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What did the Fiscal Commission report actually SAY about Social Security?

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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 03:57 PM
Original message
What did the Fiscal Commission report actually SAY about Social Security?
The recommendations did not get the required 14 votes, but Obama said he would have his staff "look" at it to see if there were parts he could include in his budget recommendations.

This has some people freaking out, swearing up and down that the whole purpose was/is to dismantle Social Security.

But what did the commission's report actually SAY about Social Security?

PDF: http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf
Goggle "Quick View" HTML version: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:i1_akxmf7IkJ:www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf+fiscal+commission&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgt44xzOVWdwkeL6QRF00A3Q5KGdABEvpyWht_InJBVs1sJwUcX26Tzx8thAe5dN9U2eExpge4-mozHWWXVQ6nv2T4MGO8zOzXmVIsvfJnjl1qW7AmYtLiK225zRyeV0n3ixsG9&sig=AHIEtbTAVUh13RPNpxx9lAA5WjyKcRTufw

Social Security is the foundation of economic security for millions of Americans. More than 50 million Americans – living in about one in four households – receive Social Security benefits,with about 70 percent going to retired workers and families, and the rest going to disabledworkers and survivors of deceased workers. Social Security is far more than just a retirement program – it is the keystone of the American social safety net, and it must be protected.
(emhpasis added)

Sure, it includes some adjustments that some call "cuts". It does recommend tying the COLA to "chained CPI" which most experts agree is more accurate. It does recommend raising the retirement age 1 month every 2 years beyond the current re-indexing, so that the retirement age will be raised to 68 in 2050 and eventually 69 in 2075. Which, considering the improvements in health care, is not that bad if you think about it.

But it also has many recommendations that Progressives should love:
- RECOMMENDATION 5.1: MAKE RETIREMENT BENEFIT FORMULA MORE PROGRESSIVE.... the Commission proposes gradually moving to a more progressive benefit formula that slows future benefit growth, particularly for higher earners.
- RECOMMENDATION 5.2: REDUCE POVERTY BY PROVIDING AN ENHANCED MINIMUM BENEFIT FOR LOW-WAGE WORKERS.
- RECOMMENDATION 5.3: ENHANCE BENEFITS FOR THE VERY OLD AND THE LONG-TIME DISABLED.
- RECOMMENDATION 5.5: GIVE RETIREES MORE FLEXIBILITY IN CLAIMING BENEFITS AND CREATE A HARDSHIP EXEMPTION FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT WORK BEYOND 62.
- RECOMMENDATION 5.6: GRADUALLY INCREASE THE TAXABLE MAXIMUM TO COVER 90 PERCENT OF WAGES BY 2050 (yes, ladies and gentlemen, they recommend RAISING THE CAP!)
- RECOMMENDATION 5.8: COVER NEWLY HIRED STATE AND LOCAL WORKERS AFTER 2020.

Oh, and as for Medicare, the report recommends increasing funds to find and reduce fraud, and notes that some members recommend adding a "robust Public Option" to the current exchanges and "moving toward some type of all-payer system".

There are a LOT of other recommendations, including reducing Defense Spending, automatic triggers for Unemployment benefits extensions, and many others that Progressives will love.

It's hardly a call to "dismantle Social Security and Medicare" as some bloggers have claimed. I highly recommend people actually read the report before making obviously unfounded claims.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Complete BS - unrec.
The DLC has been trying to dismantle Social Security for years. I did an OP on this awhile back with cites: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TBF/26
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Not BS. The items the OP stated are in there. You can't make them disappear by calling it BS.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. The intent of the OP is to tell us it is not Obama's intention to dismantle SS -
while all the evidence points to the contrary. Fail.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Yes, that is the point. But what evidence do you have to present?
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:35 PM by johnaries
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. Obviously you did not read the journal entry I pointed you to -
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:45 PM by TBF
The DLC attack on Social Security -
Posted by TBF in General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010)
Tue Dec 07th 2010, 06:51 AM
In the first State of the Union address I got chills when President Obama stated that we need to "have a conversation" about Social Security:

"To preserve our long-term fiscal health, we must also address the growing costs in Medicare and Social Security. Comprehensive health care reform is the best way to strengthen Medicare for years to come. And we must also begin a conversation on how to do the same for Social Security, while creating tax-free universal savings accounts for all Americans."

Read the entire text of the speech here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office... ... / updated link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-state-union-address

Now in his big "compromise" with the Republicans we are told they will call for a 2-percentage-point cut in employees' Social Security payroll taxes that would add $120 billion to the deficit. I guess they won't be needing higher payroll taxes if they are cutting the program. cite: http://beta.courierpostonline.com/article/20101207/NEWS05/101207022/1006/NEWS01

This is not something he came up with yesterday - they've been planning it. This has wall street all over it - who do you think will be making fees off these "universal savings accounts"? Of course this is not new, the DLC has been trying to push this through for quite some time: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=125&su... (read the entire article - with emphasis on this statement "Maybe the proposal will help both the Left and the Right "get" one of the fundamental tenets of the Third Way: progressive goals can best be achieved through market means.") Updated DLC link just in case: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=125&subid=165&contentid=695

Bottom line: Obama has been able to accomplish for the DLC what Clinton was unable to do - they have purged the party of progressive ideas. We are now a party of free market worshipers, supporting union-busting and other free market approaches.

We have no left. The hard left was purged in the 1950's and the progressives are now purged. Congratulations DLC: million accomplished.


Edited to update some links.

Link here (inside you can also click on the sources to read all back-up info): http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TBF/26
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. All rhetoric and "cherry-picking"
"This is not something he came up with yesterday - they've been planning it."

Where's your evidence?

And his statement says "And we must also begin a conversation on how to do the same for Social Security, while creating tax-free universal savings accounts for all Americans."

So, the first priority is saving Social Security. As for the second part about "universal savings accounts" - remember that Social Security was never intended to be a full pension program. It was created as a supplement and as a safety net. I'm planning on retiring in 15 years, and you better believe I have additional savings for my retirement.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. I can't teach you to read -
and as for intentions re Social Security you are dead wrong on that as well.

In fact, Dwight Eisenhower says it better so I will quote him - "Those opposed to the initiative stressed their belief that retirement income was the responsibility of every individual and the federal government should not be involved. One citizen should not have to pay for the old age necessities of another. President Eisenhower responded to this notion during his press conference on June 17, 1953 with these remarks: “A strict application, let us say, of economic theory, at least as taught by Adam Smith, would be, ‘Let these people take care of themselves; during their active life they are supposed to save enough to take care of themselves.’ In this modern industry, dependent as we are on mass production, and so on, we create conditions where that is no longer possible for everybody. So the active part of the population has to take care of all the population, and if they haven’t been able during the course of their active life to save up enough money, we have these systems.”

cite (not that you will read it, but others might): http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/social-security.htm

Of course after reading today that Mr. Obama is supporting dog murderer Michael Vick, and in light of his being more reactionary than republicans on the funding of social security, there's not a chance in hell of me voting for him again anyway.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
70. Oh, I can read.
I disagree with Obama's alleged support of Vick, but that's a separate issue.

How is he being "more reactionary than Republicans on the funding of social security"? There is no evidence of that. There is no evidence that he is planning to "dismantle" SS as many fear-mongers have claimed.

and addressing your Ike quote: "So the active part of the population has to take care of all the population, and if they haven’t been able during the course of their active life to save up enough money, we have these systems.”

To quote FDR upon signing SS: "We can never insure 100 percent of the population against 100 percent of the hazards and vicissitudes of life, but we have tried to frame a law which will give some measure of protection to the average citizen and to his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-stricken old age."

It was not intended as a pension plan, but as a safety-net.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
111. I can call bullshit on expensive dressing added to a poison ivy salad, though
I don't give a flying fuck what you add to it--NOTHING justifies cutting benefits for current retirees. Life expectancy increases have been minamal for people at lower income levels, and have DECREASED for low income women. Therefore raising the retirement age (a major slash in lifetime benefits) and raising the age you can collect is very much worse than that.

Anyone calling for raising the age of collecting benefits fom 62 to 64 is a sociopath who should be put up against a wall and shot for advocating mass murder.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Raising the retirement age is the only thing that truly disturbs me, but if they do...
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:07 PM by phleshdef
...its not very realistic to think that whatever they raise it to will even be relevant in 40 years. Considering that all government programs over the last 40 years and the 40 years before that underwent many changes, both good and bad, its not likely that a decision made today will have much bearing over the condition the system or the country will be in by then.

