Another jaw dropper..White House says Holbrook was joking

[xiamiam]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/14/holbrooke-last-words-afghanistan-obama_n_796628.html

WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration is trying to dismiss the reported last words of veteran diplomat Richard Holbrooke, its point person on Afghanistan and Pakistan who passed away this week, as a joke.

Administration officials said Tuesday that Holbrooke's final words, "You've got to stop this war in Afghanistan," were part of a jovial back-and-forth with the medical staff.

"At one point, the medical team said, 'You've got to relax,'" State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters on Tuesday, relaying what he said he had heard from people who were in the room with Holbrooke at George Washington University Hospital. "And Richard said, 'I can't relax, I'm worrying about Afghanistan and Pakistan.' After some additional exchanges ... finally said, 'Tell you what, we'll try to fix this challenge while you're in surgery.' And said, 'Yeah, see if you can take care of that,' including ending the war."

Added Crowley: "But certainly, it says two things about Richard Holbrooke in my mind. Number one, he always wanted to make sure he got the last word. And secondly, it just showed how he was singularly focused on pursuing and advancing the process and the policies in Afghanistan and Pakistan to bring them to a successful conclusion."

[NightWatcher]

1. Are you fucking kidding me? Orwell's spinning like mad. Ladies and Germs meet Minitrue

[villager]

2. so anything we believed Obama capable of when voting for him is now a "joke?"

:shrug:

[HEyHEY]

111. I don't recall him saying he was going to pull out.

I recall him saying he was going to step it up in an attempt to get out sooner.

[StarsInHerHair]

114. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000 ,000

nt

[Foo Fighter]

115. Not exactly. He was really serious when he said he would repeal the Bush tax

cuts and use it to pay for Health Care Reform. Oh wait...he wasn't serious. He was campaigning. Big difference. My bad.

[Hawkeye-X]

3. I call bullshit on the WH's thinking.

When you're about to die, you NEVER joke.

[sharp_stick]

12. As someone who spent many hours

manning an ER, people do joke all the time while in there. It's an amazing coping mechanism for the patients and the staff. Most people in the ER don't think or believe that they are dying.

[Lucky 13]

He wasn't in the ER

He was going into surgery.

[pnwmom]

24. I cracked a joke when I was going into surgery 6 months ago.

It's a tension reliever that many of us automatically turn to.

[xiamiam]

32. did it have anything to do with peace? ending wars? does anyone crack jokes

deathbed or not, about such a thing?

[pnwmom]

44. That was his job. Of course it was on his mind. But LOTS of

people crack morbid jokes as they're going under the knife.

But he was just being ironic and expressing his frustration. Why are people making such a big deal out of this?

[geardaddy]

138. Me too.

I remember cracking a joke to my family as I was being wheeled into the OR for my renal transplant. I could see the concern on their faces, so I simply said with a kind of evil grin, "I'm not wearing any pants." That broke the tension. lol

[sharp_stick]

29. Also a good spot for jokes

again, it's a common coping mechanism.

It doesn't have to be an ER, that's just where I happened to spend most of my time. You wouldn't expect these high pressure tense situations to be a good spot to joke but they are.

[SkyDaddy7]

162. Don't bother trying to bring reason or at least a hint of rational thinking...

to this latest OBAMA BASHING SESSION...It just breaks the rythm of non stop hyperbolic attacks which is not good for DU morale.

However, I appreciate your first hand experience in these matters...Thanks!

[xiamiam]

163. classless and indefensible on its own..nt

[pnwmom]

20. You clearly have never worked with many people who are about to die.

But I would think you would have met at least one by now. The first dying person I met who joked was my own grandfather. I was ten and I never forgot it. He had cracked jokes all his life and he didn't stop -- all the way to the end.

[BrklynLiberal]

Even if true..they should have just left it alone...

What would have been the harm?.

[pnwmom]

43. What would have been the harm in giving him complete privacy

in his last moments? The Obama administration didn't start this. They were trying to put it into context.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

134. So you are saying that a top diplomat

was joking when he said the war in Afghanistan should end?

You are thinking that he really thinks the war should continue and the idea of the war ending would be so ludicrous it would be a joke. Am I right?

Thank goodness for Obama sorting that out for us, aye? :crazy:

[geardaddy]

139. That's a bingo!

Way to steer someone's last words to your political advantage. Yeccch.

