For the 1st time, amidst all the teabaggery, I'm afraid.

[Greybnk48]

I was just listening to the Dylan Ratigan show (1st time for that too) and they did a segment on the Koch's. He talked to the two journalists, formally from Russia, who originally broke the story that the Tea Party was funded by the Koch bros. They talked about the family history. The dad was an oil man who went over and worked for Stalin for years. He was also the co-founder of the John Birch Society (who are coincidentally headquartered in my home town, to our great shame).
What scared me was that the Koch's have made known that they alone will pour $88 million into the next election on a state and federal level to take over as much as possible. Their goal is to set up a Russian style oligarchy fronted by a fake democracy. WTF! I think they can do it. How do we fight this? I feel like we have to do something now, but what? Ideas?

[damntexdem]

1. YOU feel shame? Koch Industries is headquartered in my home town.

In fact, I've watched my alma mater play in a couple of NIT games this past week -- broadcast from Charles Koch Arena.

Ewwwww!

[Greybnk48]

20. I have a special place in my heart for all Dems living in

Texas. :hi: Hang in there, we need you!

[Thunderstruck]

37. It's red hell here.

[Greybnk48]

42. That sucks for sure. But you have many, many friends

and like minded people all over the country. We ARE the majority in this country, don't forget!

:pals:

[felinetta]

113. How do we prevent them from stealing elections if it comes to that. I can't imagine they would stop

for anything.  Ice runs through their veins.They are serious
and play for keeps.

[Biker13]

47. I See You That...

and raise you Idaho!

You don't know what "Red Hell" means...

Biker's Old Lady

[Enthusiast]

58. It ain't no pleasure in Ohio either. nt

[socialist_n_TN]

68. Try it in Tennessee............

Although, if you're left here, you ARE left. At least you know where you stand.

[TBF]

64. No kidding, I live in Ron Paul's district. nt

[gimama]

97. hey..

hey, Neighbor!:hi:

[TBF]

123. ...

:hi:

good to know I have a partner in crime, often I feel like I'm surrounded by fools!

[russspeakeasy]

88. Red Hell in Florida too.. It just doesn't make the news.

[demtenjeep]

134. HE is talking about Kansas

Koch Arena is in Wichita Kansas

Home of the Shockers

[Drale]

2. Wait their father worked for Stalin?

Before or after WWII? Was he a traitor? I know they are traitors, but could it run in the family?

[Greybnk48]

10. It says on Wiki, he worked for Stalin from '29 to '32

but the history there is a bit muddled compared to what was said on Ratigan's show.

[54anickel]

87. Koch sock puppets most likely got to it. There was a post earlier on DU

Google Koch Sock puppets - looks like they're everywhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x604842

[emulatorloo]

11. Wiki here on Fred Koch. It was was late 20's early 30's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Koch

[blm]

25. Pure fascists. Stalin's evil, cruel communism will look like springbreak compared to pure fascism

that Kochs intend to bring to this country with the help of the Bush-controlled GOP. Many will die violently or live the rest of their lives in prison. Kochs want to be the Stalins of the US.

[Drale]

26. Stalin killed 23 million people

He was one of the most evil men to ever have lived.

[blm]

34. Yes...and Kochs admire that and want the same for the US under their idealogy of pure fascism.

The only thing standing in the way of blatant overthrow the last few decades was television cameras and their newscrews. So, now their cronies control most broadcast media.....now what do you think will happen?

[BOG PERSON]

74. only if you attribute the soviet deaths in world war ii to stalin

instead of, you know, the nazi invaders that actually did the killing.

[Brother Buzz]

92. The man was busy even without WWII numbers

estimated six to twelve million Russians killed by Stalin before World War II, and the several million killed after the war ended.

[BOG PERSON]

94. six to twelve million + several million

doesn't even sound like an attempt at an approximate number of dead, just a really big impressive one.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

112. This would seem to confirm your number of 23 million.

These are just the numbers from the purge and the Ukraine genocide.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

The worst genocides of the 20th Century
Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,000

Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23,000,000 (the purges plus Ukraine's famine)

Also: http://hnn.us/articles/131242.html


Truly horrific company that the Bushes and Kochs have associated with throughout history.

[jwirr]

98. Daddy was worried about poverty and hunger is the USSR. Somehow

he failed to get the message across to his sons. They could give a shit who is starving as long as it isn't them.

[stockholmer]

109. Koch's didnt just give to Republicans in 2010 elections,here is list of Democratics would got Koch $

not sure if any have returned these monies, somehow I doubt it seriously

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0910/Kochs_gave_196000_to_Democrats_in_2010_cycle.html