The thing about raising the retirement age in the fashion they are suggesting is that the politics of it are going to be sour no matter what. I think they should just drop that. In 20 or 30 years, if the predictions are true and 65 year olds have the health of modern 50-55 year olds, then that should mean we are saving a lot more money on medicare. If thats the case, then the fact that they are living longer and thus collecting more social security benefits should balance out to a certain degree.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. You make a good point.
In 20 or 30 years, if the predictions are true and 65 year olds have the health of modern 50-55 year olds, then that should mean we are saving a lot more money on medicare. If thats the case, then the fact that they are living longer and thus collecting more social security benefits should balance out to a certain degree.


Some may argue that people would live longer BECAUSE of increased Medicare spending. However, part of the focus on saving is to increase preventative care. This would both increase lifespan and decrease spending.

You have a very good point.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Evolution will change the health of 65-year-olds?
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Nothing, actually, they blew their deadline and didn't get the required votes
But that won't matter, because the Commission's "findings" are going to be cherry-picked for whatever the hell people want to do anyway. The Commission's "work" will be cited for the "bipartisan" prerequisite to perpetrate all kinds of mischief in the coming year. That mischief will include means testing of social security benefits, reduction of benefits for future retirees, and shock that the "social security holiday" will reduce the solvency of the program, which result in a public panic that Something Needs To Be Done, and NOW to "save" social security. None of the proposed fixes will do that, but anyone who notices that, or questions the legitimacy of the Commission will be dismissed as some kind of nit-picker who is Not Serious About Fixing Social Security. They will then be ignored or, when noticed, derided as fools.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. bullshit. they say it must be protected while they recommend destroying it.
orwellian bullshit.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Which recommendations actually "destroy" social security?
Even the ones I don't like would not even come close to destroying it.

Its pretty hard to make such a looney argument when they recommended raising the cap. Thats the exact opposite of destruction.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Means testing, raising the retirement age, changing the COLA...ALL CUTS
They only proposed raising the cap to capture 90%, which is barely anything. As it is now, it captures 84%.

http://www.ncpssm.org/news/archive/Analysis_of_Commission_Co_Chairs_Proposal/
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Okay. So if we started cutting national defense spending, would you say we are destroying it?
I don't like the idea of cutting anything on the benefits side of social security. We are on the same page there. But thats still far from destruction.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. all these cuts lead to the unravelling of the program. Will it be destroyed overnight? No.
Please consider this. As it is now, we all pay FICA taxes and are all eligible for SS. If you start means testing it, it loses all political support. These proposals begin means testing at the price point of a worker who earns an average 43,000 a year...does that sound fair to you? Why on earth would anyone support Social Security if they knew they would get paid a pittance of it.

Also, raising the retirement age is a benefit cut. People will be forced onto disability or will be unable to find employment and will have to file early. If you file early, you receive significantly reduced benefits. Just because the wealthy live longer, does not mean all workers will be healthy enough to do so.

All these proposed changes fundamentally change the universal nature of the program.

In short, Social Security is not in crisis therefore should never be looked for to make cuts. The gov't owes SS $2.6 trillion in bonds. They simply don't want to pay the piper. Therefore, deficit commissions and false cries about how we need to "cut" Social Security.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. I'm not sure I buy that it will unravel them. I think it would make them slightly less beneficial.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:39 PM by phleshdef
And I don't agree with making them slightly less beneficial, let alone significantly less beneficial. Lets make sure I'm clear on that.

But either way, I think its a gross overstatement to call it "destruction".
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
127. i guess semantically we'll agree to disagree. I find it unconscionable
to eff with a program that is trillions in surplus and is extremely successful the way it is. We can adjust it later on to ensure 100% solvency, but I do not agree that cuts are the way to do that. Lift the SS cap entirely, raise FICA taxes on high income earner a fraction of a percent and we are there.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
49. re raising the retirement age: the report does mention a "hardship" provision for those
age 62 who cannot work due to disability. That needs to be expanded, of course, to people who have been worn down by brutally hard physical labor. Secondly, there needs to be -- but I don't know how -- some stronger safeguards against age discrimination. Otherwise, raising the age for eligibility won't work out well at all. We will have dislocation and instant poverty for many, many people...
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #49
123. That provision was not well fleshed out and seems like some half assed throw in
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
79. +1000
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Also, our national defense spending is absurd. It could definitely be cut
and we will still be paying much more than other countries. I value programs like Social Security much more than overblown defense budgets.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. Of course it is. I think defense should be cut dramatically. That still wouldn't be "destroying" it.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:37 PM by phleshdef
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Hardly the same.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. It is the same. If "cut = destroy" on one budget item, then it must mean that for all of them.
I'm just pointing out the double standard behind the hyperbole.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
71. not about cuts. about the deform of the financing structure. which = "destroy"
because it undercuts popular support.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #71
97. How does making it solvent = "destroy"?
You are working from a false assumption. There is nothing in any proposal that will undercut popular support.

The facts simply do not support your assumption.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #97
121. Raising full-benefits age. I hope you plan to like your job for a long, long time.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #97
124. You are not reading the facts. SS can be made solvent by lifting the cap entirely
or another method called the Northwestern plan advanced by Bruce Webb: http://www.angrybearblog.com/2009/05/nw-plan-for-real-social-security-fix.html

Noone disagrees that Social Security will need to have its finances boosted in 2037 when it can only pay 78% of promised benefits. But what we are all upset about, is this false sense of urgency to cut benefits in order to do something that could be fixed quite frankly some years down the road when we have our economy fixed first. There are far more pressing matters to deal with than making cuts to a program that is in surplus for another 20 plus years.

It does not need to be cut to be made solvent, end of story.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
64. The COLA could reduce or increase SS payments
It depends on what actually shakes out in the economy and in consumer activity -- either cuts or increases are easily modeled in the future.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
98. And repeating the original question - how is that "destroying" SS?
I would like to see the cap raised even farther, but still there is nothing here that suggests that Obama is planning to "destroy" SS.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #98
128. Have you read all the recent articles where he says he wants to "reform" SS?
Obama supports the cuts in the Bowles Simpson plan. Logically speaking, if he wants to "reform" SS he will use their suggestions and cripple a successful program that is currently in surplus. We need to ask ourselves why he is so fixated on Social SEcurity in the first place when it is not in crisis.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. raising the cap to 90% is merely fulfilling the original design of the program.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:13 PM by Hannah Bell
that they recommend taking 40 years to do this = ridiculous.

and it ensures it will never be done.

thus giving the rich a free ride once more.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yes, that is correct. It was always supposed to capture 90% but they let it fall behind to 86
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Well if you believe taking 40 years means never...
...then a lot of what they are recommending shouldn't be worried about at all, since a lot of it is phased in over a long period of time the same way.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. It will affect me directly. I will be retiring in 40 years. so yes I care.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. You need to re-read what you just responded to, because you totally didn't get it.
The person I was posting that to made the statement that "over 40 years" means "it will never happen". If that person honestly believes that for one proposed item, then they must believe it for all proposed items if they wish to be consistent.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. um, 90% was in the original social security legislation. why should they take 40 years
to phase that in when they've already hiked ss retirement age twice?
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. I didn't say they should. I was just responding to your logic.
You said that because of the long time frame of implementation, they will never do it. In order to be consistent, you must also not be worried about raising the retirement age or any of the other items that are proposed to happen over XX years time.

So I guess what I'm saying is if you believe the cap raise won't happen, then you must also believe that many of the other things won't happen either and thus you shouldn't express concern over them.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Whoops, my error. that was the earlier deficit commission.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:42 PM by Hannah Bell



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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. It seems to me like you will believe any negative outcomes and zero positive outcomes...
...for the sake of being contrarian.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. it seems to me that after getting robbed for 30 years one would be well-advised to pay attention
every time the fuckers do anything to ss.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #45
103. Oooh! Kin-ky! How, exactly, have we been "robbed" for 30 years?
I'm listening.

