Forget the "poor" family making $250,000 a year. Let's look at a different reality.

[MadHound]

These people don't live in NYC or LA, they live in the Midwest, the Great Plain, you know, flyover country. Mom and Dad are making minimum wage, working three full time jobs between them. Day care, HAH! Grandma takes care of the kids. A mortgage? They're renting a double wide at the edge of town for $400 a month. Their car is a twenty year old beater, but they don't have to pay for parking at least. But it does need a few hundred dumped into it every year to keep it going, because they simply can't afford the thousands it takes to buy even a decent used car.

Between all three jobs, the family is surviving on less than forty thousand a year. Forget vacations, forget eating out (it's a treat to eat McD's), forget $1,500 a year in new clothes, those are patched or handed down from one kid to the other. If new clothes are needed, well, there is Goodwill or Salvation Army.

Mom, once the beauty of her high school graduating class, is now thirty five and looks twenty years older. Poor health care, poor nutrition, long hours at work, all this hardship takes its toll. Dad is a grizzled, thin man. He too is beaten down from working long and hard all his life. He is whipcord thin, in part because he takes a hit of meth now and again to keep him going as he goes from his first job to his second. He gets up at four in the morning, starts work at five, and doesn't get home until ten or eleven. While other thirty five years olds who make $250,000 a year are still fit and healthy enough to take on physically engaging hobbies such as rock climbing and skiing, these folks simply can't, their bodies are worn down already, with strained muscles and disintegrating joints. That can't afford a doctor, and they can't afford to take time off from work, so they just keep on going, praying that they can keep their sorry bag of bones functioning until the kids are out of the house. That's where the meth comes in, it does help one keep going.

There are millions and millions of people like this across the country. Don't give me a sob story about not making it on $250,000 a year. I don't care where you live, what your cost of living is, if you're getting that kind of money in your paycheck, you are living a comfortable life. A lot of people are truly struggling, feeling abandoned and betrayed by both parties and by this country in general. Sure, these aren't the brightest people in the world, nor the most educated or refined, but they are certainly more deserving of our pity, our help than some banker making a quarter million living on Long Island.

The real sad thing is that our economic system is condemning not just these people, but their kids and grandkids to the same sort of life or worse. College is unattainable, and the number of jobs where you can make a decent living with just a high school diploma are increasingly fewer. These kids are doomed to a dark future almost from the day that they're born, except in a few rare cases.

To be worried about the plight of somebody making a quarter million dollars a year is ludicrous. The ones we need to be worrying about, and helping, are those who will only make a quarter million dollars in two decades of worth. Those are the people I reserve my sympathy, and my help for.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. K and R. eom

[Arkansas Granny]

2. K & R

[molly77]

51. This is not right

Thanks bill for NAFTA and repealing Glass-Stegall. How could the clintons even think that anyone bearing that name should run for office. Same goes for the bushes. They have ruined their respective parties and the country.

[femrap]

73. K and R

And I would like to add my Xmas Carol which is along the same lines as your prose.

It is sung to 'Deck the Halls'

"Tax the Rich"

Tax the rich until their eyes bleed,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Deny the Banksters our home deeds,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Goldman Sachs now rules our country,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
The Chinese own our industry.
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

The USA is mired in debt,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
As the rich fly private jets,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Our Middle Class has disappeared,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
While the wealthy stood and cheered,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.

Corporations flaunt their greed,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Consuming stops and then we're freed,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.
Our jobs are gone thanks to Wall Street,
Fa la la, la la la, la la la.
Flipping burgers gives me sore feet,
Fa la la la la, la la la la.


I am truly ashamed of our 'leaders' who have no conscience whatsoever....and many, many of our consumers/citizens who look down upon the hardworking people in the Fly Over States.

[MadHound]

3. kick n/t

[bonzotex]

4. kick rec n/t

[bengalherder]

5. k&r n/t

[FogerRox]

6. The real world. KnR

[LongIslandGuy]

7. Here in NYC $250k/yr isn't poor, but it isn't too far above middle class

[Hannah Bell]

18. how do *you* define "middle-class"? median family income in nyc = $56K.

paragraph 4:

Median household income was unchanged, at $51,116, but median family income rose to $56,552 from $54,846.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/nyregion/29poverty.html


i don't know how "middle-class" is defined in new york, but here in the hinterlands we tend to think of it as the lifestyle of the families in the middle of the income distribution.

that being the case, a family making in the neighborhood of $24-$84K in nyc = "middle class".

a family making $250K is not anywhere near middle class. a family making $250K is in the top 3% of new york families.

if you think not, it's because your perspective is skewed by your own class position, which you see as "the norm" because that's where you hang.

[kath]

31. + a brazillion

[onlyadream]

47. I'm a Long Islander

and you have to make at least $120k to live here comfortably. That's just a fact. I live in a "not so great" town and my real estate taxes on a modest 3 bedroom is close to 10k. It's crazy. Many friends have left (because they couldn't afford it) and headed south. I'd follow them, but I'm anchored here by family.

As for those who make $250 on Long Island, I'd say they're living in NICE houses (not mansions) in NICE areas (probably paying 15k to 20k in property taxes). They have new (or close to it) cars and take a nice vacation once a year. This would be heaven to those described in the OP, but I wouldn't describe these families as "rich" in the sense of banker who gets a million dollar bonus "rich".

