. at least one of the people mentioned in the article,
Omar Kordestani gained much of his increase in net worth via exercising stock options. As someone who has also been granted stock options over the years, I can tell you that sometimes you have to exercise them for a bunch of reasons. (and for Mr. Kordestani the process is a long and convoluted one with a lot of arcane rules on how to and when to and being committed once you announce, regardless of the ups and downs of the stock price)

the first and foremost is that these options all have expiration dates.

ask yourself this question:

if you had a bunch of options (lets scale it back a little bit to a net value of $10K) that were going to expire next week. would you allow them to just expire and you lose that $10K? of course not. that is part of your job compensation.

the second one (and this applies to a buy and hold exercise vs the buy to sell) you see that the stock is at a low point vs the current value, so, making an educated gamble, you jump and buy and then hold the stock until the value gets to a certain point and/or the stock proceeds, if sold, aren't taxed as regular income (see the above example) but rather as a long term capital gain (significantly lower tax rate).

the one thing that the article doesn't address is how long and at what strike price the options were granted. If, as I suspect, that his options were granted sometime close to the IPO ($85/share) and he held them while his efforts as a sales leader helped google grow in value from $85 to in the $400 range (according to what i can find is the lowest $$ amount he sales), shouldn't he (like many others a google, including individual contributors) enjoy the fruits of his labor?

Another thing that the article doesn't address are the taxes Mr. Kordestani paid on these transactions. If he bought to sell, the proceeds were taxed as if it were regular pay, IOW, taxed at the top tax rate (35% federal and whatever the top rate is in his state probably either NY or CA which have top rates of 7.8% and 10.3% respectively plus any applicable local taxes, if NYC throw another 3.65% on top of that).

That is a crap load of taxes (assuming the $288 million as "regular" income, this netted the feds somewhere around $100 million, the state he lives in between $22.5 million and $28 million + any local taxes). losing that tax revenue would would certainly hurt.

Take the NYS tax, that works out to the median salary of 518 teachers, a similar amount of police officers or sanitation workers.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes, let's all cheer him for all those teachers he keeps employed.
Edited on Tue Dec-14-10 06:21 AM by Hannah Bell
gag me.

if one person had all the money you could say the same. "it's our god-man who pays our wages! all hail the god-man!"

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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Good Post
Thoughtful
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. wow, could you have missed the point any more?
however he got all his money, it is unquestionably part of the unfair distribution of income in this country.

to rationalize this as being about how stock options work is colossally wrong.

if our country can't fund education without having a super wealthy class we are in trouble.

as long as people justify it we will stay in trouble.

get your head right.
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. riddle me this batman
Edited on Tue Dec-14-10 08:58 AM by melm00se
http://www.sco.ca.gov/eo_fiscalissues_budgetreform.html

California’s budget relies heavily on the personal income taxes paid by our wealthiest residents. In 2005, the richest 13.5% of California taxpayers earning more than $100,000 paid 83% of all income tax revenues. However, revenues derived from capital gains rely even more on our richest taxpayers. That same year, capital gains from the top five percent of taxpayers comprised $100 billion out of the $111 billion in total capital gains reported – an extraordinary 90%. Those revenues rise and fall dramatically with the stock market, resulting in California’s unstable and volatile revenue stream.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-14/new-york-state-may-face-deficit-topping-11-billion-as-bonuses-set-to-fall.html

New York state’s deficit may be 22 percent wider than estimated by the Budget Division because tax revenue, including from Wall Street bonuses, may be less than expected.

The division has forecast a 13 percent increase in taxable cash bonus payments to $39.7 billion, according to Erik Kriss, a spokesman. By contrast, Options Group, an industry consultant, estimates the annual payments will drop from a year earlier. Capital gains revenue also may fall short of estimates.

“The next administration will have to contend with a snowballing budget deficit that’s growing fast and picking up speed,” Dennis Tompkins, a spokesman for state Comptroller Thomas DiNapoli, said Dec. 10 by e-mail. “Next year’s deficit could total $11 billion or more.”

Last week, Morgan Stanley told bankers and traders to expect 10 percent to 30 percent smaller payouts than for 2009, according to two people briefed on the matter. The compensation pool for bankers and traders at JPMorgan Chase & Co. fell 10 percent in this year’s first nine months, while at Goldman Sachs Group Inc. the amount available was 18 percent lower, according to company reports last month.


Historically, when higher tax rates are put in place, the money in motion (the only money that is subject to taxation) slows dramatically, thus impacting tax revenues and it is a fact of life that the rich that have the most money to put into motion.

Before you start pointing at the taxation rates of the 40's, 50's and early 60's as examples to refute my argument, the global economic picture must be taken into account. Exiting WWII, the USA had, effectively, the only economy that was untouched by the violence of war: England, France and Germany all had a good portion of their economic capabilities damaged (or destroyed) by the ravages of war. US heavy industry, shifting from a wartime footing to a peacetime one, had massive markets for almost 2 decades into which our economic surpluses could go. This caused a lot of money to flow around, so much so that incredible level of taxation (that in any other economic time would have crushed the economy) could easily be absorbed.

As this period came to an end and the European and Far East (mainly Japan) came back on line, those markets began to contract as far as American exports were concerned. Couple that with the fact that with US industry running at damn near 100%, the difficulty in upgrading that industrial infrastructure to the same (or better) point of modernity that these re-established economies enjoyed, JFK had, in reality, no choice but to cut tax rates and then as the situation was exacerbated in the mid 1970s (as Euro and Japanese industries began to reach THEIR peaks and then with the oil shocks from the OPEC embargo), Reagan had to to the same to jump start the economy (Reagan's and both Bushes' real problems were taxes went down but government spending did not..talk about spending growing to and beyond your income).