More fear-mongering without any substantiation.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #103
129. Wow, you must really hate Social Security! What he was commenting on
what the fact that boomers have been paying double FICA taxes to cover their SS payments since in 83 the Greenspan commission saw the boomer wave as a future issue for SS. Now, after paying double for 30 years, the gov't is starting to say oh waa we can't pay your SS and need to enact cuts. When he said "robbing" he was referring to the gov't borrowing the SS surplus to pay for other things. Actually, SS trillion surplus has been masking the true size of our deficit for years. The gov't doesn't want to pay the piper, which is why we are hearing about "shared sacrifice" and necessary cuts.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
65. But you're acting like a 60-year-long retirement age increase has already happened
Which is it? Does phasing things in gradually make them never happen, or should we act like they're about to happen tomorrow?
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Which recommendations actually "destroy" social security?
Further reducing COLA's will lessen the benefits so much over time it will make SS too low to live on.

The COLA was changed years back, and it has already made SS a bare subsistence for millions of elderly and disabled.

All this dancing about only serves to distract from the real way to keep SS solvent for all time....... just raise the FICA cap and nothing else needs adjusting.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Where, exactly, do they recommend destroying it?
Please read the report. Nowhere do any of their recommendations do anything to "destroy" it. Instead, many of them expand it.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. half the recommendations are for measures which turn it into a welfare program.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Which ones? The ones that make it MORE progressive while still retaining universal payout?
Kinda like the current system except more progressive?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
46. the "progressivity" is what turns it into a welfare program. you want progressivity,
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:45 PM by Hannah Bell
go to the income tax.

oh, that's right, the dems just voted to continue the near-regressive tax policy of bush jr.

CAPITALISTS DON'T PAY FICA TAXES.

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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
90. So, you are against the proposals because they are PROGRESSIVE?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
112. Nothing wrong with fiddling the initial baseline benefits calculation--
--to favor lower income people--they do that now. Means testing is something else--it means that you pay in, but if you are over a certain income level you aren't even eligible for a payout. That would be like totalling your car and getting told by the insurance company they they think you have enough savings to replace the car without their help.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #112
117. The point is the comisssion didn't advocate means testing.
They merely believe the progressive payout should be more progressive (making the curve steeper), they also indicated that it should be considered making payroll taxes progressive also (i.e. say 6% of income from $0 to $100K, then 7% of income from $100K to $500K).

The only people claiming means testing are doing so to falsely attack the commission, because they can't attack them on the merit of what was actually proposed.

Yes means testing would be horrible idea and it likely would turn SS into welfare. Ironically the only place I have seem people advocate "means testing" is here on DU. The thinking is the "the rich don't need it, they don't deserve it so make SS solvent by excluding the rich". Of course as we both agree that likely WOULD destroy SS eventually.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #117
131. The Fiscal Commission deserves to be attacked. Did you see the corporatist
morons they appointed to it? With the exception of Schakowsky and Becerra, the rest were anti-Social Security crusaders.

Means testing was in the Fiscal Commission report. Albeit in a very sneaky and deceptive way via Progressive Price Indexing. Here is analysis that shows how this will begin cutting benefits for people who make $43,000.

Changes to the Benefit Formula

Current Law: Under current law, an individual’s unreduced Social Security benefit, called the primary insurance amount, or PIA, is based on that individual’s lifetime earnings in covered work. The first step in calculating the PIA is to identify the 35 years of highest nominal earnings. These earnings are then indexed for growth in wages. The indexed wages for each year are then added together and converted to average indexed monthly earnings, or AIME.

A benefit formula is then used to convert the AIME into a PIA. Thus, under the current formula, the PIA is the total of 90 percent of the first $761 of AIME plus 32 percent of AIME over 761 through $4,586 plus 15 percent of AIME over $4,586. The percentages in the formula have been constant since 1977. The dollar “bend points” change annually, as they are indexed by growth in wages.

The progressivity of the Social Security benefit derives from the fact that the formula replaces a much higher percentage of the pre-retirement wages of lower-income earners than it does for higher earners. At the same time, the formula assures that higher earners receive benefits that are commensurate with their greater contribution to the program.

Under current law, Social Security contributions and benefits are based on earnings that fall below an annual cap, which currently is $106,800. In the past, the tax cap has been set at a level that covered about 90 percent of all covered earnings. Currently, however, less than 86 percent of earnings are subject to the Social Security payroll tax. This erosion in covered earnings stems from the fact that wages for the highest paid six percent of workers have been rising faster than wages for the vast majority of people who earn less than the cap.

Proposed Change: Although the details of this proposal are not clearly delineated, it appears to alter the bend points in the formula in a manner that yields an across-the-board reduction in benefits for virtually all beneficiaries. The Commission, in its presentation, says that it will, “Gradually move to a more progressive benefit formula by creating a new bend point at the 50th percentile and reducing upper replacing factors slowly over time, phased in by 2050.”

In his estimate, SSA’s chief actuary describes the provision as creating a new bend point at the 50th percentile career-average earnings level, and reducing PIA factors (bend points) to 90/30/10/5 by 2050. The provision would affect individuals becoming eligible for Social Security beginning in 2017.

The Commission also proposes to increase the amount of wages subject to Social Security taxation so that 90 percent of all wages are taxed. This proposal would also create a new 5-percent bend point in the benefit formula that would be applicable to the wages covered by the higher tax cap.

Impact: As stated earlier, the result of this change, by itself, is a reduction in benefits for all future beneficiaries. Starting in 2030, a worker earning approximately $43,000 per year would experience a benefit reduction of almost 5 percent. As the proposal is fully phased in, the resulting reductions, still modest for the lowest paid workers, grow. By 2080, a worker earning approximately $69,000 in 2010 would witness a reduction of almost 23 percent, while a relative high earner, someone earning the taxable maximum of $106,800, would be reduced by 30 percent.

This proposal is a benefit reduction pure and simple. It does nothing to enhance the progressivity of the Social Security program. All workers will see their benefits reduced. There is not a single group of workers who will see a benefit from this change.

As a companion to this change in formula, the Commission also proposes increasing the taxable maximum so that it once more covers 90 percent of all covered wages. (description below). This is an important step in strengthening the financial basis of the Security program, and would reduce the program’s long-term deficit by nearly one-third.

http://www.ncpssm.org/news/archive/Analysis_of_Commission_Co_Chairs_Proposal/
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Read the analysis from Social Security experts...
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Agreed. Double Speak.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Social Security is a huge feather in the cap for Dems. If we allow cuts, we ensure our political
ruin for years to come. It's that simple. Oh sure, we can give billionaires tax breaks but we don't want to pay back the SS treasury money we borrowed. It was real when you contributed it, but now it's "worthless IOUS." The fact that we are even having to have this convo with a Democrat in the White House should be extremely unsettling.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
77. Some guy wrote a book and it's the only thing that predicts the future?
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wow can't believe someone is trying to defend the BS Commission. Here's my response:
Here is analysis from NCPSSM which takes apart each proposal and analyzes how each one will harm Social Security:

A Payroll Tax Holiday in 2011

Current Law: The Social Security program is entirely financed by dedicated taxes, principally those deducted from workers’ earnings, which are matched by employers with an equal amount, and with the self-employed paying comparable amounts. These taxes are paid periodically by employers and the self-employed into the Treasury of the United States. These funds are then transferred from the general fund of the Treasury into the Old-Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance Trust Funds, where they remain available for the purpose of paying the costs of the Social Security program. The primary costs are payment of benefits and the cost of administering the program.

The Board of Trustees of the OASDI Trust Funds report annually on the financial condition of the Social Security program. In the report for 2010, the Trustees estimate that in 2011 the total revenue income to the OASDI Trust Funds, exclusive of interest, will equal about $732 billion. About $707 billion derive from payroll taxes and the rest comes from income taxes collected on benefits paid to Social Security beneficiaries. The total cost of the program in 2011, including payment of benefits and administrative costs, is estimated to be $729.6 billion. Interest income to the Trust Funds for 2011 is estimated to be $118 billion.

Proposed Change: Quoting from the Commission’s report, the proposal is as follows: “Consider a tax holiday in FY 2011. In order to spur short-term economic growth, the Domenici-Rivlin Bipartisan Policy Center Commission recommended a temporary payroll tax holiday in 2011. Assuming it is accompanied by sufficient future deficit reduction, Congress should consider a temporary suspension of one side of the Social Security payroll tax, financed by transfers from general revenue. Though this would cost $50-100 billion in lost revenue (depending on the design), CBO estimates that a payroll tax holiday of this magnitude would result in significant short term economic growth and job creation.”

