You MUST know algebra

[Lionel Mandrake]

to graduate from high school in California. That's the law.

Among other things, you must know how to solve simultaneous linear equations in several unknowns, and you must know the Pythagorean theorem.

The algebra requirement may make sense for future scientists and engineers, but how many other people use algebra in their daily lives?

When was the last time you had to solve an algebraic equation in a grocery store?

How many high school students, and their parents, are terrified of the algebra requirement for graduation?

[BzaDem]

1. Good. n/t

[PufPuf23]

Algebra is not that hard and underlies most "word problems" of day to day life. nt

[sammytko]

163. Thank you! That is algebra in a nutshell!

[tomm2thumbs]

495. agree. They should just rename it 'Fun Math' and everyone would think differently

Algebra sounds like some kind of tantric position you do on your head while suspended by strings

[blondeatlast]

451. About 2 weeks ago, that was how I explained the need for it to my 8th grade son--

now he actually enjoys doing it!

[gmoney]

454. I heard a RW talker trying to do basic math on the air today... LOL

was talking about the proposed 15-cent per gallon gas tax, and since the average mileage of cars in the US is 24 MPG (which sounds high to me), it would cost about .6 cents per mile, and how if you have a 30 mile commute, that will cost, uh, what, uh duh, uh, $1.80 more... but actually, it would be 18 cents, based on those numbers. It's a decimal point problem rather than algebra per se, but I'd argue that having modest standards for high school graduation is not uncalled for.

When I went to college orientation, they had us take placement tests, and according to the test, I should have started in Calculus 3. But the problem was, there were no calculus problems on the test. There weren't even trigonometry problems. Just basic algebra and some geometry. I guess I got them all right, so they assumed I belonged in Calc 3. I'd had a little Calculus in high school and struggled with it, so I opted instead to start with Calculus 1. But it goes to show that even nearly 30 years ago, math standards were pretty low. Now I'm sure they're even lower, despite the OP.

[Hawkeye-X]

2. And I forgot algebra, linear equations and Pythagorean theorem

I'm sure I'll learn it all over when I'm studying with my son, 12-13 years from now. :)

[Riftaxe]

3. Sounds like it should be more of a requirement

to enter high school, not graduate it.

[ecstatic]

4. I don't agree

There are many occasions in day to day life where a basic knowledge of algebra is useful. Especially when shopping--many people may not even realize that it's algebra that they're doing!

[timtom]

43. When's the last time you used a quadratic equation?

I've asked several engineers over the past 20 years this question, and the response was unanimous: never!

Simple arithmetic and simple equation manipulation is plenty for 88% of us to function in society. Simple.

Simultaneous linear equations, indeed! Bah!

Revisit the classics, rather. Stress writing and reading skills. The current state of college undergraduates is pitiful in those areas.

[Pancho Sanza]

60. Engineers don't fiddle with that stuff any more, they have computers

but somebody has to write the code to solve those pesky quadratics...and the partial differential equations and triple integrals that pop up when we have a problem in celestial mechanics that determine whether our astronauts will be able to come home from the moon or the space station, etc. Your 88% better keep hoping the other 12% doesn't disappear.

[timtom]

75. Somebody DID write the code for those pesky quadratics...and MORE

It's called Algebrator from MathSoft. Let's talk digital. And it's not the only program that does that.

I know that math became accessible to me in the late 1970's with the proliferation of calculators. Computer programs are the next step -- computer programs that solve problems and explain, step-by-step, how the problem is solved. Repetition is a good learning paradigm when one lacks the natural inclination.

To those who would argue against using technological advances in mathematics and would have us solve everything by hand, I say, Yes. Let's take away the technological advances. Let's start with scrapping logarithms. And, while we're at it, let's get rid of the number zero, so graciously provided by the ancient Persians (among others). Actually, I don't know if that argument is still being presented, but I had a heated debate with someone in 1982.

[stevenleser]

364. All that is great. Its still important our kids know math. n/t

[Pholus]

380. Try the TI Voyage 200 sometime. It does symbolic calculus. Course the students

let it replace their brains and as a result they couldn't think their way out of a paper bag.

I'd love for you to come in to talk math sometime. I'd have fun with you if you consider logarithms and zero a technological advance instead of a philosophical one.

[timtom]

461. Was not zero a technicological breakthrough as a place holder?

Did it possibly open up new methods to advance scientific understanding? I don't understand your dismissiveness. Aren't multiplication tables a technological advance? Haven't all these advances brought us beyond the one stone for one cow going through the stile?

[Pholus]

473. I'd call it philosophical. It changes the thoughts I can have. What I make with those thoughts

is technology. Definitely sending a satellite into space (a technological achievement) is much harder without being able to think of zero has a number no different than any other (a philosophical achievement).

But those are internal definitions, not textbook ones.

[Confusious]

509. it's not just the numbers

Doing the math teaches you how to think in a certain fashion.

[snagglepuss]

117. LOL. Great retort. Have you been lurking for awhile or is it chance that a

mathematician, one familiar with celestial mechanics no less, finds a math related OP on the first go around? :)

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

262. That's what my dear hubby does for fun

He decided to calculate sunrise and sunset. Then went through Kepler's calculations of the elliptical orbit of the earth in Excel, told me that perihelion is at January the third. We are retired and he enjoys going back through his calculus and math, now that he's old enough to really understand it.

Pretty amazing stuff.

Omar Khayyam came up with a calendar that is more accurate than the one we use and he lived around 1000 A.D.

Great movie: THE KEEPER:THE LEGEND OF OMAR KHAYYAM, 2005, with Vanessa Redgrave.

[burrowowl]

288. Re a Mars probe crashing because

no one noticed that same data was plugged-in as meters and other as feet.
However, if you don't know your math, you might trust whatever the puter says and not catch a GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out).. This occurs more than you might think.

[CTyankee]

110. I agree with you. We need to stress critical thinking skills in our students.

Liberal studies programs prepare students for this. It's a shame that people don't quite "get it" about liberal studies...

[Gman]

153. Math develops the best critical thinking skills

it develops logical thinking, finding the missing pieces using what you already know. There are a great many benefits to the brain from studying, practicing and using Math.

[knitter4democracy]

313. I teach English, and I agree.

I tell all the students I help at our school that they need to make their brains learn how to think that way so they can use that thinking for other subjects, that it's all related.

[CTyankee]

317. Interestlingly, so does acquiring a second language early in life...

while developing brains can easily acquire it. My grandson is in an Italian immersion program at school. He is in the first grade and has been taught for 90% of his day entirely in Italian since kindergarten. He reads and writes in two languages. Linguists say that this is a skill that improves critical thinking...

[timtom]

339. Totally agree!

[Lionel Mandrake]

371. Absolutely right.

It's a shame so few of our children learn a second language early in life. If a toddler learns a second language, he will hear all the phonemes and speak just like those whom he hears speaking the language. Later on, most people gradually lose their aptitude for learning languages. High school is way too late for optimum results. This is because we evolved to learn languages while very young. Learning a language as an adult is unnatural; a few people can do it very well (e.g., Heinrich Schliemann), but most of us have no such wild talent and end up speaking with an American accent, because we don't hear the new sounds properly and because we have difficulty reproducing the sounds we hear.

By the way, music is like language in that it is best learned very early. That is probably because our brains process music in much the same way that they process a language. Toddlers who take piano lessons often develop a sense of absolute pitch, which is a big advantage for a musician.

[timtom]

463. Lionel, doesn't it seem strange the vehemence of some of the discussions here?

It's like an agenda. Or, more like "I'm right and you're wrong, dammit!"

I don't understand. It seemed like such a wonderful topic for discussion, but it turned into such a shit-fest. Accusations and recriminations abound!!

At least there are a couple of us who agree with your point of view.

And, I wonder how good at quadratic equations and simultaneous linear equations Ben Bernanke and Timothy Geithner and all the gang at Goldman-Sachs are. I bet they're REAL good.

Anyway, sorry to see your wonderful post disassemble in such fashion.

[Lionel Mandrake]

526. Yes, I was surprised by the vehemence.

I think we all care about education. It's too bad that we can't agree to disagree in a civilized fashion.

The majority here disagrees with me. I don't mind that. I do get pissed off when I am accused of wanting to dumb down the schools or the population. That is evidence of too much heat, and not enough light.

I also have noticed that a few people seem to agree with me, at least on certain points.

As to the financial whiz kids -- I have no idea whether they know any math.

[timtom]

530. As to the whiz kids--

that was just me being snarky.

[CTyankee]

486. There are scientific studies behind all this.

As for speaking the acquired language, my grandson's class is taught by a native Italian speaker and her assistant, also native. Even the volunteer classroom helper is a native speaker. This will ensure his learning the language in what the linguists call "near native." The funny thing is they all have regional accents. When I visit his classroom I hear Roman, northern Italian, and Napolitano Italian being spoken and I can hear how different they sound! I am also required to only speak Italian in the classroom if I speak...but I am NOT an Italian native speaker...

[Hawkeye-X]

351. My son is learning American Sign Language as well as English

so we think it's important. He's 22 months and he's starting to learn his ABC's and numbers.

[Gman]

467. And giving children puzzles to work and play with in early life

also builds logic and by extension critical thinking skills.

[Exilednight]

444. Music has been proven to be a better skill for critical thinking. Children who know how to play

an instrument and read music tend to outperform other students, even those who are a whiz when it comes to math.

Maybe we should make it requirement to be proficient at playing a musical instrument in order to graduate.

[Gman]

466. Learning music theory can be similar to learning basic Calculus

beyond Algebra.

[CTyankee]

490. I have noticed that the Yalies I run into here in New Haven all seem to have a musical

talent or taste. Some of the super smart ones have been performing with their local symphony orchestras for a few years prior to college. As a result Yale has a fabulous undergrad symphony orchestra who are not a bunch of music majors. Of course, Yale graduate Yale School of Music is superb and very hard to get into...

[Arkana]

143. Just because you never have to rattle off your times tables after elementary school

doesn't mean it's not useful to know them.

Fuck, it's attitudes like this that create future Republicans.

[timtom]

270. Yeah, and I can deduce from your salty reply that

you have completely disregarded the reading and writing and classical studies part of my post. You have an opinion and you sounded off really rudely, and did not engage in anything remotely like heightened dialogue.

It's attitudes like YOURS that create current republicans.

<Edited to remove vile epithet>

[Pholus]

299. Then they were not real engineers. How did they solve projectile motion problems in Physics I?

Edit: Additionally, you're telling me that they are engineers who are incapable of using nonlinear models? How do they understand impedance matching or forced damped harmonic motion. Can they balance forces so that their buildings don't collapse?

British historian Len Deighton in "Blood, Sweat, Tears and Folly" claims that most of the idiotic decisions made by the British in WW I and WW II could be fairly attributed to a failure of their education system -- in particular an overemphasis on a "classics" education at the expense of a modern scientific and mathematical background. In fact, he is quite adamant that the failure of the British empire came about because their administrators, while eloquent speakers and writers, simply could no longer understand the demands of the modern world.

[timtom]

309. All right. They weren't "real engineers"

They were civil engineers, to a man. They dealt with storm and sanitary sewer design on large highway projects. And, while they had PE after their name, they mustn't have been "real engineers." Or else, they lied to me.

And, again, typical of a completely left-brain thinker, you missed the intent of my post.

Advanced math for mathematicians
"Get-along" math for the rest of us.

Basic reading and writing skills for Mr. and Mrs. Front porch
Advanced reading, writing, and various rhetorical skills for the chosen few.

And as to when my engineers used quadratic equations: the question implied "after school."

Let me be quite clear on one thing (this is a slightly broader perspective involving focused, left-brain people), never, NEVER, and I do mean never let an accountant run your company/organization. They lack the general overview thinking to make rational decisions beyond cost control. By extension, that would apply to engineers, as well.

(This has been a generalization, but not a hasty one.)

[Pholus]

314. If only we were talking about "advanced math" here.

Hmmm, you say "left-brain" thinker like it's a bad thing. But I'll ignore your attempt to insult to make the more important point:

Please identify your civil engineers, man or woman, so I can avoid them and stay away from their projects lest they fall on me and kill me.

Here are some formula for computing the load on a beam from a Google search on "civil engineering equations"



What is that, an "x squared" you say? Oh, that is.... let's see I know there is a name for this expression.... oh yeah.

It's a QUADRATIC term. Given the name because functions of "x squared" are called quadratics. And the solution of a quadratic is most directly found from the quadratic formula. Unless you are incompetent or lazy in which case you don't do safety calculations I suppose. Hence my worry about your associates.

I got your point, but you are the one with a comprehension problem. The stuff you guys are complaining about -- that IS the easy stuff that anyone should know. There is a whole world of harder, more useful, more fundamental mathematics out there.

But some folks have a limited, narrow perspective of the world and they don't appreciate it's true beauty. These people draw little lines past which they cannot step but still find time to brag about their "liberal arts" education. The problem is, they've spent a lot of time doing their best to ensure they do not have the true breadth implied by that term.

Madness.

And as to your last point, 20% of CEOs are engineers -- probably because they truly understand the products they make and they know where NOT to cut corners.

http://content.spencerstuart.com/sswebsite/pdf/lib/2005_CEO_Study_JS.pdf


Edit: Removed "simple" from the description of the formulae above. It's not simple, it's just not incomprehensible.

[timtom]

340. See? Reading comprehension is important.

You missed the adjective in front of the "left-brain" phrase.

Balance, my friend, balance.

And tone.

[Pholus]

383. What, "completely?" If you relied on the adjective to give the entire meaning then...

according to my first composition professor you were not writing clearly.

Of course you may beg to differ, but you should take that up with her. I've noticed that some humanities types (and I am generalizing to a handful of them that I didn't like and ignoring the many I loved) can gin up strong, lengthy and impassioned arguments regarding matters of style where in the end neither side can be forced to dislodge from their opening opinion based on facts. Never had patience for arguments of that sort, though I never had a problem figuring out how to BS them for the "A" either. Course that was just the bad ones.

The ones I loved? Well, they usually had a manner that indicated that perhaps they were intellects who appreciated all knowledge. They were the ones who could relate to their students and cross discipline boundaries. Try taking a physics of music course taught by a world-class jazz musician for an interesting class. Maybe you wouldn't like it, cause it involves sine and cosine functions which are a couple steps above systems of equations in the standard syllabus. But I noticed that they were involved with advancing knowledge as a whole and they were never trying to divide lines past which it was unreasonable to continue a line of inquiry. I got A's from them too, but it was usually because they inspired me to produce.

Which is kind of funny when you think about it. Here I am, the "completely left-brained" person advocating well roundedness against someone who I presume thinks has adequate control of both portions of their brain who wants to stop requiring the basics in one field for reasons that are not clear.

[timtom]

389. Seriously. How did you deduce that I want to "stop requiring the basics in one field

for reasons that are not clear?" All I did was ask a question about the last time anyone used a quadratic equation.

You seem like an intelligent person. But you are arrogant and too full of yourself to have parsed the meaning of any of my responses accurately. And they weren't all that obtuse, either. You missed the intent and meaning, because you have some sort of agenda. You are NOT thinking clearly.

I'm now done with you.

[Pholus]

418. Yes, pseudo-outrage is usually how the humanities types I didn't like ended arguments too.

So I guess I struck a nerve. Here, let me remind you of what you said that started this thread since I misunderstood you so badly:

"I've asked several engineers over the past 20 years this question, and the response was unanimous: never!
Simple arithmetic and simple equation manipulation is plenty for 88% of us to function in society. Simple.
Simultaneous linear equations, indeed! Bah!
Revisit the classics, rather. Stress writing and reading skills. The current state of college undergraduates is pitiful in those areas."

So, "rather" seems to imply replacing 9th grade mathematics with additional classics or reading/writing classes which seems pretty ill considered to begin with just from a liberal arts point of view. You stop rote manipulation and start understanding mathematics right on quadratics and systems of equations so it seems a waste to get rid of the introduction to HOW math works.

My initial response was to cite a historian who took the position that a "classics" only education among Britain's elite caused demonstrable problems for Britain in the early part of the 20th century because they were not prepared to adequately address scientific, technical and industrial issues.

Ironically, given your complaining about a similar tactic at the bottom of the thread you ignored that and instead concentrated on my comment that basic problems in engineering DO require the quadratic equation. You accused me, falsely, of missing your point that you were merely seeking "get along" math. No, I didn't miss that point at all. MY point is that this is all you ARE getting right now.

You then threw your engineer friends under a bridge, which made them the next target because that was such an easy one. Engineers OBVIOUSLY use the quadratic equation, and frequently. Finally, you threw another demonstrably false assertion in there that "Accountants and by extension engineers" should not be trusted running a company. There were more engineering majors than Business management majors acting as CEOs in 2005. I added a new theme, which was that mathematics IS a part of a liberal education, like it or not.

Then, you realized you were out argued. I had not missed a single comment you made and threw your engineer friend example and your insinuation that "left brainers" cannot do broad thinking back at you. So you tried to rely on a weasel adjective that honestly didn't change anything (after all, it was in the context of an insult and all it modified was turning the insult into an insult that likely doesn't actually apply to any human being who ever lived -- I mean who IS medically "COMPLETELY left-brained").

I pointed out that your argument hinging on an adjective really doesn't mean anything. I then took the opportunity to throw out a blind pitch that clearly struck a nerve -- your next response was a bit indignant for what otherwise was a tangential, even wandering comment on my part that only broadly reinforced what I was saying about mathematics being relevant to a liberal arts education. Unless I hit below the belt at a vulnerability. I was not playing fair there, but you were not making sense and you had started other threads where you were saying how unfair we all were to you.

You MOST CERTAINLY did not only ask a question, you were asking why the entire subject was necessary. I hardly forgot the "rather" in your initial post after all. I'm sorry if defensiveness of a subject I love is interpreted as arrogance by you. You never adequately refuted a single thing I said. I challenged you back, and you fell back on a series of really weak rhetorical arguments about how I missed the point or a single adjective somehow made what you were saying something completely different. None of which stands up to inspection. You said what you said in the first post and everything that followed was a series of you not being able to defend your position.

[timtom]

452. Well, diatribes aside...

do you really believe that more than 22% of the population need, or should be required to study, simultaneous linear equations? Or quadratic equations, for that matter?

I understand that this is matter that is dear to you. I have my pets, as well: poetry, all kinds of music (I do mean all kinds), general semantics and neurolinguistic programming, to name a couple. And I like to catalog pop culture from the 1920's on. But, I would be hard pressed to insist that those who do not share my enthusiasm are in any way remiss.

Wait. Stop. "...you were out argued." You're right. You win. It's a win/lose proposition. You're the better human being for it. But, while you savor the thrill of victory, please take a moment and understand what I am saying to you. We all have our special talents. And, while I was a less than stellar student in math, I was able to be functional as a quality control manager of a prestress plant. I have been able to develop fairly complex spread sheets, including one to generate autocad drawings and compute the cubic yardage of each structure. As an auto-didact, I learn what I need to know in order to achieve a particular task, from designing concrete mixes with certain water/cement ratio to calculating elongation of wire strand used in inducing stress for camber in structural members.

I feel as though we are talking at cross purposes, but, you're right. I'm wrong.

You win.

[Pholus]

464. AAAAAARGH! Don't DO that! :)

I'll ignore the "better human being" talk as my argument was PURELY about what I saw as a dumbing down of mathematics requirements for high school students. And in that case, yes I want (and feel obligated) to win. I have a belief that the human condition is ultimately dependent on making sure we all have access to knowledge about the universe in which we reside.

So I believe that we're ALL better off to push high school mathematics past what the 78% will ever see. I consider it a supreme responsibility to MAKE SURE we've all seen it. How else could you make an informed decision about whether it's your future or not? I cannot accept an argument that knowledge is a waste of time for anyone -- it is part of the human experience! I may not have agreed with me at the time, but I appreciate the curriculum in high school that made me get out of my comfort zone and try new things. In fact, if it hadn't happened I wouldn't be who I was now. I'd probably be working on a farm or driving truck. No doubt I'd be happy, but I cannot believe that I'd be better off.

In 9th grade, my parents were told by my algebra teacher that I would be best kept out of any kind of mathematics.

I have a Ph.D. in physics now. Thank the maker that I was never influenced by that teacher, I stuck it out, I had inverse peer pressure (in other words, good friends who were talented at math and I wanted to fit in). I cannot believe that any bit of knowledge is incomprehensible or beyond any other person. I fought hard for every bit I got and if I wanted it, I got it. It's a question of persistence and presentation and both external and internal motivators. I love sharing it now -- in fact I teach over other things I could do because I am addicted to that feeling when someone finally "gets it" and you see them making connections and implications to the world they live in.

On some level I might be prepared to concede that not everything is everyone's cup of tea but it's a decision to be made only after you've sampled the tea. And hence my over passionate defence of the requirement.

You've done some interesting stuff and your interests are, well, strange to me. But tell me this -- can you tell me why your 1920's pop culture, or your poetry are fascinating? I would claim that you'd be remiss not to try to PLANT that seed every chance you get. Sure, people can avoid letting it take root but that is their choice -- but a passion is meant to be shared.

It's not about me winning. I want us all to win. It's merely the route we're arguing about.

[timtom]

494. I DO plant the seed.

My youngest daughter, a senior in dance at a California university, has tended that garden well. She has turned peers on to Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, is conversant with many old tunes from the thirties and forties. She recently showed a movie in her home, Cocteau's "La Belle et le Bete" and completely wowed a French guest who wondered, "How did you know about that movie? My grandmother and I used to watch it together."

I am always mentioning the radio show, "Information Please" and singing the virtues of Oscar Levant, John Kieran, Franklin P. Adams, and Clifton Fadiman. The show had many guest panelists of renown, such as Fred Allen, Boris Karloff, Clare Boothe Luce, Dorothy Parker, S. J. Perelman, Sigmund Spaeth, Rex Stout, Jan Struther, Deems Taylor, Alexander Woollcott, George S. Kaufman, Ruth Gordon, Orson Welles, John Gunther, Alban Barkley, and Wendell Willkie. There is an entire education in that radio show, alone.

My daughter just squeaked by in Algebra this semester, which means she'll graduate. And it wasn't from lack of trying.

I want to emphasize that I am largely self-taught. Oh, I got almost through my penultimate quarter in Rhetoric at the University of California, Berkeley. I also studied German, and, briefly, Linguistics. I finally got a degree in Management in 1996. But most of who I am comes from a lifetime of classical, folk, and jazz music, and great films. I was a projectionist at a small art theater in Berkeley. Lots of Fellini, Bergman, and Pietro Germi.

Thanks for changing tone. I knew you had to be a PhD.

[Pholus]

584. Sorry this is late. I'm glad to hear that.

And I do understand the reading/writing issues as well. The problems are across the board right now.