None of this will matter or make an impact as you have already made up your mind that by increasing tax levies on the "rich" all the problems will be solved. Nothing is further from the truth. The "rich", with their larger discretionary incomes, can slow their buying and selling (remember: money in motion is, effectively, the only money subject to taxation) and that impacts income tax revenues.

Economies are interdependent beasts, the "rich" help drive the jobs, which pays the not "rich" a wage who spend their new income on products and services which cycles back to the top driving the income of the "rich" and the government sits on the side collecting taxes which are used to create the environment in which both the "rich" and the "not rich" can strive to be successful (physical infrastructure, educational facilities, internal and external security etc). Note that this is not a "trickle down" model, but rather an 'spiritual child' model where the interaction of all the economy's players interact to form a child.

If one of the players (and I just named 3, there are more) is not contributing at a healthy level the spiritual child is lacking something and is not healthy and the surrounding players begin to suffer to one extent or another.

Both mainstream political ideologies (left and right) have their own visions of what is the correct "balance" to maintain the child's health but both are wrong: sock the rich or soak the poor and you knock their relationship off the necessary equilibrium and the child suffers.

When it comes to economics I am neither on the right nor the left but a centrist: do what you must but only in small and easily reversible increments. Don't throw a giant boulder onto one side of the balance and hope it solves the problem. If it doesn't you have caused an even larger problem than when you started.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. "Historically, when higher tax rates are put in place, the money in motion slows dramatically"
= false.

as the period of the bush cuts demonstrates.

historically, when capital becomes concentrated, money in motion grinds to a stop.
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melm00se Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. I beg to differ
looking at economic growth (a good money in motion indicator) during the Bush tax cut era (2001 - 2008), it shows a different story.

the economic growth ranged from +6.9% (late 2003) to a -1.3% (January 2001). Please note that I am discounting the "Great Recession" as it was not driven by tax rates but other factors.

Lets also look at the JFK cuts (impact years: 1961 to 1968). Economic growth range from a low of -5% (1961) to a peak of +10.2% (1965).

Reagan tax cuts (1982 - 1989): pretax cut economic growth was -6.4% and during the run after the tax cuts a high of 9.3%.

Another indicator of money in motion is tax revenue.

Kennedy tax cut years: tax revenue almost doubled ($94.4B to $153B - faster than economic growth)

Reagan Tax years: Tax revenues grew by almost 50% ($617B to $991B)

Bush tax cut years: +33% ($1.99T to $2.5T)

So if there was less money in motion (as your contention indicates), how did the economic growth happen? how did tax revenues change (at a pace faster than economic growth would warrant)?

Higher tax rates do one thing (and the current administration admits it): slows economic growth. Why? money freezes in place to avoid triggering taxation. I have read a study that indicated that a tax hike that equals 1% of GDP lowers GDP by between 2 and 3%.

If you differ, please feel free to post your data so it can be looked and analyzed.

Sources:
Top Marginal Tax rates: http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php
Tax Revenues by year: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200
Economic growth rates: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=USD
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. bush v. clinton (cuts v. hikes) = 2.6 v. 3.6
Edited on Wed Dec-15-10 07:22 AM by Hannah Bell
average gdp growth during the bush tax cut years was below the historical average of 3.31.

during the clinton years, above that average.





The higher the taxes on the rich, the better the economy historically.

The lower the taxes on the rich, the closer to recession or depression.

In the modern period, the two biggest cuts on the taxes of the rich were followed in short order by a depression.

That would be the 20s & now.


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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-10 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. look, joker...
...i'm not even going to bother reading your bullshit tax system analysis.

here's what we need to do: distribute wealth fairly and tax people according to the needs of the nation.

we do not need the wealthy to establish justice.

defenders of the rich can go fuck themselves.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Blah-de-blah-blah. Your verbosity does not obfuscate the obscenity of mega-wealth.
Edited on Tue Dec-14-10 06:51 AM by WinkyDink
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
13. recommend
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
17. Once they decided to reform education they certainly did become very threatening.
The philanthropist as target..fascinating.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. K&R. This manifests a SICKNESS in our society. And our government SERVES this class.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. This one sentence should be a stand alone OP. Especially the 2nd sentence.
"OUR GOVERNMENT SERVES THIS CLASS" All the facts lead up to it and when all the actions of our government is taken into consideration, is the only conclusion left to draw.

It's an infection, a sickness.

Our government serves the few at the expense of the many and too many of us accept it.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
22. Couldn't be that way but for a social environment .....

that encourages, aids and justifies. Greed is a result, not a cause. We are creatures of our environment and that social environment is Capitalism.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. The material conditions create the social conditions, not the other way around.
We are conditioned to defer to those with money because confronting them threatens our access to money (through wages) on an individual level. Hence the dictum never to fuck with the person who writes your paycheck.

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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hence...

while we may deplore these rich bastards we must focus on the structure which perpetuates them as a class. Various malefactors may come and go but does it matter which one or group of them is putting the squeeze on us when if they are gone others just replace them? Only by holding the means of production in common can this cycle be broken.
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reformist2 Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
24. Plato & Aristotle thought wealthiest citizen should earn no more than 6x the poorest.

And we all know what Jesus and Buddha thought...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. kr
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
28. remember the days of kings and queens?
well, remember reading about that time period. Pretty abysmal but a direct result of abject wealth at the expense of the majority.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-10 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. "These people have lost their heads."
Well, maybe not quite yet. But there's still time.
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