I don't get REALLY upset often...BUT

[PCIntern]

yesterday, Christmas Eve, a conversation took place in my presence which was just so awful, so gut-wrenchingly, head-shakingly, viscerally mangling, that even I, the cynic, can't really get past it. This comes on the heels of the conversation I had with the Teabagger which I posted the other day.

A young lady came to see me professionally - she's about 22 and extremely sweet and charming African-American gal, whom I've known since she was a toddler. One of my employees, also AA and who's been with me for over 20 years, said, "Merry Christmas" to the young lady on her way out. The patient replied, "You know I don't celebrate Christmas." Now I must add that many times, my staff have 'private' conversations with patients about personal matters or families which are connected in the neighborhood or church or whatever, so it did not surprise me that my staff member might know something which I did not. So my employee asked, "Are yo a Jehovah's Witness?" And the reply was, "No, I became a Muslim. My mother curses my religion." My staff member replied, "Well, I love your mother. You need to come back to Christianity. All roads lead to Jesus."

The young lady was a bit taken aback at this...so I leaned over to her when we were alone and said, "Don't you ever let anyone tell you what religion you 'need' to believe in. And I apologize if you're upset. And you know what? I'm Jewish, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm not on any path to Jesus - now or ever." she seemed appreciative...

[WinkyDink]

1. IMO, the rudeness began with, "You know I don't celebrate Christmas." One doesn't reply to a

well-meaning sentiment with a retort.

Sorry.

[PCIntern]

2. Yeah, well a kid says stuff like that...

and afaIc, 22 is still very young. She meant no disrespect..."sorry" I didn't make that clear - it should have been written, "You know, I don't celebrate Christmas."

[MiddleFingerMom]

11. 22 is an adult... a YOUNG adult, to be sure... but not a "kid" in terms of awareness of rudeness.

.
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And something doesn't quite click here. Why would "You know, I don't celebrate Christmas"
lead you to believe this:
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Now I must add that many times, my staff have 'private' conversations with patients
about personal matters or families which are connected in the neighborhood or church or
whatever, so it did not surprise me that my staff member might know something which I did not.
.
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I would think that the "kid's" statement, stated as it would be with your ORIGINAL punctuation
and its understandably "rude" interpretation, "You know I don't celebrate Christmas" WOULD
cause one to think that but -- with the added comma -- how did you jump to your conclusion?
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The employee was also rude... but ONLY if she actually did KNOW that the other person didn't
celebrate Xmas. Otherwise, she simply wasn't doing a very good job of thinking all-inclusively.
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[Motown_Johnny]

5. if that person knew she was Muslim

can you be certain it was a well meaning statement?

[DailyGrind51]

8. Even Muslims revere the name of Jesus, it should not have been a problem.

My Jewish and Muslim friends seem to have no problem wishing me a "Merry Christmas"?

[csziggy]

10. If the other person has been told before that she doesn't celebrate Christmas

Then the "wishing" is not a well-meaning sentiment but an aggressive comment and rude.

Since the OP states that the 22 year old woman had been a client since she was a toddler and that the employee had worked there for "over 20 years" then I would not be surprised if the employee knew the young woman's religious beliefs and was using the "Merry Christmas" comment to criticize the young woman's choice of religion and had done so before. She may have deliberately been using it to get in the "You need to come back to Christianity. All roads lead to Jesus." comment.

That is the problem I have with the whole debate about what greeting to give at this time of year - the people who might find "Merry Christmas" offensive do because they have been subjected to prosthyletizing far too often. If they respond with any other greeting such as "Happy Holidays" they are thought to be part of the "War on Christmas" and are harassed even more.

Any other religion that is this aggressive about inflicting their beliefs on people is considered a cult and dismissed. Because Protestant Christianity is the dominant religion in our country, why should we accept the same behavior without treating it the same way?