[OKNancy]

28. I call bullshit on the spin of the Huffington Post writer n/t

[bushisanidiot]

52. You act as if he KNEW he was going to die.

why spin a conspiracy theory out of his death?

this Obama hatred on DU is FUCKING INSANE!

[krabigirl]

4. No, it is the Obama administration that is a joke.

[pnwmom]

5. A dying man was being ironic. He knew the medical people

couldn't stop the war, and he was clearly frustrated that he hadn't been able to complete the mission.

I can't imagine why anyone would make a big deal out of this, except for Drudge, maybe.

[Lucky 13]

13. I've never known one who is imminently dying to be ironic.

In my experience, it's the time when almost anyone and everyone gets very very very real.

[pnwmom]

31. I have. My own grandfather was being ironic and making

wisecracks to the very end. It was so much a part of him -- just as his loving nature was so much a part of him. Neither disappeared when he was dying.

[xiamiam]

46. was he making jokes about war and peace?

[pnwmom]

71. He wasn't dealing with those issues on a day to day basis, as Holbrook was.

If you read the entire original WP article, the exchange that is being reported now is entirely in keeping with the description of Holbrook's personality.

[subterranean]

53. Perhaps he didn't know he was going to die. nt

[treestar]

126. Exactly, he was going into surgery, not "dying"

These were not his "dying" words in the deathbed sense.

[xiamiam]

15. right..most dying people tend to joke ..nt

[pnwmom]

34. Some do. And I, like Holbrook, joked with the staff as I was

going into surgery. For many of us it helps us feel less fearful and more in control.

[Sal Minella]

89. He wasn't "dying." He was going into surgery to have an aortic

tear repaired --

I'm sure he anticipated coming out of surgery, recuperating, and continuing with his life and work.

[liberation]

145. Huh?

You should not make assumptions about what people anticipate when going into very serious in extremis surgery with little possibilities for survival.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

66. Whether Holbrooke was or wasn't joking --

is really not the ugly part of it. What is UGLY is that this Administration took it upon themselves to speak for a dead man.

Classless, utterly classless.

[PearliePoo2]

161. that's correct!

Ugly is putting their spin on it to cover their ass when the deceased is not able to respond.
Mr. President: GET OUT NOW.

[Union Scribe]

85. You guys have to get your story straight

We're being told he was clearly joking because he knew he was dying, and others are saying he was clearly joking because he didn't know he was going to die.

I'm seeing apologists take any interpretation besides the obvious one: that he wasn't joking at all.

[JVS]

95. They might as well say "He was delirious from the drugs"

:-(

[geardaddy]

140. Excellent point.

[xiamiam]

6. i think they should have left this one alone no matter how badly they want to be in afghanistan

just not right

[BrklynLiberal]

21. Sometimes it shows a great command of the English language to say nothing at all.

[Lucky 13]

7. I just read that. It's shameful.

Not that anyone cares or is listening.

[Robb]

8. Makes more sense than the first story.

[Lucky 13]

17. How so?

[Robb]

33. "You've got to stop the war in Afghanistan."

"You've," not "we've" or "they've."

Odd thing to have laid at the feet of your surgeon and anesthesiologist. In the context provided this makes more sense.

That said, poor judgment to trot this out. Was it in response to a question? I'd assume so.

[Robb]

63. Ah, here we go:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkpoint-washington/2010/12/holbrookes_final_words_on_the.html

....As Dr. Jehan El-Bayoumi was attending to Holbrooke in the emergency room at George Washington University Hospital, she told him to relax and asked what she could do to comfort him, according to an aide who was present. Holbrooke, who was in severe pain, said jokingly that it was hard to relax because he had to worry about the difficult situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

El-Bayoumi, an Egyptian-American internist who is Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton's physician, replied that she would worry for him. Holbrooke responded by telling her to end the war, the aide said.

The aide said he could not be sure of Holbrooke's exact words. He emphasized Tuesday that the comment was made in painful banter, rather than as a serious exhortation about policy. Holbrooke also spoke extensively about his family and friends as he awaited surgery by Farzad Najam, a thoracic surgeon of Pakistani descent....

[Ichingcarpenter]

68. Making Believe....

Now its up to the Moslem doctors that were there.

Oh,...... now I see its a joke.