KOCHPAC & DEMOCRATS


During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $196,000 To The Democratic Campaigns And Committees. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $30,000 To The Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $20,000 To Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-AR) And Her PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $10,000 To Sen. Ben Nelson’s (D-NE) PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $10,000 To Sen. Max Baucus’ (D-MT) PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $10,000 To Sen. Mary Landrieu’s (D-LA) PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $10,000 To Sen. Mark Pryor’s (D-AR) PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $10,000 To Rep. Mike Ross (D-AR). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $9,500 To Rep. Collin Peterson (D-MN) And His PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $9,000 To Rep. Allen Boyd (D-FL) And His PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $8,500 To Rep. Dan Boren (D-OK). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $7,500 To Sen. Tom Carper’s (D-DE) PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $5,000 To Rep. Charlie Melancon (D-LA). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $5,000 To Rep. Chet Edwards (D-TX). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $4,500 To Rep. Bobby Bright (D-AL). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $4,500 To Rep. Solomon Ortiz (D-TX). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $4,500 To Rep. Charlie Gonzalez (D-TX). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $4,000 To Rep. Marion Berry (D-AR). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $3,500 To Rep. Gene Green (D-TX). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $3,500 To Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $3,500 To Rep. David Scott (D-GA). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $3,000 To Rep. John Barrow (D-GA). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $3,000 To Rep. Jim Matheson (D-UT). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $2,500 To Rep. John Spratt (D-SC). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $2,500 To Sen. Tim Johnson’s (D-SD) PAC. (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $2,500 To Rep. Earl Pomeroy (D-ND). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $2,000 To Rep. Ciro Rodriguez (D-TX). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $2,000 To Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $2,000 To Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $1,000 To Rep. Ron Kind (D-WI). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $1,000 To Rep. Dan Maffei (D-NY). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $1,000 To Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-NY). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)


· During The 2010 Cycle, KOCHPAC Has Contributed At Least $1,000 To Rep. Harry Teague (D-NM). (CQ Money Line Website, moneyline.cq.com, Accessed 9/9/10)

[Forrest Greene]

114. Stalin's Evil Cruelty

...resided in his totalitarianism. That was his political approach to governing the country. Communism is an economic system, which can be run benignly or malevolently. Stalin ran it malevolently. That was due to the nature of Stalin, not to the nature of communism.

[rhett o rick]

118. Sorry to change the subject, but I would like to know what type of economic system China has today.

thanks

[blm]

130. That's why I call it HIS....his communism bears no resemblance to real communism. Bad actors

have always ruined communism.

[gateley]

3. I don't know how we can fight that much money and subterfuge. Plus, our Dems

don't get on board with the talking points like the Reps do to keep hammering home the brainwashing messages.

[glinda]

71. They are funding Bachman, Pawlenty and more with the purpose to just keep their lies

and manipulation out there. That is why we see a zillion Conservatives forming exploratory committees. It is all paid for by Koch.
Trump I am sure is a Koch lackey. Big name hired to be thrown out there for messaging.
I don't know if they need to be discredited one by one or if energy is best consolidated in telling the people about this.
I think arrests are actually the answer.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. It does sound overwhelming...

You're probably still in shock from hearing this.

I think that as long as there are good people out there (and there are) that we will not be taken over by the Koch brothers or any of their ilk.

Money doesn't always buy what the buyers think it will. If it did, Meg Whitman would be the new governor of CA. And she isn't.

I'm sure there are other examples too.

We need to be vigilant...

And we will.

:hi:

[Greybnk48]

13. Excellent point about Whitman. Thanks.

And I am in shock after that show. Especially the segment with the two journalists.

[MsLeopard]

28. Thankfully, we have paper ballots in CA

If we didn't, we probably would have Meg as Governor.

[Enthusiast]

59. I fear you are right.....nt

[glinda]

72. All the States better have paper ballots before the next election.

[blm]

30. The new voter ID laws will be used to neutralize the gains the left has made the last few months.

And they'll still control most broadcast media. It's one thing for us to be vigilant and activist, it's another to scale the walls their building around their kingdoms state by state.

[femrap]

5. First of all....

DON'T BE AFRAID. It's COURAGE that's scares these greedy f*ckers.

First, don't buy anything from Georgia Pacific...paper towels, napkins, toilet paper, paper cups, etc. AND TELL ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY NOT TO DO SO EITHER.

When I go to the grocery store, I always stop in the Paper Products section and tell other shoppers that Georgia Pacific makes their paper products using the skins of dogs and cats!!!!!

It's my own whisper campaign.

NOW THAT STICKS IN PEOPLE'S MINDS. I don't say anything about their politics because people are too stupid to understand....OK, most people.

[Greybnk48]

14. Love your campaign.

and I'm already boycotting those products. I'll work harder on the "campaign."

[LeftofObama]

23. ROFLMAO!

That gave me a great idea, femrap! How about getting some card stock and printing a little message about koch products being made from animal skins and placing them in the ailes of stores that carry those products! It probably wouldn't take long for the word to get out if enough of us did it.

[shimmergal]

44. Get stickies made up,

and you can put them on the individual items.

The dog & cat skin message is dubious. What's wrong with using the truth, including the Stalin connection?

[jwirr]

126. In the 80s we did that with Morton Salt - we had stickers made up

that fit on the top of the salt box that informed people that Morton Salt made most of their money building nukes. I don't know how much influence we had but we tried.

[femrap]

65. Anything that takes

food from the mouths of the Koch family is alright with me.

Look what they've done and are doing to millions of working people.

ETA: Make sure it says dogs and cats or puppies and kittens.....not just animals!!!!

[glinda]

73. Do they actually do that? Skins?

[bobbolink]

36. You have proof about the animal skins? Link?

Otherwise, dishonesty is not the way to "win".

[MattSh]

54. Sadly...

The MAIN reason we're losing this class war is that we are TOO honest. Oh, we must play by the rules. The truth will always win. Etc, ad nauseum.

Well, look where THAT has gotten us.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[sabrina 1]

55. All is fair in love and war. And this is a war. They chose the

weapons, lies and deception, and you don't go to war with sticks when the enemy is using bombs.