Anyway, keep up the fight! :)

[timtom]

591. Back atcha, Podnuh!

[Recursion]

531. 3/7ths of a liberal education is mathematics

IIRC, a classic liberal education consists of grammar, rhetoric, logic, arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. In the ancient times they considered music a mathematical field, which we largely don't anymore, but we now consider logic a mathematical field so it evens out.

[Recursion]

402. Tom Landry was an electrical engineer

I guess letting him run the Dallas Cowboys was a huge mistake?

I have no idea what past run-ins with engineers you have had, but this is ridiculous.

[mkultra]

472. how do you know he didnt suck at it.

[Pholus]

475. Suck or not, it changed who he was and how he thinks. nt

[Recursion]

511. Suck at EE or suck at running the Cowboys?

Check my avatar picture; I'm obviously no fan of the Cowboys, but it's hard not to put Landry in among the top 10 NFL coaches ever (and wherever you put him, Joe Gibbs goes one place higher...)

Did he suck at being an electrical engineer? He never really worked at it, but he did get a Masters in it, which is no small accomplishment (believe me); after the war he went to work for the NFL.

Yasser Arafat was an engineer too. So was Jimmy Carter. Obama has said that we need an economy with more engineers and fewer lawyers (that in part influenced my decision to get my Masters).

Tesla was an engineer, and he's the guy that "anti-left-brain" (and I know enough neuroscience to know that that distinction is nearly absurdly simplistic) people point to as a hero.

[Exilednight]

448. Atmospheric scientists and

meteorologists don't build their weather models when predicting the weather, most of them don't even learn how to build weather models (technology has pretty much made the need to know how obsolete): does that not make them real atmospheric scientists or meteorologists?

[Pholus]

480. I'd say it means they don't have the intuition to understand when their models may be lying to them.

That can have serious drawbacks since all models have limitations.

[Lucky Luciano]

500. That is the truth. Computers are great for automating a lot of stuff,

but as you say, someone who does not understand the model and all of its inner workings will not know when they are looking at garbage results.

[Exilednight]

503. Then how do you explain the greater increase in accurate

weather prediction since the use of computer induced models?

Here's just one example: Tornado warnings now have a several minute pre-warning time as opposed to what was just barely over a minute a few years ago.

[Pholus]

585. Well, isn't it true that system was set up by the people who understood it?

I guess what I'd have severe reservations personally trying to do scientific research off of a model without understanding how it works or else collaborating with an expert who can vouch for it. How could I ever fend off a skeptic whose criticism focused on the model otherwise?

People can use software without understanding for day to day tasks sure, but if you are rendering an *expert* opinion then I would expect knowledge of the inner workings. Otherwise I could just run the program myself and get the same information with the same context.

[Exilednight]

587. First off, atmospheric science and climate science are two different disciplines.

Atmospheric science is the science of what is happening now. Climate science is historical science.

Second, understanding how a model works, and designing a model are two different things. I, not being a hard science scientist of any type, understand the bare bone basics of how weather models work.

Third, why would you peer review a tornado warning? The only way it would ever be peer reviewed is if someone wrote a paper (possible thesis) about it, and even if someone writes a paper about it, no one is going to write a paper about one tornado event. Even when papers are written about Katrina, they're always comparative and no one ever mentions the weather model.

Fourth, weather models are not built in NOAA field offices, they're built by super computers in a handful of upper-echelon offices and then the results are distributed to the individual field offices.

It's like many computer programmers. Just about every programmer knows HTML, but I don't know any programmers than can program a computer in the raw code of zeros and ones.

[Pholus]

588. So we have an answer. The *scientists* work in the supercomputing centers. The rest are users.

And I bet that they *do* write peer-reviewed publications about their work.

So while your meteorologists and atmospheric scientists might be trained scientists, they are not qualified to discuss the models.

[Exilednight]

593. No, you have to have a hard science degree in either

atmospheric science or meteorology to work in a field office. Every person they hire is a scientists.

And, to be fair, I doubt hardly anyone within NOAA, except for maybe a very small handful of people, are actually trained to talk about how the computers design their models.

Just like I highly doubt there is anyone with Microsoft that can look at raw computer code and read it.

Does someone have to know how to design the model? Yes, but odds are that they are computer programmers and not weather scientists. A weather scientists probably told some computer programmers what values they needed to build proper models and then left it in the hands of the programmers to come up with a working formula.

But as far as actually needing to know how to meticulously build a weather model, I doubt anyone within NOAA could do it from scratch, any longer. Computers have allowed for greater advances and can do calculations that no human could ever do. No human that I know of can take X cubed amount of air and tell you how many water molecules, hydrogen molecules, neon molecules, etc etc are in that given cube. And to be fair, there is no reason for a scientist predicting the weather to know that. Yet, this is one of the tools to be used in predicting weather patterns by these super computers.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

518. Meteorlogists have calculus in their introductory books.

They have to use higher math in their forecasting models.

[Exilednight]

525. But most no longer learn models. Two of the best meteorology schools in the country

do not make it a requirement to learn forecast modeling.

It might of been true ten years ago, but no longer today.

[Pholus]

586. Hopefully, you mean meteorology as in the TV weather forecasters.

Otherwise, I hope that their atmospheric science work does not use the models for anything critical.

[knitter4democracy]

312. I'm a parapro, the writing coach at an alternative high school.

I use it at least once a week. All that math that my engineer dad made me take gets used every day. I'm the only parapro who can really tutor in the higher maths that our students have to know and take to graduate.

You'd be amazed at how the thinking used in that level of math is used elsewhere.

[NotThisTime]

529. I'm glad I went into the sciences, under your theory we shouldn't read either since the Kindle will

read to us now... Kids can't think logically, they're not taught logic skills, and it damn well shows... it's about time every kid had standards as simple as algebra.

[Lionel Mandrake]

66. Many people don't realize it's algebra because it isn't.

It's arithmetic that they are using.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Solving equations involves arithmetic

Developing the equation in the first place is algebra.

[Hello_Kitty]

79. Yeah, kinda like how filling my dog's bowl with kibble is animal husbandry. eom

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Not really.

:eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

83. Yes, really. You don't need to take algebra to master shopping or any basic life task.

Anymore than I had to take veterinary science to feed my dog properly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. As others have tried to tell you in this thread,

you use algebra every time you go shopping - unless you don't buy anything:)

[Hello_Kitty]

142. And as I've told all of you, I knew how to do it before I took algebra.

Hence, formal knowledge of algebra is not necessary to be a comparison shopper. Divide the weight into the cost to get the unit price. If the tag on the $39 item says 30% off whip out the calculator and multiply 39 by 0.7. All stuff you learn in basic arithmetic. Telling people they need to study algebra to shop competently is a dishonest argument. It's the kind of bullshit kids see right through.

[immoderate]

203. You can use algebra without training.

Any time you determine the amount of an unknown quantity you are using algebra. You don't have to write an equation. If you can say, "I just spent something, and I have something else left," and figure out what you started with, you've done algebra.

--imm

[Hello_Kitty]

239. Exactly my point!

The argument that formal training in algebra is necessary to figure out the best deal at the grocery store is absurd. It's definitely not a good argument for requiring it for HS graduation. If you can do basic division, you can figure out a unit price.

[immoderate]

273. You can figure it out by trial and error too.

The idea is that algebra applied to simple problems can generalize to finding solutions to more complex problems. It facilitates the process where there may have been no approach before.

I teach classes in using computers to adults, mostly in business. I often train groups in Excel. I joke about the "math teacher's revenge." How when I taught math, students finishing the course often said, "I'll never need to know this," on their way out. Then I demonstrate by putting an expression on the board: 2+3×5=____

I canvas all the students about what they think the answer should be. I get 3 or 4 different answers every time. In the 150 or so times I've done this, only once did a majority of the class get the answer right.

I've left out details, but generally a flood of recall comes over the class. From somewhere, many channel long lost rules of orders of operations. Then we go on to spreadsheet formulas, which encapsulate data and instructions in the language of algebra. That's it. Algebra is a way of expressing a problem that directs its solution.

To be able to think past grocery shopping is a good thing.

--imm

[Hello_Kitty]

281. So tell us how the students among us are supposed to figure it out

[Pholus]

324. Well, here are a few ideas:

1) Don't psych yourself out. It isn't impossible.

2) Make it relevant. Ask your teacher for uses. At the very least it makes the discussion more interesting.

3) Work at it, give it a chance. It takes time, but there is a substantial reward at the end.

[immoderate]

326. If you mean the numeric expression...

You multiply before you add.

If you are talking about general method, algebra is a way of translating word problems into mathematical symbols that can be manipulated to solve problems.

--imm

[Lucky Luciano]

336. What a joke. To graduate from high school and not know algebra is a fucking embarrassment.

No wonder the US is always ranked near the bottom of th edeveloped world in mathematical education.

If other countries can do it, then so can we.

Suck it up.

[fishbulb703]

520. +1000 nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

582. Oh, cool, so educating anyone beyond what they need to shop is a waste of time.;

That sounds about right for America - go out and consume and shop and buy! We'll let other countries make the shit for us.

[Exilednight]

458. Not every equation is an algebraic equation. Many problems are just simplified

word problems.

Attempting to figure out square footage (LxW=FTsq) of your home is not algebra. It's basic mathematics. People argue (including many math teachers) that it is an algebraic equation because L and W are not known quantities until you measure, but that's not quite true. L and W are only unknown until you measure, but once you read the tape measure they are now known quantities. Neither side multiplication sign is missing a value.

Figuring out price per pound while shopping is not algebra, either. It's simple mathematical word problem.

I have to agree with above statements, not many people use algebra on a regular basis.

Is it worth a child's time to learn algebra? Yes, the benefits outweigh the negatives; but there are other subjects that teach problem solving just as well, and sometimes better, as algebra.

[RandomThoughts]

5. Math is part of the tool kit in many things.

It can help with a structured argument or logic equations when sifting out contradictions.

I guess I am just old school debugger, was programming when a youngster on a TRS-80 so was doing algebra back in grade school, and still use it in many things.


Really need to get a compiler again.

[Tesha]

35. gcc is free and top-notch.

> Really need to get a compiler again.

gcc is free and top-notch and it has front-ends for C, C++,
Objective-C, Fortran, Java, Ada, and Go.

http://gcc.gnu.org/

If you have a Macintosh, the X-Code toolchain (IDE, compilers,
etc.) is free as well.

Tesha

[RandomThoughts]

65. Until justice is restored, not really doing much coding.

But might take a look at it. If I was to start programing with a purpose while world is still in anarchy, it would not have be best choice of direction, so correction has to occur first.

Thanks for the link, might do some coding for hobby or for thought excersise though.

So learning another compiler could be a thing to do between thinking about stuff.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

188. You got it right, RT

Learning algebra transcends math. It's a shame that that's lost on so many people. Parents should be required to learn math rather than transfer their terror onto their kids.

[Warpy]

6. I used it every day in nursing

and I use it frequently in fibre arts and cooking.

What I don't use is calculus.

[Tesha]

38. Well, you do, but you don't realize it.

Every time you (for example) brake your car to a stop
at approximately the stop line, that's the calculus at work.

And how done is your roast meat? More-or-less, it's the
time-integral of the oven temperature.

Tesha

[Lionel Mandrake]

74. Insects and birds also use calculus without realizing it.

Their flight involves the equations of fluid mechanics, which are differential equations. Them critters sure are smart.

[Nye Bevan]

7. How many people use knowledge of world history in their daily lives?

When was the last time you needed to know about the Declaration of Independence, the Holocaust, or Vietnam, to buy something in a grocery store?

[Uben]

56. What? You don't watch Jeopardy?

Da noive!

[Pholus]

479. I always wanted to see the category "Calculus"

And have simple definite integrals like

integral from 0 to x of dy.

What is "x," Alex.

Edit: Whoops, I made a definite integral and called it indefinite. -200 to Pholus and please select again...

[Lionel Mandrake]

81. Point well taken.

I do feel that everyone should know some history, even though it doesn't help them shop for groceries. I don't feel that way about algebra. I'm not sure why.

Maybe it's because history is nontechnical. It is written in plain English (or some other natural language) and does not require training in the use of arcane symbols.

[Hello_Kitty]

191. History is important to the formation of good citizens.

As for algebra, I've got nothing against it per se. I took it in 8th grade and passed. I went on to take more advanced math classes. I enjoyed them, for the most part. But I have never used any of them in my life, beyond a few occasions at work (where they would have trained me in the numerical applications had I not known them already).

[Pholus]

300. But you don't use history at the grocery store either.

And I tell you this as an avid student of the subject.

[roody]

329. Most history we teach is a lie, mainly by omission.

[Lionel Mandrake]

534. Especially US history.

The US history course that I took in high school went something like this:

A few brave souls had the courage to colonize the New World. They worked hard and prospered. When the despotic George III tried to curtail their liberties, they defended their inalienable rights and actually defeated the all powerful British Empire, like David vs. Goliath. Feeling the tug of manifest destiny, they spread across the continent. The Civil War was terrible but showed that the Union would endure. Slavery, which was morally wrong, was finally eliminated. Industrialization followed, and the progress continues to this day.

Let's see, did I leave anything out?

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

192. The daily events of our govt/nation transcend grocery shopping.

[Quantess]

279. I love how "buying something in the grocery store" is the benchmark criteria in this thread.

If you can buy something in the grocery store, hell, that means you've made it in life. :rofl:

[Lucky Luciano]

338. I know I use the Levenberg-Marquardt algorithm all the time

to solve for the optimal way to spend my money and time while grocery shopping.

Don't you?

[bettyellen]

381. this is sad. huh?

[gkhouston]

387. It's something almost all of us do regularly, and using algebra helps.

If you'd prefer, we could talk about trains traveling in opposite directions. One leaves Chicago, traveling at 75mph... :evilgrin:

[bluerum]

8. Every student in every classroom in every generation has asked the same questions.

And the teachers still teach. And the learners still learn.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. +1

[xor]

9. That;'s a good thing...

We need to stop purposely dumbing ourselves down because it's "too hard". If they learn it then they won't be terrified, right? If kids are having problems learning something, then the problem isn't what's being taught, but rather how it's being taught.

[TheDebbieDee]

25. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

"If kids are having problems learning something, then the problem isn't what's being taught, but rather how it's being taught."

I totally agree. I think that the best teachers are confined/constrained to teaching difficult topics in acceptable (but VERY confusing) ways. Sometimes the acceptable way of teaching something is not the best way to make it understood!

[DeadEyeDyck]

10. We are still far behind much of the world in math n/t

[Lionel Mandrake]

108. How should we catch up?

One way would be to compare what we do in the USA with what others do. Not all good ideas are invented here. To become winners, maybe we should imitate the winners.

I suspect our poor results have something to do with how many days per year, and how many hours per day, are spent productively in the classroom.

Another idea is that good teachers should be paid more than bad teachers. But this idea is controversial, especially here in California.

[Taverner]

11. Then we have to do a better job at TEACHING it

I got algebra until about polynomials. After that, sail, meet head.

I had some very good teachers, but I still didn't get it

Luckily, I was able to get a M.S.

How, you say? Well I took Statistics and Advanced Statistics. Got A+'s in them. This was in college and grad school.

But dog help me if I have to do Algebra, or Calculus.

[daleo]

169. How could you learn statistics without algebra or calculus?

You need those and more - linear algebra in particular.

[Taverner]

170. I just did

Theoretical numbers made no sense to me

Statistical ones did. Mean, median, mode, standard deviations, etc... just make sense.

[Pholus]

318. I can understand that a bit -- I didn't like pure math nearly as much as physics.

Seeing the application can help. However, you're still dealing with the things you complain about (even if they are used more to prove why your statistical measures are valid).

:)

[CTyankee]

321. That was my experience. I kinda liked statistics and used it constantly when

I had a career in fund-raising. At one time I did a lot of work with donor mailing lists, trying to determine the "better" list which was available. The stats were part of it, but it also depended on numerous other factors which required general knowledge and knowledge specific to a community or type of charity...

Algebra was difficult for me. I could not do subtraction without a mental or real picture of a thermometer, so I could "see" where zero was and just count up or down...but hey, I was 14 years old...

[daleo]

541. A certain amount of applied statistics is fairly visual, I suppose

I am thinking of X-Y charts, histograms, line graphs, bar charts, etc. Also, one can be quite proficient with databases and stats packages without worrying too much about the underlying linear and abstract algebra.

Still, algebra and calculus are necessary for the theoretical development, and they always lurk behind the scenes.

(Speaking as a statistical analyst who works at a university).

[jtuck004]

12. So are you suggesting we do away with it and never let people try?

because, as the post above suggests, it is a choice between

Rather more stable, higher paying jobs as scientists or engineers, vs grocery store clerk which, I think most people agree, is honorable yet may not pay enough to live on...

>>"The algebra requirement may make sense for future scientists and engineers, but how many other people use algebra in
>>their daily lives?

>>When was the last time you had to solve an algebraic equation in a grocery store?"

Would you simply waive it for everyone, they can take it if they want it?

Part of getting training in math is to help people learn to work with symbols, constants, to dissect arguments, to look for proofs.

Are those things not important, or will there be something to replace them?

Just curious...

[Lionel Mandrake]

92. No, I am not suggesting that.

I'm suggesting that algebra is not for everyone.

Those who like algebra or need it should certainly be allowed to take it. And the same goes for geometry, trigonometry, calculus, differential equations, topology, measure theory, number theory, groups, rings, modules, category theory, numerical analysis, statistics, and other courses offered in universities.

[JVS]

93. If algebra isn't for everyone then neither are high school diplomas or college admission.

Frankly, Algebra is not even a high enough requirement. Calculus should really be the math done before going to college. Of course if people want to learn that at $500/credit the university can make good money off of it.

[Lionel Mandrake]

115. I agree with half of your statement.

Admission to a college or university, with the intention of earning a bachelor's degree, is not for everyone.

But everyone who completes high school should receive a diploma, IMHO.

When I was in high school, there were vocational programs for students who had no intention to go to college. Those were fine programs.

[Occulus]

130. As a musician I had exactly zero use for algebra, calc, or trig

and it was not only a waste of my time to take them in the first place, it actually got in the way of me being a good musician. It wasn't just that I already knew I had no use for it; it was that I simply didn't "get" anything more complex than basic arithmetic in the first place, no matter how it was being taught (and I did have math teachers who knew how to teach the subject). Both the subject itself and the stresses of trying to learn and pass a subject I was unsuited to master made my success as a musician that much more difficult. One cannot perform well for an audience of hundreds when one has the knife of a tough math test the next morning hanging over one's head!

Most of the "math geeks" I knew through high school were (and are even years later!) totally mystified that there were some people who just didn't "get" math. I would have liked to send them through four years of music at the level I was learning (band, choir, jazz band, marching band, private lessons, four musicals, honors band/choir auditions, and all concerts for all ensembles) just so they could experience the abject failure of ability and humiliation of poor marks they so often seem to, as adults, grow into thinking others should experience.

None of the "math geeks" I remember from school were musicians, either. Not one of them. I don't think that's a coincidence, as the subjects involve completely different areas of the brain in the first place. Believe me- a lot of 4.0 students wouldn't be 4.0 students at all if they had to take and pass fours years of a music curriculum as a condition of high school graduation.

[JVS]

135. And how much use for a HS diploma did you have? Or for that matter a program of study that's not...

a Fine Arts degree?

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. I am surprised, as most math geeks

are good in music. They are actually related with similar brain use.

http://members.cox.net/mathmistakes/music.htm

And you still use it when you go to the supermarket. Just saying.

[daleo]

171. My son played the oboe in high school

Now he's completing a PhD in astrophysics. Math and music have gone together since the days of Pythagoras and Plato.

[JDPriestly]

185. I know lots of musicians who are math geeks.

There was Einstein -- a violinist and a physicist who used a lot of math and was married to a mathematician. Then there was Einstein's successor at Princeton -- also a physicist and violinist. Then there are people in my family who play musical instruments and are outstanding in math. My sister for one. My daughters for a couple of others.

I would say that music and math are very compatible talents.

[demwing]

290. In contrast. MOST of the math geeks I knew in high school

studied some sort of instrumental music. Your experience is yours, not everyone's, just as mine is mine.

[gkhouston]

532. Yep. I knew a guy in college who simultaneously got master's degrees in EE and violin performance.

When I was working on my geek PhD, I sang in two vocal ensembles. In one of them, I was the only person in my section not working on a graduate degree in music.

[demwing]

546. In high school I majored in Music

and minored in Math.

Played in the all state jazz band, and studied trig and calc. Took a different path in college, but knew many folks who studied geek and squeak.

[Lucky Luciano]

342. Actually a lot of mathematicians are highly skilled musicians.

There is an extremely high percentage of mathematically gifted people being gifted in music as well. This is well known.

[Recursion]

523. Yes, but few working musicians are skilled mathematicians

Venn diagram time...

[Lucky Luciano]

528. A mathematically inclined musician has a much better expected income

From going into a directly mathematical field even if they might have knocked it out of the park by going into music. Being a starving artist while one has another very valuable skill would be impressive dedication!

[proud2BlibKansan]

366. I'm married to a musician. Both my kids are musicians.

And they all have plenty of musician friends who are math geeks. One of the best guitar players we know is a math professor.

There goes your theory. :eyes:

[dana_b]

406. sorry - but I have to go with the others here

I understand that you felt that math wasn't necessary for you and that's fine. I personally never went past geometry because I just don't "get it".

Although a friend of my daughter's is really a genius. This young man can solve equations that look like some foreign script to me and he does it for fun! He also has written and performed two piano pieces that are very intricate and beautiful. He is not just proficient but really talented at playing the piano, guitar, rhythm instruments, bass and violin.

[WinkyDink]

194. I had calculus in hs before I became an English teacher, and it was good only for

cutting college algebra without missing anything.

[jtuck004]

102. So make it an elective for everyone? Would the same go for geometry,

so only basic math would be required in high school?

[Lionel Mandrake]

120. Yes.

Of course, those planning to go to college would be told the requirements of particular colleges and universities, which typically include algebra and geometry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. You realize Algebra is a pretty low requirement

to graduate from HS? Don't you?

No wonder the US keeps falling behind OTHER nations.

[Lionel Mandrake]

125. Yes and no.

Algebra was not always a requirement for HS graduation.

The requirements for college admission, on the other hand, have always included much more math than just Algebra. When I was in high school, the math requirements were algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and solid geometry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. As I said, there is a reason the US is falling behind

College bound students in other places are talking differential Calculus in their last year of HS. Algebra is JUNIOR HIGH material... why the ELM was such fun for me.

College bound students for the humanities take trig...

And that is kind of basic in other places.