[OrwellwasRight]

70. Nobody ever wants to admit they are rich.

Just because you don't own a jet doesn't mean you are not rich. At $120K, you are well above the median income. If you own a home, as it sounds like you do, have health insurance, have never had to take a payday loan or beg the landlord to accept your rent late; if you can go to the grocery store and buy more than top ramen (30 cents a meal) and generic brand everything else; if you have three bedrooms and not a studio or a trailer; then, by US income standards you are rich. Get over yourself.

Edited for typo.

[TBF]

49. It is the same in any of the major cities for the doctors, lawyers, and bankers -

you'll find we have much more in common than you'd think.

Those of us who struggle at that level (and "struggle" really isn't the right word) are the ones who had little starting out - worked their way through school, took out loans for 6-10 years to complete all the education/internships. Then you graduate, work incredibly long hours, and watch the money go to pay back exorbitant interest in student loans. You live a "middle class" life - you have normal vacations to see grandparents, new clothes, doctor's visits and so on. Think Beaver Cleaver - and people used to have that lifestyle on $20,000 a year or whatever... there used to be many more living like that.

It is a much different story for those who have family money to push them through, and then they come out making that kind of money. Then it goes to the kids' accounts (if you need to - grandparents cover a lot of that in really well-heeled families), exotic vacations, luxury homes & cars, etc...

So, no, nobody is suffering on $250K a year and they shouldn't be complaining. But some of us have much more in common with you than we have with the millionaires/billionaires. And we are in solidarity - at least I am - to fight this system that holds down so many.

[OrwellwasRight]

71. So are you saying you want your tax cuts too?

or would you kick in 3% so that we can put a little more toward schools and such?

[TBF]

85. I thought the tax cuts were fool-hardy, and when you're making

$250K and above you can afford to kick in more. I don't know exactly how much we saved - definitely over $10K but less than $20K. As workers our withholding is adjusted and you deal with it - maybe cut back on some extras in terms of the new clothes, dinners out. Ya know? But I'm not the type to wait in line for $180 Air Jordan shoes either ...

I think those tax cuts absolutely should have expired above $250K. Under $250K should've stayed in place, people need them. But think how very much we're losing at the very top. If mine go up an extra $1500 a month it's not that big a deal - but think of the billionaires and how much those revenues would be. This was very foolish on Obama's part.

[OrwellwasRight]

89. Agree. 100%. nt.

[BobbyBoring]

94. Yeah Cuase

Most of that goes for taxes~

[Forkboy]

8. K&R

[lunatica]

9. Good writing.

You could flesh it out and make a novel out of it. Steinbeck did in The Grapes of Wrath.

[Solly Mack]

10. K&R

[taught_me_patience]

11. NOBODY is saying $250k is "poor"

and those people deserve sympathy. However, those who live in expensive cities know that $250k is not a lot and can be considered middle class.

[Angry Dragon]

17. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=59788&mesg_id=59788

[kath]

32. B. Frickin'. S. -- anyone in the top 3 percent of earners is definitely NOT middle class.

No how, no way. How can you possibly say that the top 3% is in the middle????????

And as someone noted above, even for NYC this is way, way, way above the median.

SHEESH.

[LiberalLoner]

44. Thank you. I live in NoVa and I think people here HATE me because

we have enough income to be able to afford an average home and we get medical care through the military and we never go hungry. AND we have cable TV.

I didn't realize until just recently, that most of the people here on DU HATE me and wish me dead, because I am at a place in my life where I am no longer struggling.

It's been an eye-opener, that's all I can say. We don't make anywhere close to $250,000 a year, but we make more than $40,000 a year if you count the housing allowance we get for being military and living in NoVa.

I still consider myself a very liberal Democrat, but it's eye-opening to see that I am hated because, unlike when I was in my 20's, I am no longer pinching pennies and going without dental and health care.

[Cal Carpenter]

50. You really think it's about someone like you being~hated~?

Why do we personalize things so much when it's not about us as individuals, it's about a system that creates and maintains such inequality?

I tend to avoid these discussions because it always becomes so personal, but it's not. If we can all step back a little bit maybe we'd get a better sense of the big picture here.

[TBF]

54. Really good post here -

I completely agree. I sometimes give examples to clarify points, but you are exactly right focusing on the system. The rich/poor division is just like repub/dem - it's used by the very wealthy to keep us all fighting - so we don't notice who is really robbing us blind.

[Cal Carpenter]

63. Thanks

You're right - it's keeping us all fighting. The poor/working/middle class can never get anywhere if we don't stop fighting each other.

:)

[johnfromokc]

109. This is true....

The lower and middle classes fighting amongst ourselves distracts us from the real issues.

[LiberalLoner]

65. I'm worried about it, yes. n/t

[MadHound]

68. Why are you personalizing this? Why are you trying to climb up on this cross?

It isn't about you. You admit that you're not making a quarter million a year, so this isn't even about you.

What this post of mine is about is the laughable notion of somebody being poor when they make a quarter million a year. It isn't about you, it isn't about hate. It is about showing people what true poverty is.

[LiberalLoner]

77. I'm just worried, that's all. Wondering if people hate me because I'm not as poor as the

example you gave. I WAS that poor earlier in my life - spent awhile sleeping on the floor of an apartment, no bed, no car, eating at McDonalds was a treat. No doctor, no dentist.

But I'm not that poor any more. And I'm glad to not be that poor any more. And really I don't understand why anyone should be that poor. Not when there are billionaires. Doesn't seem right.