In ordinary times, lying about the paper products would be dishonest, but these are not ordinary times. How many people had to do things they would not ordinarily do during times of great upheaval in the world? And if they had not this world would be a far worse place.

The Koch Bros and their ilk declared war on us. Sabotaging their means of making money, cutting off their 'supplies' is not dishonest, it's strategy, imho.

[999998th word]

56. Like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[socialist_n_TN]

69. Agree Sabrina. And I think that we can do it..........

smarter than them too. We know that the best strategic lie is one that mixes in some truth and God KNOWS we've got the truth on our side.

[sabrina 1]

84. Yes, that's what always amazes me. If we were as devious

as they are we would be so much better at it. And now that we can see clearly how destructive their intentions are, I believe they have declared war on the working class and that makes any response they get, perfectly acceptable, certainly by their own rules.

[bobbolink]

76. And, you trash your integrity and use lies, and you've lost.

Truth is a powerful force, when we learn to actually USE it.

[freshwest]

78. I agree, it would cause ridicule to those who oppose the Koches because it can be easily disproven!

The truth is what needs to be told, and it's damning.

I don't get the calls for putting out easily ridiculed falsehoods and then allowing them to avoid being called to account for the truth...

Bad, bad idea, even if they are dishonest.

We have to keep the truth on our side, and as I said, it's damnation enough on these evil thugs.

[bobbolink]

79. I know that I am old-fashioned, but I will NOT compromise my integrity with untruths.

I doubt most people will, but if enough get frustrated enough to use this, I will definitely distance myself from it.

I understand frustration, and we can talk about it and support each other through it, but purposely being dishonest is not only a losing proposition, but is a loser all the way around.

And given what liberals in their frustration have become, I expect a lot of attacks for this view.

Have at it, peacemakers!

[vanbean]

91. We don't have to lie, the truth is worse than anything we could make up anyway.

[bobbolink]

93. That's my firm belief, too. Thanks!

It will just take effort to learn how to put it out in a powerful way. But we are smart and strong people, and we can do just that, once we decide it is important.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

101. No attacks from this liberal...

...and knowing that there are people who read DU and don't give a rat's ass whether Koch Bros are Stalinist oligarchs or not is a very large reason for maintaining honesty and integrity.

Right now, someone from that website which should not be mentioned is reading this thread and getting ready to post about the dishonesty of the Left, just to keep the common people as polarized as possible.

[bobbolink]

105. Sadly, I strongly suspect that isn't just in the realm of paranoia.

The unfortunate fact is, we really need to be aware of how things can be used and twisted.

This is no longer our Grandmothers' media.

A lot of polarization is happening anyway, but we certainly don't need to add to it.

Again, I stress that I undertand fully the frustration..... I think there are better ways of venting it.

Thanks! :yourock:

[Frisbee]

104. +1000

Agreed. You can fight fire with fire, but in most cases water is much more effective. Using their dishonest and immoral tactics in the long run both hurts our cause, and reduces us to their level. In the end, either truth will win, or it was a lost cause from the beginning.

[bobbolink]

106. "either truth will win, or it was a lost cause from the beginning"

That is very profound!

I know for me, losing is so painful that I can't really accept it. One thing I learned and am learning from the Libyans is that sometimes you retreat and wait to fight another day.

They can't all be fast-food battles... and waiting for the truth is the only win that matters.

Thanks... you have larned me something today! :yourock:

[Frisbee]

115. Thanks, Bobbo...

It is nice to have been told I have said at least ONE profound thing in my life. haha Lots of profane, profound, not so much!

[bobbolink]

116. Just please pace yourself.... Profound-ity gives me headaches.

And I can handle only so many per day, week, month...(dunno where that crossout function is)

Seriously, you really opened up some thought for me, and I appreciate it! :yourock:

[Enthusiast]

60. Your whisper campaign

is ethical compared to the one being waged by the Koch Brothers.

[femrap]

66. They do not require

any more money.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

102. So even on DU we move to the right of center...

...by using the same dishonest tactics as the TP people?

Unwise.

[kag]

85. Love it!

I laughed out loud at the prospect of telling some of the animal lovers around here about the "skins of dogs and cats". I think they'd flat out drop whatever was in their hands. (As well they should.)

What a great idea! Got any more?

[OneGrassRoot]

122. LOL!

:applause:

:rofl:

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[femrap]

138. Aldi's is a huge

grocery store in Europe....2 German brothers own it....and I read that they are having a feud (could be all lovey-dovey by now).

Anyway, they put Trader Joe's in some sort of Trust so no one can screw it up. At least that's what I've heard/read.

You will enjoy Aldi's. They 2 sales/week. So sign up to get their online newsletter.

They should give me a Marketing Job!!!!

:hi:

[OneGrassRoot]

139. Do you feel Trader Joe's is one of the few "good" companies out there...

with integrity?

I've only been there once but I know a lot of people are loyal.

They SHOULD give you a marketing job!

:thumbsup:

:hi:

[femrap]

143. I believe they offer their employees

good benefits. And most of the employees I've talked with say they enjoy their jobs.

I'm going to be moving away from my Trader Joe's.....so I've been trying to wean myself off of them. But I'll still have Aldi's...and that fits my budget much better anyway.

Of course, being 'owned' by Germans....of course, they get good benefits. I wish I had been born in Germany or France...a much more peaceful and respectful life. Our culture is just so unnatural and therefore stressful. There isn't much about US culture that I like anymore.

