Obama plan will raise taxes on 150,000,000 Americans

[L. Coyote]

President Obama is turning the Democratic Psrty into the party that raises taxes on its owm base while giving tons of cash to the opposition.
Wealthiest one per cent of Americans get one quarter of the benefits (NYT).

"The Worse Off You Are, Your Taxes Increase"
Journalist David Cay Johnston Slams Obama-GOP Tax Deal
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/14/the_worse_off_you_are_your

The U.S. Senate is on the verge of approving President Obama’s controversial tax deal with Republicans. Under the deal, Obama agreed to extend the Bush-era tax cut for the wealthiest Americans and reduce the estate tax in return for a 13-month extension of jobless benefits and a handful of tax credits for low- and moderate-income Americans. We speak to Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist David Cay Johnston, author of Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. 50-50.

Now that's bi-partisanship, by cracky.

[Hello_Kitty]

2. Cue "but it'll be WORSE if we let the tax cuts expire" from the usual suspects.

Seriously, this portends of being a PR nightmare if it's not addressed and I'm afraid "shut up, paupers, it could have been worse" is not really the best way to address it.

[Donnachaidh]

5. and the unreccer swarms are on high alert too. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

9. I recced it up to 5. eom

[jbnow]

56. We should all be the usual suspects then. The rise in taxes

for some is compared to how things are right now, with both bush tax cuts and all of stimulus cuts and credits in place.
The deal did not extend the stimulus work tax credit and the payroll tax cut is not quite as large as Obama's stimulus one was for some income levels
But without the deal they lose a lot more at the end of this year than the bush and Obama stimulus cuts ending. All the stimulus credits will end as the new year begins so they will also lose the extended and/or expanded credits that the agreement extended for 2 years.

Earned income credit. That is greatly expanded and is for lower income workers. It can now be claimed by parents with higher incomes, over 40K. But the lower income parent with 1 child gets a 3,000 credit, 2 children gets you 5,000 and there is now even some increase for a 3rd child.
Child Tax Credit is 1,000 and full amount can be claimed up to 75,000 income now!
And if that lower income worker is going to college or has a child going the college tax credit was also extended.
There's more but you get the idea.

So he failed to achieve a cut from today for lower income but they are going to be far, far worse off without the deal. People make it sound like they are better off without the deal and that is so far from the truth!

This is a bad deal but we can't pretend the middle or lower class would be better off without it.
$130 billion of the cuts are for the rich bush extensions and the estate tax out of cuts over 800 billion. That's well under 20%. Now that is still ridiculous to spend/borrow so much on something that does not stimulate economy...
but we don't need to distort what it offers

[Hello_Kitty]

57. Well shit, as long as the people with kids are okay...

Those of us who haven't done our patriotic duty to procreate can fuck off.

[tridim]

3. Might as well make the number 1,000,000,000 Americans..

It's just as much of a lie. Toddlers don't pay taxes.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=207293,00.html

2009 FILING SEASON STATISTICS

Cumulative through the weeks ending 4/25/08 and 4/24/09

Individual Income Tax Returns
2008
2009
% Change

Total Receipts
139,928,000
131,543,000
-6.0%

Total Processed
119,100,000
117,014,000
-1.8%

[Hello_Kitty]

6. According to Johnson it's 45 million households

If you assume an average of 3 persons per household (I don't know if that's the average but it seems reasonable) 150 million is not out of line.

[L. Coyote]

7. The number counts the members of households, not just tax payer. Think of the children who eat food

and the parent feeding those children is losing $200-$400 a year. Tghat's a lot of beans and tortillas.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. It's a lot of frigging money going out of the economy.

45 million households losing an average of $175 works out to nearly $8 billion. Like you said, that's a lot of beans and tortillas.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

18. Yep. And the response from the WH has been unbelievably tone deaf

Both Larry Summers and Austan Goolsbee have been dismissive when asked about it.

[L. Coyote]

19. Rep. Peter DeFazio and others are not as tone deaf, but The Pukes have done it again

with staking out such an extreme position that even the now-proposed compromise plan is better than they ever expected in the first place.

The whole thing needs to go down in flames.

[katnapped]

38. Doesn't matter

Junior needs to suck it up and get a job...our fearless leader says so.