But I don't want to get beheaded or something just because I got lucky and have some nice things now.

[MadHound]

83. No, people don't hate you because you aren't poor

Having been poor, homeless, during my early adulthood, I feel no guilt now that I'm living a decently comfortable middle class lifestyle. Though I do remember to give back to those who helped me along the way, and those who are where I was.

What irritated me is the notion that anybody, no matter where they live, can ever consider themselves even within hollering distance of being poor if they make a quarter million a year.

[LiberalLoner]

90. That's easy for me to understand. I found that to be irritating too. I was just worried was all.

Thank you for reassuring me.

[OrwellwasRight]

75. Nobody hates you.

They just want you to chip in a little more based on your ability to pay. How is that hate?

Saying that DUers or liberals "hate" you is buying into the right wing meme.

[LiberalLoner]

79. I totally believe in higher taxation for those of us who aren't impoverished. Also,

Dh and I give as much as we can to Salvation Army and other charities. I mean we literally could take one of those $4,000 trips each year because that's what we give. We try to be good people. I always vote for D's.

[OrwellwasRight]

82. Then please don't complain how DUers hate you.

I can assure you we don't, in the generic sense or the personal sense. My point was not to shame you into giving up your charitable giving history, my point was to say the discussion on DU is focused on the unneeded tax cuts for the highest earners. If you oppose those tax cuts expiring, people on DU will have a beef with you. If you don't, there's no beef. Hell, I welcome Warren Buffett to DU.

[Hannah Bell]

98. what? you make $40K & you think people hate you? i think you're misreading something.

the article which sparked all these OPs was one in which the financial times tried to paint people making $250K as "poor".

[Dappleganger]

113. oh please.

[Rozlee]

92. We make almost $250,000 a year and can barely afford groceries

I get VA and Social Security disability and my husband sold his business scheduling speakers around the country for an amount I'm embarrassed to quote that we draw from every month. But, it's all going to help my daughter-in-law keep from losing her legs and to provide healthcare for my little granddaughter that has Goldenhar Syndrome as well as helping them with their everyday bills. Their health insurance won't cover my daughter-in-law's pre-existing brittle diabetes and my daughter's insurance won't cover all my granddaughter's. We've had to pay out-of-pocket medical expenses for our daughter-in-law's hyperbaric treatments and several surgeries on her legs. We've paid for countless specialists for our granddaughter and every month it's one emergency, one new crisis after another. My son lost his job because he had to miss so much of it due to his wife's constant hospitalizations and we've had to buy a handicapped van for them. It never ends. I'm surprised my husband hasn't divorced me since they're not even his kids, but mine from a previous marriage and they were already adults when he married me. He's a damned saint.

[MadHound]

97. Sorry for your troubles,

But imagine all of these problems coming down upon you without that nice sum of money you have sitting in the bank. Imagine pulling down a max of thirty five, forty thousand a year, and having to deal with those surgeries, those illnesses without the resources you and your husband have. Happens all the time, that's why we have those little plastic cans for change sitting next to convenience store cash registers, the ones with the heartbreakingly cute picture of some kid on them, needing money for vital surgeries and care.

Our system is fucked up, and sadly, it doesn't look like it's going to get fixed anytime soon.

[onethatcares]

108. what would a public option have done to help you out?

what would a government run healthcare system done to help your daughter in law ? Imagine how much that could have saved.

Sounds like you have a great man there, congats, you must be a great woman.

[sendero]

12. Well said...

.. and so true. So many people just don't have a clue what the working poor in this country go through.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Thank you, Mad Hound!

Every once in a while (more frequently of late), the NY Times prints some sob story about poor affluent people, never about the REAL working poor.

[Angry Dragon]

14. $250,000 is the new poverty level

It is assumed by republicans that anyone under that is not really trying
and just lazy

[BzaDem]

15. K & R. (I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.) n/t

[Hannah Bell]

16. kr

[LynneSin]

19. Yes and alot of them voted Republican too

I know there are plenty of DUers in these regions and yet facts are facts - these midwest/plains states will again and again vote against their best interest. They'll sacrifice their future, their health and their education in order to protect their guns and keep God in the government.

Perhaps if these folks would turn off Fox News, change their radio station and find a church that doesn't have some fundie running it - they might actually realize that the republicans they keep voting into office will never EVER get a rat's ass about them.

[Amonester]

30. Yes.

But many blue dogs Democrats will also never EVER give a rat's ass about them too.

That's the tragedy of having a government BY the Rich FOR the Rich, no matter who they would vote for. Of course, a government by the Rich Democrats will (sometimes) give them a few more crumbs than a government by the Rich Republikkkrats would (if at all), but not that much. These poor workers don't donate thousands en masse to them.

K&R

[MadHound]

55. Perhaps, but why are they voting 'Pug?

A lot of these families were good Dems at one time. But they have seen little benefit out of being Democrat the past thirty years. Clinton got their well paying job at the brick factor shipped down South to Mexico. Grandma got kicked off of welfare thirteen years ago because she fell through that "welfare reform" crack because she simply couldn't work any more(standing on your feet everyday, with your hands plunging in and out of ice cold water every thirty seconds does take its toll).

Meanwhile Bobby-boy's construction job was taken over my Mexican immigrants, legal or illegal it doesn't matter, either way they worked for much less than Bobby, so he was shit out of luck. Is it any wonder that he's pissed at immigrants?