I just try to stay the hell out of the way....get me to the country and give me some animals and I'll feel better.

[Enthusiast]

133. We all have to do our part.

:spank: :rofl:

[emulatorloo]

6. Wow, I did not know the John Birch Society connection

But it makes perfect sense.

Teabaggers are more or less the same as Birchers. The difference is William F Buckley and other conservatives disavowed the Birchers and the media gave those kooks the amount of media coverage that they deserved - none.

[Greybnk48]

16. I may try to spearhead a local campaign to get them

OUT of my town. I'm starting to have an idea about making public the Koch connection to the Birchers and their ideology.

[Enthusiast]

61. And we have an entirely different

media today.

[Newest Reality]

7. First, we might want to consider what this could be called.

Is it too much to call it war, albeit an economic one? I mean, there are analogies you can use and takeover seems to be the intended endgame. Money is being used as economic and political leverage to such an extreme degree that this is an attack on everything we hold dear and have left. I think we see that in the Republican/Teabag, blitzkrieg by Governors and their troops.

No matter how you label it, yes, it is a very startling front we face. Our political system is already compromised by corporate interests and influences. Now, we see a line in the sand being drawn and I can't imagine how we would recover anything we lose if there is no staunch opposition in some way, shape, or form.

I know the term sounds rather sensationalistic these days, but setting-up a Russian-style Oligarchy intentionally smacks at treason as far as We The People is concerned. It is not just a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact if this threat is actual and get's played-out.

Let's see what kind of consensus we have here and what kinds of viewpoints people who have been paying attention bring to the mix. That's a good place to start.

I do not intend to be a Serf by law. I mean, many of us are already landless peasants treated as Serfs by various Lords, but we can't let this become a legalized fact within a democratic illusion. That's going over the line and way too far.

[Greybnk48]

17. The gravity of this, if true, cannot be overstated.

You capture it perfectly.

[socialist_n_TN]

19. Marx and the commies called it "Class War".......

Sounds good to me. But until we fight back it's "Class Massacre", as in the middle class lifestyle is being massacred.

[blm]

46. which is exactly why we need this video to go viral

.

[BOG PERSON]

89. shouldn't american socialists cautiously favor a class culling though?

as it would force the notoriously indecisive petty bourgeoisie to choose sides between the haute bourgeoisie and the proletariat.

[socialist_n_TN]

125. Define for me what you mean by class culling?.......

My personal opinion is that there's not enough socialists around to turn away any allies, even if they are part of the bourgeoisie, petit or haute. We need to stop the bleeding at this point. But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're asking.

At a later date, when socialism is seen in a little more favorable light by the populace, we can get a little more picky in our choice of allies. Now, understand I don't think that a majority of the populace need to actually BE socialists to take action, but for ANY revolutionary change to work, you have to have a populace that's ready to give it a shot, EVEN IF THEY DON'T ACTIVELY SUPPORT YOU.

[BOG PERSON]

127. i mean like a polarizing of class forces

through the dissolution of the middle class, which is necessarily not proletarian, and whose interests rarely coincide with those of the proletariat. (the proletariat is the outlaw class that, in our society, consists of e.g. migrant laborers, convict laborers, certain factory automata, etc.)

[socialist_n_TN]

129. Well, maybe I disagree with some in my definition....

of the proletarian class. As I've stated numerous times, I'm a heretic about ANY dogma, whatever priestly class it comes from. I look at anybody who works for a living FOR SOMEONE ELSE as the working class. This would include self employed owner/operators who are at the mercy of the capitalist/exploiting class that hires them on a contract basis. This includes also people who were in the past considered petite bourgeoisie, like teachers, doctors, lawyers, middle management, etc. This would also include the poor and disenfranchised who a lot of people do NOT include in the "proletarian" class because they don't or can't work. My idea of the "proletarian" is, obviously, pretty broad based.

Now I don't expect ALL of these groups to support a socialist change, but I would leave it open to them as to whether to support or not support and not AUTOMATICALLY say that they aren't part of the movement BECAUSE THEY DON'T FIT THE "CLASSIC" DEFINITION OF PROLETARIAN.

OK, IF I've got your idea correct, I believe that this polarization (dissolution of the middle class) of the classes is already happening. So the "culling" of the classes has already begun and, it appears, will only get worse. AND WE DIDN'T START THIS CULLING. The exploiting class did. As I've said numerous times on here, it's only class war if we fight back. Until then it's class massacre, as in the middle CLASS that's being massacred. IOW, what we look at as classically "middle class" has already been or will soon be massacred by the wealthy exploiters. Because of this, what's LEFT of the "middle class" will probably support the capitalists BECAUSE THE CAPITALISTS WILL BE WHO THEY DEPEND ON FOR THEIR COMFORTABLE EXISTENCE. That still doesn't mean that they WILL support the exploiters. They have the choice to collude or to join the rest of us.

IOW, although I wouldn't ACTIVELY support the destruction of the middle class if the collateral damage to defeating the capitalists IS the middle class, that would be unfortunate, but necessary. Because by the time this country is ready to attempt some sort of socialist system and the overthrow the "dictatorship of the bourgeoisie", the middle class will have shrunk to a sliver anyway. AND THE REST OF US WILL BE FIGHTING FOR OUR VERY LIVES.