[Statistical]

8. Nice one. Only 130 million tax returns but Obama will make 150 million persons tax go up.

LOL.

I guess Obama will clone 20 million people just to make their taxes go up.

[L. Coyote]

15. Households have more than one member, and children are counted in this piece.

[tridim]

21. Right, precisely to inflate the number to make it lose all meaning.

This is a Faux Newz tactic, and is not welcome on the fact-based DU.

[Vinnie From Indy]

27. Again, you attempt to bully and intimidate

What no threat to "alert" this time?

[Hello_Kitty]

28. Households are taxed, not just individual taxpayers.

Your tax rate is determined by your number of dependents. Therefore it is not inaccurate to say that all the people in a household are affected by a change to the tax rate.

[L. Coyote]

11. You might consider actually watching the video before commenting.

And then you can share some facts instead of baseless comment.

[tridim]

12. You don't trust the IRS's numbers on the IRS website?

Why?

[Kalyke]

17. For Pete's Sake!

The poster is telling you this will EFFECT 150 million people - not that 150 million people will be taxed.

You bet your sweet ass that if my taxes go up, my two kids get less.

Duh.

[tridim]

22. The word is "affect", and it will not affect 150 million taxpayers.

It wont affect 45 million taxpayers either. Lies heaped upon lies.

[superduperfarleft]

23. In fairness, OP never said "150 million taxpayers."

He said "150 million Americans."

[Goblinmonger]

24. The word is "won't"

and then how many people will it affect, since you have all the truthiness out there.

[tridim]

36. I willn't fall for that.. Wont is as proper as won't.. Neither form follows contraction rules.

Smartass.

[Goblinmonger]

49. Wont = a habit (i.e. As he is wont to do.) Won't = will not. n/t

[Kalyke]

31. The word is "won't" and I'll write it this way:

The cause of the tax increase results in the effect of less spending by those households.

[Adsos Letter]

4. And that money raked into the republican base will return to us...

in the form of increased financial support for Republican politicians/causes. :puke:

[snooper2]

14. fail

two angry camels in a small car

[L. Coyote]

20. Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist David Cay Johnston, author of Free Lunch: How the We

Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist David Cay Johnston
author of
Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)

For its first 280 pages, the new exposé from this Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporter is an engaging look at how the superrich consistently—and outrageously—rely on public handouts while preaching about free markets and wasteful entitlement programs all the way to the bank. The villains in David Cay Johnston's tales run the gamut from railroad executives to sports-franchise owners to hedge-fund managers, all joined by a willingness to take enormous sums from public coffers while providing little or nothing in return.

Take former Treasury Secretary John Snow, whose csx railroad saved billions by skimping on maintenance; when there was a fatal crash, taxpayers footed the bill. Before entering politics, George W. Bush ran a money-losing baseball team, but ended up millions of dollars richer by getting a government-funded sweetheart deal on a new stadium. Retail chains like Wal-Mart win property-tax breaks and then squeeze out local businesses that pay their fair share. The free ride has become business as usual, but Johnston sees it for what it really is: cheating.

Free Lunch fizzles in its final chapter, where Johnston lays out some unconvincing solutions. He proposes "politician finance reform"—giving members of Congress all the money they want for dining, travel, and entertainment so they can't be tempted by their wealthy friends. Yet the end of Abramoff-style golf junkets and free box seats would do little to curb the influence of major campaign donors. Johnston's final appeal to handout-hungry ceos to "ask themselves how much they are willing to sully their reputations" feels naive, too. It will take more than a call for self-restraint to derail this gravy train.

http://motherjones.com/media/2008/01/free-lunch-how-wealthiest-americans-enrich-themselves-government-expense-and-stick-you

[SidDithers]

25. ...