[JackRiddler]

17. Actually, it wasn't rude at all. For that matter, neither was the employee's conversion attempt.

I'm glad to hear the whole story. People should speak openly about what they believe. A lot of phantoms may blow away as a result. I'd especially like everyone who isn't a "Christian"* in the sense of believing in the God-Jesus savior who will send you to heaven or hell when you die to say so, so that we can start rolling back this country's particular insanity with openness and resolve.

---

* - In quotes because you are a Christian only if you take the teachings of the Christ as your moral guide. In fact, even if you believe the magic stuff about the "son of god" and resurrection and immaculate conception and heaven and hell, you're still not a Christian if you're not striving your best to live by the teachings of the Christ. Christ was very clear on this point, that nominal pronouncements of faith and loud praying in church mean nothing, that rather: you are what you do. If you're not trying to live by "love your neighbor," you're not a Christian.

.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. Which bible are you reading?

Christians can do anything they want and act like a christian.
Hitler was a Catholic and said he was sent by God. His actions do not make him a non-Christian.
It's quite possible to be a christian and be a cruel bastard. Christians are self-identifying.

Jesus said lots of hateful and cruel things that are ignored. "I come not in peace but with a sword," etc. He cursed and condemned a lot of people to hell. And a fig tree that wouldn't fruit out of season.

:wtf:

You are using the "No true Scotsman" fallacy by defining a true christian.

There are plenty of good people who are Christians, but the Bible has so much contradictory stuff in it that it is worthless as a moral guide, except for some good stuff like The Sermon on the Mount, judge not lest ye be judged, and "As you did it unto the least of them, so also you did it unto me."
Unfortunately, it is all taken as gospel, even the cruel and horrific and primitive parts.

Who do I think is a good christian? Jimmy Carter. The Carter Center is close to eradicating Guinea worm disease. A stunning accomplishment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Agreed

[spedtr90]

19. Blessed Ramadan

How many well- meaning sentiments do you supposed would be returned to that?

More would happen than "you know I don't celebrate ramadan"
_________________________________________

Seeing the "retort" in print doesn't convey the tone in which it was said.

[RegieRocker]

22. Very good point

I wish that people would respect what is being conveyed " well wishing " and not focus on the religious nature. You could wish me happy Ramadan, Rashashana etc. I would not take it as insult. I would take it as a compliment that they thought I was one of their brothern. Atheists need to also take it as a well wishing also. To me this problem is indicative of our inability to understand and accept other peoples views.

[geckosfeet]

21. No - this is a retort - 'Bullshit!'

The ladies reply seemed only a statement of fact to me.

But I must say that in my mind thinking that 'Merry Christmas' is somehow a universally accepted signal for kindness and love, and expecting everyone to share that view is not right. It could also be extended as, and viewed as, an act of aggression - an affront to ones own religious beliefs.

[northernlights]

35. unless her tone was snarky, that was not a retort

it was a simple statement of fact.

The employee could have simply changed her statement to, well then I wish you a happy holiday season and let it go at that.

And if the employee has known this young woman for 20 years, there's a fair chance she *knew* the young woman was not Christian and was, herself, being a snarky bitch.

The fact that she took it upon herself to start preaching to this young woman suggests the latter rather than the former.

[shireen]

37. wrong

i get annoyed when people wish me "merry Christmas." Why do they assume i'm Christian? It may have been well-meaning, but it was also insensitive.

"Happy Holidays" is a perfectly fine way to extend that well-meaning sentiment.

[Ineeda]

3. your employee deserves a rebuke (at least) n/t

[PCIntern]

6. I was not pleased...

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. Ahhh....*religion* . n/t

[madokie]

7. Sure happy it has no place in my life

Much happier since I gave up on religion years ago

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

45. I presume that happened in 2007 or later, correct? -nt

[madokie]

46. Let me see

I was 14 at the time and I'm damn near 63 YO now. I'd say no it's been a while longer than that. Why do you ask?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Because of this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=3127575#3127593

[madokie]

48. In that thread I was asking if maybe human was always human

and evolved with the times. I wasn't saying that we weren't something else I was wondering if maybe we were always human, thats all I was trying to say back then.