No wonder we are falling behind. So what else should we complaint about? History? English Lit? Civics? (Oh wait, that is mostly gone anyway)

We already do not spend enough....

http://www.oecd.org/topic/0,3699,en_2649_37455_1_1_1_1_37455,00.html

And we are falling behind FAST.

Of course Duncan's "reforms" don't help, but the general attitude of the population, no you are not alone, don't either.

Free hint. you use algebra every day, you just don't realize it.

[Lionel Mandrake]

179. Thank you for the free hint,

but there is no such behavior as using algebra without realizing it.

When I sit down and write some equations with unknowns, and then solve for the unknowns, then perhaps (depending on the equations and the context) I am using algebra. Sometimes I visualize the equations without writing them down - then also I am using algebra. When there are no equations involved, what I am doing is not algebra.

You say algebra is junior high material? That is sort of true for the algebra required for graduation in California. The course "Algebra 1" is offered in the 9th grade, which used to be part of junior high school (grades 7-9), although the grades earned there were among those used to compute the GPA which was all-important for college admission. Nowadays kids go to middle school (grades 6-8) before going to high school (grades 9-12).

I maintain that the requirements for high school graduation are not, and should not be, the same as the requirements for college admission.

[nadinbrzezinski]

244. How far do you want to dumb the population?

should we also drop History? How about Physics? How far do you want to dumb the population? I am being quite serious here.

I am glad to see that kids are taking BASIC algebra...

And yes, you are using it. Hell, I just did... and no did not write down the equations either. But since I have to heavily modify recipes for baking... food allergies... well I do.

[Lionel Mandrake]

276. Here are my answers to your questions.

1. "Should we also drop History?"

All high schools offer history courses, and this is as it should be. I'm not sure that history should be mandatory for graduation. When I was in high school, a year of US history was required for all students. The textbook emphasized those aspects of our history that would make us feel good about being US citizens. The teacher was stupid, and the class was BORING. American history doesn't have to be like that, as I learned much later.


2. "How about Physics?"

Naturally, being a physicist, I think all high schools should offer physics. Not everyone is required to take physics, which is fine by me.


3. "How far do you want to dumb the population?"

I think that those who can profit from taking algebra, and nobody else, should take it. We can disagree about whether my radical proposal would make the population dumber, but please don't accuse me of wanting the population to be dumber. If you are so serious, why don't you make a serious effort to discuss this topic rationally and avoid unwarranted accusations?

[CTyankee]

325. What do you think of courses that are "Calculus for the Fine Arts major'?

Or something similar. So people learn different things differently. What, then, is the problem with TEACHING it differently? As long as the information gets through and can be used, I don't see a problem. A real problem for many students is the one size fits all algebra/calculus classes that everyone's brain is supposed to be able to grasp the same...and that isn't the case, obviously...

[nadinbrzezinski]

345. I had a he'll of a time with it

So having a different approach is never a bad idea.

[Hello_Kitty]

133. I can see requiring it for college bound or certain trade school tracks.

But for a general HS diploma that will enable you to get some crappy job or go to community college (where you would take it at the remedial level as a prereq to get into the college level classes) it shouldn't be necessary. Also, the military generally requires a diploma so denying someone who fails algebra one forecloses that as a possibility as well.

[Lucian]

156. Make algebra an elective.

It's not necessary unless you're going into the sciences.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. I will ask you too

how far do we need to fall behind other countries? REALLY?

Algebra is not just about you hitting your head against the wall with word problems, it is about developing critical thinking skills.

Oh and you think a plumber does not use it? How about a carpenter? Tradesmen don't use it? You sure? Hell my hubby did not go to college (well he is NOW) and guess what he used algebra every day in his Navy Career.

I am betting you are using it too. You just do not notice.

Jaysus... how far do people want to really dumb down the population? REALLY?

[Lucian]

175. Who cares about other countries?

Seriously now. Algebra is not useful, unless you're in the Sciences or in some sort of trade. Be realistic.

I'm an archaeologist and I don't fucking use it. I use geometry and statistics, but not algebra.

I don't ever have to solve proofs or solve for "X" in daily life. Why should kids? It was stressful for me to learn that useless shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

228. Guess what, linear algebra WAS what you used

as a basis for Statistics.

And why care about other countries? It is called competitiveness

Look I am a historian by trade... I am thinking of going on to take a couple Statistics courses, since what I am doing might benefit from it. And as a paramedic I used it every day... I am also aware that I use it every day in daily tasks, like even baking, Since I have to modify recipes due to food allergies.

[Lucian]

231. Yeah, I'm sure...

you used algebra for cooking. :eyes:

Competitiveness means shit. Seriously. Who cares if one country is doing better in Math? Why waste kids time making them learn something they don't need? Make algebra an elective. Everyone will be happy. Except you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

237. Given that I took algebra at the JUNIOR HIGH LEVEL

like on seventh grade... and my last year of math in HS was Trig...

Yes kids can handle it. And yes I USED IT. It is mostly to get equivalents of sugar, splenda and a few other ingredients in a regular recipe.

I also used it every day as a paramedic for medication dosages.

And competitiveness does mean jack. Are you sure you are an intellectual? Your anti intellectualism IS SHOWING. Oh wait, you are an average American.

On and my sis, her last year of HS she took Calc, and it was not an option either, it was MANDATORY. Funny thing happened on our way to General Eduction. I did not have to take physics, since my physics course in 11th grade was the equivalent, same textbook by the way, as Physics 300 at college. Oh and all that crap that I also went USELESS, I used it every time we set a rescue system.

And when I bake, guess what? That is chemistry, and if you mix the wrong household cleaning goods, you too can get mustard gas. (Ah Hazmat, another place I got to use in that case... CHEMISTRY)

In fact, I could, and damn it I am a historian, make a case that history is actually less applied from day to day by the average citizen than either Math. Physics or chemistry.

[Lucian]

238. Argument fail.

Just because I hate algebra doesn't mean I'm not an intellectual. :eyes:

If you were an intellectual, you'd see your argument is crap.

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. So since you hate it, we should scrap it

It wasn't my favorite subject in school either. In fact, I hated it. That does not mean I want to get rid of it, just because I hated it don't mean it don't belong in no fucking curriculum. It does. Or are you for dumbing the country to the point that we need to drop writing levels at the papers from the current fourth grade to third? It used to be sixth... and actually it is a nice breath of fresh air when abroad I read stories in the paper written at the HS level.

So you are the one making a specious argument. Just because you hate it, don't mean it needs to go. If that was the reasoning... let's get rid of history too. I know kids that can't stand it.

[Lucian]

274. I don't think we should scrap it.

I just don't think it should be mandatory. Make it an elective. Let those who like math take it, and allow those who hate math take something else.

[nadinbrzezinski]

347. So let's make history elective

Hell, let's make the whole school thing elective!

Jesus this is the last place I should be readying these anti-intellectual arguments...

: shakes head: no wonder kids hate this school thing...

[Lucian]

422. Argument fail.

Again.

Geez. History is also useful.

[nadinbrzezinski]

434. Nah that's the logical end of your argument

I mean some kids have a hell of a time with it...so why force them?

Anti-intellectualism is as American as pie... This is just one form.

[MrMickeysMom]

547. I'll follow your point, since it relates to how I've used it...

We're both in the medical field, and as you do, I have used and occasionally still use algebra. Back in days of older medicine, when everything wasn't "unit dosed, you actually had to calculate how to administer drugs this way, certainly respiratory drugs, which is my field.

Then, there is the understanding of medical gas. If I want to provide something in the home for a patient getting oxygen, then I had better know how to calculate total flow.

Same deal with managing patients on mechanical ventilation. If I want to calculate what my change in the ventilator settings are going to do physically to my patient, I better do an algebraic formula known as the alveolar air equation.

It's all there in medicine, and I think in order to understand some things that have to do with normal every day stuff, algebra helps a person understand the limits of what they can do in terms of exercise, weight bearing loads and the like.

Algebra is the logic of life. It's good to stretch you brain because chances are, it'll never go back to its restricted size.

[nadinbrzezinski]

562. In the good ol' days I got all my meds

in multiple dose vials.

Making mistakes could be deadly.

:-)

So we used a very simple equation. At times medical control did them with us as well. Two people as it were.

And for the record I HATED dosing PEDS.

[Lucky Luciano]

350. Geometry without algebra? How is that possible?

You use stats? How do you solve for Z/t-Scores from the data you look at? What is the area under that bell shaped curve thingy - you know 1/sqrt(2*pi*sigma)exp(-(x-mean)^2/(2*sigma^2))...isn't that some kind of integral...which therefore uses calculus which therefore uses algebra by default? Of course statistics is one of those subjects where a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing since the tools can be so badly misused if the subtleties are not well understood.

Not to mention multivariable normal distributions where you need to look at covariance matrices and then linear algebra gets dumped into the mix. Never mind the more complex distributions.

[Recursion]

410. They had geometry for millennia before there was algebra

http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/bookI/bookI.html

I do think that it's silly for high schools to teach trig before calculus; trig only makes sense once you've had calculus.

[Lucky Luciano]

415. I can safely assume that the geometry people learn today uses algebra. nt

[Recursion]

423. I disagree

Geometry is specifically not about numerical solutions to problems. Similarity and congruence are not algebraic.

[Lucky Luciano]

428. Distances are inherently geometric and often require algebra to calculate. (as just one example)

[Recursion]

432. Right, but geometry is not about finding out how many meters long the side of a triangle is

That's analytic geometry, which is a different (and more advanced) course.

Geometry is about proving that given triangle ABC and triangle DEF, AB:BC::DE:EF (or whatever). Proportions and similarity, not the actual length of the side.

[Lucky Luciano]

440. The poster above said he used geometry at work, but not algebra.

I presume that if he is using geometry at work, then stuff like distances matter a lot more than proving similarity etc. Maybe I am being presumptuous, but distances sound like something a person applying geometry cares about.

[Recursion]

403. You have 8 dollars

You want to buy some sardines. A can of sardines costs 2 dollars. How many cans can you buy? (There's no sales tax on groceries in your state.)

This is the kind of practical problem people solve every day. And guess what? It's algebra.

[Fumesucker]

13. Eh, if more Americans could do fairly basic mathematics..

Maybe they wouldn't fall for smooth talking huckster politicians peddling things like the Laffer curve quite so effin' often.

I suppose one can always dream..

"Math is hard" -Barbie

[Hello_Kitty]

42. IMHO introductory statistics and logic would be far more useful in HS than algebra.

And basic economics and finance. All of which incorporate algebraic principles but in a more meaningful way than those boring word problems in algebra class.

[Fumesucker]

48. All covered under the rubric of "fairly basic mathematics"

Unless you are interested in economics and finance they are every bit as deadly boring as algebra is if you aren't into that either, the only real exception is if you have a truly outstanding teacher who manages to make the connection between those subjects and your personal life, a vanishing rarity in these days of high stakes standardized testing (not the teachers so much as the time and freedom for them to do such bizarre things as involve their students).

I don't think you'll ever get basic logic taught in the majority of American schools, we are far too much about students doing what the fuck they're told and not questioning authority, teaching kids logic would bring them to question far too much of the pap and stuff that rhymes with pap that they're taught.

[Odin2005]

67. Eh, what is called "basic Econ" is more often than not RW Capitalist assumptions treated as fact.

I think basic practical home finance is more important.

[Fumesucker]

84. Good point about "basic Econ"..

So many RW garbage assumptions have made it to the point of unquestioned "fact" that our very discourse is irretrievably damaged by it along with the education of the young.

[Odin2005]

113. yep, it annoys me how many unjustified economic assumptions are treated as fact.

Like individuals being assumed to be rational maximizers of their own self interest. Or the assumption that scarcity is "theoretically infinite", which is merely the ideology of Consumerist Capitalism, not fact.

[Hello_Kitty]

126. That's what I meant, Odin. Personal finance.

How to balance your checking account, how interest rates work, stuff like that.

[Odin2005]

128. Ah, OK!

I was fortunate that my mom has a accounting degree, I learned all the stuff from her.

[treestar]

14. It is about learning how to learn, learning how to solve problems

The traditional subjects cover that.

And kids can't start specific career training that early.

We do use it, not directly, but how we learned it gave us some tools for what we do now.

[EFerrari]

15. I use algebra pretty much every time I go to the grocery store.

:)

[Lionel Mandrake]

94. Unless you are setting up equations with unknowns

and then solving for those unknowns, what you are doing at the grocery store is arithmetic, not algebra.

[JVS]

97. "How much" is probably the unknown.

Since price is listed

[EFerrari]

103. That's right. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

327. The unknown is the answer

3+2 = x is algebra

[EFerrari]

468. Techinically, sure. But just taking his requirement of 2 unknowns,

if I have to figure out how many 1lb boxes sugar I need to bake 5 dozen cookies that take 1/2 lb per dozen and how much they will cost to be within my $25 cash on hand, that's algebra.

$25 > = 2(5X)(Y), where x is 1/2 lbs of sugar and where y is the cost of the 1 lb box of sugar.

Is that right? Great, now I'm hungry. lol

[EFerrari]

459. Just about every grocery list is a number of unknowns that sum or multiply to your budget.

You solve for unknowns all the time. It's likely that you do it so quickly, you don't notice.

The funny thing is that I thought algebra was difficult and hopeless in high school -- it was the only subject I've ever almost flunked. It wasn't until I went back to school in my 20s that I realized it was simple, orderly & elegant. lol

[sofa king]

465. Uh, no.

You have twenty dollars to spend on five items at the store. The four items you already have will cost $15.99.

How much money do you have left to spend on the last item?

That's an algebra question, even if someone who sucks at algebra can figure it out.

______________________________

As a guy who rides hours and hours at a time on a moped across ridiculous distances in crappy weather, I find myself constantly cursing my inability to perform useful calculus in my head. I need to be able to guess things such as how long before my exposed skin begins to succumb to frostbite as the temperature drops after dusk and the headwind increases, how the level in my nearly empty fuel tank is going to change as I climb the next hill, how fuel consumption will change on those hills, and so on.

I couldn't do it at all if I couldn't do comparatively simple algebra like knowing my remaining range, computing my fuel economy, matching my nearly nonexistent funds against the very extant distances I have to travel, and so on. Once I can do it in my head, I don't really count it as algebra, either, but it is.

[EFerrari]

469. Maybe this is a consequence of credit cards

and people not having to estimate their purchases very much any more.

[sofa king]

487. Yeah, maybe so.

I hadn't thought about that. I've been living below the poverty line for years now, knowing that a handful of change is all the difference between me and sleeping with the bears.

That's what separates us from the bears: algebra.

[EFerrari]

493. LOL. My uncle was an engineer who had wanted to be a mathematician.

When I was a teenager, he used to say "algebra is beautiful" and I thought he was crazy. Until I lucked into a great algebra teacher as a young adult and after a while, I knew he'd been right.

When we started out as a young family, I had to figure out how to make $60 last a week for everything. And, lean times recurred often enough that the habit of figuring never went away.

[sofa king]

510. It really is beautiful, when it saves my butt.

The classic example in my life is when I took my moped to a giant concert in the middle of nowhere 200 miles away from home, never found my friends who were going to pay my way, and had to spend almost every penny I had to get in.

But was I worried? No, because I already had a "lifeboat" plan calculated. I calculated that with a handful of change plus one gallon in the can and a wisp of fuel in the tank, that would be just enough to get me home even if it rained, which drops my fuel economy. Okay, maybe I was a little worried, because if I miscalculated, I would find myself in West Virginia, again to sleep with the bears.

Three days later, starving and soaking wet, I made it home through 13 hours of rain, with 27 cents left in my pocket and maybe five miles' range left in the tank. All thanks to that beautiful math.

[EFerrari]

514. I hope you taped that 27 cents up on the frig.

:applause:

[WinkyDink]

196. How?

[stevenleser]

367. The various responses not understanding what you mean are very disturbing. n/t

[woo me with science]

16. Sigh. nt

[Pancho Sanza]

29. I knew I had this little news item archived somewhere:

A public school teacher was arrested today at John F. Kennedy International Airport as he attempted to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a protractor, a set square, a slide rule, and a calculator.

At a morning press conference, the Attorney General said he believes the man is a member of the notorious Al-gebra movement. He did not identify the man, who has been charged by the FBI with carrying weapons of math instruction.

'Al-Gebra is a problem for us,' the Attorney General said. 'They desire solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret code names like 'x' and 'y' and refer to themselves as 'unknowns,' but we have determined they belong to a common denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country.

As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, 'There are 3 sides to every triangle.

When asked to comment on the arrest, President George Bush said, 'If God had wanted us to have better Weapons of Math Instruction, He would have given us more fingers............and toes.'

White House aides told reporters they could not recall a more intelligent or profound statement by the President.

[Lionel Mandrake]

127. Heh heh.

I don't recall ANY intelligent or profound statement by W.

[snagglepuss]

131. My entire life has been spent wondering why f was at x in the first place.

Now I know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

264. Welcome to DU and that was HYSTERICALLY funny

thanks

[Lucky Luciano]

362. The only relevant response to this is:

:spank: :spank: :spank: !!

[femmocrat]

17. My theory about high school students and higher mathematics:

It keeps their minds off sex.

I took math through Algebra 2 in 11th grade. Imagine the liberation of not having to take math my senior year! LOL

[Lionel Mandrake]

51. Bertrand Russell had a different take on this.

Referring to students, Russell said: "Let them copulate, so they can attend to their mathematics." ;-)

[rug]

18. That's an interesring hypotenuse.

[JVS]

19. Unrec. The requirement is reasonable, kowtowing to morons who are afraid of math is wrong.

[Pancho Sanza]

24. Thank you, I meet way too many Americans who think education is for losers.

A truer irony is hard to imagine.

[Sheepshank]

20. I use it all the time in comparison shopping

signs with 70% off the original purchase price vs. another store offering the same item for an additional 30% off the already discounted sales price.

Solving for x is on the line every day when trying to get the deal.

How about buying 16 Oz of peanut butter at the local store, vs the 62 oz jar...which is the better per ounce deal. Sure some stores break it down for those that don't know simple math solving for 'x' but not all of them.

This Summer, I want to build planter boxes for square yard planting. Deciding on sizes for the garden, accounting for the width of the rail road ties I'll be using, and the amount of space needed between each box, are all calculated. Attempting to put algebraic equasions into real life scenarios helps it make a lot more sense.

Being able to use critical thinking, even if the stepping stones part of that applicaton comes from some basic math, learned concepts, is not a bad thing.

[Hello_Kitty]

27. I have never once used algebra to determine unit price. All you need is basic division. eom

[Obamanaut]

44. You don't solve for "X", the unknown unit price? nt

[Hello_Kitty]

76. Technically, I suppose, yes.

But when comparing the unit cost of 2 items, where that is not provided already on the shelf, I simply whip out my calculator and perform 2 simple divisions. I could do this long before I took algebra.

As I pointed out to someone else on this thread, there are reasonable arguments for requiring algebra to graduate but "needing it for basic life tasks" is not among them.

[WinkyDink]

202. No, actually. That information is ALWAYS spelled out on the store tag. EXAMPLE:

[Codeine]

213. Always? I run a retail grocery store

and our tags do not always contain that information.

[WinkyDink]

221. The chains do.

I knew someone would argue the point.

[JVS]

217. I've noticed that sometimes it's incorrect or that they use inconsistent units.

Like a 12 pack of burritos lists the price per burrito but the individual one says per oz.

[gkhouston]

363. Inconsistent units is very common, in my experience, and usually a flag that

"the bargain" is not the best buy.

[Obamanaut]

307. Actually, not "always". And, consider solvint for 'x' if you need to pour

a concrete slab, or arrive at a total of board feet for your new deck.

One should 'always' avoid absolutes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Knowing what numbers to plug into that basic division problem is algebra

So yes, you do use it. You are just so talented at using it you don't realize you are using it. :)

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pancho Sanza]

21. If you care about how much you pay for groceries, you should know basic algebra

you want the most for your money, you're looking at the 42 ounce item for $3.22 and the 26 ounce size for $2.39...without algebra you can't make the right choice!

[Hello_Kitty]

26. Why do you need algebra for that?

All you need is a calculator that does division.

The 42 oz item is 7.6 cents per ounce and the 26 oz one is 9.19 cents. And unit prices are typically listed on the shelf under the price. So no math is necessary at all.

[JVS]

33. Because you need to be able to compare several items at once.

You need to make sure that all the items you buy in the week add up to less than or equal to your food budget.
You need to make sure that these items provide enough calories.
You need to make sure that your assortment of items don't leave you with a nutritional deficiency.
If you are interested in actually getting the most for your money, you need to do a detailed analysis.

[Hello_Kitty]

39. Everything you cited can be accomplished with simple arithmetic.

Adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing.

[JVS]

41. That's because systems of linear equations are done with simple arithmetic.

Although there are morons out there who think it's some kind of voodoo that they should be exempt from.

[Hello_Kitty]

46. those are the vast majority of equations most people will ever do.

You do not need to have gotten a passing grade in algebra to make good decisions at the supermarket.

And BTW, many people are afraid of numbers and vulnerable to scams and huckster politicians precisely because of the use of jargon like "systems of linear equations" used to explain what are really simple concepts. It's not anti-intellectual to ask that people please use plain language to describe things to people who don't understand them yet.

[JVS]

63. A non-systematic approach to a math problem may yield a solution.

A student who has mastered the systematic approach used to solve such a problem is able to point out not just a solution, but all solutions. There is also the possibility of finding an optimum solution. For doing this two things are necessary: the arithmetic to solve thing and the ability to think abstractly about the problem and organize the data of the particular problem. Since the arithmetic is already easy, it shouldn't be any problem that this is a requirement.

[Retrograde]

101. Which is....algebra!

(at least algebra in its simpler form - we don't need to go into commutation and groups and rings and the other things I've long forgotten).

What you're doing is solving for X, where X * 64 = $3.24 or whatever. You're just so used to it that you don't think it's anything out of the ordinary.

Do kids still do those problems where Mr. Grocer buys peanuts at $.59 a pound, cashews at $1.25 a pound and walnuts at $.79 a pound and wants to figure out what proportions to use to sell mixed nuts at $.99 a pound? My 7th grade math book was full of those.

[JVS]

105. It was decided to charge $1.25 a pound for the mixed nuts and decrease the proportion of cashews.

This way management didn't need to hire candidates who actually know math. ;-)

[WinkyDink]

206. Nobody in real life does those problems long-hand. And no, arithmetic is NOT "algebra."

[virgogal]

82. If I had to go through all of that when I was shopping for 6 kids

and 2 adults I'd jump off a bridge.

[WinkyDink]

204. I actually don't "need" to do at least half of your list. In any case, addition and subtraction

suffice.

[Pancho Sanza]

45. But it IS algebra. You are working out an unknown "x", the price per unit.

The (yes, very basic algebraic expression) is x = c/o if c is cents and o is ounces. When you do that division,
you are solving the equation and doing nothing other than than basic algebra!