Sid

[L. Coyote]

26. ***** Official LIVE BLOG Senate = Tax Cuts Debate III *****

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x8518

[L. Coyote]

37. Bernie Sanders now speaking

[Scruffy1]

29. Like I thpught

We'll be handed a shit sandwich and told it's that or nothing. The media will love it because all the hairdos on TV are rich and about to get richer. From my personal point of view Bill Clinton and Obama are two very rich men, by my standards promoting tax breaks for themselves. Sad, but that is the reality of the body politic. It's not so much our leaders-I actually like Obama-it's our voters who are easily led by the MSM. The Tea Party movement is no different then many political movements I have seen in my lifetime with a few street smart and well heeled leaders managing to manipulate the media and prey on our native fear and racism and like all movements with vague and ill defined goals is doomed for failure. The media is not going to change. If they actually started to analyze things in a rational way they would lose viewers who want to see action and simple answers.The reason the right has been winning is that they give the illusion of action and principle coupled with simple answers. The fact that the answers are wrong is irrelevant its the passion with which they are stated that counts.

Progressives complain about the media constantly, but the real problem is that they don't know how to manipulate it to their advantage like the righties do.Our politicians know this and also know that to get reelected they pretty much have to practice mostly damage control and that the big money has always ruled the country. It's not a new thing.

[uponit7771]

30. *****MORE BULLSHIT HYPERBOLE, THERE ARE ONLY 130MILLION TAX RETURNS*****

[L. Coyote]

32. HOW MANY DEPENDENTS ON THE TAX RETURNS OF POOR FAMILIES?

Sorry about the shouting, but your voice was so loud I thought you might be deaf.

If you read this, you might try reading the rest of the thread too.

[Hello_Kitty]

33. Notice they want to nitpick over numbers of taxpayers but not address the substance of your OP

This is a hike on the poorest workers and they have no defense of it.

[L. Coyote]

34. Too busy with that to even listen to the video, no doubt.

Or we might get some argumentation of the substance of the comments.

[katnapped]

41. Just wait!

Soon we'll be hearing from the apologists how their having less money is a GOOD THING ("well now you might qualify for assistance! Lucky you!"). Also wouldn't be surprised if we hear how it'll be less money to feed Johnny junk like Doritos and Kit-Kats, so that's another win-win!

[L. Coyote]

44. But, but, they will really be alarmed

if they lose their laptops, they won't be able to spam the thread that warned them :rofl:

[tjwash]

45. Ah...so calling out someone for pulling numbers out of their ass is "nitpicking" now

Good to know.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. The OP didn't do that

The numbers are based on a reasonable assumption of the number of people in 45 million households. Individual taxpayers aren't taxed, households are. A change in the tax rate affects the whole household.

[SidDithers]

50. The OP is all about numbers...

so of course posters are going to criticize the numbers when they're misleading, or flat out wrong.

Sid

[katnapped]

43. GIVE ALL YOUR MONEY TO WAL-MART FAMILY

DO NOT RESIST! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!

[L. Coyote]

35. This sub-thread is for substantive discussion only

:rofl:

[ProSense]

39. Not accurate

That is simply looking at it as the MWP credit versus the payroll tax holiday.

If the tax cuts expire the rates revert to pre-2001 levels. The Making Work Pay credit, which was implemented in 2009, was in addition to the existing middle-class tax cuts. That credit is also set to expire, meaning that taxes are going to go up without the deal.

So taxes are set to go up a lot, and the President offset that by securing additional tax credits for individuals.

Here is how it works out across the entire package.

[L. Coyote]

40. As if there were only two possible options in the first place is a false start

The Dems control all, if they want, and they could mandate what is best for the nation.

[Statistical]

46. No they don't. Dems proposed extending all cuts

Both failed to gain 60 votes in Senate. The Democratic leadership is a few votes short. So pretending they can do anything they want is false and silly.

[L. Coyote]

51. They control the rules

[Statistical]

52. Rules can't be amended during a session. You were aware of that right? n/t

[L. Coyote]

53. Need Republican talking points, read DU!

[Statistical]

54. When have Republicans claimed that.

Rules in the Senate can only be changed without cloture vote at the begining of the session. Once session is in progress it requires a cloture vote which currently requires 60 votes.
Certainly people oppose to a bill aren't going to vote for the motion to have rules changed to make the obstruction ineffective.

[Hello_Kitty]

48. The chart is meaningless because it doesn't explain what's in it.

Is the SS tax cut included in the Obama column?

[L. Coyote]

42. Bernie Sanders on the Senate floor right now

***** Official LIVE BLOG Senate = Tax Cuts Debate III *****
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x8518http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN2.aspx

[snooper2]

55. you should have repealed this thread..

but alas.....