From the perspective of these folks, neither party is helping them out. Sure, they'll vote 'Pug right now, because they are currently making a lot of noise and don't despise them as hicks the way Dems seem to do, but frankly they would vote Democratic if somebody actually came a damn about them, worked to help them and wasn't so damn condescending. Yes, here in Missouri, we just elected 'Pugs to the state legislature in large numbers, and put a 'Pug in the US Senate. But we do have a Democratic governor, SofS, elected a Dem to the Senate in '08, voted a dead Democrat into office over Ashcroft, and have a long, proud Democratic tradition in this state? Why, because these Dems actually do things to help these people, don't look down on them, aren't condescending towards them.

The Midwest is, historically speaking, a place where wild eyed liberals and progressives come up with ideas that take rolls over the rest of the country like a tornado coming off the plains. The greenback movement, the Populist movements, labor movements, even things like Brown v Board, we're not talking about dumbass conservative hicks here, we're talking about hard headed liberals who were and are fighting for their lives.

These people are pissed, and pissed people will support anybody who will address their issues, even if it's only with lip service. The Democratic party has forgotten the Midwest, written it off with the same stereotypes and condescending attitude that you have. But if they would stop playing the coastal game, if they would stop bending over backwards trying to get Florida, if they would follow Dean's words of wisdom about fifty states, the Dems could make great gains out here.

Furthermore, folks out here are tired of the stereotypes that are foisted upon us by folks on the coast. You bring up guns, like we're just a bunch of gun toting, gun shooting fools settling our differences with the gun. In reality, gun deaths per capita are higher overall in places other than the Midwest. D.C. is at the top of the heap, Missouri, Oklahoma and other Midwest states fall far behind Southern states, hell, even California is ahead of Nebraska in that regards.

We're also fairly cultured out here. I only have to travel twenty five minutes to see performances by Itzhak Perlman, Wynton Marsalis, the Moscow Ballet, and many others. In the past four years I've attended speeches by JFK Jr., John Kerry, Eugene Robinson, and other major liberal political figures. Yes, we're out here in the hinterlands, but we're not dumb, nor uncultured.

We're leading the nation in the establishment of green energy; wind power, solar power, methane digestors, and biodiesel. We're also leading the nation in the per capita production of organic food. Hell, Missouri puts out more organic food than half the East Coast. And remember, no farmers, no food.

Yes, we are a religious people out here, people do cling to their religion. But what else can they cling to in times of trouble? The religious community, fundamental as many of them are, offers a support system that is lacking in the rest of our social structure. We're an afterthought both for people in the rest of the nation and in D.C. For instance, people go on and on about crisis in urban education, but little is said about the crisis in rural education, one that is just as wide and deep as what urban schools face.

Finally, we're sick of stereotypes. That whole hillbilly, Ma and Pa Kettle schtick, it's getting really, really old. In fact all it shows is the ignorance of those who still bitterly cling to those views. I suppose such stereotypes provide those on the coasts with a comforting feeling of superiority, but recognize this, out here in the Midwest, both liberals and conservatives think that those who indulge those stereotypes are ignorant fools who deserve to wallow in their stupidity. You want to remain comfortably smug in your superiority of living in "civilized" Delaware, that's fine. But remember, that emperor has no clothes no more. Oh, and I suggest that you take your nose out of the air and look around in your own state. You too have more gun deaths per capita than Nebraska, Iowa and other Midwestern states. Who's clinging to their guns?

[riverbendviewgal]

61. Read Joe Bageant. He can explain it

in his book DEER HUNTING WITH JESUS.

[MadHound]

67. Sounds like an interesting read, but the fact of the matter is that I don't have to read about it,

I live it, I'm here, born and raised. I know what goes on with my fellow Midwesterners and why. But thanks for the book recommendation, it looks interesting.

[BobbyBoring]

96. I was raised

In Winchester VA where Joe Hails from. Knew his brother and him by reputation. He was the first guy busted for pot in Winch. Visit his website for lots of fun reading

http://www.joebageant.com/

[riverbendviewgal]

100. I do and he writes back..

His last blog was soooooooo right. The whole gist of it is in his last lines...

Have a merry...

[Mimosa]

72. MadHound, you know how both parties use wedge issues to manipulate voters

Republicans happen to be the masters of exploiting economic and social insecurity.

[MadHound]

78. Oh I know that, I encounter it out here all the time,

But I also know that if Democrats came out, like they did when I was younger, fighting for the interests of these people, they would get elected in droves, and these wedge issues wouldn't matter. Mel Carnahan knew this, Joe Teasdale, Jerry Litton and others.

Bread and butter issues still trump wedge issues when it comes down to it. But far too many people on both sides get caught up in the wedge issues and forget bread and butter issues(remember the Kerry pic with him holding a gun:eyes:).

Mel Carnahan was a staunch opponent of Concealed Carry in this state, yet he served two terms as governor and was elected to the Senate, even though he was dead. That simply proves my point right there.

Cut through the garbage of wedge issues, side with the working folks on the bread and butter issues and you will win. It's that simple

[Mimosa]

86. "Bread and butter issues still trump wedge issues when it comes down to "

Truer words were never spoken...along with 'it's the economy, stupid.'

Merry Christmas and a Blessed Happy New Year to on e of my fave DUers. :D

[MadHound]

88. Thank you, and you too have a Merry Christmas,

And let us all have a much better, and blessed New Year.