On edit: What does what I was saying then have to do with the fact I've been non religious for most of my life? Still am

[Taitertots]

9. Your employee? Fire that bigot n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bananas]

13. I hate it when that happens.

I hate to be gut-wrenchingly, head-shakingly, viscerally mangled.
But as Buddha said, "Existence is suffering."
And as Ben Franklin said, "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
I think that goes for eggnog and xanax and maryjane, too.
Hope you find some peace of mind this holiday season.

P.S. Santa gave me Beers of the World.

[hlthe2b]

14. When I was working in the ME, I received Christmas cards...

from Muslim friends. They, of course were sending cards to me, in respect of my celebrating Christmas. While they don't view Jesus the same as Christians, he remains an important prophet. In that respect Christians and Muslims actually have more in common, than Christians and Jews. I should add that I never discussed my religious views with them. They simply assumed, knowing I was American and neither Jewish nor Muslim, that I must be Christian and thus celebrate Christmas. (While there is a real spectrum, in terms of religiosity among Muslims (and Jews) in the ME, I think it is hardest for them to appreciate that many Americans are not religious at all, or atheists).

I believe your young patient has a lot to learn if she was uncomfortable, as newly converted Muslim, being wished a Merry Christmas... :shrug:

That said, it sounds like your employee went way over the line...

[Sherman A1]

15. Interesting

appears to be a cascade of failures in this one, but they have all been pretty well described above..

Someone taking offense for a seasonal greeting.

Someone pushing their religion.

Description of the folks involved....

I think I would just let it all go and not make it an issue.

Under the heading of "stuff happens".

[MedicalAdmin]

16. Another perspective on this.

I run a medical clinic. Yes, the young newly converted (assumption on my part) young lady did not respond to the salutation as well as possible, but, and it's a big but, she was not the professional in this exchange. She did not have a professional or ethical obligation to rise above her personal feelings. Alledical personel are there to serve, assist, and help the patient heal. And nompne from the docs to the receptionist is above this obligation.

At our clinic our receptionist is an ordained minister and she never prolitizes at work. Never to a patient. The receptionist at the OPs clinic needs to know that it is not professional behavior. Would I fire her? No, but I would have a chat with her about the incident and try to guide here to being able to express her faith without crossing ethical guidelines. If it got worse and she was unwilling to stop then I would consider having to replace her but 20 years experince is not something that is tossed away because of one incident.

I'm sure it was just a slip up. Wish her a merry Christmas and
move on.

Good work with the pt btw.

[JNelson6563]

20. Did you address this issue with staffer?

WTF is wrong with her??

Julie

[cascadiance]

23. I think the staffer needs to be reminded of policies...

... that would keep such discussions neutral, especially in an office that offers counseling as its business, where you will have a wide variety of patients, and not all of them "sweet and charming" either.

There's a way to provide seasons greetings in a way that's neutral, and that should be encouraged. But if it bends towards prosthelytizing, then that's not really acceptable in that office I think. It certainly is understandable if someone might make an honest mistake, and all that should be needed is a quick apology, and back up to say that a happy holidays at that point.

You never know what kind of other people might go to that office for counseling. Some might not be expected to be as "nice" as that patient was, and react a lot more severely too (which would also be wrong, but understandable given the nature of the business of counseling).

Certainly the staffer can be told before warning them about prosthelytizing that the intent of their greetings was likely a good one, and try to make it less of a "bad mark" for them and more of a way for them just learning how to work better and advance in the profession of counseling, which is presumably why they are there.

[pipi_k]

24. It's getting so we don't know what the hell to say anymore

and I, quite frankly, am sick of it.

So what are we supposed to do...keep little notebooks on us at all times and consult them before saying anything to people we know so we don't end up OFFENDING them?


Don't say this to this one...don't say that to that one...