[Hello_Kitty]

54. Yet you can get to that, and I always do, without the 'x = c/o" entering into my mind.

I distinctly remember being taught this stuff in 5th grade arithmetic.

[Pancho Sanza]

69. Okay, fine...so what do you imagine algebra actually IS?

You use it without apparently knowing you do...you must have some notion of how it's very different from your own ability to manipulate numbers - ?

[WinkyDink]

207. IOW, using algebra is intuitive, so why require it as a school subject for graduation?

[Lionel Mandrake]

225. That is a difficult question, but I'll give it a shot.

What we are talking about is not all of algebra, but high-school algebra. It is the study of equations and inequalities involving numbers, letters, binary operations (+, -, . , /), exponents, and logarithms. A little bit of set theory is included. The numbers may be integers or real numbers. The letters may stand for parameters or unknowns. Not included AFAIK are complex numbers, trig functions, non-commutative operations (like the vector cross product), or symbolic logic. A fair amount of graphing (analytic geometry lite) is included. There is considerable emphasis on setting up the equations or inequalities, not just on solving them. Students are tested on their ability to find the equations or inequalities corresponding to a given "word problem".

[WinkyDink]

205. See photo below. That info is always posted by the store (do you look at the shelves?):

[Hello_Kitty]

22. Kids have dropped out because of it. That doesn't help anyone.

Very often they can learn math later at community college where the classes are geared for remediation.

[catzies]

23. Moreover, the state university systems require it prior to admission

If you graduated high school before 1986 the CSU systems requires you take it in community college. I need it to graduate right now with my AA. I took it in the spring and withdrew when I realized I was failing (was already taking 3 other classes). Took it again in the fall as my one and only class and changed from a letter grade to pass/fail. I failed and thus didn't graduate. I'm 48 and am sick of algebra,took it twice already this year but will be forced to do it again until I pass it. :cry:

[Hello_Kitty]

28. Does the community college have tutors available?

One on one tutoring really helped me with math.

[catzies]

40. Yes, and they're good and I used them once already. I have to try again so back to them I go

Thanks. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. I had to do the ELM too

and Math in another language is a &(^&^*. I found that the Shaums Guide was great.

[catzies]

346. I can't even imagine. ;) I'll look up the Shaums Guide, thanks. n/t

[Lucky Luciano]

365. Schaumms is great. I highly recommend it to anyone. Great bang for the buck too. nt

[DemoTex]

30. It is 60 miles to my destination and I'm driving a constant 30 mph.

How long will it take to get there? This is a classic algebra problem that is nearly transparent in its simplicity. Almost any literate person solves this distance-time-rate problem in their head without even realizing they are using the algebraic formula D=RT to solve for T (time): T=D/R, or 60m/30mph= 2 hours.

Fer gawdsake, don't dumb down this country any more. That is playing into the hands of those that want an uneducated electorate.

[WinkyDink]

210. IOW, we can solve certain practical mathematical problems WITHOUT passing algebra.

[InvisibleTouch]

31. Even if you will never use it again after high school...

...I think it's good exercise for the brain, at a time in development when brains need exercise. Some students *will* need it as they continue their studies, so it's obviously important for them - but it's also important for those who won't use it, just to stretch those mental muscles. They might forget the details a few years later (I couldn't tell you the Pythagorean theorem today off the top of my head if my life depended on it), but it helps them grasp other concepts and solve problems in their own areas of study.

As an example, I've forgotten pretty much all of my 4 years of high school Latin after 20+ years, but I found that it enhanced my reading and writing skills in English, and that has stayed with me forever after.

[WinkyDink]

211. "Math as brain exercise" is a myth.

[Lucky Luciano]

369. LOL!

:spray:

Your post is disingenuous at best.

Logic for proofs is the ultimate brain exercise.

[stevenleser]

370. Says what source(s) ? n/t

[Quantess]

32. I would say first year algebra is a great minimum requirement.

For kids who have a hard time with math, just make the modified algebra class 3 times as slow paced as the mainstream.

Algebra is not just for scientists and engineers. Construction workers use it all the time. Occasionally there are mundane uses for algebra, just puttering around the house, just living your life.

[Hello_Kitty]

50. I have yet to be provided one mundane use for algebra that wouldn't be covered by basic arithmetic.

[Quantess]

59. It's the unknown factor

x in simple algebraic equations, that people may use so intuitively that they don't even realize it's alegbra.

[Hello_Kitty]

64. That a lot of us learned to do before we took algebra class.

I mean, seriously, you need to take algebra to determine the unit price of something or to make change? Bullshit. Look, there are some reasonable arguments for making algebra a graduation requirement but "needing it for basic life tasks" is not among them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. If I cut that tree down, will it hit my house?

Funniest home videos sold a lot of soap by showing videos of "idiots" who couldn't do that calculation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. You decide to buy 4 bananas and they cost 29 cents each

ALGEBRA is what you are doing when you understand that you need to multiply the unit price (29 cents) by the number of bananas you are buying (4) in order to find out if you can afford to buy them with the $2 you have in your wallet.

BASIC ARITHMETIC is what you are using when you multiply the .29 times 4 and get $1.16.

ALGEBRA is what you use to decide if you have enough money.

When you subtract $1.16 from $2.00, that's BASIC ARITHMETIC.

In other words, you can't do the BASIC ARITHMETIC without at least a rudimentary understanding of ALGEBRA.

[tallahasseedem]

161. Thank you for this answer!

This topic, well...it's unreal.

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. I'm sitting here LMAO

[JVS]

184. I'm shaking my head.

This is pathetic.

[Telly Savalas]

316. Yeah, this is just astonishing.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the large number of posters here touting ignorance as a virtue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

349. Anti- intellectualism is as American as apple pie, unfortunately

And a few folks should know better.

[catzies]

504. Exactly! I'm a bookeeper and 98% of my daily math to do my job is strictly basic arithmetic.

It's why I didn't want to go on to an accounting degree -- the great paradox of my life is that I do arithmetic for a living but mathematics gives me hell.

[Fearless]

34. It builds the mental processes for other tasks you will have to do. Unrec. n/t

[harun]

36. I used the Pyhagorean theorem yesterday doing carpentry.

But I would like to see them create modules for all these subjects available via video on the web. That way if the teacher is crap the parents can go online and learn it with their kids and not be subject to one teachers interpretation.

[Forkboy]

37. Here's a tip: Don't insult your Algebra teacher while he's dating your mother.

:)

[Quantess]

277. I think that was a Gilmore Girls episode.

Oh, never mind, he was an English teacher. :)

[IrishEyes]

47. Good

That is the least they should have to know. I remember in my high school you learned algebra and geometry. If you wanted you could also take trigonometry and calculus your junior and senior year. You had to at least take geometry no matter who you were. Algebra is a basic skill you need in life. We should not dumb down our schools anymore. Math is really not that scary.

[Bobbieo]

49. It took 3 attempts for me to pass it.and I graduated with a 3.5 average

out of a possible 4.0. At the time, no one knew about dyslexia.

[Edweird]

52. I used Pythagorean daily when I was checking my buildings for 'square'.

Additionally calculating volume for a concrete pour requires Geometry as well - concrete is expensive.

[Uben]

53. You're required to learn algebra for one reason.....

.....so you can help your kids with their homework!

[davidinalameda]

55. I got a B in my algebra class

I'm taking stats next semester

I'm dreading pre-calc and calc

[Confusious]

519. Calc isn't too bad

Calc II is a nightmare. Not because it's difficult, because of the number of things you have to remember.

[TexasObserver]

57. Solving for X is a part of every day life, even grocery shopping.

Simply making a personal monthly budget uses algebra.

If I make Y each month and my bills are Z each month, X is how much I have left over after paying those bills (or how much I'm coming up short each month).

Or how about balancing a checkbook, or even understanding how it works?

Understanding simple algebra is a life skill that everyone needs to be a competent adult. It's hardly the stuff of scientists and engineers, who use considerably more complicated formulas than "how much per unit am I paying for this house, or car, or case of cola?"

[JVS]

73. Even something as mundane as getting drunk requires algebra.

How many 12 and 16 oz bottles do I need to total 100 oz. of beer?
If I have .75 liters of rum and 2 12 oz cans of coke, do I need to buy more coke or should I just switch to doubles.
How many White Russians can I make with the resources on hand? Can I make more Black Russians?
Is the 1.75 liter bottle's savings worth the inability to buy as much mixer considering what I have on hand?

[WinkyDink]

212. Fine. That's about Week One of Algebra One. Enough.

[hobbit709]

58. Try graduating in Germany or Austria before you bitch about algebra

[Lionel Mandrake]

158. That might be a bit of a problem

weil ich nur ein Bisschen Deutsch kann.

Seriously, the schools in those countries are quite different from ours. If a student plans to go to a university, he must first attend a Gymnasium, which is sort of like a combination of high school and community college. There is also a rigorous exit exam, called the Abitur. Maybe that is what you were referring to.

[WinkyDink]

223. Are we losing jobs to Germany and Austria?

[hobbit709]

294. What does that have to do with graduation requirements?

[Pholus]

302. No, but we run a 700 billion dollar trade deficit, they run a 300 billion dollar trade surplus.

Mostly high tech and precision engineering equipment. I guess they are doing something better than us, no?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. I believed as you when I graduated HS

which for the record was in another country where the math was a little more advanced at HS.

As an EMT I used Algebra every time I needed to calculate percentiles. It was a simple algebraic equation that we used.

Carpenters use things like area calculations all the time.

Hell, my husband used to be an ANAV (Assistant Navigator) for the United States Navy... and this SEMESTER in college he had an easy time with some of the work... guess what it was? What he did for 20 years. Did I mention that was algebra?

You use it more than you think...

Oh and I'd be remiss not to mention PHYSICS every time we set up a rope rescue system... or had to fight a fire. Did I mention Chemistry? It was and still is mighty useful with HAZMAT. Hell, I can also tell you why it is a bad idea to mix certain household cleaners. Yes, you too can get mustard gas if you try hard enough. (Or simply you have no clue what you are doing)

[Odin2005]

62. There are a lot of things you don't NEED to learn to function, but that is no excuse not to learn.

Most Americans know jack squat about History or Geography, now people are arguing that it's OK to know jack shit about higher math and science, too?

Oh, and basic Algebra is NOT hard, unless you have an intellectual disability or Dyscalculia (the math equivalent of Dyslexia), the notion that it is hard is the result of indoctrination by an anti-intellectual culture, and, for girls, a sexist bias. Which is why I find some math books for high school students called "Math Doesn't Suck" refreshing.

[tammywammy]

85. I also think having a good teacher makes a world of difference

I had an awful algebra II teacher in high school. Just awful, but I passed. When I first entered in college I was scared of college algebra and dropped it a couple of times. Most of it was my lack of work ethic to complete assignments. When I took it again a couple of years ago, I aced it with a 99, my professor was great and I was actually applying myself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. Good

The critical thinking skills developed when learning algebra will serve those kids for the rest of their lives.

[tammywammy]

78. I had to take two years of algebra to graduate high school

Algebra and statistics are a requirement for my major now.

You use algebra more than you think you do.

Edited to add: Also, I think basic knowledge of algebra comes in handy when trying to work with formulas in Excel. Heck for a college student to make an easy Excel spreadsheet with their grades to find out what they need on that last assignment to get an A or just pass the class is pretty important. Or knowing the basic formula to work that out long hand.

[gkhouston]

232. You have no idea how helpful it is for Excel.

Years ago, I stopped by a co-workers' office on the way to lunch. I held (and hold) her in high regard, but she's never taken much in the way of mathematics and she was wrapped around the axle trying to write a complicated formula. She got all twisted up trying to tell me about it. I said, "Stop. Tell me, one thing at a time, in English, what has to be true for such-and-such to happen." When expressed that way, she knew exactly what to tell me. I said, "Go away for 5 minutes." She popped downstairs to the deli to get her lunch and by the time she came back up I had a working formula for her.

I don't use calculus of any type in my daily life anymore, but geometry and basic algebra? You betcha.

[snappyturtle]

87. Great! To answer your questions, here's mine:

How many high school level students know, without a doubt, their future field of endeavor?

I hope the requirements are equally strenuous in language arts, social sciences, science and literature.

[GoCubsGo]

96. And, let me add...

How many are going to conduct some home improvement project that requires buying adequate amounts of paint, molding, fencing, designing a flower bed, laying sod? Or, deciding that they really love some craft like quilting? They use algebra and geometry far more than people realize.

[JVS]

99. Given this thread, I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of people are fudging it.

[etherealtruth]

88. I use it every day

I "officially" use it at work ... but I'm not talking about that .... I use it at the grocery store, I use it while budgeting our household expenses (projecting heating costs, cooling costs etc)... I also think algebra is fun.

I use very little from the calc classes I had ...but, I recognize the need to understand it for work.

[Lionel Mandrake]

146. I also think algebra is fun.

And the same goes for other kinds of math. I was always good at math.

On the other hand, I recognize that some people are not good at math. They can, with difficulty, learn how to compare prices and balance their checkbooks. In order to do these things, they need only learn arithmetic. Forcing them to study algebra is absurd. It's like forcing someone who is tone-deaf to take singing lessons.

[etherealtruth]

154. I partially agree

Algebra I and II classes certainly is not be for everyone ... but algebraic concepts are important and can be incorporated into basic math classes.

I'm the mother of three ... my eldest son was "fine" in math (took 2 HS algebra classes and probably averaged a "B") .... my daughter , a high school senior is a little math whiz ... my 14 year old son ... I can't imagine how he will pass algebra (Michigan has a HS algebra requirement as well)

[GoCubsGo]

90. People are "terrified of the algebra requirement"?

You're fucking kidding me, right? Doing algebra does not take a rocket scientist. And, it's not like they are not going to be TAUGHT the damn subject before they're tested on it. The Idiocracy is here.

[Odin2005]

114. People, especially women, have been culturally brainwashed into hating math.

Larry Summers once said, as president of Harvard, that women are inferior at math. :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

249. DIng, DIng, Ding

but I have noticed this with my second grade nephew... he already hates it. It is the thing geeks do.

So it is not just girls.

[Statistical]

91. The larger purpose of math is concrete thinking, solid logic, and problem solving.

These elements are soft skills (there is no class on logic but ability to solve increasingly more complex math problems build logic skills) and are essential for high paying, high tech jobs. The exact kind of jobs we want to keep in the US.

I rarely use higher level math in my job as a software developer however I can say without a doubt that the skills obtained expanding my mind with higher mathematical (Algebra - Calculus in HS and 2 more years of Calc + 2 years post Calc in College) concepts are invaluable in developing good software solutions.

It seems a dichotomy that people want advanced, high tech, well paying jobs and at the same thing think we don't need "hard" subjects like math and hard sciences because "we don't use it at the grocery store". If your skills are limited to what is used in a grocery store then likely you will be working in a grocery store.

I fear for the next generation. Children in other countries are gaining ground as our children are falling further behind. The US isn't special, the US isn't magical, the US doesn't have a "lock" on high paying jobs. They must be earned.

[tammywammy]

95. And shouldn't school BE hard?

Shouldn't there be a challenge? Or are parents and parts of society thinking that since little Johnny and Jane are having trouble with algebra we should remove that requirement? No wonder this country is becoming so stupid.

[GoCubsGo]

98. THANK YOU!!!!!

I couldn't have said it better.

[Fumesucker]

106. School *is* hard..

If you're not very bright it's hard to learn everything they want you to learn..

If you're brighter than average it's mind numbingly stultifying to sit in a class and hear the same stuff repeated over and over and over again for the less bright who're having problems grasping it.

It's hard to put up with all the social bullshit, cliques and bullying and "zero tolerance" rules that are designed and implemented by zero brains administrators.

I could go on but I suspect you may have caught my drift by now, school is hard for many of the wrong reasons.

[Statistical]

109. So we need to change school but removing the elements which require thinking isn't the solution. n/t

[tammywammy]

111. +1

The OP said that algebra is "terrifying" that's not a reason to exclude the algebra requirements from graduating.

[Fumesucker]

112. Thinking is the last thing our politicians want our kids to learn in school..

Hence the recent emphasis on standardized high stakes testing, no thinking required, just regurgitation of memorized "facts".

We have several words and phrases to describe those students who can think independently in our schools, "troublemaker" is one of the mildest of those.

[Odin2005]

119. I was "insubordinate" My offense? Writing a paper supporting pot legalization.

My paper was failed and I was given In-School Suspension for "encouraging drug use and breaking the law". :eyes:

the ISS was dropped when my mom threatened legal action.

[Fumesucker]

124. Yep, insubordinate is another term for independent thinkers..

Interesting how changing the law becomes equal to breaking the law.

Good on your mom for standing up for you.

[Odin2005]

116. Haven't you gotten the memo? anything that hurts a students "self-esteem" is bad.

So classes have to be dumbed down so the kids' precious egos are not hurt. :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

118. People have struggled with math classes for years. This isn't a new phenomena.

Not everyone's brain is designed for complicated math and it's cruel to deny someone a high school diploma for not passing algebra if they've done well in all their other subjects.

Seriously, forget algebra, have you seen some examples of the writing of high school graduates and college students these days? I'm a lot more worried about kids graduating from high school not knowing how to read basic instructions or form a coherent sentence than I am about their ability to do quadratic equations.

[tammywammy]

121. Writing and math are both important aspects of a high school education

And no, if a student cannot pass basic algebra they should not get to graduate. That's a basic requirement and removing it as such only leads to further dumbing down of schools.

[Hello_Kitty]

129. Why high school for algebra? Why not junior high? Why not elementary?

The reason I ask is because I know many people who didn't take or didn't pass algebra in HS who went on to pass it in community college or master several of its concepts in trade school. I don't think you should be able to graduate if you can't do basic arithmetic, though.

[Sheepshank]

149. algebraic, geometry, statistical math is useless without the basics.

if elementary school completes the process of teaching and thoroughly covering aspects of addition, and subtraction and multiplication and division (the basics)...then they SHOULD move on to algebra.

So while your facetious question was asked, I think the concept actually has merit.

To imply that 88% of the population should be content to stop wondering and growing and imagining and evaluating the world at an elementary school level is quite mind boggling. I'd hope that is NOT what we are teaching our kids in school. To limit learning because it is or isn't useful in a grocery store? wow, how mind numbing.

[Hello_Kitty]

168. That is NOT what I'm saying.

And if you're concerned about limiting learning then I'd say not letting people graduate high school because they didn't pass algebra, thus foreclosing the possibility of community college or trade school or the military is about the worst thing you can do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

181. Algebraic principles ARE taught in elementary school

[Hello_Kitty]

183. Then passing algebra in 8th grade should be no trouble at all!

Let's make it a requirement for entering high school, shall we? :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

208. It is in my school district

[Hello_Kitty]

219. If your district is succeeding at that, good on you.

I passed Algebra in 8th grade and Algebra II in 9th. Then again, I attended K-12 in an excellent public school system. OTOH algebra wasn't a requirement to graduate HS in my unified county district. They had an alternative "math skills for independent living" or some such course that you could take if math wasn't your forte. A lot of my classmates opted for that. It probably incorporated enough important algebraic concepts to prepare the students for the workforce or community college.

And as I posted downthread, states are adding more onerous math requirements as they are slashing funding. If a state is requiring students pass algebra but not providing funding to hire more math teachers or tutors then it's an unfunded mandate and practically guaranteeing a higher dropout rate. Private prisons are standing by to absorb more unemployable high school dropouts!

[proud2BlibKansan]

222. Are you sure you passed?

If I was your teacher, I'd be changing your grade after this conversation.

[Hello_Kitty]

235. Got Bs in both.

I must tell you that I appreciate the posts you do on education and the war on teachers on DU and that is not going to change because of your unkindness to me here. I do respect your opinion on this subject too, though I happen to disagree with it.

[tallahasseedem]

390. LOL!

:rofl:

[Pholus]

214. Watching my 11 yo's public school math -- he GETS systems of eqns. for homework.

Just without the formalism -- I *love* the intuitive way they're setting things up. And BTW he's NOT in the advanced class at school.

[jberryhill]

304. When was the last time you needed to write a Haiku?

[JDPriestly]

193. If you can't understand algebra, you surely will not be able to write

anything that makes sense.

The ability to write is not independent of the ability to think. And algebra is one of the classes in which you learn to think in the abstract -- a capacity that a person must develop in order to write intelligently.

Algebra enables us to understand other complex problems that involve logic and relationships. Geometry is equally important. It helps us understand and think about spatial relationships. We all need to learn and practice abstract thinking.

I think that algebra should be required for high school graduation because it serves us in our daily lives. A big problem in our country is that Americans do not make good financial decisions because they can't comprehend the relationships between numbers and can't think in abstract terms.

A high school diploma is not a gift or a right. It must be earned.

Those who do not develop their math skills including geometry and algebra will be disadvantaged in life. People with strong math skills tend to make more money than others. That is yet another reason for encouraging young people to study algebra and geometry. Your boss loves it when you can actually solve math problems in your head. It is especially important in business.

[Hello_Kitty]

252. Are you suggesting there have been no good writers who didn't take algebra?

Really? Really?

Those who do not develop their math skills including geometry and algebra will be disadvantaged in life. People with strong math skills tend to make more money than others. That is yet another reason for encouraging young people to study algebra and geometry. Your boss loves it when you can actually solve math problems in your head. It is especially important in business.

Those who do not graduate from high school, who are then unable to attend community college or trade school or join the military, will be disadvantaged in life. Students who fail algebra are significantly more likely to drop out of high school, especially when it's a graduation requirement.

[JDPriestly]

292. If you want to think clearly and write clearly, you should learn

algebra. I like to read clearly written, logical thoughts.

Algebra is training for the mind.

People cannot learn algebra because they are impatient and resent having to focus their minds on something abstract. To write well you must be able to express the visceral in language, but you must also be patient and able to deal with the abstract and focus on things you may not enjoy. It's called self-discipline, and learning algebra teaches you self-discipline. I think it should be a prerequisite for a high school diploma.

[Lionel Mandrake]

283. Does that mean we shouldn't read Hesiod, Aeschylus,

Euripides, or Sophocles? They couldn't understand algebra, because it hadn't been invented yet.

[JDPriestly]

291. You should not limit your reading to Hesiod, Aeschylus,

Euripides, or Sophocles. You should go way beyond those authors.

[Lionel Mandrake]

348. Okay, how about Shakespeare?

He probably never learned algebra, but what he wrote made a lot of sense. How do you explain that?

[JDPriestly]

558. Actually, I like Shakespeare. But again, it is not enough for

our time. You need to read beyond that -- at least through the French Enlightenment authors, hopefully way beyond.