Impact: Although there would be no effect on the program’s financing or its ability during 2011 to pay benefits or to meet the program’s administrative expenses, assuming timely transfers from the general fund, the proposal raises an important concern.

Throughout its history, the Social Security program has been funded through a dedicated payroll tax, an arrangement that has worked well over the years. Depending on the magnitude of the tax holiday, shifting even a portion of Social Security’s funding away from its payroll tax and onto the general fund of the Treasury is a source of concern, even if done under the banner of economic development. It should be noted, too, that the proposal does not specify whether only employers or workers benefit from the tax holiday.

Change in the Cost-of-Living Adjustment

Current Law: The Social Security Act provides for an automatic increase in Social Security benefits each year if the Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (known as the CPI-W) increases. This Cost-of-Living Adjustment (or COLA) is calculated by comparing costs from the third quarter of the last year to the third quarter of the current year. The purpose of this adjustment is to protect beneficiaries from the effects of rising prices due to inflation, enabling them to maintain a constant standard of living from one year to the next.



Proposed Change: The Fiscal Commission proposes to use a chained consumer price index (chained-CPI) to calculate all COLAs starting December 2011. The chained-CPI attempts to fully account for the effects of economic substitution on changes in the cost of living. The chained-CPI produces lower estimates of inflation than the traditional CPI does, averaging about 0.3 percentage points lower than the increases in the CPI-W since December 2000, the first year such comparisons became possible.

The loss of purchasing power stemming from this provision becomes increasingly severe as beneficiaries age. Possibly in an effort to compensate for the impact of these reductions on older retirees who are more likely to rely on Social Security as their primary source of income, the Fiscal Commission proposes to provide a benefit boost to older retirees most at risk of outliving other retirement resources. The proposal would increase a retiree’s benefit by 5 percent beginning 20 years after eligibility and would be phased in over five years starting in 2011.

Impact: The Commission estimates that implementation of this proposal will address 26 percent of the shortfall in actuarial balance for the program. This proposal will affect current and future beneficiaries uniformly. The impact would occur after benefits are initiated, with each COLA, as the yearly increase in benefits would be slightly lower than would have been the case without the change. The impact would be greater with each successive COLA. For example, the Social Security benefits paid to someone collecting benefits for 10 years would be about 3 percent lower, on average, if the chained-CPI was used for the COLA instead of the current CPI-W. After 20 years the reduction would reach 6 percent from the change in the formula alone. Making matters worse, there would be an additional reduction based on the compounding effect of time.

In addition to the impact on beneficiaries, a technical drawback of using the chained CPI-U is that it is subject to two revisions after the initial release. The CPI-W is not revised, thus making it more suitable for automatic adjustments. The chained CPI-U does not become final until two years after its initial release. Obviously there are technical implications with using an initial number that could be revised two years later, or waiting two years for a final number before applying a COLA.

The proposal to ameliorate the harshest impact of the COLA change by increasing benefits 5 percent after 20 years of eligibility would increase the actuarial shortfall by 8 percent. It would apply uniformly to all beneficiaries who collect benefits for at least 20 years. This would partially compensate for the 6 percent loss of benefits resulting from implementation of the chained–CPI.

Increase the Retirement Age
Current Law: The normal retirement age (NRA), which is the age at which a person can apply for Social Security benefits without any reduction, currently stands at age 66. It is scheduled to remain steady until 2016, when it will begin rising at the rate of two months per year until it reaches age 67 in 2022 and subsequent years. No additional increases in the NRA are scheduled.

Workers can apply for benefits as early as age 62, although they incur a reduction for electing early retirement. Currently, the amount of this reduction is 25 percent. The reduction will rise to 30 percent for those workers whose NRA will be 67. Workers who qualify for disability prior to NRA avoid part or all of the reduction for early retirement, depending on the age at which they become disabled.

Proposed Change: Under this proposal the NRA would continue to rise after reaching age 67 in 2022 based on continuing increases in longevity. According to the description in the Commission’s report, the NRA would rise gradually until it reached 68 in about 2050 and 69 in about 2075. The rate of increase, according to the memorandum prepared by the Office of the Social Security Actuary, would be 1 month every two years. Whether there would be periods during which the NRA would remain constant or whether the rise would be continuous is not entirely clear.

In addition, the provision would gradually increase the early eligibility age (EEA) so that there would be no more than 5 years between the EEA and the NRA. For example, when the NRA begins its proposed increase to age 68 and then to 69, the EEA would increase in tandem with it so that no more than 5 years would lie between them. Thus, by 2050 the EEA would be 63 and by 2075 the EEA would be 64. As a result, the reduction for early retirement would remain constant at 30 percent.

To counter the impact of increasing retirement ages on workers in physically demanding jobs, the proposal includes an attempt to provide some relief. The proposal is not described in any detail, nor has it been evaluated by the chief actuary. However, the concept is that the Social Security Administration would be required to develop some form of accommodation in the form of a “hardship waiver” for these workers before the longevity indexation begins, which appears to be scheduled to occur sometime after 2022. The exemption would be limited to no more than 20 percent of retirees. In addition, the SSA would be required to “set aside funds to pay for the new policy.”

The SSA is already stressed by an unprecedented number of disability claims – projected to reach 1 million initial claims at the state level by the end of this year, with appeals of denied claims taking over 400 days to process. It is unclear how the new “hardship waiver” would interact with the existing disability process, or how it might be designed to avoid the extreme delays and costs associated with the disability program.

Impact: Increasing the retirement age is first and foremost a cut in benefits. The estimates prepared by the chief actuary reveal that gradually over time all workers would have their benefits reduced significantly. By 2080 the reduction would be about 15 percent.

The increases called for in this proposal rest on the premise that, because people are living longer, they can therefore continue working for more years. Although it is true that people, on average, are living longer, these longer life expectancies are by no means across-the board. Over the last quarter-century, the life expectancy of lower-income men increased by one year compared to 5 years for upper-income men. This is not surprising considering higher income workers are less likely to have physically demanding jobs and more likely to work in jobs with high-quality health coverage. Lower-income women have actually experienced a decline in longevity during that period. Yet the increases in retirement age apply to all workers, whether or not they are living longer.

In addition, increasing the retirement age would have a severe impact on workers who are not healthy enough to continue to work, even though they would prefer to do so, especially those who have physically demanding jobs. The Commission’s proposals provide scant comfort for such workers. By moving the early eligibility age up to 64, older workers would have no choice but to continue to try to work, unless they were able to qualify for disability benefits.

In acknowledgement of the detrimental impact of their proposals, the Commission offers up an alternative to disability that they want the Social Security Administration to develop. But it is not funded and is not described in any meaningful detail. In addition, it is limited to no more than 20 percent of retirees. Capping a provision such as this would mean that some otherwise-eligible seniors would fail to find relief under this provision. In addition to being unfair, it would be extremely difficult for the Social Security Administration to administer.

Finally, while many older workers may be healthy enough to work, jobs for them may simply not exist. Although studies have shown the many contributions older workers bring to their employers, most companies remain focused on the bottom line, which, due to higher health care costs, translates into a competitive disadvantage for older workers. Unless there is a dramatic change in employer attitudes or in the structure of our workforce, most workers will continue to retire well below their full retirement age. The Co-Chairs’ proposals to increase the retirement age will only add to the difficulties older Americans will face in the years to come.

Effect on Workers: Although the Commission’s proposal to index the retirement age to longevity plays out over many decades, the analysis by the SSA actuaries is consistent and clear. Future retirees will face benefit reductions that grow larger with each generation. By 2080, this proposal, by itself, will result in an across-the-board 15 percent cut in benefits for all Americans. This provision addresses about 21 percent of the current shortfall in the program.

Changes to the Benefit Formula

Current Law: Under current law, an individual’s unreduced Social Security benefit, called the primary insurance amount, or PIA, is based on that individual’s lifetime earnings in covered work. The first step in calculating the PIA is to identify the 35 years of highest nominal earnings. These earnings are then indexed for growth in wages. The indexed wages for each year are then added together and converted to average indexed monthly earnings, or AIME.