And if we don't know the person and assume he or she is a Christian, we say "Merry Christmas" and end up offending an Atheist.


Say "Happy Holidays" so we don't offend someone by assuming he or she is a Christian, and we're conducting a War On Christmas.


Fuck it. I'm tired of people being offended like we're supposed to read their minds.

[MadMaddie]

27. I usually just stick with Happy Holidays with people I don't know.

If they reply with Merry Christmas I will reply with the same.

[uppityperson]

30. "You need to come back to Christianity. All roads lead to Jesus"

This goes way beyond what is professional. Read the whole post.

[Raine]

33. Agree, anymore I guess I'll stick with "Have Nice Day"

of course I've heard that sometimes people take offense to that too. I guess they take it like you're odering them around or something. :eyes: No wonder incivility is running rampant, you can't say anything to anybody anymore. :-(

[northernlights]

34. You wish them a happy holiday season, or you wish them a

Happy Christmas and if they respond that they don't celebrate Christmas, then you graciously say, "Ooops, In that case I wish you a happy holiday season."

And then you let it go.

What you don't do is start preaching to somebody because they dare to follow a different religion and dare to actually mention that they aren't like you.

It's really not that complicated. Pretty much *every* religion has a holiday around this time of year. Only the atheists aren't celebrating one or another religious belief. And even atheists can appreciate the solstice and lengthening of the days.

[Enthusiast]

25. This is a pretty common rude

behavior in a society with a majority religion. It doesn't mean we have to like it. Good job.

[MadMaddie]

26. Thanks for being the person you are

The arrogance of people with their religions is mind boggling.

[Mira]

28. Seems like maybe, maybe, a "Merry Christmas" coming from the employee that was not

meant to offend, just a rote wish.
I would believe that
if
it
had not then let to: "All roads lead to Jesus".
She knew.

Reminds me of the customer who invited me to come to one of our most huge churches here (S.Bapt) to see him play Jesus in their Easter play, and get nailed to the cross.
I told him I appreciated the invitation, but not even his participation would get me to come back to church.

He shook my hand and looked into my eyes: "I'll pray for you anyway."

That really felt awful. I've been praying for him every since.
:)

[shireen]

38. one time, a stranger said she'd pray for me ....

i think it was a Jehovah's Witness at the door and i didn't want to talk.

I replied, no thanks, i don't want to be saved. :evilgrin:

[RegieRocker]

29. This topic speaks volumes

about our society. When someone says to me "L'shanah tovah" I do and will not take this as a insult. I take it as them wishing me something good. That they consider me one of their brethren. The problem I see is indicative of the inability of most to not be able to see this. That some are not able to accept and understand others customs and beliefs for politeness sake.

[uppityperson]

31. "You need to come back to Christianity. All roads lead to Jesus" goes beyond

what you are talking about. If she'd not said that, then it would have been an ok response but that was too much.

[uppityperson]

32. "You need to come back to Christianity. All roads lead to Jesus" is proselytizing and doesn't belong

at work.

[Jamastiene]

36. Exactly.

If it had been me, I would be less likely to go back to a place where I'm going to be preached at like that.

[Odin2005]

39. Ugh, talk about offensive!

[jillan]

40. "Imagine no religion". Why can't people pray in their own personal way, and leave it at that?

[GeorgeGist]

41. Might have been less upsetting ...

if you'd let your "employee" hear what you had to say.

[Cutatious]

42. Anyone who responds to "Merry Christmas" in the negative

is looking for issues. If someone wished me Merry Ramadan I would just say thank you and/or "I'd love to have a free trip to Mecca to see the sights", or some other positive reply.

[RegieRocker]

44. We agree and our posts are almost identical

It's my belief is the right and only belief! You're going to hell if you don't believe my way. You're an oddball, crazy and a sinner. It is this reason that we have wars and the wars we are having now. Both sides think the other is the sinner and must be punished. When in actuality it's their leaders that are causing the problem.