[Posteritatis]

332. I've seen people who do well in other subjects but tanked basic writing repeatedly

Is it "cruel" to deny them permission to graduate if they're good at math but functionally illiterate?

Or is it only fairly basic math skills that become optional the instant a bit of challenge starts to melt some snowflakes?

Let's hear a list of which subjects should be made optional. What else should a basic high school graduate not be required to have an understanding of?

[Lucky Luciano]

377. Agreed..more kids should be sent to graduate from vocational schools.

Graduating from high school should also mean that one can put together a coherent sentence without spelling errors (typos are ok on message boards by the way! Genuine misspellings are bad though).

[Lucky Luciano]

374. ...and the quote of the day goes to....Statistical

"If your skills are limited to what is used in a grocery store then likely you will be working in a grocery store."

:spray: !!

[seabeyond]

104. texas you have to have four years math. alg, alg II, geometry and calculus. 4 yrs

science including physics and chemistry. i didn't have to take any of that. 2 yrs math. 2 yrs science. ya.... i get concerned. thankfully my kids can do it. i wonder about the kids that will have a tougher time and how this encourages kids to graduate.

[WinkyDink]

220. Texans need calculus to get out of high school? Is that part of knowing the Earth was created 7,000

years ago?

[seabeyond]

240. fundamentalists are not only in texas and fundamentalism is not a part of the academic curriculum in

texas public schools. in case you are not merely joking or dissing. but unaware. they need four years of each core class. math. science. english. and history. that is what it worked out for my son, anyway

[0rganism]

122. we need a nat'l requirement for knowing how to calculate exponentials

The exponential function is probably far more important to our overall welfare than the quadratic equation, but it's lumped into precalculus so a lot of high school grads will never see how it works - not in high school, anyway.

If you have a credit card with a 25% APR, how long does it take a $10000 debt to become a $20000 debt? How long would it take to pay it off at a rate of $100/month? (hehe)

If your city counselman expressed a desire for 5% annual population growth and his wish came true, how many years would it take for your hometown to have as many people as LA does today? (LA residents excluded, of course)

These kinds of questions are both relevant and answerable, you can get good approximations without a computer, but you have to know where to start. And as a result, a lot of folks won't hesitate to spend big money on a high-interest credit card or blink an eye when they hear a local political goon suggesting something as ludicrous in the long term as 5% annual growth.

Of course, it's much easier to set up the parameters in your mind if you've got a background in algebra...

[no_hypocrisy]

123. The principles and skills of algebra extend beyond numbers and math.

It's about problem-solving, using limited information and extrapolating the rest to find an answer. You are forced to think, to figure out what must be correct. And it's following directions; if you omit a step, you can't understand the problem and thus find the answer.

Algebra is problem-solving without the emotion. The numbers are just the tools of the trade to do it.

With a teacher who truly understands the principles, algebra can be learned by ANYONE.

[niceypoo]

132. They need it for college

If kids go into college not knowing algebra they have to play catchup for a year just to get to a class that actually counts towards their degree.

[Heddi]

134. I'm a nurse, I use Algebra every day. But I didn't know I was going to be a nurse when I was 16

I didn't know i was going to be a nurse until I went to college for it when I was 28.

I had to take Algebra (and stats, and calculus I&II), but it was easier for me having had a basis for it in High School.

Just because someone doesn't use it in "every day life" (which is absolutely not the case for algebra, geometry, some calculus, and some statistics) isn't an excuse not to learn it. Especially since what we want to be when we're 15 or 17 isn't usually what we end up being when we're 21 or 28 or 35.

Hard sciences, like biology and chemistry are probably 'not used in every day life" as well, but they're typically required for high school graduation. So is English Lit, and a year or 2 of foreign language. Do we sit down and do comparisons of 2 different literary styles every day? Probably not, but that doesn't mean it's not a useful thing for people to be learning.

So maybe I don't go through my day and have an equal percentage of things I do "in my every day life" from biology, chemistry, PE, English Lit, English Composition, World History, US History, Algebra I & II, Geometry, Physical Science, Geography, French I & French II, Accounting (those are all the classes I could think of on the spot that I took in high school). However, the TOTALITY of those classes help me be a very functional member of society. I left high school in 1994 with a basic understanding of the world around me--how it works on many levels, how to get from one place to another, how long it will take me to get there, etc.

So maybe 18% of my day isn't spent DIRECTLY USING what I learned in English Lit, but can anyone say that such a class is completely wasted? That it is a COMPLETE waste of time to take a class like that, that NOTHING AT ALL will come out of taking the class? I don't think that's the case. If nothing else, I became more literate because of it. I was forced to read books I never would have read otherwise. Is that a bad thing?

And all the people who say they don't use Algebra all have made points that they DO use Algebra without even knowing it. Even if you THINK you're doing "basic arithmetic", it's basic because it was ingrained at a young age and HAS become a part of daily life.

Not just figuring out how much peanut butter per oz is, but if I have to get to a town X miles away and I drive X mph, how long will it take me to get there? If the hurricane is moving at X mph, how long until it makes landfall? How long will it affect the town I live in if it continues to move at X mph and is X miles wide? How long will the eye of the storm last if it's X miles wide and moving at X mph.

That shirt is 30% off the regular price. How much is the shirt? What if another shirt on another rack is $14 after the 30% discount---am I getting a better deal for this one or that one?

-----
I think that the idea that 15 and 16 year olds can opt out of a class like Algebra because of the mindset "Nuh Uh I dun wanna learn math it sucks you learn it" is just ridiculous. We have HS graduation requirements for a reason. My thought is that many people think they know what they want to do, or are going to do for the rest of their lives when they are 16 (My nephew is going to be a Basketball Star slash Rapper! In his 15 year old mind, school is never something he's going to need!). But I think most of us here on DU have had quite a few occupational changes since we were 15, or 16, or maybe our ideas of what we wanted to do evolved with age.

What a deterrent to a 25 year old going to college for the first time if he had no basis for any higher math beyond basic arithmetic. We'd have even fewer college graduates than we do now.

Give students the basics to function in life. If their life goes as they say it will, then they will NEVER EVER EVER use such things as algebra and biology and geography EVER EVER AT ANY POINT IN THEIR LIFE :eyes:. However, for the other 99.9999% of them, they WILL use such things at some point in their life (and generally without even knowing that they're using it), and will be much more functional in society and be able to positively contribute to society because of it.

[Yo_Mama]

137. Huh?

Everyone uses algebra in their daily life. Especially now when more people have less money! Algebra is strongly related to fractions.

At the grocery store when you figure out whether something is a good deal or not you would use it. Differently sized containers of the same or equivalent at different prices.

Probably when paying bills when money is short people use it. Is it going to cost you more to skimp on this one or that one?

It's not that complex and it is very useful, and I have taken the CA high school graduation test, and it is not that difficult.

It is also of great use when you are being fed political nonsense. Total innumeracy is probably a recipe for an ignorant population, and a democratic republic needs citizens who are capable of assessing the basics on their own.

[Cleita]

139. I took algebra and graduated from high school and

I'm really dumb when it comes to math. Elementary algebra is fairly easy. As a bookkeeper I used it a lot when I worked at that profession. So it's not just for scientists and engineers.

[JDPriestly]

198. A person in sales needs to be able to calculate math very quickly.

Algebra helps a person identify just what the nature of a calculation is and how to get to the answer very quickly. If you are going to read a financial report or sell widgets, you need to have facility and familiarity with algebra. You need to quickly see mistakes on a spread sheet. Lots of people work in business and use these skills very often. What if you are charged with doing a complex budget for your boss? You need to be able to look at the results of your spread sheet and analyze whether maybe you entered some of the numbers wrong.

Knowledge of math and facility not just with arithmetic but mathematical concepts gives people confidence in many workplaces.

If you are good at math AND good with people, you will go far.

Think about real estate agents. They have to be quick with math if they want to do well.

[TransitJohn]

144. It's called education.

It's supposed to provide the youth of our nation a good foundation for whatever they want to study later in life. High school isn't supposed to crank out good little conformist worker bees who only know how to push fucking buttons. High school is supposed to encourage the pursuit of lifelong learning.

[JDPriestly]

145. We all use the concepts that we learn in algebra.

As a matter of fact, one of the big problems in our country is that Americans cannot understand economics or make good financial decisions because they can't comprehend the relationships between numbers and can't think in abstract terms.

Algebra is a basic cognitive skill that enables us to understand other complex problems that involve logical thinking and figuring out relationships.

Geometry is equally important. We all need to learn and practice abstract thinking.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[a la izquierda]

148. i'm a historian...

i never, ever use algebra.
now geometry...that's the stuff.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. Now if you were an econ historian I am betting you would

that and statistics. (Which you need to have a good basis in algebra)

Yes, all that new history and economic history. I am toying with the idea of taking a statistics course... longe duree...

[a la izquierda]

426. I hate econ history...

give me political, military, social and cultural history any day of the week. Economic history makes me want to barf.

[nadinbrzezinski]

457. There you go, but they use it all the time

I am doing intellectual right now, and will pick a stats workbook. I fear I'll need it.

[Lucky Luciano]

505. Be sure to grab a good book on probability too.

Stats is to probability as science is to math. In other words statistics applies the results of probability. I tend to think that using stats is hard unless one has a masters level understanding at least in the subject. I would recommend brushing up on multivariable calculus, linear algebra to know what is really going on. Since it is being done more as a hobby, learning the background material (the calculus/lin algebra etc) should be fun as well. Good brain exercise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

536. Well I guess I should go take a few math

classes, calc... well I will look at the Shaums college guides. They have never failed me before. And yes, take my hubby's algebra books and damn it refresh.

[Lionel Mandrake]

556. Stats is to probability as science is to math.

Well said. There are books and courses on statistics that are light on probability, and they suck.

A good book on probability is An Introduction to Probability Theory and Its Applications, Vol. 1, by William Feller. Any edition will do.

[Lucky Luciano]

583. Feller is an all around probability superstar.

I wish I knew much more probability. I am still learning a lot after spending much of my time on Grothendieck style algebraic geometry.

[Lionel Mandrake]

589. I once went to a talk by Grothendieck.

His talk had something to do with algebraic topology. I didn't understand much of it. He mentioned that he would give another talk about the Vietnam war, which he famously opposed.

Grothendieck is said to be a genius. His books are huge and intimidating.

Feller is more accessible and down to earth, especially in vol. 1. Volume 2 uses measure theory a la Kolmogorov.

Another good book is Statistical Independence in Probability, Analysis and Number Theory, by Marc Kac. What's fascinating to me about this book is that it shows you can do probability and statistics on the integers. Measure theory doesn't apply to the integers. What would Kolmogorov have said about that?

[a la izquierda]

555. fortunately for me...

studying indigenous peoples doesn't require a whole lot of math...but i do have to dabble in economics when i lecture. i can't ignore it all together.

[struggle4progress]

151. I don't understand the hostility towards math: learning it develops many useful skills

It teaches one how to reason closely and accurately from definitions
It teaches one how to use abstract symbols carefully and to advantage
It teaches one how to strip away inessential matters to get to the essential issues
It teaches one how to concentrate, tolerate frustration, and persist intellectually
It teaches one how to express ideas concisely and precisely

Learning mathematics significantly improved my written English

[Hello_Kitty]

160. I don't understand the inability to realize that not everyone has the same ability to do math. eom

[Codeine]

166. Math is just following instructions, at least at this level.

If you can connect numbered dots you have the intellectual capacity to do most high school maths. We've taught kids that math is a terrifying and mysterious force to be feared -- it's really just doing things in a prescribed order and examining the problem to plug the right numbers into the right places.

[struggle4progress]

250. It's often taught that way but I consider that a grave pedagogical error

Some plug-and-chug skills are necessary, but the plug-and-chug can all be motivated -- and the kids can often figure out for themselves why it works, with a bit of careful guidance

As a general rule, rote rules are a curiosity killer

[Lionel Mandrake]

282. I agree.

Plug-and-chug skills were characteristic of math before the Greeks. The Greeks cared about "why it works". Their answer to the "why" question was to invent pure mathematics, with its emphasis on formal proof.

When I was in high school, the geometry that was taught was mostly that of Euclid. I'm not sure what goes on nowadays, but there is a lot to be said for Euclid (or even better: Hilbert's book on the foundations of geometry).

Rote rules are what we were taught in elementary school. I didn't enjoy arithmetic then. Now I find elementary number theory (the "why" of arithmetic) very enjoyable.

High school students don't find it remarkable that the Euclidean algorithm works, or that every positive integer has a unique factorization into prime powers, but mathematicians do.

[struggle4progress]

173. While it is true that people's interests and abilities differ, most of what

is discussed in this thread is accessible to anyone of ordinary intelligence, if they will simply pay attention and use language carefully. Many people do find the material boring, and therefore do not concentrate adequately on simple matters -- but I've heard the excuse I can't do this too often from people who were perfectly capable of doing what they were asked to do

[Confusious]

527. Not everyboy has the same ability to do history

I slept through class and got a B. My friend struggled to get a C.

Should we not have history? I struggled through English. I did well in all my other classes, but English. Should I be denied a diploma?

[WinkyDink]

215. (We English types like end punctuation.)

[struggle4progress]

246. do we? i always admired hemingway's advice to remove anything

that was unnecessary -- and a period at the end of a paragraph seems superfluous to me: if there's no colon there to indicate a coming list, then the end of the paragraph informs the reader pretty well that the sentence is done

then, again, my idea of good prose was shaped by faulkner: if you waste your time trying to find the periods in some of his sentences, you may miss most the story

:D

[Codeine]

152. It teaches you to think.

It's a new area of the brain to work, exercise, and build. Young plastic minds get new synapses firing and new neural connections made. They learn how to tackle a new kind of intellectual puzzle with a new set of rules and a unique set of tools.

That's as god-damned valuable as it gets.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lucian]

162. There's other ways to think otther than algebra.

I can use critical thinking without using algebra.

[Codeine]

165. so? Did it break your brain to learn a new skill?

every single problem we solve, every tiny new skill we learn and technique we perfect builds our mind. This is the basis of intellectual growth. Limiting yourself only to what is immediately useful in daily life is a recipe for stultifying mediocrity.

[Lucian]

172. No.

But it was agonizing and stressful to learn. And in the end, I haven't used it. It's useless. Unless you're in the sciences where it's useful.

It should be an elective. Not something students have to take.

[Codeine]

176. Agonizing and stressful is good.

Building your mental fitness hurts just as much and takes just as much effort as building physical fitness.

"No pain, no gain" is just as true in the brain as in the gym.

[Lucian]

180. I skated by with a D-.

It wasn't good.

[Lionel Mandrake]

243. "No pain, no gain" is just as false in the brain

as in the gym. Pain is your body's way of telling you that something is wrong. If your muscles are sore after a workout, there is something wrong with your workout.

Some stress is necessary, but it should be a good kind of stress, like the burn on that last repetition of your exercise.

[Lucian]

155. Algebra is useless unless you're going into the sciences.

I haven't used algebra since high school. Those who teach it say it's necessary, but it's not.

That's one requirement we should get rid of, IMO, and make an elective.

[Codeine]

164. who cares if it's "necessary" or not?

It teaches people to think. It taxes their brain. Works their widdle minds.

Learning about the Diet of Worms or the Defenestration of Prague hasn't proven terribly useful in my daily life, but I'm glad I learned about them. The stages of cellular mitosis rarely come up in my retail gig, but is that an excuse to refuse an area of education?

[Hello_Kitty]

187. The problem is making it a requirement for a HS diploma

Thus foreclosing the possibility of community college (where you could take remedial math) or trade school or the military. Guess which socio-economic groups are disproportionately adversely affected by this policy? Do you think the schools those kids attend are adequately funded to ensure that all of them are proficient in algebra by 12th grade?

[Pholus]

305. Apparently, logic is also useless? As long as we're cutting, I haven't used music/art either.

As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread -- perhaps the HS diploma is being watered down so that everyone can have one.

[jberryhill]

306. And you knew what your life was going to be when you were 12?

Oddly, I was required in school to write poetry.

I did not become a poet.

[stevenleser]

398. That is so untrue and wrong its hard to know where to start

The basic problem with your premise is this. If you fail German, then you will not get a job that requires German and thus you will likely not see the reason to learn German.

Because you are limited in your math skills, you have likely been steered away from jobs that require them, even non science jobs that require them and thus you have no idea why they are important to have. We can keep going.

A person who decides not to learn history very well will also wonder why it is important to know history while they are bagging groceries at the local supermarket. Lets be less mean, even if they are a nuclear scientist, they may not see the need for history. Should we stop teaching it or making it a school requirement?

[aikoaiko]

157. Algebra is a type of critical thinking and a worthwhile skill to develop

Algebra is really a very basic type of thinking.

[Codeine]

174. If we set the intellectual bar that low we shouldn't be surprised

by the results.

Seriously -- "Math is scary!" is not the underpinning of a successful educational system.

[Speck Tater]

177. What a ridiculous requirement! It's far better that we keep the peasants ignorant. nt

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

182. Are you for reals?

Firstly, whether you use math or not later in life is irrelevant. Algebra teaches you how to think. That's essential when problem solving regardless of whether it's an equation or not.

Second, good grief, if you think scientists and engineers are the only ones who need to know math, you obviously live in a bubble. Even my sister, who hates looking at numbers, encounters them during the course of her work. She sends it to me and I explain what all the numbers mean. She never learned math. It's pretty obvious, too. She's not a good problem solver and never has learned to think outside the box.

Aside from having a really *scary* name, there's nothing special about the Pythagorean theorem. It's the simplest thing you've mentioned.

So what does "know" mean? You have to have a passing grade? a D and you're good? That'll work.
:thumbsup:

[Lionel Mandrake]

287. So what does "know" mean?

It means pass a course and pass a test to graduate. AFAIK a D is a passing grade, as far as the course is concerned. I could be wrong about this. The D wouldn't help a student get admitted to a university, but for some students that doesn't matter.

[jasperilla]

186. Algebra teaches logical thinking, I think it should be a requirement n/t

[applegrove]

189. At least if kids have all their math at graduation then some of them may go into the sciences. They

said somewhere that alot of the people who used to go into the sciences now go into banking or investment banking because of the greater salary. At least if you graduate with good math skills you may have learnt to enjoy that part of science. I think it is a good idea.

[SoCalDem]

190. Even if you plan to be a "lowly carpenter" you better know math

If you plan to cook, you need to know math..if you sew, you need math..

I know that "math" is a wee bit different from the dreaded algebra & geometry, but why now teach kids as MUCH as possible, and then let them sort out what they "need" from what they don't need ...later..

Math also trains your brain to think outside the box, so to speak, and that ability transfers to other endeavors.

I loathed geometry, but I took it anyway, and surprisingly, I have had occasion to "use" it without ever realizing I was "using" it...

It's always better to have it & not need it, than to need it & not even know it...until you waste expensive materials on a jobsite & get fired for it..

[WinkyDink]

199. it is a myth that "math trains your brain to think". LITERATURE does that.

Mathematics makes one learn formulae. There are only so many Einsteins.

[SoCalDem]

200. A well rounded person knows about math AND literature

and science and geography and , and ,and, and....

As a child , you cannot possibly know where you will end up in life..

I hated math and was only so-so...but I ended up being a bookkeeper:rofl:.

Job openings take us in directions we never planned.

In our current world, knowing as much as possible is the only real hope for young people.. Literature in a big part of expanding their horizons, but so are the other subjects..

[WinkyDink]

218. I agree. I are one. However, to keep students from graduating because of algebra?

Not one person posting here has made the argument that algebra is good for anything other than one's own benefit (shopping, driving).

The Liberal Arts, OTOH, are for one's own AND society's benefit, because to become more versed in history and the human condition (art, literature, poetry) is a step toward bettering the latter.

[SoCalDem]

248. If you teach algebra in middle school (like most do here)

then progress through Algebra 2 and then geometry , it can all be "done" by 10th grade..give the damned test THEN, while it's fresh..and for the ones who don't master it, they would still have 2 more years to get it:).

I wonder how many kids in other countries are complaining about having to learn something that's "too hard"...or that they might not use someday..

Kids who don't plan to or want to graduate will always be with us, and no matter what teachers/parents try, they will defy them & drop out anyway.. We need to find an equilibrium, and quit racing to the lowest of standards so that the least capable students "can pass the test"... Tutor the least capable to bring them UP...not dumb down the rest..

[nadinbrzezinski]

361. We did... Same gripes

But we still did it...

:-)

My niece...oy she and her friends also gripe, but they still do it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

358. What do you think an Econ historian will use?

What about the sociologist? The Political scientists? Oh yeah statistics. Algebra is the basis for them.

[dana_b]

446. wow - I am thankful for the engineers

and architects and construction workers who know more than basic math because they are doing me, you and everyone else in society a service by knowing how to build and create safe and sound structures and infrastructure.

Thank you Jonas Salk for knowing more than basic math!! Without him, polio may still be a scourge on society.

I could go on but you get the point, I believe. I do agree that liberal arts are beneficial for society but to say that algebra is not is a false argument.

[Lionel Mandrake]

247. Really? I thought it was Latin.

The idea that some particular subject trains the brain to think has cropped up many times. No evidence supports any of these claims.

[nadinbrzezinski]

355. Two main different areas of the brain.

A well rounded person knows both.

[dana_b]

442. I like this reasoning

"I know that "math" is a wee bit different from the dreaded algebra & geometry, but why now teach kids as MUCH as possible, and then let them sort out what they "need" from what they don't need ...later.."

I also HATED geometry and algebra but took them anyway. I only got a "C" in geometry but at least I tried to do it.
Little did I know that I would become a nurse in later years and am thankful that I could do basic algebra. It made the drug calculations, drip rates, etc. that much easier to understand. Give kids the tools they MAY need for a later date so they can be successful in their CHOSEN careers... instead of having to settle for a job that they don't like/want.

[WinkyDink]

195. People can use calculators for math.

[Telly Savalas]

320. Then you advocate scrapping basic arithmetic from the 2nd grade curriculum?

[Hello_Kitty]

197. Kids who struggle with algebra are four times more likely to drop out.

With the concern over algebra success in American schools comes its relationship to high school dropout rates. Los Angeles Unified School District superintendent Roy Romer has stated that algebra is a trigger for more dropouts than any other subject, and a 2006 study at Florida International University found that students who failed Algebra 1 were four times more likely to drop out of high school than those who passed the course.

The trend now is that more states are requiring algebra in high school: More than 20 states require high school algebra for a diploma and/or hold students accountable for algebraic concepts on high school exit exams, according to the Education Commission of the States. Another nine states have policies that will go into effect with future graduating classes. In fact, the latest trend is for states to be adding Algebra II as a requirement for a diploma.

http://www.districtadministration.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1581

The article has some good ideas about ways to address the problem. My big concern now is that schools are adding more rigorous math requirements just as they are decreasing funding due to budget constraints. For the most part we are talking about unfunded mandates. This will hurt poor students disproportionately, as more of them will be unable to obtain a HS diploma and thus ineligible for community college, trade schools, or the military.