[drm604]

8. Exposure.

People need to know about this.

They need to know that the Kochs are doing this and they need to know to ignore the ads they run. They should be suspicious of anyone supported by the Kochs.

We need to make the name Koch a political kiss of death.

[emulatorloo]

12. Every ad is a pack of lies. How to make people know that when a new one comes on?

Same thing with the Rove Crossroads ads.

They basically appeal to our lizard brains, very nasty very powerful

[socialist_n_TN]

21. Conflate the Rove ads with the Koch ads..........

Make them both the same. Rove works for the John Birch Society through the Koch brothers and the Koch brothers are trying to make us all work for nothing. There. A single sentence. And say it's been proved. Even if it hasn't been proven, YET, there's enough evidence POINTING in that direction to make it believable.

This is WAR folks and strict truth is the first casualty of war.

[emulatorloo]

33. I'm assuming Koch Bros fund Crossroads GPS. But Crossroads doesn't have to disclose.

[socialist_n_TN]

52. Yeah that's what I meant by evidence POINTS to.....

the conflation of the John Birch Society and Karl Rove. :) Since they don't have to disclose, we have to go in inference.

[Junkdrawer]

9. "oligarchy fronted by a fake democracy".... Ummm, that boat has sailed. n/t

[Greybnk48]

18. You believe it's a fait accompli?

Man I hope not.

[old mark]

24. Many or our basic "rights" ended with the passage of the "Patriot Act"...

and now the social programs and laws that made the US workers relatively independent and free are being taken...I am very glad I decided decades ago to not have kids. I would not want them living in what this country is becoming.


mark

[Greybnk48]

43. I've got three kids and a grandson who's 2/12

I'm feeling panicky. And I agree with you about the Patriot Act. I was behind Russ Feingold 100% about that and very proud of his stance.

[JuniperLea]

15. My beloved NOVA!!

Brought to me by David Koch... saw it last night... at least part of his tax deduction is helping out... until he finds a way to manipulate.

[Iris]

120. They already have. See the New Yorker article from last fall

It's linked to from here (but this gives you a pick of one of the Koch bros and his hot young wife) -

http://www.observer.com/2010/culture/could-david-koch-be-calling-shots-pbss-emnovaem

[babsbunny]

22. Here is the video

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#42256716

[Greybnk48]

31. Thanks babsbunny. I just watched it again

and feel totally sick. But I think we NEED to watch it, so thank you.

[lunatica]

27. Let's hope they keep funding people like Scott Walker to destroy them

Scott Walker is toast, but better still, he's taking a few Republicans down with him.

[revolutionnow45]

29. found this interesting blog- I think it is worse than people realize

And where did Fred Koch get these ideas?

Information connecting Ilse Koch (nee Kohler) is hard to find. It’s mainly fragments, pieces of information that connect the American and German Kochs and this connection gives a clear image of the sentiment behind the Tea Party and conservative American politics since the 1950s. Where is the connection between the German Koch’s and Fred Koch? Besides evidence the American Koch was related to Ilse’s family, Erich Koch, a high level Nazi official in charge of Prussia, invites Fred Koch to sell his oil in Nazi Germany when he is banned from doing business in the US. After the fall of Nazi Germany, Erich Koch and Fred expand the oil empire to the Soviet Union. Erich Koch had been in charge of Prussia for Hitler so his ties to the Soviet Union ran deep. A few years later the Soviets took Fred Koch’s oil and prosecuted Erich for war crimes. Fred Koch returned to the US, became a FLAMING anti-communist, and was allowed to do business in the States again. Fred Koch admired Mussolini’s tactics against Communism, and it is when he embraces this sort of thinking that he becomes a staunch opponent of civil rights.

Ilse and her husband Karl were tried by the SS before the war ended, accused of corruption. Karl Otto Koch was tried and sentenced to death in Nazi Germany, for incitement to murder and embezzlement. He was executed by firing quad on April 5th, 1945. After the war, Ilse was arrested in the German American Zone, tried in front of a tribunal and sentenced. Ilse committed suicide by hanging herself, in prison, in 1967. She was the only woman to be found guilty of war crimes in World War II.

I am including some more specific information about certain members of the Koch-Kohler family, for clarification and to give further evidence of the generations of hate within the Koch family.

Erich Koch

Erich Koch was a high ranking Nazi official in the Ukraine, with control of the Gestapo and the police. His domain was extended from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea; he captured ethnic German, Polish, Belarus and Ukrainians, declaring that “Ukraine children need no schools. What they’ll have to learn will be taught them by their German masters” and “If I meet a Ukrainian worthy of being seated at my table, I must have him shot..”.

Koch worked together with the General Plenipotentiary for Labor Deployment, providing the Reich with forced labor. Erich Koch faced charges of war crimes for the extermination of 400,000 Poles, but was never indicted for his crimes in Ukraine. He was sentenced to death on March 9, 1959 by the district court in Warsaw for having planned, prepared and organized the mass murder of civilians. Many people, including Russian historians, believe he possessed information about art looted by the Nazis during the war.
Years after the war, Koch stood trial in Poland and was convicted in 1959 of war crimes and sentenced to death. The sentence was commuted to life imprisonment a year later.