A benefit formula is then used to convert the AIME into a PIA. Thus, under the current formula, the PIA is the total of 90 percent of the first $761 of AIME plus 32 percent of AIME over 761 through $4,586 plus 15 percent of AIME over $4,586. The percentages in the formula have been constant since 1977. The dollar “bend points” change annually, as they are indexed by growth in wages.

The progressivity of the Social Security benefit derives from the fact that the formula replaces a much higher percentage of the pre-retirement wages of lower-income earners than it does for higher earners. At the same time, the formula assures that higher earners receive benefits that are commensurate with their greater contribution to the program.

Under current law, Social Security contributions and benefits are based on earnings that fall below an annual cap, which currently is $106,800. In the past, the tax cap has been set at a level that covered about 90 percent of all covered earnings. Currently, however, less than 86 percent of earnings are subject to the Social Security payroll tax. This erosion in covered earnings stems from the fact that wages for the highest paid six percent of workers have been rising faster than wages for the vast majority of people who earn less than the cap.

Proposed Change: Although the details of this proposal are not clearly delineated, it appears to alter the bend points in the formula in a manner that yields an across-the-board reduction in benefits for virtually all beneficiaries. The Commission, in its presentation, says that it will, “Gradually move to a more progressive benefit formula by creating a new bend point at the 50th percentile and reducing upper replacing factors slowly over time, phased in by 2050.”

In his estimate, SSA’s chief actuary describes the provision as creating a new bend point at the 50th percentile career-average earnings level, and reducing PIA factors (bend points) to 90/30/10/5 by 2050. The provision would affect individuals becoming eligible for Social Security beginning in 2017.

The Commission also proposes to increase the amount of wages subject to Social Security taxation so that 90 percent of all wages are taxed. This proposal would also create a new 5-percent bend point in the benefit formula that would be applicable to the wages covered by the higher tax cap.

Impact: As stated earlier, the result of this change, by itself, is a reduction in benefits for all future beneficiaries. Starting in 2030, a worker earning approximately $43,000 per year would experience a benefit reduction of almost 5 percent. As the proposal is fully phased in, the resulting reductions, still modest for the lowest paid workers, grow. By 2080, a worker earning approximately $69,000 in 2010 would witness a reduction of almost 23 percent, while a relative high earner, someone earning the taxable maximum of $106,800, would be reduced by 30 percent.

This proposal is a benefit reduction pure and simple. It does nothing to enhance the progressivity of the Social Security program. All workers will see their benefits reduced. There is not a single group of workers who will see a benefit from this change.

As a companion to this change in formula, the Commission also proposes increasing the taxable maximum so that it once more covers 90 percent of all covered wages. (description below). This is an important step in strengthening the financial basis of the Security program, and would reduce the program’s long-term deficit by nearly one-third.

Index the Taxable Maximum to 90 Percent of Wages

Current Law: In 2009, earnings up to $106,800 are taxed and counted toward worker’s future Social Security benefits. About 6 percent of all workers earn more than the cap. The cap is indexed to keep pace with the growth in average earnings of all workers. In the past, Congress set the level of the cap to cover 90 percent of the aggregate wages of all workers. In 2009, the taxable maximum captured less than 86 percent of earnings, and is expected to fall to 82.5 percent by the end of the decade. The decline has occurred because those at the top of the economic ladder, who make more than the cap, have experienced more rapid growth in earnings than those who make less than the cap.

Proposed Change: The Commission proposes gradually increasing the taxable maximum to capture 90 percent of wages by 2050. They argue phasing in a higher taxable maximum slowly will prevent large marginal changes and will prevent rapid buildup of the trust fund. The proposal does not indicate the level of yearly increase the Commission contemplates.

Impact: The Commission estimates this revenue increase will reduce the program’s funding shortfall by 35 percent. For the 94 percent of workers with earnings below the cap, there will be no change. The 6 percent of workers affected by this proposal would see their FICA taxes increase, meaning deductions would continue for a few days longer into the year. They would receive somewhat higher benefits as a result of their increased contributions, although the Commission proposes subjecting all earnings above the current-law maximum to a new 5 percent bend point. Together, these proposals address about 35 percent of the program’s current shortfall.

Increase the Amount of the Special Minimum PIA

Current Law: The special minimum benefit applies to workers who have been employed many years at low earnings. This computation method is only used if it results in a higher payment than the benefit computed by any other method. The Primary Insurance Amount for a worker with 30 years of coverage as of December 2008 is $763.20.

Proposed Change: The Commission recommends adding a new special minimum benefit to keep full-career minimum wage workers above the poverty threshold by wage-indexing the minimum benefit. This benefit would be increased at implementation by setting the benefit level for 30 years of coverage at 125 percent of the poverty level (about $1,128 in 2009). From 2009 to 2017, the poverty level would be indexed by the chain-CPI. Thereafter, the benefit amount would be indexed for wage growth, so that the special minimum would keep up with the wage-indexed benefit formula. This provision would take full effect for all newly eligible workers in 2017.

Impact: The Commission estimates that implementation of this proposal will add 4 percent to the actuarial shortfall for the program. Very low wage earners (those earning $10,771 in 2010) would benefit, with an increase of about 36 percent for workers attaining age 65 from 2010 through 2080. Low wage earners (those earning around $19,388 in 2010) would see more modest increases, ranging from a 3.9 percent increase for those turning 65 in 2010 to a 5.7 increase for those turning 65 in 2080. Medium, high and maximum earners (everyone earning above $43,084) would see no benefit from this provision.

Mandatory Coverage of State and Local Employees

Current Law: Not all state and local government employees are currently covered by Social Security. Approximately 25 percent of State and local government employees are covered by alternative pension systems and are not provided Social Security coverage. States with more than half their employees not covered by Social Security include Ohio, Massachusetts, Louisiana, Nevada, Colorado, California, Alaska and Maine.

Proposed Change: The Commission recommends including newly hired state and local workers in Social Security after 2020. This would achieve more universal coverage under Social Security, requiring workers to pay FICA taxes, making them eligible to receive benefits.

Impact: The Commission estimates this proposal would reduce the current funding shortfall by 8 percent. The change will impact the funding of state and local government pension systems. State and local governments will need to modify their pension systems to fit with the Social Security program. This was done for newly-hired federal employees after 1983. The increase in revenue occurs because the newly-hired workers and employers start to pay into Social Security immediately, but will not claim benefits until later in the future. However, the revenue increase is temporary as the newly covered workers will ultimately collect the benefits their contributions entitle them to receive.

Increased Flexibility in Applying for Benefits

Current Law: The normal retirement age (NRA) is 66 and is scheduled to increase two months per year, beginning in 2016, until it reaches age 67 in 2022. The earliest a worker can apply for benefits is age 62. The current reduction for taking early benefits at age 62 is 25 percent. This will increase to 30 percent when the NRA reaches age 67.

Proposed Change: The Commission proposes offering retirees the choice of collecting half of their benefits early and the other half at a later age to minimize the impact of the actuarial reduction and support phased retirement options. The proposal does not offer any information regarding when this option would become available or at what point the second half of the benefit could be collected.

Impact: Without more specifics, it is difficult to determine the impact on solvency of the program. Presumably it would be designed to have no impact. While this proposal may offer an option for workers in good health who have control over their work environment and retirement date, it offers little assistance to older workers who lose their jobs or are physically unable to handle the demands of strenuous work.

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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Thank you for finding an actual analysis, instead of rhetoric.
But there are many who would disagree with the stated "impact". Even so, you have to admit that nowhere does it state that the impact would be to "destroy" or "dismantle" Social Security.

Plus, the Payroll Tax holiday is a reality and has already been signed into law.

Also, although some of the projected impact listed here can be considered "bad", much of it is good.

The important thing is that we don't know which - if any - of thee ideas Obama will consider. So, my point is that to all those who claim that Obama is planning to destroy Social Security - there is no basis for that statement.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks for some facts rather than the shrill DESTROY SOCIAL SECURITY.
1) Raising the cap = sounds good and will raise significant income when you consider the disparity between even top 20% and top 10% in income.
2) Making the payout more progressive = anyone going to argue about this one?
2) Slowly raise retirement age by 1 year every 25 years, a rather small and reasonable change.