[Malikshah]

201. Looks like someone didn't do well on their exams

Really? Someone is advocating the further downgrading of the US education system?

Really???

For shame

[Codeine]

209. I've heard reading is hard as well. And composition.

Hell, potty training can be a bear. Let it all go!

[Lucian]

227. Reading is a requirement.

We all read. Algebra, on the other hand, isn't a requirement. Don't need it.

[WinkyDink]

216. I did extremely well, and I don't agree with the requirement.

[Hello_Kitty]

226. Same here.

What I see on this thread is a lot of unexamined privilege - people for whom algebra came easy mostly because of the environment in which they were raised. Imagine being a poor ESL student and trying to master algebra.

[Lucian]

229. Yeah, it's a shame to get rid of something we don't need.

:eyes:

[Lionel Mandrake]

253. Non sequitur. Nor is it true.

I got 800 on the math portion of the SAT. That was 53 years ago.

Furthermore, I am not advocating the further downgrading of the US education system.

Please stop making false accusations.

[Malikshah]

323. You post implicitly questions the standards of the education system in CA

To say it does not is to ignore the wording used in the OP, the nature of this board and discussions that take place here, and the results.

If one wants to discuss educational practices, asking the inane question regarding algebra is not the most effective way.


What your OP has effectively done has created the standard questioning of the usefulness of education and basic standards in all fields (e.g., the World History question)

The importance of education is not in its extrinsic values (the facts you learn, the formulas, the grades you earn, etc). Although these extrinsic values do play a role and should not be downplayed in the slightest, the intrinsic value of education--gained through a strong, wide-ranging, curriculum---is found in the journey one goes through. The skills of critical reasoning, thinking, writing. The ability to express oneself in oral and written form effectively in a rhetorical sense or even an artistic one.

The ability to determine the nature of one's task, devise a solution, and carry it out successfully.

Algebra, chemistry, art, history, biology, physics, rhetoric, and composition are just a few of the tools one uses on this life long journey.


That is worth discussing and debating in an effective manner.

The OP does none of that; it simply uses the tiresome old "when are we going to use this" line that even a first grade will blush at from recognition.

[Lionel Mandrake]

533. What's this, yet another accusation?

First you accused me of "advocating the further downgrading of the US education system".

Of course I denied that ridiculous accusation.

Now it seems that my post "implicitly questions the standards of the education system in CA".

That is a new and different accusation, which I don't deny. In fact, I'll make it explicit.

For the record: I question the standards of the education system in CA.

I think the standards could be improved. Is that a terrible thing to say?

The rest of your post consists of platitudes, except the last line, which is just a verbal snarl.

[Malikshah]

574. Next time, state that. It might be best to read and revise before posting.

I was simply stating the fact in my first response, and then reiterated in my second, that your OP can be interpreted as advocating for the further downgrading of the US education system.

The fact that this thread has gone on and on -- and the discussions herein -- should be clear by now.

[Pholus]

224. Hmmm, along with lower standards I find OTHER signs of the decline of America at the dollar store.

A very nice basic scientific calculator -- does everything a student needs though the end an undergraduate math degree.

Cost: $1.00

The box was months old but none had sold yet. I bought one and studied it. It was obviously not built with *American* students in mind. It merely is functional instead of flashy. Lord knows it doesn't surf the web or text so why would a the current generation of American students even be interested in it?

A pity too.

Wonder which country WILL fill our shoes as the idea source for the world once we're through sabotaging ourselves through our fear of having to apply ourselves and appreciate the discoveries that took centuries to develop.

[Lindsey]

234. Where I went to school in TX., Algebra was required if you wanted

to go to college. Then, when I went to college (my major was Interdisciplinary Studies) I took Pre-Algebra and was able to go straight from there to Statistics. I definitely agree that we can't dumb-down our educational system. I use statistics in my job often, and I very well may use Algebra w/o even knowing it.

[Hello_Kitty]

236. That is perfectly reasonable.

Algebra as a requirement if you want to go to a 4 year college after HS. But denying people diplomas because of algebra means they won't be able to go to community college or trade school or join the military.

[Pholus]

295. What you're really saying is that too many paths REQUIRE a high school diploma.

My father had an eighth grade education. It was sufficient to get into the workforce and serve the country in WW II. Honestly, he knew algebra as well -- when I had problems in 9th grade he could help me -- so the math requirements seem to have been much higher back then compared to today. I am consistently amazed when my students cannot solve "a x = b" for x. And they are in a 4 year college. Another bit of history. An important equation in astronomy is Hubble's law: "v = HR" I had an undergraduate ask me what the thing in the middle was. Yes, the "=" sign. And this person was considered educated.

Perhaps we should return to the model where a high school diploma is not a guaranteed thing but instead a mark of achievement. In 1940, only 15% of the population had that credential. Today it is more like 75%. Yet in general, the degree seems to mean a lot less.

Trade schools and the military don't really need high school diplomas. OTOH, a community college is a prerequisite to a liberal arts education. You had better bone up on algebra if you want to take that path.

That would improve the educational system immensely. Imagine what high school would be like if it wasn't prison for kids who DON'T want to be there.

Wow, I seem to be wearing my "elitist" hat today.

[TalkingDog]

230. If you cook you use algebra every day

especially if you are doubling or halving recipes.

If you measure glaze recipes you use algebra if (as happened to me once, somebody forgets to give you one of the ingredient measures but) you know the total weight of the powdered material.

If you make visual art and are trying to determine proportions you use algebra.

You just aren't using it as a written formula.

[Hello_Kitty]

242. And plenty of people who never passed algebra in K-12 are able to do those things.

So formal instruction in the mathematical theory of algebra is a requirement to get a HS diploma because, why?

[TalkingDog]

285. It's not. I didn't pass algebra

I took it. Twice.

Like you I thought, I'll never use this. So each time they stuck me in there, I refused. Though by my test scores I was in the 89 percentile for math.

I got to college and realized they actually did require it. So I gutted it out, took college algebra and passed with a B average.

What I later realized is, it wasn't so much the formulas that were useful, but the type of critical thinking it instilled.

Math is a language. A very useful language. It gives people another way to think about problems that they might not be able to solve by other means.

It would be like you saying: I'll never diagram a sentence so why should I learn spelling and grammar?. And yet you don't spell like a Freeper. Your ideas are coherent, you sentence structure and grammar, sound.

These are tools, math and grammar. Very useful tools. And while I agree that there are better (less painful) ways to teach them so that people understand them within a life and living context (I'll never use this.... ) they are necessary.

Count it as a very sucky rite of passage.

[LucySky]

233. You mentioned the Pythagorean theorem in your OP.

This is really geometry, rather than algebra. However, the Pythagorean theorem is an ESSENTIAL concept to understand while performing a wide variety of tasks.

The Pythagorean theorem is used in many everyday applications such as fabric work, crafts, and carpentry.

It is really just the application of the 3-4-5 triangle, and is used when the "squaring up" of something is required.

In addition, most people use algebra, either intuitively or directly, in many applications.

[Lionel Mandrake]

257. Yes, the Pythagorean theorem is really geometry,

but it is also part of the course labelled Algebra I in California, and it crops up in the "algebra" portion of the test that all HS students must pass to graduate.

There are other Pythagorean triplets besides (3,4,5), for example, (5,12,13) and (8,15,17). But these are probably not used much in everyday applications.

[Lucky Luciano]

386. Algebra is but written geometry; geometry is but drawn algebra. —Sophie Germain nt

Sophie Germain was one of the top mathematicians in her day (early 19th century). One of the few successful female mathematicians of the time.

[PADemD]

245. Algebra was fun!

We had the same math teacher for 7th, 8th, and 9th grade; and he introduced algebra in 7th grade because we were bored with the basic math review. So I had 4 years of algebra (including 11th grade), and some other students took algebra III/trig in their senior year. It's not difficult to learn if you have a good teacher. What needs to be taught is the practical side of algebra; show the students where they can use it in everyday situations.

[Imperialism Inc.]

251. This thread is scary. I didn't expect to see so many DUers who are against

the most basic of math. Yikes.

Ok here is an example of using algebra in daily life. Though I have about 7 different internet connected devices in my house I am an old fogy when it comes to cell phones. I use a pay by the minute plan. My options are something like this.

18 cents per minute and no monthly fee OR a $8.00 monthly fee and 12 cents per minute. How many minutes do I have to talk per month before it makes sense to go with the 2nd plan? Let's use algebra to find the break even point.

18x = 800 + 12x ==>> 6x = 800 or x = 133.33 minutes. So if I use 134 minutes per month I am better off with the 2nd plan. Less than that I am better off with the first. I fall in the less than category so I went with the first plan.

[nadinbrzezinski]

255. Well I use it for baking as I have to modify recipes

the Gluten Free Flour is not precisely a 1:1 ratio... with some of the recipes, and it varies from recipe to recipe...

And yes you gave a far better example, but this is part and parcel of American anti intellectualism. That book learnin' ain't good you know...

[Imperialism Inc.]

256. Another example.

I worked in construction as an estimator for several years. Both as an estimator and a carpenter you often have to figure out how long a sloped roof rafter should be based only on the width of the house and the pitch the roof is supposed to be. That requires trig (the Pythagorean theorem). I can't tell you how many phone calls I would have been saved if the carpenters knew how to do the math when the span, or pitch were not in the printed book of lengths carpenters often use. I mean someone has to know that stuff in order to make the book right? The carpenters are using the Pythagorean theorem whether they realize it or not. This thread seems to be arguing for a permanent divide between those who know things and those who are at the mercy of their "betters" and that we should decide who is in which group in high school! Want to just be a dummy? OK fine, no algebra for you.

[Lionel Mandrake]

260. No algebra for you?

I never suggested that you or anyone else should be forbidden to learn algebra (or geometry, which is where the Pythagorean theorem belongs). If it is useful or interesting to you, then by all means learn it.

[Imperialism Inc.]

261. And you want high school kids , many of whom hate all subjects, to decide

in 9th grade whether they will need algebra and geometry? LOL!!! Good one.

[Lionel Mandrake]

267. Not exactly.

Decisions about what courses to take should involve the kid, the parents or guardians, and a counselor. They should all be willing to negotiate.

I have never met a kid who hates all subjects equally. It is seldom a good idea to force a kid to take the subject he hates most.

[nadinbrzezinski]

271. That is a funny concept, really funny indeed

I had no choice. Electives... you kid me right?

My first year of junior high.

Algebra I.
Chemistry I
Physics I
Biology I
History
Spanish
English I
PE

And since we were in a private school we had even more to the curriculum

Hebrew

Bible Studies... no, not in the way you think it, We read it trying to figure out how much of actual history there was in it. Trust me, nothing like reading the old testament in the original hebrew and aramaic. It's very useful these days, when going head to head with bible thumpers who mostly have never read it, in English. Now if there was a class I'd drop, maybe.

Jewish History...

You know we had an elective.

Typing
Technical drawing
Computer science
And I have no memory what was the fourth elective. I took technical drawing where we used geometry.

Perhaps that experience of actually having to go to a school where electives were not really a thing until the last year of HS... I really cannot get this dumbing down of the US. I really can't. But it is something to behold, idiocracy is NOT a comedy.

Now second and third year of Junior High (High school was three years, while JH was three years) read that, it was the same... just with two and three.

Hell I took Latin too in High School... didn't hurt me.

But then again people knew that school was important. No wonder when I got EMT trainees we had no issue in getting to them with basic concepts like homeostasis. And you know what, as a kid I whined. Math did NOT come easy to me. Hell, I needed tutors and everything... and that silly algebra came quite handy with CHEMISTRY and PHYSICS too. And yes, it wasn't easy. Hell, I FLUNKED my second year of HIGH SCHOOL Physics and had to take summer school. And... reality is that kids can do this. We should not continue to dumb them down just because parents really could not hack it. And yes, this is one reason why the US is really going down and why the American people cannot comprehend the most basic of economics... something that yes, uses math.

And I used to say the same thing. WHY THE HELL DO I NEED THIS? I mean it was HARD.

Then I started using it to calculate dosages, or loads on rope systems. I started USING all that knowledge in a more PRACTICAL way. It got to the point that I could do those things IN MY HEAD... and to this day I can tell you what is the load ratio on a static line, at 11 mm (Ideal 1;800 or above)... as well as what is the efficiency loss in a 4:1 mechanical advantage system, (anywhere from 3-10 percent depending on environmental conditions). All that involves physics, and ALGEBRA... well you need to know the data such as what is the load ratio of that rope... with a normal weight such as your basket stretcher, patient weight, gear weight... and why you need to have a second line as backup and prusik breaks, or mechanical breaks. All that IS algebra and physics, as you do not have a perfect 4:1 system (loss of efficiency) due to FRICTION.

Yep that was what all that shit that I saw no use for suddenly became like important and shit.

Then of course there is the wonderful world of chemistry and hazmat, or confined space... again many of the formulas rely on that shit. Oh and I went to college to get a degree in HISTORY, not the sciences, but for ten years I found myself doing a lot of that shit... as a TECHNICIAN. And you know what? As much as I HATED the living daylights of my physics, and MATH instructors, later on I learned to actually appreciate the sweat in learning that shit. These days I use it for far less intense situations... and thankfully no lives are on the line. I can use not having that stress. But hell, the concentration of gases in an atmosphere can tell you whether they are combustible or not, or how badly they will displace Oxygen. These things that these days are just there... as random pieces of data. At one point they were essential, but hey... let's eliminate all this from schools. We really do not want little johny or little suzzie to feel bad because they failed. And failing is not a nice feeling, but shit.

Oh and as a technician I didn't need college. Damn glad I was FORCED to take those useless courses... they were not that useless after all.

[Lionel Mandrake]

392. Wow, that's a heavy load.

Your first year of junior high:

Algebra I.
Chemistry I
Physics I
Biology I
History
Spanish
English I
PE

Plus Hebrew, Bible Studies & Jewish History

That list makes me tired just thinking about it! ;)

Your education was hardly typical. Most kids go to public schools and have electives in grades 9-12. So no, I wasn't kidding.

I have to wonder who, if not you, decided on that monumental list. Or was it written in stone that all those subjects were absolutely required?

In any case, you are to be congratulated for learning so much in one year.

[nadinbrzezinski]

397. That is a COMMON load in public schools

In other countries. You telling me American kids are somehow unusual or less capable?

The first half was the Federal program for the Federal Department of Education south of the border. We survived.

Oh and yes it WAS written in stone.

[Lionel Mandrake]

515. Is that a common load in all other countries?

You listed eight subjects besides Hebrew, Bible Studies & Jewish History. If you were taking all those subjects at the same time (as I assumed), then that would have been an impossible load where I went to school. No public school I attended had that many periods in a day.

I think kids are equally capable everywhere. Maybe they are used to working harder in some countries than others.

If I recall correctly, in my high school there were seven periods, one of which would be used for a lunch break. That left a maximum of six classes per semester. But science classes always lasted two periods. Nobody took more than one science class per semester. One period was always spent on PE. Students might also spend a period on driver ed. or "study hall". A typical college preparatory load would be four academic subjects (not counting PE).

I just happen to have a record of the academic classes I took in grades 9-12 (back in the 1950s):

9th grade: English 1/2, world history 1/2, algebra 1/2, French 1/2, woodworking 1.

10th grade: English 3/4, geometry 1/2, French 3/4, Life Science 1/2

11th grade: English 7/5, US History 1/2, algebra 3/4, physics 1/2

12th grade: English composition/sociology, solid geometry/trigonometry, chemistry 1/2, mechanical drawing 1/2

NB: I used "/" to separate the semesters in each academic year.

I'm not proud of this record, nor am I ashamed of it. I use it merely to illustrate what was then, I think, a typical schedule for a high school student planning to go to college. There were no AP classes back then. No high school offered calculus. This was before Sputnik, which scared a lot of people and led to various reforms in math and science classes AFTER I graduated from high school.

Unless I am missing something, it seems that you worked about twice as hard as I did in junior high and high school.

[nadinbrzezinski]

537. Our school day was NOT short

I went to school at eight in the morning, left for home at four thirty. and had an afternoon of homework, which is a whole different rant... and the fight against it.

By HS the school day started at seven in the morning and was over by five thirty. We still had time for Fencing and English class at at yet another private place, Oh and I mean English as in Queens English... which was amusing when I came to California... so I joke that I am fluent in both English and American. I have freelanced in the past in the British market, and it is far easier for me to fall into that writing style by the way. Both Mexican Spanish and English use long sentences, that are fairly complex.

The PUBLIC school, since they did not have the extra load, started at eight and were done at three.. when the second shift came in, since you have morning and afternoon shifts. And no, not every kid ends HS, or goes to Preparatory school, aka prep school. Kids by HS either go to Prep school, or to vocational schools. There is that division, but unlike Europe there is no exam.

And yes, I did work harder. By the time I went to COLLEGE here, in the US... the first two years of General Ed, we were repeating high school... essentially. A few courses, like kids who take AP insert here. I was able to validate... just bring the physics textbook. They were amazed. It was the same textbook kids used IN COLLEGE for physics 300. So neither my sister or I had to take physics... and I screamed out of joy... but when I took astronomy as an elective that background in physics was very helpful.

My Chemistry textbooks in college were the exact same textbook, newer edition and in English. I mean it was kind of... you kid me.

Now my mom went to the AMERICAN School in Mexico city, oh around WW II. And we have talked about how the requirements for my nieces, even when going to a private school in Oh, were lower than when she went to school in the 1940s.

I might add, the schools in Mexico have also been dumbed down and that is a major subject of horror as well. I guess when conservatives take over the first goal is the rise of the idiocracy.

But this is why I say, kids can and should be challenged in school. They CAN hack it... at times they may need a little help, but they can hack it.

[Lionel Mandrake]

544. Very interesting.

Your school sounds more like a German Gymnasium or a French Lycee than an American public high school.

Rich people in the USA often send their kids to public elementary schools, but they send them to prep schools (which are boarding schools) instead of public high schools. (That's "public" in the American, not the British, sense). Having talked to some "preppies" when I was in college, I can report that their secondary education was far more rigorous than mine, just as yours was.

I have to wonder if the plight of our public high schools has something to do with the fact that many rich people have abandoned them. This is especially the case for "old money", i.e., the families in the Social Register, whose daughters have coming-out parties and whose sons attend such parties. I am speculating here, because I haven't paid much attention to the American class structure in recent decades.

[nadinbrzezinski]

545. That is one of the reasons

but historically Americans have not a distrust, a disdain for educated people. It is our anti intellectualism and it is very much in the water.

The public school movement ironically, was part of the Working Man's Party in the 1820s... that is where it comes from... (not that most people know this), but they were supposed to be practical places where kids received the knowledge they needed for the trades.

The modern system got the money it got after sputnik, and we have a similar moment in time, but we are missing it, by a long stretch. That is why kids in Bangalore are going to eat our lunch... in fact they already are.

But we distrust book learnin' it is as old as the 1700s and the first Revival. Right now we are in what will be called the Third Revival, and religion (and distrust in secular experts) has taken on a new vigor... and teaching kids these things, or even assigning homework is not something we do... or kids might have to work at school.

The Mexican system goes all the way to the 1900s and the Positivistic movement, (though education and history are seen as critical all the way to the Aztecs)... and it is essentially modeled on a mixture of the German and British model. And kids who can hack it, and finish prep school (public or private it does not matter) can still go to University for mostly free.They believe that in these kids the future lies... now that does not mean that everybody goes to school or finishes it. Literacy is much beter than it used to be... but average schooling is about second grade of Junior High.

[Posteritatis]

334. I started a job as an estimator just last month

Sweet merciful crap is it ever annoying trying to do my own part of the job when people are dropping balls all over the place in the ways you're describing there, missing basic measurements or wildly botching them by, say, guessing a 9-12 roof as a 3-12, which kinda matters just a bit. Two minutes would fix most of the problem on most of the jobs that there's a problem with, too. Augh.

It's scary seeing so many impassioned defences of innumeracy in this thread; lots of people out there who want more of this kind of situation.

[Hello_Kitty]

335. You want to deepen that "permanent divide"? Require algebra for graduation.

And then cut the funding to the schools, as is going on across the country. See what happens.

[Sheepshank]

357. For those that can't graduate because they can't perform Algebra 101

what percentage is that?

My high school required a level of geography and chemistry too. I'd bet there are more that flunk Chem than math.

Chemistry...now there's a life task I've never used since graduating. Lets get rid of that. And fwiw, I'm broke I don't travel, geography is a waste of time. WTF do I care about the major export of Greece, or where the hell it is. I'm never going anyway. What do I care about the past, I live for the present and hope for the future, WTF good is History to me? I'll say it's worth crossing that off the curriculum. Set that bar low enough that anyone who can read "See Spot run", should graduate. Damn even that is too much....lets say those who learned to communicate in any shape of form gets to graduate. :sarcasm:

Algebra is not the overwhelming "make or break" that you are attempting to imply. Not by a long shot. Your implication is merely that any subject that causes a student to be flunked should be removed from the curriculum. You just chose to focus on algebra.

I think the problem is the focus on graduating high school. Graduating high school serves 2 purposes. As a spring board for college or as a message to employers that one has the ability to complete something.

For those that are going to college, great. For those that want to go into a trade, something that perhaps requires training (apprenticeships) or wish to attend a trade school, such as beauty salon, plumber, welder etc, why are we forcing those kids to graduate high school? Why not let them go into their desired trade and get that training under way in the 10th or 11th grade? Why, as a nation, do we place such a huge emphasis on, revere and set as the bar, graduating high school, rather that on entering a honorable trade?

[Hello_Kitty]

372. There is a link between algebra and dropout rates.

With the concern over algebra success in American schools comes its relationship to high school dropout rates. Los Angeles Unified School District superintendent Roy Romer has stated that algebra is a trigger for more dropouts than any other subject, and a 2006 study at Florida International University found that students who failed Algebra 1 were four times more likely to drop out of high school than those who passed the course.

http://www.districtadministration.com/viewarticle.aspx?...

And as I said, they're slashing funding to the schools as they're adding requirements to graduate. Unfunded mandates.

[Sheepshank]

424. your link supporting your statement wasn't working/linking...but....

having browsed through the site looking for an article related to your statement I came across this preamble to your statement above, instead:

http://www.districtadministration.com/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1581

When U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spelling announced in March the final report of the National Mathematics Advisory Panel, created by President Bush two years ago to address concerns that many students lack essential skills to become engineers and scientists, she highlighted the importance of algebra. "The panel's research showed that if students do well in algebra, then they are more likely to succeed in college and be ready for better career opportunities in the global economy of the 21st century," Spellings stated. The panel advised that all school districts provide access to algebra for all prepared students-including more as early as eighth grade.

