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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 03:54 PM
Original message
Is Obama George Bush III?
(This story dovetails with the NY Times piece recently posted.)

I recently had an interesting conversation with my Republican buddy about his Obama objections. He was surprised when I told him I wasn’t happy either. I went on to tell him that I unenrolled from the Democratic Party because I was no longer going to be a blind cheerleader and hand my partisanship to any party that didn’t fight for my interests and values. I said that since I had complained that too many Republican voters had become political lemmings as their party went Facist during BushCo, that I wouldn’t be a hypocrite when the Dems started acting like them, too.

Sometimes you have to swallow hard and deal with the truth, ignore the labels, look past the slogans, and look at the issues themselves and the facts. We both agreed that this country is a trainwreck and right now, Obama’s the conductor.

Given that my pal is not a TeaBag-type Republican and has seen the harsh side of corporate politics, I saw a softening in him as we discussed the problems most Americans face. Starting with common ground and applying the facts was a sobering exercise. Issue by issue, we agreed that we were heading in the wrong direction and that everyone but the rich is getting screwed. And as I pieced together the history of when/where most of Obama’s policy came from, he made the BushCo connection with little resistance. (It didn’t hurt that I had facts to back me up while—like a good Republican voter--he only relied on empty slogans and partisan fandom as the basis for his political leanings.) And even though there was some disagreement on matters of degree or the difference between what each President wouldn’t (vs. couldn’t) do in office, it was easy to agree on what IS happening.

You tell me, is there really that much difference?

Bush OR Obama:
Occupies Iraq and Afghanistan
Offshore tax shelters and tax-free corporate policy
Trades the Constitution for the Patriot Act
No progress for the health-insured or the uninsured
No platform to help the poor
Warrantless wiretaps--domestic spying
More of a Divider than Uniter
Policy favors Individual wealth over the Commonwealth
Guantanomo
Hires corrupt Republican career pols to key posts
No resistance to media consolidation
Diplomacy not a priority
No protection for Net Neutrality
Thinks “reform” only applies to programs for poor and middle class
Lobbyist Lover
Estate tax and capital gains tax rates preserved, accelerating consolidation of wealth
Won’t prosecute war crimes, bank fraud or corruption on Wall St.
Will prosecute wistleblowers and baseball players
Unlimited Military budget and no-bid contracts
Decreases States’ funding, leading to property tax increase and local service cuts
Won’t say NO to entitlement threats
Massive handouts to Military, Banking and Insurance industries
Offshore drilling regardless of devastating environmental impact
Dismantles Education
Indefinitely detains suspects without Constitutional rights
Allows Banksters to create modern day sharecropping
Tax Breaks for Billionaires
Supports ridiculous CEO compensation at workers’ expense
Won’t even talk about making Elections safe and secure
Torture. That’s right--torture
Outsourcing over job creation
MIA when Public Employees’ rights and benefits targeted nationwide
Supports continued De-Regulation and loopholes
Won’t address unaffordable college tuition for most kids
Friends with Walmart
Demands “sacrifice” from Working Class Americans, not billionaires
Free trade, not FAIR trade
And this just in...
Building re-election on money, not policy



In my opinion, Obama is old wine in a new bottle. Aside from Gay Rights which makes for some great political capital to whip up the bible-waving RW base, he has managed to continue virtually the same policy as GWB. It felt good to be able to have the kind of honest political discussion that is missing from the process nowadays by acknowledging, without partisan bias, the unfair policy that is putting all of us and all of our kids’ futures at risk. In the end, it was easy to make the case that it doesn't matter what Bush and Obama call themselves; what they are doing is screwing most Americans.

My pal’s changing his political party to Independent. Problem is, who the hell can we vote for?





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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. :yawn:
:nopity: + :boring:
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catgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Spare us the crap n/t
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Terra Alta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Obama is a much better speaker than *
He at least has that going for him.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Obama is such a much better speaker that he could utterly and completely destroy every
RW talking point, initiative, and action, should he so choose. :patriot:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yup, he's
just like Booosh!

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indy legend Donating Member (484 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm with you joeunderdog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Call Me Wesley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Bless you and your kids, too! (nt)
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
6. LOOK AT THE SUPREME COURT.
Do Obama's appointments resemble Bush's in any way?

Only the idiots of the earth will forget that in the voting booth.

Presidents come and go but justices last a lifetime.

And Independent is not a party. It means your genius friend just gave up his primary rights unless he's in an open primary state which I hope to God I never am.