Current Retirement Schedule (bithyear vs full retirement):
1937 or earlier 65
1938 - 1942 ranges from 65 & 2 months to 65 & 10 months
1943 - 1954 66
1955 - 1959 ranges from 66 & 2 months to 66 & 10 months
1960 or later 67

Approximate Retirement Schedule based on recommendations (bithyear vs full retirement):

1937 or earlier 65
1938 - 1942 ranges from 65 & 2 months to 65 & 10 months depending on birthyear
1943 - 1954 66
1955 - 1959 ranges from 66 & 2 months to 66 & 10 months depending on birthyear
1960 - 1961 67
1962 - 1981 ranges from 67 & 1 month to 67 & 11 months
1982 - 1983 68
1984 - 2005 ranges from 68 & 1 month to 68 & 11 months
2006 ot later 69

4) Raise the minimum benefit (making system more progressive) for low income workers.

5) Cover all workers - should have been done decades ago. Make SS fully universal.

So much for the doom & gloomers yet again.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. "Making the payout more progressive = " means-testing. The details here will be paramount.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:35 PM by WinkyDink
And you must not be a public-school teacher, if you can be so sanguine about age 69 as a retirement age.
FORTY-SIX OR-SEVEN YEARS?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. The current system is progressive. More progressive doesn't mean means testing.
Means testing = no payment above certain income.

currently SS treats people who have average income of $100K and $10 million the same. Why couldn't you treat those incomes in a more progressive manner.

Please cite in the commission where they indicate a means testing or that payments wouldn't be universal.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Actually, this would only keep the regressiveness in place. "Progressive" would be TOP-DOWN.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Are you actually saying SS is regressive? ROFL, No sense and discussing it then.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #47
119. Taking taxes starting at the bottom wages? Why, yes, that is regressive.
Edited on Tue Dec-28-10 10:44 AM by WinkyDink
That you cannot see that is puzzling.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
54. people with incomes of $10 million typically don't collect SS. But if they do,
it's because they paid in. and they paid in at the max, funding about 40% of the program.

when you say they don't deserve anything back, you lose their support for the program.

that appears to be the real motivation behind all these bullshit "solutions" to a non-existent problem manufactured by those who wish to destroy the program.

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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Who says they wouldn't collect or deserve nothing back?
They simply need a lower ROI (but still a return) than someone making $100K or $80K.

Means testing VS progressive payout.

the commission didn't recommend means testing. They did recommend making the system MORE PROGRESSIVE at the high end.

The system is already progressive, they simply recommended making it more progressive (making the curve steeper).

You claim of means testing, cutting off support, or saying people at high end don't deserve anything isn't supported by comissions results.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
82. means testing & "more progressive on the higher end" = same.
fewer benefits for those who pay the most, turning it into more of a losing deal for them than it already is & undermining popular support for the program.

== giving more propaganda points to the right.

you want a welfare program, TAX CAPITAL.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. It isn't a welfare program and making it more progressive won't make it a welfare program.
Means testing would make it but nobody serious is suggesting that so it is just a strawman you bring out from time to time.

The reality is support for SS even among the rich is high. It is the ultimate safety net. There are plenty of middle class people who were once rich due to lawsuit, fraud, criminal activity, illness, or death in family. While they may not be struggling SS allows them to stretch their money further.

Just because the deal isn't a sweet (lower ROI) doesn't mean you will see widespread support to demolish it.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. the reality is, when the relatively wealthy get little benefit from it, but fund the majority of it,
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 07:50 PM by Hannah Bell
their support declines precipitously.

everyone knows it.

but just keep spouting the feel-good propaganda.

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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. Again, it seems that you are against this because it is "too progressive"
"the reality is, when the relatively wealthy get little benefit from it, but fund the majority of it,
their support declines precipitously."

Please explain, this seems in direct opposition of most of your previous posts and actually seems to support not just Compromise, but Capitulation.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #95
116. Please don't throw me into that briar patch!
The proposed reforms gives ammunition to those who oppose the system.


The supposed increase in progressivity under the proposal (actually an outright theft from higher income,though not rich, earners) will instead expose the system to legitamate criticism.

As the SS system stands today, nearly every cohort/wage group gets a positive rate of return on their "investment". Even higher earners (those near the maximum taxable amount) who will retire 20-25 years from now are likely to get a small but positive rate of return. But if the cap is raised that will change. And so support will drop(an understatement) from those who are to get screwed by design.

It is one thing to say those at the bottom will get higher rates of return(progressive) while all cohorts/wage groups get a positive rate of return, it is another thing to redesign the system so that some groups are intentionally screwed (not progressive) in order to hide the mismanagement of the system.


There are many other items in the proposal that should make a person question what is really behind them. For instance the actuaries can just as easily calculate a person's payout at age 62 as they can at age 64, so why the need to raise the early retirement age? Because they are betting more will die without ever collecting anything so that the ROI of those who do reach retiremnt age looks better. Another poster covered most other points so I wlll not rehash them(you replied to that poster so I am sure you have read it).



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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #116
126. You make it seem like it is impossible for SS to manage the cap & benefit formula
to ensure a positive ROI. Maybe a smaller ROI but a positive ROI.

Already there are portions of the population where ROI is negative. Then again for most people ROI on life insurance is negative too but people still purchase it.

There is no evidence that making SS more progressive (it is already significantly progressive) would suddenly cause massive uprising to destroy the program.

Insurance usually has a negative ROI yet people buy it everyday. The rich buy it in larger quantities than any other segment of society specifically because they have more to protect.

MORE progressive payout =/= means testing.
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
125. +1000
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. By your definition, they are already doing "means testing".
And let's see, if you are not planning to retire until age 69 which doesn't kick-in until 2075, then that means you're 4 years old?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. they *are* already doing means-testing.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. So, the "means-testing" argument is irrelevent.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. SS is already means-tested. The additional measures being discussed do nothing but further under-
mine the original design of the program, turning it from a universal program into a welfare program.

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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. It isn't a universal program - it is a "safety net".
It was never designed to be a universal program.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. talk about rhetoric. it's not a "safety net". it covers all workers who paid in, whether they need
a "safety net" or not -- and always did.

about 93% of workers pay into the system. sounds pretty universal to me.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. And the commission wants to change that to 100% pay in and 100% get benefits.
Yeah the horrors. Also make it more progressive, provider higher living standard for lowest income americans, and provide hardship exemption for those with physically active careers.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. the recommendations of the commission have nothing to do with "making 100% pay".
shows how little you understand the recommendations.

raising the cap doesn't make more people pay.

lol. it takes more income from people WHO ARE ALREADY PAYING. and already paying the biggest share of costs.

BUT IT DOESN'T TAKE A DAMN PENNY OUT OF THE POCKETS OF CAPITAL.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. try re-reading the post. The commission wants to include currently excluded persons by 2020. n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. i reread my post. there's nothing in it about excluded persons. link? link?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Who cares about your post. The OP
"RECOMMENDATION 5.8: COVER NEWLY HIRED STATE AND LOCAL WORKERS AFTER 2020."
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. um, which will be less than 3% of all workers, 71% of them in 7 states, &
all positions which were previously covered by gov't pensions -- and may still be.

and at this point in time, governments are laying off, not hiring.

wow, a windfall.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. All future employees will be required to "join" pension or not.
Also the change would take effect in 2020 and go onward for decades. So I doubt local & state agencies will continue to trim payroll for decades upon decades despite people retiring, quitting, being terminated, or dying.

Also it is quite a windfall.

The net unfunded liability of SS (even after repayment of trust fund) is roughly $5.4 trillion. $5.4 trillion more revenue or less expenses would make SS solvent forever. According to AARP study (no enemy of SS) including all newly hired state & local govt employees in SS would eliminate roughly 10% of that liability. $540 billion is no small chunk of change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_debate_(United_States)

Raising the payroll cap to cover 90% of wages eliminates 39% of unfunded liability (another thing you make out to be a token).
Increasing full retirement age for young workers to 68 eliminates another 30% of that unfunded liability.

You simply hate any change because you live under the delusion that we can do NOTHING to social security and it will be solvent forever. Delusions are fun, but in the real world, real people will need to make real difficult choices. Among all the options the one proposed by the commission are the mildest.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. the majority of state & local government employees already pay into SS.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 07:53 PM by Hannah Bell
do some research.

and the measure applies only to new hires, so it's not going to change much.

ss already covers 94-97% of workers.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. Whoa, wait a mintue. A lot of people complained about the
payroll tax holiday saying that it left out the government employees that didn't pay into Social Security.