As most administrators know, algebra opens the door to all high school math, says Cathy Seeley, a senior fellow at the University of Texas at Austin's Charles A. Dana Center, which supports K12 education with a focus on mathematics and science. "It's a basic college entrance requirement, so any student who is even possibly going to do postsecondary education needs to pass to keep their options open," she adds. For many students, Algebra 1 is the first math class that requires abstract thinking and problem solving, skills that are invaluable even if a student never uses algebraic standards like the quadratic equation at work.

while the article does talk about drop out rates using algebra as a suspect (it appears that in the US chemistry is not a high school graduation requirement otherwise, I'm still pretty sure it would become the #1 cause)...you tend to draw the wrong conclusion. The move is to make algebra more easily understood, attempting to circumnavigate the mental block that causes kids to give up, because those with algebra background simply do better in college. The concensus is that they simply must find a way to make algebra work, so that kids succeed, rather that throwing up their hands because of drop out rates.

Oxnard (Calif.) Union High School District has one high school class using Algebra Readiness this school year. With a largely immigrant, low-income student population, the district has struggled for several years to ensure that all of its students at six traditional and two alternative high schools succeed in algebra. Jim Short, a district math specialist, says that about a quarter of its students could use help to be ready for Algebra 1. "In our program , most students are engaged and learning, and their scores on tests so far show that," Short says. "The real proof will be when they move on to algebra, but we're very optimistic."
<snip>
However, how both double-block and standard Algebra 1 are taught is even more important than the curriculum, say administrators in charge of Los Angeles' secondary education. "We have a particular focus on how to get students into the task, make it relevant and engage them," argues Jeanne Ramos, the director of secondary mathematics for LAUSD. "Too much secondary math is taught in a way that is delivered as 'This is what I will show you, and you memorize it and then regurgitate it.' "

The move in school districts is not to lower the bar, but the improve how algebra is perceived and taught. The school districts as a whole realize the importance of algebra in critical thinking.

And while we are at it....it seems critical thinking to be the thing most lacking among our voters. I wonder how the comments on DU regarding the lack of educated voters would change if the population as a whole engages in more critical thinking rather that rote memorization.

[Odin2005]

258. Our side has its own anti-intellectualism, the bashing of the technical and the coldly logical.

[Hello_Kitty]

265. Unfair!

Some of us don't want to prize "the technical and coldly logical" over the lives of people. Odin, how do you think a nationwide requirement to pass algebra or not graduate high school is going to play out in the lives of lower income students in underfunded schools? In the top-notch school public school district wherein I was inculcated back in the 70s and 80s, algebra was not a graduation requirement. They understood that not everyone was a math whiz. Still, they cared enough about their students to ensure they knew enough math to get by in life and awarded algebra-deficient students diplomas. It was understood that if you hadn't done what you needed to do math-wise in high school you could make it up in remedial college courses. Math was never the big deal that reading was, and is, because you simply don't use math as much in daily activities or on the job as you use verbal skills.

[Odin2005]

310. Algebra is not hard! The notion that it is comes from bad teaching and experiences.

I used to hate math and thought I was no good at it because of bad experiences in 3rd Grade, but in high school I discovered that I was quite good at it.

[Hello_Kitty]

331. So because you ended up having a good experience

You are willing to consign others to not graduating from high school.

[howard112211]

289. Indeed.

[Hello_Kitty]

259. We're not against algebra. We're against holding the HS diploma hostage to it.

It's foreclosing the possibility of community college, trade schools, and the military against kids in underfunded schools. You're advocating for reducing the chances of them learning higher math post-high school. And for increasing the probability of them going to jail.

[Imperialism Inc.]

263. So we shouldn't require them to learn higher math so that they can learn higher math later?

Is that kind of like cutting Social Security so that we don't have to cut Social Security?

[Hello_Kitty]

No, we should encourage them taking higher math in K-12 at every opportunity

But realize the economic realities they're up against. Hey, I didn't invent the "get a HS diploma or do not pass go" standard. But that's what they're up against. I'd rather a kid graduate from high school not knowing algebra, with the potential of learning it later, than having her drop out and end up in jail.

[Dappleganger]

360. If you think that's bad, you should see the science threads.

[Critters2]

538. Lowest grade I got in high school was in algebra. I hated it.

Never saw the point to it, which demonstrates some pretty poor teaching skills. I now do the kind of critical thinking that algebra basically is, skills I developed pretty much on my own, because of the way algebra was taught. If it's a required subject, teachers need to help students see how it's relevant. No one ever did with me. I just felt I was spending hours finding this pain in the ass "N".

[KansasVoter]

254. Jesus, you argue like my 15 year old daughter.

[Taitertots]

266. Good, we shouldn't let people too stupid/lazy to do algebra graduate high school

The last thing we need is to dumb down the education system any more than it already is.

How often does anyone use the majority of the things learned in school?
Do you use history daily? No, but it is absolutely important.
Do you use biology/chemistry/physics daily? Probably not, but it is absolutely important.
Do you use political science/economics/psychology daily? Probably not, but it is still important.

Maybe if half of them acted like parents there wouldn't be a problem. Being a parent means being a teacher, it doesn't fall 100% on the school.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

268. I had a crappy math teacher in high school

She was not a math major. I had her for Geometry and Alg II. She would explain something twice and then say "YOU SHOULD KNOW HOW TO DO THIS".
I asked the kids who made As to help me and they wouldn't help me so I was screwed.

I had to have 6 hrs of math to graduate from college.
I took remedial algebra in college, which we called "Jolly Numbers" :rofl: And flunked it.

We could take the first course in logic in the philosophy dept for the first three hours of math, but I had to pass another course.
Finally I took linear algebra. The only reason I got a C was because the professor's son was my boyfriend's best friend. They were both computer science majors.

I was really messed up by that bad teacher.

Dear Hubby OTOH had a GOOD math teacher and good electronics teacher in high school, so he went into E.E., math and physics. He said he took 40 hours of math total in under grad and graduate school, but he understands it.

I use algebra all the time calculating cents per ounce in the grocery store, b/c I understand fractions. My aunt helped me with chemistry. She had a BS in chemistry and went to graduate school at Yale. I mastered the math in chemistry lab, but not in math class. Ended up with a BA in biology.

[truth2power]

269. .I've developed a fascination with math in recent years. I used to be math phobic...

I love algebra. It's like solving a puzzle. When I was in high school, a very long time ago, I took algebra and geometry, but it was very basic compared to what is taught today. Nowadays, students do much more advanced math much earlier. High school students can elect to take AP Calculus, and they don't seem to have much trouble with it. I think it has to do with how math is taught from the very beginning.

Here are some books you might find interesting:

Forgotten Algebra, by Barbara Lee Bleu.

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Algebra-Barbara-Lee-Bleau/dp/0764120085/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293425545&sr=1-1

This is a workbook which steps you through algebra, painlessly.



How to Solve Word Problems in Algebra - Mildred Johnson

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=how+to+solve+word+problems+in+algebra

This will show how you use algebra every day of your life.

[MissB]

272. I think you're right about it being taught earlier

Both my kids have had algebra already- and both completed it by 6th grade. My oldest will be in Calc or advanced Calc by his freshman year. More and more kids at their school are progressing through math at an accelerated pace. One class will have nearly 15 kids taking algebra 2 in 8th grade, and that's out of a class of 60 kids.

[Stuckinthebush]

275. How many people use proper grammar in daily conversation as well?

I would guess that very few people use proper grammar in daily conversations. Perhaps our school systems should examine that requirement as well.

We are a silly people.

[Odin2005]

474. Bad comparison. "Proper Grammar" is not for daily conversations, it's for formal speech and writing.

Nobody that is not a stuck-up prick speaks formal Standard English in common conversation. The standard language is so people that speak other dialects can understand you when speaking or writing formally.

[Ramulux]

278. Algebra 1 is easy as fuck

Its Geometry and Algebra 2 that can be very difficult, especially the 2nd semester of both classes.

[jeanpalmer]

280. An understanding of the basics should be required

Simultaneous lnear equations does not fall into that area imo.

[burrowowl]

284. Innumeracy is rampant

in America. I was talking to a lady who became rabid about: "well if you were rich, you earned and wouldn't want to be taxed to death" when I tried to explain to her about the disparity of the distribution of wealth in American. She really had no clue, Could be a problem with factions. But math teaches logical thinking and may I add Latin breaks us of our linguistic-centricity and helps us think outside of our linguistic box, there are other ways of expressing something and this might give you insight or a creative way of "thought".
Keep Algebra, bring back Latin and music and art appreciation! Stretch the little buggers minds, DAMN IT!

[Pholus]

296. +1 -- AN education is meant to challenge you. It isn't worth much if it doesn't. nt

[howard112211]

286. Then again, you don't HAVE to finish high school.

Knowing English literature, Chemistry, or Sociology are not necessary either, for going grocery shopping, getting pregnant, joining the military, or otherwise being a good citizen.

People who don't enjoy the pursuit of knowledge are free to leave and clear the way for people who do. Society needs people that flip burgers too.

[lonestarnot]

293. Good.

[sendero]

297. Basic algebra..

.... IS in fact applicable to everyday life. Perhaps not advanced versions but a lot of algebra is pretty simple.

[Vinca]

298. For some reason, my brain and algebra do not get along.

I'm not a stupid person, but I barely passed first year algebra back in the 1960's and somehow . . . somehow . . . I've managed to get through life. If ever I've needed anything remotely associated with algebra I've learned it, but, for the most part, the things that interest me don't require it.

[jberryhill]

301. As an adult, I have never played dodge ball either

I have not once needed to know who is Simon Bolivar. I have not made a single thing out of clay, and the only thing I have painted is a wall.

I have not had any need for diagramming a sentence.

I don't care whether Rosencranz and Guildenstern are alive, dead, or retired to a condo in Miami.

I do not know, or care, what is the capital of New Hampshire.

I have not read a novel in years.

I do run a business, and would not consider hiring anyone who could not handle algebra.

[Hello_Kitty]

337. Would you care if your prospective employee learned algebra in junior college rather than HS?

[Sheepshank]

359. that's where we should set the bar for college?

good grief..."strive for the low".

[Hello_Kitty]

368. Good grief! Ever been to a community college?

They offer classes in remedial math. Lots of people take them. The horror!! :wow:

[Sheepshank]

431. in college, kids should be studying what should have been learned in middle school?

What a colossal a waste of time, energy and money for the average Joe. That hardly seems like a winning argument.

[Hello_Kitty]

435. In college, kids ARE studying those things.

Because they come from shitty, underfunded school districts. I'm not saying it's a good thing but to deny people the opportunity to further their education after K-12 because they didn't pass algebra is just cruel.

[jberryhill]

470. That's what GED's are for /nt

[Sheepshank]

542. you are still arguing for the remedial as the new national standard?

where does that accomodating the lowest common denominator end? So let's imagine Algebra is no longer a graduating requirement because (said in my best whiney voice), "it's too hard". So now another subject matter bubbles to the top as the culprit that makes kids whine that school is too hard and unless it's simplified, they are going to drop out. Great, Hello_kitty and pals want to ensure more kids can graduate hight school. Lets eliminate mapping sentences in English. It's a useless subject, that unless one decides to become and english teacher, will never use. What's next to bubble to the top of the whine pile that must now be eliminated....?

Let me ask...what is the point of such accomodations? Graduating high school becomes nothing more than attending a social gathering of similar aged kids. Where does that improve the community, the nation. What will it mean to accomplish the status of'high school graduate' where there is no effort to that accomplishment?

[kgnu_fan]

303. IF USA wants to survive, this is a MUST. The rest of world labor force is moving ahead with algebra.

Have you ever been to European countries? Or in Asia? Their high school kids (sometime, middle school kids) are studying US collage level math. Regular carpenters, shopkeepers, waiters, etc are often much more educated than average American workers....

[Evasporque]

308. Critical thinking...requires the rigor of mathematics...

Bail on math...and other academically "rigorous" subjects..and be ready to accept anything anyone tells you as fact....

[Arkansas Granny]

311. This is a good thing. After the basics of addition, subtraction, divison and

multiplication, a lot of math is learning to use logic to solve problems, not the actual math process itself. If a person is going to learn, regardless of age, they need to be challenged.

[mix]

315. .

[Pholus]

319. :) Shows why math teachers need to be proficient in writing as well as math.

Then again, we all need to be well rounded.

[MindPilot]

341. LOL! I love that one because it is THE easiest question

You will ever see on a math test.

[slackmaster]

322. I believe that learning algebra is inherently good for peoples' brains

When was the last time you had to solve an algebraic equation in a grocery store?

Does something really have to have a practical use in order for it to be worthwhile to teach it?

I've never had to critique any movie that I watched in the real world, but the film criticism classes I took at UCSD have greatly enhanced my appreciation of the visual arts.

[Javaman]

328. When I worked as a camera assistant, I used algebra all the time.

Lens theory, don't you know.

It was sometimes faster to do the calcs on paper than hunting down the depth of field charts in the cameraman's handbook. On two shoots when I had lost my Samualson's calculator, algebra came to the rescue.

I never planned on being a camera assistant. If hadn't taken algebra, I would have been in deep doo doo.

[Posteritatis]

330. Big heaping pile of "what's wrong with education today" in this thread, OP and replies both. (nt)

[Lucky Luciano]

333. Definitely good. Math is the most important subject.

One cannot do math without the ability to read and write, so math includes reading and writing.

[UndertheOcean]

343. All this back and forth is about Elementary Algebra ? right ? we are not talking Abstract Algebra

here ?

[Lionel Mandrake]

379. Right.

See my post #225.

[Odin2005]

476. Right. Stuff like polynomials and quadratic equations.

Abstract Algebra is college material.

[MindPilot]

344. The stairs in my house are reversed because someone didn't know enough algebra

to know that the y goes over the x. Yes, they transposed the rise & run.

[nadinbrzezinski]

352. Ok that is funny and tragic at the same time

[MindPilot]

378. I show it to my visitors as the "Escher Memorial Staircase"

It is a difficult staircase to climb and astonishingly easy to fall down.


And that would have been perfectly obvious to the person building it if they had been able to visualize those stairs as a graph of a linear equation.

[Codeine]

409. You're not the first person I've heard this from!

The first in the context of mathematics, but reversed stairs I've heard about before. Sad and pathetic.

[Odin2005]

478. Ugh, speaking of idiocracy!!!

[timtom]

353. I am astonished at the degree of energy we have on this topic.

I agree with your original post. But, when I related my experience with asking people about when they used the quadratic equation, I experienced a bit of a dogpile implying just how stupid and republican-like I am.

Those people only extracted one idea out of my posts. They ignored the rest, to their own purpose.

America. I mourn for you. The hubris!

[Lionel Mandrake]

375. I too have been accused of everything except child abuse.

Apparently I have an evil agenda to dumb down the schools, an elitist attitude, etc.

Why is it that when people disagree with you, they interpret everything you say in the worst possible light?

[Stevenmarc]

354. I can't believe that this is even up for debate, we've truly become the Culture of the Mediocre

[stevenleser]

373. Yes, VERY disturbing. Whenever I see/hear people saying things like...

"why is it important for people to know..."

I find myself doing double facepalms. If I could do a quadruple facepalm on this thread, I would, but my legs are not that flexible.

"Why is it important for our kids to know..."

People who start off sentences that begin that way should just do the rest of us a favor and throw themselves off a building.

Yes, it's important for kids to have strong reading skills including classics and some hard to read texts.

Yes, it's important for kids to learn other languages.

Yes, it's important for kids to have strong math and science skills.

[timtom]

394. Yes. Yes. and Yes.

On all points.

[Hello_Kitty]

401. You agree that I should throw myself off a building?

Because I disagree with algebra being a graduation requirement?

[timtom]

419. I guess I wasn't clear.

I was agreeing with the "Yes" list only.

"Yes, it's important for kids to have strong reading skills including classics and some hard to read texts.

Yes, it's important for kids to learn other languages.

Yes, it's important for kids to have strong math and science skills."

But I agree with you as to specifically algebra is not for everyone. This has been one of the worst discussions I've ever seen (except for religious ones in GD). All this intellect and scarcely a measured viewpoint among 'em (except for thee and me and the OP). Everyone else is truculent and intransigent. Not good discussers at all. Lots of forcing of opinion, with no quarter.

[Hello_Kitty]

421. Ah, thanks! eom

[Hello_Kitty]

400. So you're for a nationwide requirement for passing algebra to get a degree, right?

And the funding to achieve that is going to come from...where? School districts all over the country are slashing budgets but hey, let's put the unfunded mandate on all of them to require algebra by graduation. That should work out well.

Or maybe you think all they have to do is issue the edict of Thou Shalt Learn Algebra and, poof, like magic it will be so!

[Recursion]

405. Luckily, the TFA kids are cheap

And the data show they're better at teaching math than "professional" teachers, although they're worse at teaching other subjects. And teaching algebra doesn't require anything except a classroom and the textbooks.

[Hello_Kitty]

408. LOL!

Seriously, it's like people here think the Algebra Fairies are going to sprinkle magic dust over the schools to equip all of them to teach algebra to all of their students.

[Recursion]

412. Well, I pointed to a group of teachers...

...who have been empirically shown to be good at teaching math to high schoolers. Furthermore, there are a lot of them (especially in this economy). How does that seem like magical thinking to you? It's not like I'm simply hoping TFA kids will be good at teaching math, I'm reminding you that empirically they have been shown to be good at teaching math and bad at teaching other things.

[Nikia]

356. Of course it should be a graduation requirement

It is basic math. Everyone should know basic math. It is very useful for daily living and many jobs, including some jobs that are thought of as unskilled labor. I work at a food processing company and wish all of our employees had good math skills.

[and-justice-for-all]

376. I am working on a degree in Web Design..

and I can not understand why I have to know that crap. For medical, I can understand, but Web Design and other related degrees...I just do not see it. So, the conclusion is that the university just wants more money from me.

Math is my mortal enemy, and I have to take a 5 credit math course spring semester...BLAH!!!!!!

[Pholus]

393. Well..... maybe this will help?

An article for your amusement.

http://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/design-theory/mathematics-and-web-design-a-close-relationship/

And let's not even get into handing user input.

[bettyellen]

407. most designers would do better with some algebra and geometry as they help you

divide and reproportion the specs of item you are designing. i work in design and see it all the time. I also spend way too much time patching up the work of designers who have no ability to plan because of a lack of skills. The end product suffers because the designer winged it. Their talents go to watse all the time because they do not see the possibilities, the different options in solving design problems. Rgiht now you're probably just focusing on the programs the practical stuff, but for desginers, no matter the medium, algebra and geometry can be totally critical.

[Tesha]

443. How fast does a page load? What factors affect that and how much influence does each factor have?

Don't look now, but the answer is a simple algabraic equation.

Tesha

[Lucky Luciano]

513. A lot of computer graphics uses linear algebra.

Rotations, stretching, translations etc can all be represented by matrices.

Quaternions are heavily used actually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternions_and_spatial_rotation

If you know this, then you can make animations in your web design and you will have a competitive advantage in a space that is seeing more and more outsourcing.

[xor]

578. Maybe someday you'll have to whip up some javascript to something, and you'll need a bit of maths

do it correctly.

[blindpig]

382. It can be helpful for sorting out things

For example:
1 coat = 20 yds linen

;>)

[CreekDog]

384. i found that i needed to know algebra to be able to afford to buy groceries

:hi:

[shawn703]

385. What should a high-school diploma measure?

In your opinion, which high-school subjects should be mandatory for graduation, because ALL students will find that knowledge necessary in their adult lives?

If you cut out all of these subjects, would kids even need to go to high-school?

Do you think these kids should go to college without this educational background? Having to learn subjects you don't think you'll have a use for doesn't go away in college or in the workplace. Science majors usually still need to meet a language arts requirement, and vice versa. I have to take ethics training every year, and in my opinion I'd never run into any of those situations, but I still have to do it.

The other thing is, don't assume that a high-school student knows in high school what profession they will enter after all their schooling is complete. During college I found that I really enjoyed working with computers more than I did focusing on biology. Before I switched majors, I had the same bitch about Calc I, but afterwards it was a good thing I took it because Calc II and III became major requirements.

If anything, being able to learn something you don't necessarily enjoy is a good thing.

[Hello_Kitty]

395. So require all HS students to master algebra. While slashing school budgets at the same time.

That will work out well.

[shawn703]

508. Did you reply to the wrong post?

I am not at all advocating slashing school budgets. I do want to know where the OP feels the line should be drawn as to which subjects should be required for a HS diploma. If a college admissions officer or potential employer sees that an applicant has a HS diploma what should they be able to determine of said applicant's ability? OP is already saying a mastery of algebra is too much to expect. How about HS level sciences, social studies or language arts?

[Meeker Morgan]

388. Yeah baby. Teach them to count change and hand them a diploma.

Wait a minute. No need to teach them to count change, the cash register will do that for them.

[Aviation Pro]

391. As a pilot, an instructor and SME....

...every single day.

If you can't do math you doom yourself and your children, who will need help with theirs, to failure.

[MindPilot]

399. Heh! I was never good at math until...

I got lost on my solo cross-country.

[Aviation Pro]

455. Yep, then all of sudden trigonometry never looked so good.....

....

[Hello_Kitty]

396. So all of y'all who think requiring algebra for graduation is a good idea.

Are storming the gates of your state legislatures for adequate funding to ensure that all students have the resources they need to master algebra, right?

Otherwise you're calling for yet another unfunded mandate for many school districts.

[MindPilot]

404. Come on, algebra has been core curriculum forever.

Requiring it for graduation does not constitute an unfunded mandate. If you want to look at it in financial terms, algebra is one of the least costly courses to deliver...all you need is a classroom and a teacher.

[Hello_Kitty]

411. It's a core curriculum for college bound HS students.

Requiring it for everyone only drives up the dropout rate.

But hey, it's more cheap labor for the private prisons!

[JVS]

414. Requiring it for everyone saves money that would have to go to low level math curriculum development

Everyone wins. Students learn more. Schools spend less.

[Hello_Kitty]

416. Do you have a link for that assertion?

I've provided a link to the correlation between failing algebra and dropping out. Nobody wins (except the prison industry) when kids drop out of high school.

[JVS]

420. You're correlation doesn't imply causation. Maybe both dropping out and failing algebra were...

caused by being too stupid to achieve the diploma.

[Hello_Kitty]

425. Take it up with LA School Superintendent Roy Romer

"It triggers dropouts more than any single subject," said Los Angeles schools Supt. Roy Romer

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jan/30/local/me-dropout30

Increasing graduation requirements without the appropriate supports is a recipe for failure.