Brother of Erich Koch, Karl Otto Koch

(August 2, 1897 – April 5, 1945) A colonel in the German SS, Karl was the first commandant of the Nazi concentration camps at Buchenwald. On August 1, 1937 he was given command of the new concentration camp at Buchenwald. Investigations into his improper conduct at Buchenwald included corruption, fraud, embezzlement, drunkenness, sexual offenses and a murder. Koch’s orders to kill prisoners at the camp were revealed, as well as embezzlement of property stolen from prisoners, and he was executed by firing squad. (I have read numerous accounts that state the Nazis were not all the upset about anything else except the embezzling.)

Ilse Koch

Koch married Ilse Köhler with whom he had a son and two daughters. Köhler later became known as “The Witch of Buchenwald.” She was accused of taking souvenirs from the skin of murdered inmates with distinctive tattoos. These rumors were never verified, but the mythos continues to this day, most famously “Hitler’s Lampshades”. She built an indoor sports arena, which cost over 250,000 marks, most of which were taken from the inmates. Ilse was arrested by the Gestapo for embezzlement of SS funds and the murder of certain inmates in an attempt to cover up these crimes.

She was tried for war crimes by an American military tribunal in 1947. Prosecuting her was future United States Court of Claims Judge Robert L. Kunzig. She was charged with ”participating in a criminal plan for aiding, abetting and participating in the murders at Buchenwald.” The court found that Ilse Koch was a willing participant in the horrors that occurred at Buchenwald. The tribunal found Koch guilty and sentenced her to life imprisonment. After she had served two years, General Lucius D. Clay, the interim military governor of the American Zone in Germany, pardoned her. Owing to international condemnation, however, Koch was re-arrested in 1949 and tried before a West German court for instigation to murder in 135 cases. She was sentenced to life imprisonment on January 15, 1951. She committed suicide by hanging herself in prison on September 1, 1967

Fred Chase Koch

(September 23, 1900 – November 17, 1967) chemical engineer and founded the TEXACO oil refinery firm that later became Koch Industries (Chevron). Koch and its customers were sued for patent infringement, process for turning crude oil into gasoline. Litigation effectively put Winkler-Koch out of business in the U.S. for several years. In other words, Koch was banned. Koch turned his focus to foreign markets, including the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, reportedly with the help of Erich Koch. During his time in the Soviet Union, Fred Koch came to despise communism and Josef Stalin’s regime “a land of hunger, misery and terror”.

Fred C. Koch married Mary Robinson in Kansas City, Missouri in 1932. They had four sons, Frederick (b. 1933), Charles (b. 1935), David (b. 1940) and William (b. 1940). His sons are Charles de Ganahl Koch and David H. Koch.

The New York Times on Charles and David:

“Koch Industries began with oil in the 1930s and now also spews an array of industrial products, from Dixie cups to Lycra, not unlike DuPont’s portfolio of paint and plastics. Sometimes the biological DNA persists as well. The Koch brothers’ father, Fred, was among the select group chosen to serve on the Birch Society’s top governing body. In a recorded 1963 speech that survives in a University of Michigan archive, he can be heard warning of “a takeover” of America in which Communists would “infiltrate the highest offices of government in the U.S. until the president is a Communist, unknown to the rest of us”. (That speech could be delivered as is at any Tea Party rally today, and has been, in one form or another.) article cont:

Last week the Kochs were shoved unwillingly into the spotlight by the most comprehensive journalistic portrait of them yet, written by Jane Mayer of The New Yorker. Her article caused a stir among those in Manhattan’s liberal elite who didn’t know that David Koch, widely celebrated for his cultural philanthropy, is not merely another rich conservative Republican but the founder of the Americans for Prosperity Foundation, which, as Mayer writes with some understatement, “has worked closely with the Tea Party since the movement’s inception”. To New Yorkers who associate the David H. Koch Theater at Lincoln Center with the New York City Ballet, it’s startling to learn that the Texas branch of that foundation’s political arm, known simply as Americans for Prosperity, gave its Blogger of the Year Award to an activist who had called President Obama “cokehead in chief.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/03/11/the-koch-family-a-legacy-of-hate-part-one/

[Greybnk48]

38. I bookmarked this to re-read later.

there's a lot to digest here. Thank you.

[defendandprotect]

53. Involvement with Nazis has to put them close to Prescott Bush and Allen Dulles....

and their front companies to finance Hitler -- ship US gold to him.

Raise capital for him from elites all over the world -- including

America!

Certainly many of these elites were involved in trying to assassinate

FDR -- see: Brig. Gen. Smedley Darlington Butler -- who blew the

whistle on them. There were actually USHR Hearings -- but many elite

names were protected. Don't think the Hearings/Reports were ever

released?

Post WWII -- Dulles was active in moving Nazism to America --

brought in tens of thousands of Nazis under Operation Paperclip --

Founded the CIA with these Nazis and funneled others into the FBI and

other government agencies. Evidently, JFK had come to find out about

a lot of this.

[blm]

62. Just scratch any Fascist Circle of the last 100 years, Bushes, Dulles and Kochs will pop up.

.

[glinda]

75. Good info.

[bear425]

70. you should post this on its own as an OP

This info needs to be shared widely.

[jwirr]

128. One added item: Fred Koch's father was Henry Koch and he immigrated

from Germany (most likely Darmstadt) in 1888. The relationship between Erich and Karl and Henry would probably be a grandfather if there is one. I do some genealogy but I do not have international research that could trace this. It would be interesting.

Further given that they were trading with Germany someone should revisit the National Archives files on Prescott Bush to see if the Koch name in in any of these papers.