It is snowing outside right now, so here in a bit I'm going outside to play in it.

Peace:hi:

[Gemini Cat]

102. +1

I wish replies could be recommended.

[RainDog]

20. great post. k & r n/t

[prolesunited]

21. I get your story

It's a reality I know all too well, but I really don't think that most poor, struggling people are using meth. That's a RW stereotype that doesn't need to be perpetuated.

Plus, from what I understand, you're not going to be working or holding your family together for too long once that drug gets hold of you.

[russspeakeasy]

22. This is now Obama's economy. He, Timmy G. and Larry Summers

made the decision to help their friends and screw the rest of
us. I don't care what he says during his re election campaign
(which has already started). I will not work for him nor vote
for him again. I do not forgive and I do not forget.

[truedelphi]

25. Yep, that's where I put the blame myself.

Obama's teams of economic experts are owned by the people on Wall Street. So the massive amounts of bonus money, just bonus money, thrown away to the Financial Players in units of Billions of US Dollars - think if that money instead was going to our school districts. Or to the local fire fighters. Or social workers. Or even if the bonus money was being lent out to Middle Americans with decent business idea.

Most of my cousins grew up in "Fly over country." They were secure kids whose parents had decent wages.

After all, the Big Auto Makers in Michigan relied on the small and mid sized businesses in the Midwest to make any number of things for the industry. Including such items as 'heat mitts."

Heat mitts were needed during part of the welding process, and during part of the vulcanization process. Human workers had the heat mitts on their hands when pulling very hot items off away from the welders. or out of the assemblies where various rubber components were being "proofed."

Now those jobs relating to welding and vulcanization have moved south of the border. And guess what - the workers there get blisters on their hands and arms as they are not given heat mitts. Those are now considered an unnecessary expense.

I imagine this holiday season, Geithner, Rahm and Obama will be sitting around laughing their butts off over how dumb we "retards" are.

Obama is getting great props for his recent "victories," while the one thing that needs to change, the overall economy is not being stopped one bit from its inexorable slide DOWN.

[JDPriestly]

34. My cousins are still there.

The story in the OP sounds like some in family except they would not dream of taking meth and are regular church-goers. They keep their kids in school and struggle hoping that things will change. And my relatives vote Democratic but have been abandoned by the Obama administration. Compromise is more important than doing what is right for the real middle class which earns less than $100,000, probably less than $75,000 just about anywhere you go.

[sasha031]

23. K&R

:kick:

[lonestarnot]

24. K & R!!!!!!!!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

26. We could do with a lot more concern for many of those at a subsistence level.

Unfortunately, our media and its corporate directors have gone out of their way to quash America's regard for these people.

[leftstreet]

27. K&R

[Lugnut]

28. I wish I could rec this 100 times.

The dollar stores are doing very well around here. The parking lots at Aldi's and the Goodwill store are always crammed. Most of the hiring done around here is through one of the many temp agencies. The local auto junkyards and auto parts stores are doing a bang up business. Crime is rampant. Unoccupied properties stripped of copper pipes and wiring are an everyday occurance. $250,000 is an imaginary number.

[Dreamer Tatum]

29. This example is as ludicrous as the one you criticize.

But both are fictional, and therefore not worth anyone's time.

[kath]

33. How exactly is it ludicrous? Please explain.

Are you saying there are no people who live like this?

[JDPriestly]

35. Are you talking about the example in the OP?

Because it is very realistic. Substitute religion for the meth, and I can show you people I know who live the life described in the OP. Try living on minimum wage here in California. Try it in Los Angeles. You will soon be going home crying to your mom and dad to please take you in. Because, unless you give up food or live within walking distance of your job, you will have a hard time finding even a room to rent on minimum wage.

[molly77]

52. I used to rent a house out because I could not sell it

The tax write offs slightly balanced the pain of dealing with some unruly renters. Then the tax write offs stopped under clinton with a republican congress. If the house sold, after so many years of renting it out , that income was taxed just like a business. I knew that those changes in our law would affect the poor the hardest. The rents would soar. This is an example of how our country has been sold out. DC does not want the poor to even live.

[JDPriestly]

93. I think they will do away with the homebuyers interest deduction

and cut social Security. BP, however, will be able to continue to write off all of its expenses.

I realize that we pay the corporate taxes when we buy things. But that is the point at which we should pay them. That is the point at which we decide what we can afford and what we can do without. It is that decision to buy, let's say the I-Phone, or not buy it that is crucial. We should pay taxes when we consume things we don't really need.

[Rex]

36. So, not being worth your time, you still needed to point out how

the example is ludicrous (bullshit I know exactly who he is talking about)...just so everyone knows. :eyes:

Thanks for wasting time in a post you think is worthless. :crazy:

[Lucian]

39. Your post is the first dumb thing I've read on Christmas Eve.

Congratulations.

[quaker bill]

41. Not as fictional as would be comforting to believe.

I put myself through college working alongside of folks who meet the general outline altogether too well.

[MadHound]

43. Ludicrous? Really?

I live out in rural Missouri. I know these people. I live down the road from them. Wanna come out this way and meet them?

Your skepticism simply shows just how out of touch with reality you are. Then again, I understand, you're one of those people who are so wrapped up in the East Coast/West Coast bubble, you simply have no clue as to what is going on in the rest of the country, especially the part you so sneeringly, disdainfully refer to as fly over country.