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thelordofhell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. No
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Obama "occupied" Iraq and Afganistan. Fail on point 1.
Tell you friend to vote for Sarah Palin.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. His policies are such that Republicans have to make stuff up about him to criticize.
What does that tell you?
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. Corrections to your supposed "list" of sins:
No progress for the health-insured or the uninsured
FALSE. HE PASSED THE ONLY HEALTH REFORM ACT IN THE COUNTRY'S HISTORY. IT SPECIFICALLY AIMS AT THE UNINSURED AND THE POOR (IT DOES NOTHING FOR THE ALREADY-INSURED MIDDLE CLASS WHO GET INS. THRU EMPLOYER)

No platform to help the poor
SEE ABOVE. (Subsizes health insurance for the poor...if you're middle class, you get no help. If you have lousy ins. through your employer, you get no help. You have to be poor and uninsured.)

ALSO, THE COUNTRY ALREADY HAS MEDICAID (fed gives to states, who implement their own Medicaid programs; states also have varying welfare, food stamps, etc.) THIS IS ONLY FOR THE POOR.

OBAMA CUT INCOME TAXES, SO IF YOU ARE "POOR," BUT NOT POOR ENUF TO GET OUT OF INCOME TAXES, YOU PAY LESS BECAUSE OF OBAMA.

IF YOU LOST YOUR JOB DURING THE LAST RECESSION, OBAMA AND THE DEMS PASSED EXTENSIONS FOR UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS....TWICE. OVER THE LOUD SCREAMING OBJECTIONS OF REPUBLICANS.

More of a Divider than Uniter
SUBJECTIVE OPINION. MANY DISAGREE WITH YOU.

Policy favors Individual wealth over the Commonwealth
IT'S NOT PART OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY POLICY TO BE AGAINST INDIVIDUAL WEALTH. YOU'LL HAVE TO LOOK AT A DIFFERENT POLITICAL PARTY, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT. WE LIVE IN A CAPITALISTIC COUNTRY, WHERE ALL THE LAWS AND RULES ARE GEARING TOWARD PEOPLE AIMING TOWARD THEIR DREAMS ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS. THE DEM. PARTY ALSO BELIEVES IN A NET TO HELP THE MOST DISADVANTAGED, WHEREAS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY DOES NOT. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THE DEM. PARTY IS AGAINST INDIVIDUAL WEALTH. QUITE THE CONTRARY (thank goodness...I bought a house. My "individual wealth," my "American dream" realized through many years of struggles, adversity, and hard work. It's just a little house. Nothin' fancy. But it's the sort of thing that our country wants to see happen for individuals.)


Guantanomo
I GUESS SOME CARE ABOUT THIS. BUT I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE CARE MUCH ABOUT THIS. He should've given this more thought before he made promises re Guantanomo.

Hires corrupt Republican career pols to key posts
I DON'T KNOW OF ANY CONVICTED CRIMINALS HE'S APPTD TO KEY POSTS. Do you have their names?

No resistance to media consolidation
THAT'S NOT THE PROVINCE OF THE PRESIDENCY, ALTHOUGH HE COULD SPEAK ABOUT IT. BUT HE'S GOT A FEW THINGS ON HIS PLATE LATELY.

Diplomacy not a priority
HIS STRENGTH HAS BEEN HIS DIPLOMACY.

No protection for Net Neutrality
YOU THINK HE CAN SIGN AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ON THIS, YOU MEAN? I don't think so. Again, this is not w/in the realm of Presidential duties.

Thinks “reform” only applies to programs for poor and middle class
WHAT PROGRAMS FOR THE POOR AND ONLY MIDDLE CLASS DID HE REFORM, TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS? I'm unaware of any.

Lobbyist Lover
BOTH PARTIES ARE GUILTY. (can you say "Ralph Nader"?)

Estate tax and capital gains tax rates preserved, accelerating consolidation of wealth
THE DEATH TAX STILL EXISTS. As I've mentioned before, capital gains taxes and deductions are the way to get wealthy people's $$$, but people in this forum consistently disagree, thinking it's the main tax % number that matters. It doesn't. CAPITAL GAINS TAX RATES ARE SET TO EXPIRE AT SOME POINT, AT WHICH THEY'LL RETURN TO A HIGHER LEVEL. But it's not only the wealthy that it helps; many retirees live on fixed income from bond funds and such, and they benefit from the lower rates; they are not necessarily wealthy, since that's all they have to live on for decades.

Won’t prosecute war crimes, bank fraud or corruption on Wall St.
WAR CRIMES BY TOP LEVEL PEOPLE ARE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE. I don't want the govt spending millions and wasting time pursuing something that's iffy at best, while the global economy is crumbling around us. I DO CARE ABOUT THE BANK FRAUD AND INVESTMENT COMPANY CORRUPTION THAT HASN'T BEEN PROSECUTED. Considering all that they caused...and are continuing to do things NOW that caused the problems...they should be prosecuted. I GUESS THAT IS THE A.G.'S DUTY, and I'm thinking that A.G. isn't very good.