[Old and In the Way]

32. Soros vs. Koch

Funny you really don't hear nearly as much reference to the Koch Brothers as you do about how George Soros funds the Left. Soros funds democracy projects...Soros funds political movements that benefit their businesses. Here's a very handy infographic that details both - I know what side I prefer to be associated with-

http://planetsave.com/2011/02/17/soros-vs-koch-brothers-infographic/

[Greybnk48]

40. This is very cool. I shared it on F.B.

which is where I do most of my campaigning against these people. Thank you for posting.

[Politicalboi]

35. We need a movie

I've said it before. Maybe Michael Moore will do one. We need to wake the average Joe's up who don't pay much attention to politics till late October or the day of the election. I don't watch Dyligan. I watch The Daily Show rerun instead. He's to Repukish to me.

[Greybnk48]

41. He is repukish usually, that's why I always turn him off.

Not today, and I'm so glad I left it on. Babsbunny and someone else posted the link to the segment and I urge you to watch it.

edit: Emulaterloo posted it also.

[emulatorloo]

39. VIDEO LINK of the segment here: "Ratigan and guests discuss Koch bros piece taken down from Playboy

Ratigan and guests discuss Koch bros piece taken down from Playboy.com - MUST SEE video
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=734017&mesg_id=734017

[defendandprotect]

100. Playboy piece was "taken down" ... ??

Thanks, save the video link to watch later --

[bluestate10]

45. "Afraid". I see that word written many times by progressives.

Tea party candidates succeed only when democratic voters sit at home or waste their votes. Which brings me to another peeve, I read a desire to waste votes written often by some progressives. Better to waste a vote and get a Scott Walker running a state or a George W Bush running our country and go home a feel good until the reality of that vote smacks you right between the eyes. Stop being "afraid", instead use logic and the acknowledge that some progress forward be better than big steps backward.

[Greybnk48]

48. Just because I'm afraid, doesn't mean I'm idle.

I've been to Madison 3 times in bitter cold at $45 a pop for gas, not to mention food. I'm currently volunteering to recall Walker which is just starting in my area. I don't sit home and quake, but inside I have a seed crystal of fear given what we are up against. A lot of $ and power, and they own the media and control the message.

I agree with blm. This video should go viral!

[TheKentuckian]

49. They also have funded what has become the dominant ideology in our party too.

The scope of the situation is well beyond "centrist" reckoning or solutions.

The TeaPubliKlans do the horror show and Democrats do the slow grind/heavy lifting stuff and at best do about nothing to roll back opposition advances and instead actually publicly seek compromise toward their absurd and toxic positions.

Playing this game is a losing proposition. Our "democracy" is a facade.

[bvar22]

86. Sadly, I agree.

Simply Voting for the Democrat won't solve our problems.

In 2008, the American People gave The Democrats:
1)The White House
2)A BIG MAJORITY in the House
3)A Filibuster Proof Majority in The Senate

4) and most importantly, a HUGE MANDATE for CHANGE


:shrug:




Who will STAND and represent THIS American Majority?
Rhetoric, broken promises, and excuses mean NOTHING now.
"By their WORKS you will know them,"
and by their WORKS they will be judged.

[Love Bug]

121. This battle would be easier if we didn't have to fight it on two fronts

We spend so much energy trying to get DEMOCRATS to act like DEMOCRATS we don't have a lot left to fight the right-wing, too. I, for one, would be THRILLED if elected Democrats started supporting, oh, I don't know, THE DEMOCRATIC PLATFORM. Here's the latest (2008) national version:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5580817/2008-Democratic-Party-Platform-Renewing-Americas-Promise

From democrats.org:

For over 200 years, Democrats have stood for the idea that wealth and status should not be an entitlement to rule. Democrats recognize that our country and our economy are strongest when they provide opportunity for all Americans—when we grow our country from the bottom up.

Democrats stand for an abiding faith in the judgment of hardworking American families, and a commitment to helping the excluded, the disenfranchised and the poor strengthen our nation by earning themselves a piece of the American Dream. We remember that our country was sculpted by immigrants and slaves, their children and grandchildren. Even today, it is our diversity above all else that provides us with our enduring strength.

Democrats believe that each of us has an obligation to each other, to our neighbors and our communities. Each of us has a role to play in creating our future—and while we have made great progress as a nation, we know that our work is never done.

[bluestate10]

135. Be careful. 200 years ago, democrats stood for slavery.

The republican party was created by Lincoln and others to essentially stop the spread of slavery into new US territories, democrats were for the spread of slavery. How is that for the elite having entitlement?

The important kernel is that roles have flipped since Wilson and later FDR. Democrats have stood for hope and progress for every man, woman and child for the last 90 years. Republicans have opposed that goal and resorted to extra constitutional means to have their way. The fight is a modern fight.

[Love Bug]

141. I'm not talking about going into the past.

I'm not sure how you got that from my post. I'm not talking about blind adherence to a particular platform (although there is not much in the current one I disagree with). I'm tired of Democrats running on a platform they conveniently forget once elected.

Why do we have to constantly remind Democrats that they are supposed to be for the middle class? They talk about supporting the middle class in their platform but where are the jobs creation bills to put us back to work? How about the unemployed? We've been completely forgotten. Wait a minute -- we're not completely forgotten! Repub governors are now trying to cut the # of weeks of unemployment for us. They couldn't do it on a national level so now they are doing it state by state.