But this is real friend, I know these people. And this is a reality that is being repeated across this country, with minor variations, millions of times over.

What's ludicrous is just how out of touch you are. Perhaps you should change that.

[TBF]

53. That's not true -

I've lived in both the rural poor area (growing up) and now in the suburbs. He's right on target. Of course it's generalizing, and not everyone is on meth and all that, but yes this is an example that is not far out there. I see it on facebook every day as well, corresponding with my old high school friends who never left my area. I've had the advantage of doctors, spas, etc.. for years while girls much prettier than myself in high school are now completely worn out from the way they live.

[Joe Fields]

66. Your post is fictional. The OP is spot on.

I don't know where you live, or who you associate with, but I know plenty of people in the fix that the OP describes. Not all with an affinity for meth, but a few. They are hard working men and women, barely able to make ends meet, with little future ahead of them. The "fiction" you accuse the writer of is a fucking fact. I see it. I live it.

[OrwellwasRight]

80. It's not ludicrous.

It well describes where I grew up. In California, by the way, not in a fly-over state. I once dated a guy who drank NyQuil so he could sleep by day and get up fr his all night job. He was known to partake of the meth to wake up at night. And for all of us, Burger King was a treat. shopping at AmVets was normal, and nobody had a new car, ever.

[L0oniX]

95. Take some time off from the golf course and yacht and look at the real America.

:eyes:

[TheKentuckian]

105. What is ludicrous about it at all other than maintaining the number of jobs in this environment

[watajob]

37. All I can say is ...

... "Amen!"

[StarsInHerHair]

38. k & r

nt

[Fumesucker]

40. Thanks for the post MadHound.. Recced..

[HuskiesHowls]

42. Unfortunately, sometimes 3 jobs is a dream...unemployment sucks!! n/t

[tiredtoo]

45. In my travels last summer i saw many like this and..

Many had signs in their yards for Republican candidates. When I asked them why they supported these candidates the most common reply was... "I don't want the government messing with my life." We have a long way to go to eliminate these myths perpetuated by the likes of Limbaugh,Beck,Palin et all.

[Speed8098]

46. Stop Electing Millionaires to Congress

I don't believe there is one person in either House of Congress that is not a millionaire. Put a cap on the income of someone who wants to be a candidate, limit campaign funds and elect someone who is intelligent but middle or lower class. Money doesn't necessarily mean intelligence, in many cases it's inherited or they were just in the right place at the right time.

A small business owner who only takes enough of a salary to live as middle class family and invests the rest of the money in his employees and his business seems like a good candidate to me.


Things will begin to change for the better.

Wealth doesn't equal intelligence.

[54anickel]

48. I don't think their income has much to do with it. Corrupt power corrupts. And that's all they are

surrounded with from K street in the DC bubble. Kohl is worth millions, yet is decent Senator. Paul Ryan came from more modest means, yet look at what a jack-ass he is.

My own dad would have fit your description of a good candidate, but he wouldn't get my vote!

[PhillySane]

56. Absurd Reality

What is truly absurd is where we place the bar in allowing people to live in poverty, while placing the bar at a much different level for those who live in luxury. The Federal minimum wage is set at $7.25 an hour. This amounts to about $15,000 per year (if you work 40 hours a week). For the wealthy, thats probably the monthy mortgage payment on one of their houses. That gap alone says a hell of a lot.

For Obama to create a $250,000 bar for tax-cuts, when 10% of that is more than we'll allow the least of us to earn by working 40 hours a week, borders on criminal.

And those making the minimum wage will end up paying more taxes in 2011 out of their paychecks. What's going on here?

[Riley18]

57. Here in Florida there aren't enough jobs to go around once

let alone for a person to score three jobs. Right now some people I know are barely getting by with sporadic work combined with being product testing guinea pigs. They are lucky to get $100 or so a month in actual pay.

Now we just heard from our upstanding new governor that he intends to limit unemployment checks to 6 weeks and then require community service from the unemployed. So in Florida it is going to only get much, much worse under the new regime.

[riverbendviewgal]

58. I am thankful to have what I have.

I net just over 14k a year on my company and govt pension. I'm 63. I take money out each year from my investments which is the money my husband left me almost 10 years ago when he died. I had $60 k last year as annual income. paid 23 percent income tax, federal and provincial combined. and my general medical was free....I do pay $1600 a year for the extra medical through private insurance.

Canada is much kinder to it's people. For one thing we all can go to the doctor any time we need to.
I'll be getting a MRI soon for a problem...I live in rural Ontario and the government pays for part of my gasoline and a hundred dollars for a motel room as I have to drive 2 hours away for the MRI.

The problem with America is too many people make money on war and those are the elites, the ones making $250k or over a year. There are enough of them to control the media who convince people like my NJ Bubba brother that it is not right to tax the rich..He says they should be allowed to keep all their money. I don't talk to him much these days.

If there was no DU I would believe all of America is really ignorant, stupid and greedy.

Thank you for giving me a belief all is not lost.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy New Year. and whatever.

Love you All.

[PhillySane]

64. Thank You

for this post. It helps illustrate the problem here and differences between us and other democratic countries. If you can still call us that. Don't forget, in order to get elected here, you need a huge war chest in the form of cash. And the poor folk don't have that to spare. So guess who gets to run for elected office? The ones who can tap that cash, and they ain't lookin' out for the rest of us.