I'm confused by the spin, here. And I wil admit, it's not what you have stated personally but the overall thinking.

So, the payroll tax holiday is "bad" because it leaves out the "large" number of government employees that don't pay into SS.

But according to YOU, the majority of government employees already pay into SS.

Seems to me like there's a big disconnect somewhere.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #94
100. most state & local government workers already pay into SS. as for the rest of your bullshit.
i never said anything like that about the payroll tax holiday.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #100
104. I'm just trying to clarify some some points, whether you "said" them
or not.

A big criticism of the "payroll tax holiday" was that "many government workers" didn't benefit because they didn't pay into the SS payroll tax.

So, how do you stand on this? Do you think that government employees should be part of the SS pool?
Why, or why not? I'm listening.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. 69 is unacceptable. But so is your example. Public school teachers have pensions.
Most can retire in their mid 50s after putting in 30 years.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
50. SS is already means-tested in two ways.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 04:50 PM by Hannah Bell
by the progressivity of the payout & the taxation of benefits.

There is no "problem" that requires additional means-testing; it adds costs & makes the program increasingly vulnerable to political attack.

all this bullshit assumes there is a big problem that requires all this bullshit fiddling.

trojan horse to destroy the program.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
66. Even with 100% repayment of trust fund + interest SS is insolvent.
So either:
a) revenue increases
b) expenses decrease
c) some combination of both

The commission is recommending that revenue increase by raising contributions on wealthiest Americans and raising the cap.

The commission is recommending that expenses decrease by making payouts MORE progressive (they already are progressive so this crap about making it more progressive will kill SS is just that crap).
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. garbage. always.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Reality. It hurts. The fact that SS is long term insolvent is not in dispute.
It is universally accepted by all parties, and the SSA itself.



SSA Trust fund will continue to grow in value till approximately 2018 at which point it will peak. The trust fund can then sustain current operations (current payroll contributions, current cap, current benefits) until 2042. At which point the fund will be exhausted and year 2042 revenue (from payroll taxes) will be insufficient to pay 100% of promised benefits for year 2042.

So EVEN ASSUMING 100% of the trust fund is paid back from general fund in full with 100% of promised interest there is a shortfall.

This shortfall can be overcome by:
a) increased revenue: raising cap, raising contribution rate, making contributions progressive, requiring all wage earners to participate
b) decreases expenses: reduced benefits, later retirement, making payments progressive
c) some combination of both

However without making changes prior to 2042 the changes required "on the spot" will be severe. Either a 50% increase in payroll tax (dropping bill on our children and their children) OR a 25% across the board reduction in benefits.

Either way the system isn't solvent forever. Small change will happen sooner, or drastic change will happen later.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. it's in dispute by me, since the mid-range projection has been wrong even in the short-term
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 06:54 PM by Hannah Bell
more often than its been right, & the underlying assumptions of the projection are questionable.

in particular, the assumptions about growth (depression-era net growth for 75 years) & longevity (continuation of trends established during high-income years, doubtful they'll continue when an increasing percent of workers are poor).

and as there's another projection no one ever talks about, but which has more accurately predicted ss finances than the "intermediate" forecast touted in the media, & it predicts surpluses into infinity --

and another projection (the "pessimistic" one) which has us all dead already.

yes, we can say that anyone who actually knows something about the issue would dispute your spin.

not to mention that the accuracy of 75-year forecasts is effectively zero.

which is why the forecasts are adjusted every year, & in most years the date of impending "insolvency" (which is not "insolvency," but impending shortfall, something that's happened a couple of times in SS's history) --

has been pushed further into the future when it failed to materialize.

bullshit on your propaganda.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #81
92. But we are entering new territory we haven't seen before.
THAT's the whole point. No, no-one can accurately predict the outcomes. But what we do know is that Congress has been borrowing against SS for decades. We do know that a lot of that borrowing was predicated on the fact that the number of contributors was much higher than the number of benificiaries.

Also, we know that the ratio of payers to payees has been lowered, and it will DRASTICALLY change in the near future.

We have consistently kicked the can down the road, and now we're facing a DEAD-END, the end of the road.

Something must be done.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. what we know is the bush tax breaks given to the top 1% will pay off the entire TF
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 10:21 PM by Hannah Bell
in less than 10 years.

which is much less than the 30 years all the boomers who lent the money to the super-rich will be in retirement.

got any more stupid talking points?
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. And Obama was against those cuts.
And he still is. But, there were more important considerations.

this is the Real World. As Mick Jagger said, "you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you just might find - you get what you NEED!"

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. empty bullshit.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #99
105. Really? How so?
If you really believe that it is "empty", then you must have some basis for that stance. If not, then perhaps your own stance is "empty".
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #78
114. This is pure bullshit
http://www.truth-out.org/joshua-holland-were-being-conned-social-security62974

According to Bruce Bartlett, in an incredibly typical scare-piece in billionaire granny-basher Pete Peterson’s Fiscal Times, that’s not true. Social Security’s problems are immense. “The 2009 report of Social Security’s trustees,” Bartlett writes, “showed a long-term actuarial deficit in that program of $15 trillion.” That is an almost unimaginably large number, given that the entire annual output of the United States was only $14 trillion last year.

But what does it really mean? Well, it turns out that Bartlett’s not even referring to the dubious 75-year projection of the Social Security “gap.” His terrifyingly big figure actually represents the program’s “shortfall” stretching out to infinity. That’s right-- it’s the program’s “unfunded liability” if everything remains as projected forever, and assuming the earth isn’t destroyed by a moon-sized meteor at some point before forever arrives. (The geeks at the American Academy of Actuaries have suggested that the “infinite horizon” measure is complete nonsense.)

According to the 2010 Social Security Trustees’ report, the 75-year gap is estimated to be $5.4 trillion -- still a big number. But there’s another way to express it: it equals just 0.7 percent of our projected economic output over that same period. That’s less than one penny on the dollar
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. Well I am not sure why you called it bullshit and then said the same thing as me.
None of the commissions proposals are massive. They are just to close that $5.4T gap. While it may be 1 penny on the dollar that is IF we pay $5.4T up front today. That is how unfunded liabilities are calculated. As time goes on the effects of compounding interest take over. So the liability will grow slowly at first but accelerating as we approach 2043.

We need to slightly boost revenue and/or slightly cut expenses. The sooner we do it the smaller the change will be. Nothing in the comission report is particularly dramatic. Of course if we wait 20 years the next commission report will be far more dire. If we wait 30 years the changes requires will be even more significant.

Compounding interest is a powerful force.
Imagine you need $1 mil to retire and are 40 years from retirement. If you can assume an 8% return you need to put aside $322 a month. However if you are only 20 years from retirement you can't just double it. It would take $1825 a month with same 8% return. Now if you waited till only 10 years before retirement to start saving you would need to put aside a staggering $5760 a month.

With half the time the monthly "cost" has increased not by a factor of 2 but a factor of almost 6 and with one quarter the time it requires almost 18 times the "cost".
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-10 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #115
134. You are the one defending raising retirement age and cutting benefits
Raising the FICA cap is the ONLY thing that needs to be done, period.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
113. NO raise in the retirement age is acceptable, period
That is because lower income people have not seen very much in the way of increases in life expectancy, and life expectancy is DECREASING for lower income women. Given age discrimination in the workplace, raising the age at which you can collect anything until age 64 is essentially mass murder.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
39. If you think a commission headed by Alan Simpson is out to enhance SS, I've got a bridge.....
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Rhetoric. Please read the report. nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. consider the source isn't rhetoric, it's common sense.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. It doesn't make any sense. Therefore, how could it be "common sense"?
It's fear-mongering, which has nothing to do with "sense" - common or otherwise.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. bullshit. the leaders of the catfood commission & most of the members are on record
as supporting destruction of the program through various means.

the so-called "labor" representative, for example, is on record supporting privatized accounts invested in the stock market.

when the people making the recommendations make such statements, fear is called for.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. That's simply not true.
Edited on Mon Dec-27-10 06:04 PM by johnaries
A few, are on record for "privatizing" it, yes. But the majority have been on record against privitazation.