[nashville_brook]

50. mark ames and yasha lavigne -- ames is taibbi's old pal

http://exiledonline.com/

This is a daily must read.

[Greybnk48]

51. Bookmarked, thanks!

[blm]

57. Thankyou!

.

[UTUSN]

63. "TeaBaggery" -- I like it: The word, the put-down word, not them that I like. n/t

[blindpig]

67. This has been going on forever....

http://socialistindependent.org/anax01.htm

You'll have that with capitalism, the rich will use all of their resources to maintain the status quo so favorable to them.

[Hutzpa]

77. We have to change the dynamics

for instance; we could say/write articles with headings such as The Koch brothers taking your job away,
The Koch brothers are against unions etc.

The more articles that are out there regarding the Koch brothers the more people will become aware
of their malignant duplicity.

It's a lot of work but it can be done, progressives made the internet what it is today, so lets use
it to our advantage.

[spedtr90]

80. Beck's chalkboard

So few lines needed to map out this conspiracy.
A real danger to America, but it doesn't fit the big right-wing lie, so it won't make Beck's chalkboard. It really needs to make the news everywhere.
Will the Tea Party dupes get it at last???

[white_wolf]

81. You want a real democracy?

Here are a few steps that must be taken: 1. We must get rid of a majoritarianism winner take all election system. This two-party system creates an Oligarchy. We need a system of proportional representation that would all all parties to have a chance at gaining office Imagine what a coalition of Greens and Socialists could get done? 2. We need full pubic financing of all campaigns. 3. Limit the power of corporations by giving more power to their workers. I propose having all boards being made up of 50% of the workers or to go even more extreme have them turned into co-ops.

[librechik]

83. yes, exactly--but try getting those done in a corporate owned Congress.

That is the real problem. (not to mention the corporate -owned media.)

[bluestate10]

136. Change starts locally. Drive change on the local level.

If you put energy into that, Washington and it's politicians become largely irrelevant.

[BetsysGhost]

82. .

inside the abyss

[DutchLiberal]

90. The US already is an oligarchy and Obama & the Dems are complicit in it...

If you believe the Dems are not bought and paid for by corporate America; and if you still believe the Dems are working for the people; and if you believe it makes much difference which party is in office...

think again.

[Greybnk48]

96. It still make a difference whose in office for women's rights

to some degree the environment, and for the poor and elderly (the vulnerable). It may not be as big a difference as it once was, but still a difference. Especially for women's rights which are under siege right now.

[DutchLiberal]

124. To the poor and elderly it doesn't make one single difference. The women, I'll give you...

But those women best not want decent payment, universal healthcare or decent education, because the Dems are not going to give it to them.

[jwirr]

95. We need to begin to recognize that we are truly fighting corporations

and people of great wealth and power. They have the upper hand and are not hindered by any kind of moral values. Not to mention that they have been destroying our infrastructure for years - beginning with out sourcing which makes us very dependent on the very enemy we are fighting. They control our medicines, our sources of energy, our distribution system for food and many other necessities. They also own all too many of our politicians.

We are in a fight for our very lives when we go up against them. We should also not fool ourselves that they do not know about oil depletion and climate change. They are gearing up to use these disasters against us to their advantage. This is going to be the worst type of feudalism that the world has ever seen.

If we do not stop fighting among ourselves and concentrate on what is really happening we will not have a chance in hell of winning this battle.

[louis-t]

99. It's like a giant monopoly game to them.

[Mojeoux]

103. That we know these names at all is a win for us.

These guys have been hiding behind, big-oil, big-pharma, big ag, and of course the military industrial complex. They've been anonymous for all this time and now we know who they are.
The "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" part of this political debate is over.

Now at least we know who has been behind the curtain.

John Birchers? Jeeze!

[Greybnk48]

111. Koch Industries is TEXACO and CHEVRON

FYI.

[deaniac21]

107. I'm keeping my eye on them....

[certainot]

108. only way it can happen is if the left ignores RW talk radio. oh, it is....

those 1000 unchallenged think tank-coordinated radio stations pounding 50 mil a week with pro corporate propaganda is why we're in this mess and the fringe right is accepted as mainstream.

without the talk radio monopoly and the free speech free ride it gets to create made to order pro-corporate consituencies to elect and enable and intimidate politicians and media they wouldn't have any more than money has always had in america- enough to slow things down, but not enough to send things backward like we've had for the last 20 years, since reagan killed the fairness doctrine.

[certainot]

110. here's a link to help you keep things in perspective- the roots of fascism....

and where dictators come from

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnrfuTUlqVs

[StarburstClock]

117. Boycott anything ever connected to them, like banks, stores, products, etc...

and spread the information that those things are connected.

[bluestate10]

137. A more effective boycott is starting or supporting companies that offer

alternative products and which largely support our cause. But the typical DU progressive seems to be so blindly anti-capitalist that supporting even good capitalists is beneath them. Meanwhile, the right marches forward.

[rhett o rick]

119. I cant see a way out for us. If someone has a way, please share. nm

[Shagbark Hickory]

140. Oh you heard this on the Dylan Ratigan show, didja?

Well that explains it then.

[Greybnk48]

142. Watch the video.

And then give something other than ad hominem; something with substance.

[Shagbark Hickory]

144. I don't need to watch it. I'm already angry.