[me b zola]

59. K&R

[colorado_ufo]

60. I was with you until the justification for using meth.

Meth doesn't come free, and if they decide to make it for themselves, they are endangering the entire family. The town I live in has a heavy meth problem: it doesn't keep you going - it deteriorates your teeth, your skin, your hair, your relationships, your life. The manufacture of it creates a huge fire hazard (our fire department stays busy), and the toxic fumes can poison everyone - especially children.

My husband and I worked three jobs to keep the family going when we had to and never touched meth. Our families, living in another city and era, did the same. So did countless others.

This doesn't discount the reality of everything else written about this very common scenario of forgotten and struggling people, and my heart goes out to them all, including the meth users. But meth doesn't help - it only makes things 100 times worse.

[MadHound]

69. Not denying that it makes things much worse,

But the fact of the matter is a lot of people, people who work two, three jobs, do take meth simply to keep on going sometimes. I've seen it, I know it happens, it is reality. Sometimes it is just that, an occasional five dollar hit to get somebody over a rough patch, sometimes it gets people hooked. But the fact is, what I describe does happen, much more frequently than a lot of people can even conceive of.

[B Calm]

62. Excellent post! K&R

[tpsbmam]

74. I have to take issue with one description of the couple

The description of them not being "the brightest people in the world." I realize it's a description of one hypothetical couple but the description falls into a stereotype of those who struggle like this couple does. I know quite a lot of people in their boat or similar. And I know more than a couple of them are incredibly bright. No, they're not well read (actually, one is). They got through high school and never looked back. I don't know how they did in high school, just that they graduated. Yet they are incredibly bright and, given different circumstances of birth, may well have been among the $250,000 professional crowd.

I'll give my own two examples. I know a wonderful woman who's become a friend. She comes to me once a week to help with things I can't do or have great difficulty doing due to disability. She's a high school graduate and not at all well read. But she's incredibly bright. I see it every time I give her something to do that requires creativity and problem solving. I have yet to see her fail at a task and she succeeds through pure brain power. I have no doubt that given different circumstances growing up...say being born into a family where intellect was highly valued & nurtured...this woman would have excelled. Another person I'm thinking of IS incredibly well-read. His knowledge about history, philosophy, etc is impressive. He's an auto mechanic. And he devours books. He is, indeed, incredibly bright. And, given other circumstances, he might be doing what he's doing or he might be the $250,000 professional.

Other than that, excellent post!

[MadHound]

81. Criticism taken,

Though I did mention, in full, that "these aren't the brightest people in the world, nor the most educated or refined."

So it sounds like your friends, like many of mine, fall into the "nor the most educated or refined" category.

But I understand where you're coming from, some of the most intelligent people didn't go on to college after high school, yet they are still well read, creative, intelligent people.

But I also know, and have experienced the fact that many people out here simply aren't the brightest bulb in the bunch. That's not a criticism of them, many of these people are still wonderful, caring, friendly people. But some of the stuff they've done, including members of my own extended family, proves the point that they're not smart, book smart or otherwise.

[tpsbmam]

87. Yeah, I definitely know some of the not brightest bulb types.

The sad thing is I also know some who started out life pretty lucky with families who could afford all kinds of things and school was expected if not valued. They've gone to college because it was expected and their families could actually afford to pay the tuition. And a couple of them aren't the brightest bulbs either -- they never would have gotten that education left to their own devices. They got through it all because it was expected and they have decent jobs because of connections and by virtue of their educations, such as they were (they were mostly ones who squeaked through). They're not professional stars, but they do better than average in terms of salary and job status. Hell, I could point to a few dim bulbs in our federal legislature! Lots of it is the luck of the draw starting out in life.

[Doremus]

76. You think the average "poor" person uses meth?

I'd like to think that isn't true but have no stats either way. Do you?

[MadHound]

84. I live in the meth capital of the country

I know many people who use and have used meth, friends, family. I know why people use it, why they get hooked. For some, it is a recreational thing. For many, it is simply to keep on going, to make it through the day. They don't use it often, that's why they're not racking up a hundred dollar a day habit. But there are plenty of people out there who do a five dollar hit now and again, just to make it through the night shift.

No, I don't have stats on this, but then again I doubt that they keep stats on motivations. What I do have is lots of personal knowledge from working homeless shelters, and watching this drug tear apart friends, family and the wider community.

[TBF]

91. I worked in a rural area of Virginia for awhile -

I was in grad school at the time - about 10 yrs ago. I talked a lot with one of the secretaries at the company who maybe with her husband made $35 or $40K a year. They had a house and cars, she had her corporate job and he did construction. A couple of kids. Both high school grads. She invited me up to the mountains to "party" on the weekend and she wasn't talking just beer. I wasn't interested but they did this most weekends with friends. It's definitely out there in rural areas, not just inner cities.

[OneBlueSky]

99. "more deserving of our pity" . . . ummmmm . . . no . . .

they neither want nor deserve our pity, or anyone else's for that matter . . . what they could use, however, is a little compassion . . . since we're all interconnected and interdependent, both with each other and with the rest of creation, what happens to them also happens, in a very real sense, to the rest of us . . .

your overall point is well taken, though . . . thanks for reminding us that whatever our situation, there are millions of others who are much worse off . . . when we begin to recognize that they are all a part of us, and we of them, then we might actually begin to see some real change on this remarkable Earth home that we, humanity, seems so intent on destroying . . .