Will prosecute wistleblowers and baseball players
Anyone who breaks the law and there's a good chance they can be prosecuted successfully, should be. Even if you like the alleged criminal.

Unlimited Military budget and no-bid contracts
FALSE: THE MILITARY BUDGET IS NOT UNLIMITED.

Decreases States’ funding, leading to property tax increase and local service cuts
YES, WE ARE OUT OF MONEY, ON BOTH A FEDERAL AND STATE LEVEL. THANK YOU, GEORGE BUSH.

Won’t say NO to entitlement threats
I'LL GRANT YOU THIS ONE. I WANT TO SEE A STRONG POSITION ON THIS.

Massive handouts to Military, Banking and Insurance industries
I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY HANDOUTS TO THE BANKING INDUSTRIES, OTHER THAN MAKING BAILOUTS AND LOANS LIKE THEY DID FOR GM, TO PREVENT AN ECONOMIC COLLAPSE. That's not the same as a "handout" or "welfare." THE HEALTH REFORM ACT, OTOH, is a handout to the ins. industry, IMO.

Offshore drilling regardless of devastating environmental impact
TRUE

Dismantles Education
FALSE

Indefinitely detains suspects without Constitutional rights
Oh, that again.

Allows Banksters to create modern day sharecropping
No response necessary. Not a serious complaint with facts.

Tax Breaks for Billionaires
YES. WE KNOW WHY...SO they could move on and pass three other bills during the lame duck session. But yeah, this was a disappointment. Strategically, I understand why, though. (BTW, it wasn't just for billionaries; it was tax breaks for everyone, but proportionately more for the very wealthy.)

Supports ridiculous CEO compensation at workers’ expense
HUH?

Won’t even talk about making Elections safe and secure
HUH?

Torture. That’s right--torture
HUH?

Outsourcing over job creation
FALSE. Blame Clinton for this.

MIA when Public Employees’ rights and benefits targeted nationwide
GOOD. That was a state issue; our President can't get involved with state issues like that. He DID make a statement about it, though, as did Biden.

Won’t address unaffordable college tuition for most kids
YOU MEAN COLLEGE TUITION CHARGED BY STATES? You want the federal government to get involved in what Texas charges for its colleges? The fed govt subsidizes some tuition, I think, and has cut grants and subsidizing programs, I think. BAD.

Friends with Walmart
SO AM I. I AM NOT EVIL.

Demands “sacrifice” from Working Class Americans, not billionaires
I HAVEN'T HEARD HIM SAY HE WANTS WORKING CLASS TO SACRIFIC BUT NOT BILLIONAIRES.

Free trade, not FAIR trade
HE'S NOT A FREE TRADER.

And this just in...
Building re-election on money, not policy
I have no idea what this means. All politicans need lots of $$$ to run for office, so...you're thinking you don't want Obama to have $$$?

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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Obama signed an Executive Order to close Guantanomo, then Congress defunded the move. n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. At which point the President was rendered utterly powerless ever to pursue the matter again.
Because no President has ever fought the Congress, see? And the executive branch has no other means by which to accomplish any goal, if there is a single Congressional vote against it.

Do you use the same excuse for Dawn Johnsen and Elizabeth Warren, by the way?
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The OP is about the differences between Obama and Bush. I was pointing to one.
Edited on Sun Apr-10-11 05:20 PM by Tx4obama
Bush NEVER signed an EO to close Gitmo - Obama did.

Facts are our friends :)

---
Edited to change 'and' to 'an'.

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. No, you were providing an apology for one of the most shameful episodes.
Edited on Sun Apr-10-11 05:51 PM by JackRiddler
An effort was announced to correct a crime against humanity that Bush started. This effort ended in a shameful fold at the first sign of resistance.

The crime of Guantanamo remains a crime against humanity. It is still being committed today, but no longer under the auspices of a Bush but of an Obama administration, which has now announced its plans to go ahead with the "military tribunals" (kangaroo show trials) first proposed by Bush.

Those are also facts, did you know?

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Call Me Wesley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. "Gay Rights?"
Did I miss the memo? I'm highly (foreign) critical of Obama, but that sentence you just posted doesn't make any sense. In fact, it does make sense, for you. I think you and your buddy have a lot in common, which, of course, is always a good thing. If I were you.

I hope you'll have many more honest discussions with him, without partisan bias, just buddy-wise good discussions. And bless your kids and their future. :hi:
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chowder66 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. How about voting for blind cheerleaders?
Then make a list of how much they are just like bush. You know "Friends of Walmart"!
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-10-11 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
20. Allow me to UnReKKK this. Further. (& I'm an enemy of UnReKKK.) n/t
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