[Codeine]

413. This is not a new requirement. You've needed Algebra since I was a kid in California.

Why would this be any more of an "unfunded mandate" than anything else on the curriculum? If they suddenly decided an entirely new skill set was required then you MIGHT have a point, but not something which has been there forever.

[Hello_Kitty]

430. Maybe in your district in CA but it was more recent in LA.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jan/30/local/me-dropout30

They just implemented an algebra requirement here in AZ, which has the worst funded schools in the nation. Our legislature plans to slash funding even further. I'm sure that'll work out well with the new graduation requirement.

[Nikia]

436. I graduated from HS almost 15 years ago

In Ohio. I believe that both Algebra and Geometry were state required courses. For sure, they were required at my high school, which was a rather poorly funded school. They did have sections for students that weren't as good at math. I'm not sure how much these were classes were dumbed down. Math probably was one of the more frequently failed classes and the subject that students on the state proficiencey tests were most likely to fail. Despite this, we had over 90% graduation rate.
I think that good math teaching in elementary school and middle school is necessary for many students to succeed in high school math. If this teaching was so poor though that students aren't ready for algebra, then they probably aren't doing well with the "vital" pre algebra thinking skills that you algebra haters say that is all that is necessary to get by in the world.

[Hello_Kitty]

438. Where did I say I 'hated' algebra? eom

[xor]

551. When you frame it that way, the problem isn't the algebra requirement. The problem is the lack of

funding. The OP was not making that point, the OP was making a point that she/he believes it shouldn't be required since many do not ever use it.

[Richard Steele]

417. Back in the 80s when I was building power lines, algebra came in handy all the time.

That was an "entry level" job, no real skills required
other than a big strong body and a willingness to learn.

I was amazed at how much of the 'useless crap'
they forced me to memorize in High School actually
applied to my daily life back then.

The length of steel 'guy wire' needed to attach a 40-foot pole
to a rock-anchor 17 feet away? Pythagorean theorum.

How far a roll of wire would go when we first laid it up
on the poles, and how much would be rolled back onto the reel
when we pulled it all up under tension? Simple 2-variable equasion.

Yeah, I never thought I needed any ALGEBRA until I got out into
the real world, and was surprised at how often it applies to real things.

On a related note, I once did something that few men have ever done,
or even believed possible. I actually WON an argument with a woman once,
and I won because there was a chalkboard in the room
and I remembered how to DIAGRAM A COMPLEX SENTENCE.

Talk about stuff I never thought would be useful!

[Sheepshank]

427. raising the bar...not lowering it

http://www.districtadministration.com/viewarticle.aspx?...


iWhen U.S. Secretary of Education Margaret Spelling announced in March the final report of the National Mathematics Advisory Panel, created by President Bush two years ago to address concerns that many students lack essential skills to become engineers and scientists, she highlighted the importance of algebra. "The panel's research showed that if students do well in algebra, then they are more likely to succeed in college and be ready for better career opportunities in the global economy of the 21st century," Spellings stated. The panel advised that all school districts provide access to algebra for all prepared students-including more as early as eighth grade.

As most administrators know, algebra opens the door to all high school math, says Cathy Seeley, a senior fellow at the University of Texas at Austin's Charles A. Dana Center, which supports K12 education with a focus on mathematics and science. "It's a basic college entrance requirement, so any student who is even possibly going to do postsecondary education needs to pass to keep their options open," she adds. For many students, Algebra 1 is the first math class that requires abstract thinking and problem solving, skills that are invaluable even if a student never uses algebraic standards like the quadratic equation at work.


There is no move or heave to eliminate algebra because kids just don't get it. On the contrary, the move is to make algebra more easily understood, attempting to circumnavigate the mental block that causes kids to give up, because those with algebra background simply do better in college.


Oxnard (Calif.) Union High School District has one high school class using Algebra Readiness this school year. With a largely immigrant, low-income student population, the district has struggled for several years to ensure that all of its students at six traditional and two alternative high schools succeed in algebra. Jim Short, a district math specialist, says that about a quarter of its students could use help to be ready for Algebra 1. "In our program , most students are engaged and learning, and their scores on tests so far show that," Short says. "The real proof will be when they move on to algebra, but we're very optimistic."
<snip>
However, how both double-block and standard Algebra 1 are taught is even more important than the curriculum, say administrators in charge of Los Angeles' secondary education. "We have a particular focus on how to get students into the task, make it relevant and engage them," argues Jeanne Ramos, the director of secondary mathematics for LAUSD. "Too much secondary math is taught in a way that is delivered as 'This is what I will show you, and you memorize it and then regurgitate it.' "


The move in school districts is not to lower the bar, but the improve how algebra is perceived and taught. The school districts as a whole realize the importance of algebra in critical thinking. And while we are at it....it seems to be the thing most lacking among our voters. I wonder how the comments on DU regarding the lack of educated voters would change if the population as a whole engages in more critical thinking rather that rote memorization.

[Hello_Kitty]

433. Raising the bar without the necessary supports

Is consigning low income students to no high school diploma and no prospects. People on this thread appear to be utterly oblivious to what is happening to school funding across the country. Then again, I'm not surprised considering all the RW talking points I see on education threads.

Arizona is requiring algebra for graduation starting with the class of 2012. Meanwhile, they're cutting school funding to the bone. My friends who are teachers teach in some of the poorest districts in the state, often classes that are majority ESL. And now they have to get their kids proficient in algebra. With no extra funding.

[Sheepshank]

439. how math is taught

is the same as how ANY subject is tought. It changes and gets creative and finds better ways to get eh message across to students. That you assume all those algebraic processes from 10 years ago require some sort of special uber enhanced costs to make it work, is wrong on it's face. Teachers already go through training for improved delivery of their subject matter. You are doing nothing more than creating excuses for lowering the bar.

[Hello_Kitty]

441. So you think there are no costs to this at all?

I swear, I have to wonder what kind of math a lot of you took back in school. You really think they're going to fulfill this mandate without at least hiring some more math teachers and tutors? Really?

[mainer]

429. Is this a new thing? Because I learned it ages ago in CA public school

In fact, I had my introduction to it in junior high school. Why is this an issue now?

If all California students learned it forty years ago, why can't they learn it now? Are kids dumber today than they were when I was in high school?

[DainBramaged]

437. They need to teach students to balance a checkbook first

Forcing Algebra on students is only good for helping their kids with homework years down the road. And those that think this is a good idea should wonder how come students can't do simple math in their heads when giving change working as cashiers.........

[nadinbrzezinski]

445. That is what kids learn in PRIMARY school

You know by fourth grade...or at least they should.

[DainBramaged]

450. Uh, ever watch a kid try to figure out change without a register?

I don't think they teach the checkbook anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

453. They teach addition and subtraction right?

Those are the skills needed.

We keep setting low goals and then we are shocked when they fail to achieve them.

[DainBramaged]

477. They are taught to pass tests thanks to No Child Left behind....

[nadinbrzezinski]

481. True story BEFORE no child

Was doing a demo of a game in Hawaii. Game requires very simple arithmetic. The demo required ninth grader to subtract eight from twenty...he reaches for calculator. I told him to do it in head, use fingers, use long hand. Kid could not do it. His excuse, he don't need this crap and he always has a calculator. I did not budge...took him two tries and well fingers...and close to 20 minutes. He was the average ninth grader...never mind Hawaii was at the time 51 out of 50.... Yes Guam was doing better. Locals didn't care...or did not get it...numbers are strange.

That is what we are facing, and someday that kid might be a tech where he needs math...or he might have gotten it why it matters. I hold little hope he got it.

But hey surf's up brah.

Oh and it might have cost us a sale or two... Idiocracy is not a comedy. Set low goals...

[DainBramaged]

489. I taught my beautiful Daughter SEE the numbers and you will be fine

she has consistently been on the the Honor Rolls and now Dean's list for oh 6 consecutive years........


Math is an adventure, except some people teach their kids math is a roadblock.........


:hug:

[Odin2005]

482. One teenage cashier I had could not do $63.74 + $20.00 = $83.74

And I had a co-worker that could not figure out 12 x 2 = 24.

We are SCREWED.

[DainBramaged]

516. $10.55 and give the cashier $21.00 and watch their hair catch fire.

[SoCalDem]

447. We were taught the checkbook thing in 5th grade

Our teacher took us to the bank on a field trip, and we all got our very own check book..

The teacher "gave" us each an imaginary $100, and then "charged us" for various things.. like sharpening a pencil=$1.00..talking in class=$2.00 etc.

after a week, we had to turn them in and that dear soul checked them all & graded that assignment....neatness counted too:)

The checks were "counter checks"..they had no account numbers on them, so no one was in danger of going on a check-writing crime spree:)

[LanternWaste]

449. I'm betting that the vast majority of responders...

I'm betting that the vast majority of responders who are upset with the higher math qualifications to graduate are themselves pretty horrid at it... not that I would expect someone who is horrid at one of the fundamentals of education to ever admit to it, rather I would expect the "I was great at math and never use it..." routine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

456. I was horrid at it in school

And then I found myself using it all the time in real life.

Yes some kids will have a he'll of a time with it for various reasons...

<------------- me...

But lowering standards any further is just stupid.

That said anti-intellectualism is as Murican as pie!

[Codeine]

497. Each of them seems to be an unparalleled mathematics whiz

who just so happens to hate math, huh? It is to laugh.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

460. LOL. in india we learn algebra in 7th grade. its not that difficult

and making kids dumber is not a good way to have a prosperous country

if your argument is that kids are not getting enough funding in education to gain math skills, thats a separate argument.

[mainer]

462. Yeah, I learned it in 8th or 9th grade.

I can't believe people are moaning about something as basic as algebra. Now calculus -- THAT is cause for moaning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

471. So is Mexico

It is that pesky European style curriculum.

[Hello_Kitty]

521. I volunteered as an ESL tutor about 10 years ago

All of my students were from Mexico all were illiterate not only in English but in their native Spanish as well. Comparisons to other countries are useless because we require children to attend school and for public schools to take all comers. Every country that supposedly does a better job teaching kids than we do has some system for cherrypicking the best and the brightest.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

539. only if you think wealth=intelligence. nt

[Hello_Kitty]

540. I don't.

But I also don't think you should hold up a country (India) where 45% of the women are illiterate as a model education system.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

548. i hardly said it was model. what i said is that we did algebra in 7th grade

if those people in the less than model system like india can do it, why cant the glorious american education system handle it?

[Hello_Kitty]

552. Because the glorious American system takes all comers.

They don't exclude children for not being of the right caste or gender. Hey, we did algebra in 7th and 8th grade in Montgomery County, Maryland. Because it was Montgomery County, Maryland! I live in Maricopa County, Arizona now. My friends who teach are dealing with classes where the majority of students are ESL learners. Tom Horne, Republican teabagger asshat Superintendent of Schools decided to add algebra to the requirements for HS graduation. With no funding forthcoming from the state lege to help pay for it. Guess who's going to suffer? If you think it will be white kids from middle class families with involved parents, you are wrong.

[Odin2005]

484. This Minnesotan learned Algebra in Jr. High, Geometry in 9th and 10th...

...Trig and pre-Calc in 11th and Calculus in 12th.

Seriously, compared to Calc, ALGEBRA IS NOT THAT HARD, PEOPLE!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

485. Only reason I stopped at trig is

I went into pre program for humanities... So while sis took calc and biochemistry I gor sociology 101 and comparative religion

[Codeine]

499. We don't like challenge or discomfort of any kind here.

And the parents are allowing their children to avoid anything they don't like. Sad.

[Hello_Kitty]

502. It's not a separate argument when the mandates come with no funding.

In Arizona algebra is a graduation requirement starting with the Class of 2012. Meanwhile, the state lege is slashing the education budget.

And nearly half of the women in India are illiterate so your statement about education there only applies to those lucky enough to receive it. http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2009/en/pdf/EN_SOWP09_ICPD.pdf

[mainer]

507. Is learning to read and write also a mandate?

Is learning to spell? Those all take valuable teacher time as well. Why don't we just give up on the whole education thing entirely.

[Hello_Kitty]

517. Why don't we just pile more graduation requirements on schools without funding them?

I'm sure algebra teachers across the nation would have no problem accommodating classes 2 and 3 times their current size. Easy peasy.

[mainer]

557. Algebra is an UNFUNDED MANDATE? What?

Algebra is in the same class as reading, writing, and arithmetic. If you're going to call algebra an unfunded mandate, then so is basic reading comprehension.

I cannot believe, in this day and age, that a basic subject every student would have mastered in junior high school when I was a kid is now considered too complex, too scary, and too expensive for today's students.

Here is precisely the reason the US has slid so far down into the dumps. What was taught and mastered two generations ago is now considered "too much to ask."

[PBS Poll-435]

483. Ugh

I use Algebra every day.

Everyone should be required to master an intro to Algebra class because it teaches logic skills very useful later in life.

[ItNerd4life]

488. This sounds like something a Freeper would ask. We done be smart! nt

[earth mom]

491. I hate math but managed to get good grades in math in HS even though it felt like torture.

I don't think math should be forced on students that don't like it or who are more artistic like I was.

What pisses me off is that so much has been taken from schools because of lack of money: art, music, home ec, shop class. But there is ALWAYS money for sports and math! :grr:

[Electric Monk]

492. I thought Al Gebra was on the terrorism watch list?

(wink)

[apocalypsehow]

496. Got in just under the deadline to give this OP the UnRec it richly deserves. n/t.

[One_Life_To_Give]

498. Who needs to figure outwhat their mortgage terms mean

We all should just trust the people selling us the stuff rather than be able to think for ourselves.

[Codeine]

501. There was a fantastic thread a few months back

where several posters simply could not understand the maths behind an amortized mortgage loan. They were enraged to discover that they would be paying more than a simple percentage of the total loan as interest.

[One_Life_To_Give]

506. Don't know wether to Laugh or Cry.

Is it any wonder we are in the current fiscal crisis then?

[JVS]

512. Was that the "Durrr! They make you pay the interest first! Hurr!" thread?

[Codeine]

524. It was.

Comedy gold right there.

[tammywammy]

549. Oh I remember that thread

Perfect example why we shouldn't be lowering our standards in education.

[Recursion]

522. Well, "Al Jibr" was written by an Iranian (Al Khwarizmi)

So you could probably get the GOP to agree with you in throwing it out of schools.

We must save our homeland from terrorist math!

[LibDemAlways]

535. I took Algebra I and II back in high school. I barely passed. My brain

isn't wired to set up or solve algebraic equations and, frankly, I've never needed to in my career as an English teacher.

Public school teachers in California are required to pass a test called CBEST, which has a math component. I received the minimum math score required to pass. (I aced the reading and writing portions.) Not something I'm proud of or ashamed of. I simply do not have an aptitude for it.

All that said, I don't think it's asking too much for high school students to pass a basic Algebra course. There are real-life applications in many fields.

[MH1]

543. It doesn't have to be about the math.

Learning algebra teaches problem-solving and following instructions.

Plus with the right teacher, it's friggin' EASY, and a potential way for kids who may not excel in other areas, to build self-confidence. (Of course if someone who can't teach algebra is in charge of the class, well then there might be a problem).

[onpatrol98]

550. Algebra???

We are talking about algebra, right? This is not rocket science. It's not really expecting a lot of teenagers to learn algebra. It's not complicated. To my mind, if you can't learn algebra, you probably do not have a good grasp of basic math or perhaps you're suffering from a fear of math. It would be better to get to the bottom of that problem than attempting to remove the requirement or make it seem unnecessary. Not to mention, other countries that we often tout in terms of their science innovations (climate control and health care), are blowing us out of the water because of our lack of knowledge in math and science. We don't do our children any favors by trying to give them an easier ride in school.

[Kaleva]

553. The only reason I passed Algebra in the 9th grade was that I sat next to a smart kid...

and I copied off of him. That was the only math course I took in HS. After a number of years in the Navy working on radar and weapons control systems, I decided to attend a two year technical course at a nearby college and had to take a math and English exam to determine which math and English courses were appropriate for me. I did well enough on the English exam to qualify for the College Composition course but bombed on the math part so I was assigned to take a Basic Algebra course which was basically taking the 9th grade algebra class all over again. Just 19 years later.

Despite having a limited knowledge of the multiplication table (I can't tell you off the top of my head what 7 x 8 equals nor do I know how to convert decimal to fraction and vice versa) I did very well in the Navy and graduated near the top or at the top of the "C" school courses. I was on the Dean's List during my two years at the local college and after graduating from there got a job at a nearby heating/plumbing and air conditioning company were I quickly became the lead technician.

Without a calculator, I'm pretty much a dummy at math but what I do know has served me well.

[HEyHEY]

554. I don't use a lot of shit in my daily life that I took in high school

But that doesn't mean I shouldn't know it, or understand it. They're not asking us to build a moonlanding module they just want us to understand BASIC algebra. It can also relate to other things. Education should strive for more than "day to day living".

I learned how to cook kraft dinner and change a tire from my parents, okay. I don't need to learn that shit in School. What I need to learn in school is physics, history and a host of other things that get me thinking more about the world around me.

[ismnotwasm]

559. In Nursing

we use transdimentionial analysis, then we call the pharmacist to find out what the fucking drip rate is supposed to be.

Algebra helps you think, and it's a way to think. Balance. To work out an equation and get it right is like Zen. (Even if for only a second before the headache starts)It's really not that bad, and I speak as a math challenged person. Once I stopped the negative self talk, math was easier. I'll never be that great at it, but I appreciate it's beauty.

Algebra is similar to chemistry, something my profession needs at least a hand-shaking acquaintance with. And chemistry is the stuff we're make of, what the world is made of.

If we don't learn to think about things other than what is immediately useful, the world could very well fall to the same folk who think dinosaurs and people walked the earth together, that religion is a great way to run a government and that the most important things in the world are fashion and gossip

[WilliamPitt]

560. Most. Random. Flame. War. EVAH.

:confused:

[timtom]

563. Amen! to that!

[TexasObserver]

561. Graduation from high school should require only 9th grade skills.

I responded to this thread earlier because I do think basic algebra skills are preferable.

However, I also don't believe it should be necessary to do algebra to graduate high school. I would prefer they learn first how to read and write, then do basic math. If they can count change, make a budget, and balance a checkbook, they're ready for their first step into adulthood.

We try to teach kids entirely too much now, and in the end, they learn much less than they once did. Volume of educational materials doesn't matter if most students don't process or retain them.

I'd like to see middle school and high school made more practical, with controls on how much information can be thrown at them.

[pokerfan]

564. Really?

No need for all that fancy book learning in the 10th-12th grades? Master 9th grade skills and get a HS diploma.

:shrug:

[TexasObserver]

568. If I had wanted to say that, I'd have said that.

[pokerfan]

577. Then please

explain this statement:

"Graduation from high school should require only 9th grade skills."

[mainer]

565. If you only have 9th grade skills, you should get a degree from 9th grade

And that is all.

I'm astonished by the acceptance of generalized dumbing down of our schools. Sure, we have lots of immigrants now. But we've always had immigrants. And they've managed to do well in generations past, despite language difficulties. I know of many Asian kids who came into public school not speaking a word of English, who managed to master algebra and calculus despite poverty and after-school jobs. Why do we demand less of kids today than we did 20 years ago?

[Posteritatis]

567. Stuff like this goes past acceptance of dumbing-down and into advocacy for it.

Seeing people seriously argue that an inadequate educational system is actually giving kids too much - when, mysteriously, pretty much the rest of the developed world is getting by just fine with more - is pretty frightening.

[Posteritatis]

566. So what, eliminate grades 10-12, since you don't think they should be necessary?

What a staggeringly stupid idea, even by the standards of education threads around here.

[TexasObserver]

569. If I had wanted to say that, I'd have said that.

Perhaps you should reread my posts and see if you can figure out why your post to me is absurd.

[Posteritatis]

570. Your post is absurd because you think anything close to a junior high education is acceptable

You're either saying tenth through twelfth grades should be unnecessary, or that the education of the first nine grades should be stretched over three more so that the poor little snowflakes aren't getting stressed out by having to learn things that people occasionally need to know since it isn't the 1950s anymore. If you're seriously arguing that kids need less education than the joke of a schooling they're already getting, then yes, what you're saying is ridiculous and worthy of nothing but the utmost contempt. Even young-earth creationists aren't often that deep into dumbing-down territory.

[TexasObserver]

572. I say exactly what I want to say. No more, and no less.

I don't carry on discussions with people who constantly attempt to rephrase everything I say.

If I thought it was worth the time, I'd discuss this with you further, but I don't.

[Name removed]

579. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leeroysphitz]

571. My familiarity with algebra lets me do my jobs better and faster than the other guys.

I's quite possibly one of the reasons why I am still employed (the other being LUCK) (knock on wood) here in Detroit.

The fact that I can program these machines (which just means typing in some simple algebra with a few extra symbols) to build my projects means I can compete with guys that have been doing it WAY longer than me based solely on how much faster I can produce increasingly complex designs.

I guess I might not love the idea of having to compete in a job market where everybody else were as familiar with algebra as I am but just think of all the extra problem solving America could be doing if everybody were to receive an adequate education.

[dionysus]

573. algebra is freshman or sophomore year math. it should be required

[flvegan]

575. Great Odin's beard!

You people will fight about anything.

How the hell did this thread even happen?

[JVS]

576. I'll tell you how this thread happened. It started when the OP posted something mindblowingly wrong

[Posteritatis]

580. It is good to fight against the argument that American education isn't yet inadequate enough. (nt)

[PacerLJ35]

581. Algebra isn't very difficult

No, not everyone will use algebra in their daily lives. But then again, not everyone has a dire NEED to know basic biology, earth science or even nit-noid details of sentence structure either (at least most people these days act like they have no idea how to speak normal English). BUT, we teach people a little of all that so they become well rounded, educated adults. If the requirement for math stops at 4+4=8 and long division, then perhaps we should just stick to other basics, like cows are mammals and snakes are reptiles, and you only use capitalization for proper nouns and the beginnings of sentences and the US became a country in 1776...who needs all that other chaff anyways about cell structure, what's an adjective or the details of why the Civil War started?

It's amazing the number of people on here that'll scream bloody murder about the size of the defense budget stating it should be used for education, then they'll complain that expecting people to know basic algebra is "too much". No, it's not too much. Like others have pointed out, algebra is nothing more than word problems stated in mathematical formats. If it's asking too much that a kid should know that 4+x=8 and x=4, then god help this country.

[boppers]

590. Dear god, an epic thread on learning an idiotically simple idea.

I'm going to drink before I read any responses, but suffice to say that I use algebra daily.

"When was the last time you had to solve an algebraic equation in a grocery store?"

The last time I had to solve "per oz", and "per portion", pricing.

[boppers]

592. I made it a third through the thread without hating humanity.

After that, not so much.