[skepticscott]

101. So if they can't afford to eat out

where does the money to buy meth come from?

[MadHound]

103. Five bucks a hit,

As opposed to possibly falling asleep on the job, and losing that job. Yeah, many people make that trade off.

Many people who take the occasional hit don't get hooked. Many others do, that's when things begin to go south in a hurry.

[hunter]

104. First couple hours is to pay for the gas and the piece of shit car...

...you need to get to work. Next couple hours the meth and/or cigarettes you use to stay awake. Then your lunch or dinner.

Welcome to hell.

[cap]

106. Just heard a god awful story last night

Some poor guy and his wife had a fire in their trailer and lost everything. The Red Cross put them up in a motel for a week and are kicking them out on the street. The guy works part-time at whatever he can get which isn't much.

A local farm is taking advantage of people and offered him $40 for two days worth of work mucking the stables -- just to see if he'd work out. In other words, the man worked below the minimum wage just to see some money.

Sick. I tell you. Sick. And these jerks want a tax cut.

I know a nice nun over at Catholic Charities. I passed along the phone number.

[varelse]

107. K (and would have R'd if I'd seen it sooner)

[earth mom]

110. Sorry but you lost me at the meth part. Anybody that does meth doesn't hold down a job for long

and has no one to blame for their situation but themselves.

I will save my sympathy for people who are actually living paycheck to paycheck but staying clean while doing it. There are millions of them in this country.

And before I get jumped all over for my opinion, I have brothers who were drug users who threw their lives away. They never had stable jobs or lives and their drug use turned my and my parents lives into a living hell so I know what I am talking about.

[MadHound]

111. So you're essentially basing your opinion on your own experience,

And letting your personal bias color your vision of reality, not to mention your emotions.

Look, I could have told this story without mentioning the meth, because it is a story that is repeated a million times throughout the country. But instead, I included the part about meth. Why? Because it happens. Not everybody who takes meth takes it on a regular basis. There are many, many people who take a hit now and again simply to get through the day. Some get hooked, some don't. But the fact that I was trying to convey is that these are people who feel compelled to turn to some sort of chemical in order to continue to do the virtually impossible and the completely inhumane.

Yesteryear, it was prescription uppers, dexadrine and other such amphetamines, mother's little helper. Today, it is meth because it is easy to get ahold of and cheaper than getting the real stuff.

You may or may not approve, but really your approval is not needed. The point is that these people feel compelled to take this drug just to make it through a long night shift, their second full time job. If you don't feel sympathy for people who do this simply in order to survive, well, that says more about you than perhaps you care to put out there.

[earth mom]

112. My argument is that drug users do NOT get anywhere in life if they keep using.

I've watched it happen first hand and I know.

You don't even know me, so don't even put that I me that I don't care!

I do have sympathy for people who turn to drugs, BUT at some point the enabling and sympathy has got to stop and addicts have got to take control of their addiction themselves. No one can do it for them. Ever watch shows like Intervention or Celebrity Rehab? Ever been to a 12 step meeting? If so you will know that it is up to the addict and ONLY the addict to save him or herself. Believe me, my parents and I tried to save my brothers. But we could not save my brothers because they did not want to save themselves in the first place.

I'm calling bullshit on the excuses in your OP and if you don't like hearing that you are probably in denial.

Where would those people in your story be if they didn't use drugs in the first place? Probably much better off though probably still living paycheck to paycheck like MOST of the people in this country do.

FYI, ever since I first joined DU, I have been fighting against the rich sons of bitches who have destroyed this country because I care about the middle class and poor.

But I am not going to have tons of sympathy for drug users who don't even try to get clean and use excuse after excuse to keep using.

My husband and I lived for YEARS as the working poor. And we NEVER EVER turned to drugs or even alcohol to get through it.

[MadHound]

115. Again, you're filtering this through your own personal prism,

First of all, there are a number of rich and well off people who have regularly used, and some continue to use, drugs for a number of years. Think, Keith Richards, Carlos Castanada, hell, Hunter Thompson, just to name a quick three off the top of my head.

But mainly, you are completely missing the point of my OP because of your fixation over somebody using a hit of meth on occasion.

Forget the meth, it it irrelevant to the message I was trying to put across. Instead of meth, insert that the person drinks tons of coffee to keep awake. It isn't about the drug that they're using, it is about the fact that they have to use some drug, licit or illicit, in order to keep going on occasion. When you're working a sixteen hour day, you have to use something now and again, and frankly a person shouldn't have to work such long hours, make such choices simply to make a survival wage.

And yes, there are millions of people out there who don't use drugs, but are still in the same boat as the people I described in my OP. Come out my way and I can have you meet some.

Geez, way to miss the forest for the trees:eyes:

[TheKentuckian]

114. Very incorrect. Plenty turn out like your brother other keep on going.

Many just take a hit here and there to make it through crazy schedules like one might a 5 hour energy, coffee, Mountain Dew, caffeine pills, white crosses, etc.

Not my bag but I surely have known professionals and multi-job folks that do it and tons that have gotten caught up and got away from it.

I've known people that methed themselves through school while working.

I hate me some meth and think of it as pretty similar to crack in what it can do to people but the reality is not as you perceive, not in the one sided perspective. Your observations are a part of the picture, a huge piece but still only a piece. There are folks just as described that take a bump to stay on their feet, not as a lifestyle. The little money they spend to make it through the long days is not their problem but rather the need which drives them.