Regardless, it doesn't matter what they said previously. This report is what Obama has said he will "look at". And there is no evidence that his purpose is to dismantle or destroy SS. It simply doesn't make sense.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #69
76. um, yes, it is. but i don't expect you to admit it.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. No, it's not. I researched each of Obama's appointees myself.
And remember, I am only responding to the "threat" of Obama wanting to "dismantle or destroy" Social Security. When he created the commission, he split the majority of appointees between Dems and Repukes in both the House and the Senate. If you have problems with those appointees by Reid or Pelosi, then blame them and not Obama.

Obama promised to do "half and half" appointees as his own to represent both sides, and he did. Yes, a very few of his "RW half" were on record as wanting to privatize SS. Obviously, he wanted them in on the debate so that their concerns could be exposed and addressed.

However, many of his personal appointees had NOT expressed this POV. In fact, several of them never expressed a POV at all and I had to rely on the recommendations of boards that they had served on in the past or were serving on currently. In each of those cases, the recommendations were AGAINST any kind of privitization. Since they served as prominent members on those boards, I assumed that their views largely reflected the findings of those boards.

So, when you do any kind of research simply using Google (as I did), it shows that the meme that "Obama stacked the commission to destroy Social Security" is a LIE.

But don't trust me, or any other DU'er. Do your own research. If you don't like Google, use Bing.

Again, don't trust me, or any other DU'er. Do your own research. But make sure it's research that is objective and shows all sides, not just the ones that reinforce a pre-determined point-of-view. Unfortunately, those are a dime a dozen and do nothing to forward the discussion.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #88
102. i did my own research. fuck all the lying traitors
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #102
107. And would you care to share that with us? Or are we all "lying traitors"
if we disagree with you?

"Fuck all the lying traitors!"

That sounds like the meme of many historical dictators that you, yourself, have denounced.

You should look in the mirror.

"Fuck all the lying traitors!"

then perhaps we should do a purge.

"Fuck all the lying traitors!"

need I really say more? You're own words have betrayed your real intent.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #102
108. and would you care to share that research, or is it contrary to your
argument?

Since you don't present anything to support your claims, I must conclude that your own research doesn't support your claims.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #43
120. Wise up. The "report" is what is the mere rhetoric. Remember the "Maine?" Well, remember the "public
Edited on Tue Dec-28-10 11:31 AM by WinkyDink
option."**

NOBODY COMMISSIONS A REPORT ON SOCIAL SECURITY IF THEY DON'T FULLY INTEND TO REDUCE IT.
BECAUSE ELSEWISE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED OF ANY COMMISSION WHATSOEVER.

**P.S.
NO COLA for current S.S. recipients.
Two-year pay-freezes for government workers.
Extended tax-breaks for billionaires.
2% REDUCTION in S.S. PAYROLL TAXES.

Oh, but there's the REPORT! Bwahahahahaha!

But hey---at least Michael Vick was given another chance!

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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
74. Very good post.
Instead of rumors you post what was actually said in the report. People need to see this and learn that the sky isn't falling and they can't trust the rants of those who immediately believe anything negative put on the internet.

Thank you!
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great white snark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
85. K&R&Bookmarked.
Thank you.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
89. This is a Republicans wet dream considering they've wanted to kill
Social Security since it first passed. Now that the debt/deficit is all the rage in DC, this is on the list to be cut. Thank God the $800 Billion tax cuts passed and the $725 Billion defense budget passed. Otherwise there would be money to help the People.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-27-10 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Please explain. HOW is it on the "list"? I'm not looking for rhetoric
but actually facts. Granted, the Republicans want to destroy SS, but what makes anyone think that Obama or ANY Dem wants to, too?

Please give me facts and evidence, not fear-mongering.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #91
101. It's on the Republican's list but Obama doesn't have to go there. But he's
going to under the guise of "bipartisanship". Dear God I hope I'm wrong.

http://www.cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1012/26/sotu.01.html

GIBBS: Well look, I think you've touched on what we need most of all and that is a willingness for both political parties to sit at that table, like we did for the tax agreement, like we did for the START agreement, though we didn't have Senator McConnell's support on that, and be willing to discuss issues. The president obviously wants to strengthen our entitlement programs for future generations. We have to do something about our mid and long-term deficit and debt problems. We have an education plan that has to be reauthorized every few years. That's coming up next year, and I think that provides an occasion for bipartisanship.

But I think most of all, each of these two parties and we are certainly hopeful that the Republicans come into next year with a willingness to sit down at that table and begin having a discussion about how we're going to make progress. Sometimes the first step is the biggest one.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. SS is known as the "3rd rail" for good reason.
Let's look at the Fiscal Commission from the most "critical eye" and assuming the worst. Even if you buy into the rhetoric that the whole purpose was to "destroy" Social Security, the commission recognized the importance of Social Security and despite any pre-conceived ideals they all recognized the need to "save" it. They just disagreed on how to do it.

If anything, those who previously opposed SS came to recgonize the importance of it.

Rather than trying to "kill" SS, the commission made great steps toward saving it.

But fear-mongers will always try to spread fear.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #106
122. The premise is the problem. SS is solvent.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #122
130. SS is not solvent.
Even with full repayment of trust fund + interest + future payroll contributions at the current rate of contribution & benefits the system will be exhausted in 2037.



When the fund is exhausted unless revenue is raised SSA will be forced to reduce expenditures to roughly 74% of current benefit payouts.



The problem isn't "huge". The differences between revenue and expenses over the next 75 years is roughly $5.4 trillion. Now that is a large nominal number but small changes can close that gap.

Two relatively painless methods to partially close the $5.4T gap
a) raise the cap to 90% of wages (currently at 84%). This minor change would eliminates roughly 38% of the gap.
b) require all newly hired state & local workers to participate in SS. This minor change would close 10% of the gap.

Roughly half the gap can be closed with just these two small changes. The reality is doing nothing is not an option. The longer one waits the larger the changes will be needed to balance the system. Start soon (say 2015-2020) and small changes can balance the system. Wait until 2037 and we will need to make a 25% reduction in benefits or a nearly 50% increase in payroll taxes.

Time & compounded interest can work either with or against us on this issue.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #106
132. Always cuts for the those that need it but never a tax increase on those that
can afford it? Why is that? Why not lift the cap? Because more revenue would solve the problem but that isn't in the cards for those Republicans and a couple Democrats on the commission want to destroy it. Do you really believe Alan Simpson is a defender of SS? Or what about the other Republicans on the Commission? Alan "Social Security is a milk cow with 310 million tits" Simpson is the new defender of Social Security? :rofl:

If the debt/deficit is god damned important, then why did a tax cut just pass of $800 billion and a defense budget of $750 billion? Over $1.5 trillion dollars right there in spending. But all that is untouchable because they're tax cuts and the defense budget. If the debt was so fucking important, then why did we just take more revenue out of the budget?
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #101
118. I think he does have to go there
if only to force Republicans to either shut up or risk messing with what everyone knows is the "Third Rail" of politics.

Because, you know, ONLY Democrats receive Social Security.... :eyes:



If I were in that situation, yeah...I would present some worst case scenarios to the people who want to kill something and then say, "Here you go...what ideas do YOU have for fixing this???"...knowing all the while that THEY can't very well risk their own political lives by actually ruining something that everyone - Democrats, Republicans, Independents, etc., may depend on in their older years.

Republicans may want to end SS, but they aren't stupid enough to actually do it. It would probably not only ruin their Party, but they'd probably also find themselves in fear for their very lives from a LOT of very very angry Americans.


Looked at another way, haven't the RW nuts been saying for years that the Democrats want to "take their guns and bibles away"?

That's what this all reminds me of. People are afraid that x, y, or z might happen....they look for signs that it will happen. They find "signs". Then they not only decide it might happen, they decide that it WILL happen...has, in fact, already happened....

:eyes:


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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #118
133. Since privatization failed under Bush, they'll try to starve it to death,
They aren't dumb enough to kill it outright, but with the debt/deficit fears all the rage, cuts and revenue starvation will do it well enough.
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PoliticAverse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
109. Considering what happened with the "Bush tax cuts".
How likely is it that the Social Security payroll tax cap will be raised?
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-28-10 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
110. We'll see...
Your first sentence is: "The recommendations did not get the required 14 votes, but Obama said he would have his staff "look" at it to see if there were parts he could include in his budget recommendations."

So how is this good? They might use some of these recommendations? You think they will get passed a Republican house?


And there is the glass is half empty perspective.
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