[Robb]

69. You'll have to explain that one to me.

[Individualist]

9. White House pisses on Holbrooke's grave

They should be ashamed, but anyone who makes a statement like that has no shame.

[xiamiam]

18. agreed..it is shameful..nt

[dflprincess]

Right. His life is in danger, he's about to have surgery,

he may have had a few drugs in his system and he decides to make a joke out of Afghanistan.

Not. Buying. It.

[Sal Minella]

62. "You've got to relax." = Docs trying to do their job.

"You've got to stop the war in Afghanistan" = Holbrooke still trying to do HIS job.

I worked in a hospital for seven years.
Humor gets us through, patients and staff both.

I can easily see this conversation happening.

[WilliamPitt]

10. Assholes.

[Botany]

11. Most people "crack wise" from their deathbed.

:banghead:

[phleshdef]

25. He didn't even know he was "on his deathbed". He was about to have surgery.

[pnwmom]

37. So? I was joking with the staff on the way to my surgery.

It was either that or cry. And I'd rather make people laugh.

[Botany]

38. He knew it was deadly serious

They were working on a aortic dissection.

Aortic dissection is a tear in the wall of the aorta that causes blood to flow between the layers of the wall of the aorta and force the layers apart.<1> Aortic dissection is a medical emergency and can quickly lead to death, even with optimal treatment. If the dissection tears the aorta completely open (through all three layers), massive and rapid blood loss occurs. Aortic dissections resulting in rupture have an 80% mortality rate, and 50% of patients die before they even reach the hospital. If the dissection reaches 6 cm, the patient must be taken for emergency surgery

Holbrooke's last words were to his surgeon: "You've got to end this war in Afghanistan.

From Wiki

[xiamiam]

42. +1

[Ilsa]

65. Count me in with Botany. He knew the score. nt

[pnwmom]

74. Ever watch MASH? People can be ironic and make wisecracks

even as they're being led into surgery. Ask any surgeons you know.

[girl gone mad]

92. OMG, you're comparing this to a tv show?

This is the real world.

My grandfather died on the table having this same surgery. He knew he was going to die, and he made his last words count, too.

[pnwmom]

105. Good for your grandfather. But that TV show was a good depiction

of a way a lot of us deal with suffering -- through humor.

Here's a post from someone else who knows:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=9131&mesg_id=10166

[treestar]

128. It was a fairly realistic TV show

Attempting to depict something seriously. People do joke in extreme situations. They need it to keep their energies up.

[cherokeeprogressive]

99. Is it okay if those "surgeons" I ask are actors as well? How about the patients? Can I ask

any actor who's played a dying person and reasonably expect them to be experts on the subject?

You're trying too hard.

[pnwmom]

106. Here's someone else with real life experience.

Confronted with pain and suffering, some of us cry. Some of us spit. Some of us use the same coping mechanism we've used all our lives: we laugh -- or try to make others do so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=9131&mesg_id=10166

[mod mom]

141. plus you don't joke about a war in which so many lives have been lost or ruined.

UFB!

[me b zola]

64. Do you believe that he wasn't aware of how dire his medical situation was?

If he was alert then it was he who gave informed consent for surgery. Unless the medical team lied their asses off about the seriousness of his condition--and I believe that even if they did he was wise enough to understand the graveness of his condition--he knew that he didn't have great odds of coming out of that surgery alive.

[pnwmom]

84. Many people deal with fear by using humor -- right up to the end.

Ask any surgeon. They've heard it all.

[BrklynLiberal]

14. EVEN if that were true....I think it is despicable to announce it. Like ending the war is such a

terrible last wish??????

If only this was a story from the Onion...I find this disgusting!!!
Belittling the man's last words...That is beyond comprehension.

What would have been the harm in leaving it as it was...his last wish was for peace?

[xiamiam]

27. it is beyond creepy..nt

[Javaman]

58. It really is...

I can hear chaney laughing his raspy laugh over it.

This single comment is the beginning of a very long slide down.

To me, it's a kind of "through the looking glass" type of moment.

[JVS]

94. I'm with you.

[treestar]

129. Everyone wants to end the war

It's the unrealistic who think it can be done with a snap of the fingers who were so eager to use this very ill man's words going into surgery as some kind of hammer on those not doing it fast enough for them (but who actually had to deal with it).

The outrage here is about that. About not having that hammer any more.

[LibraLiz1973]

135. +1,111,111,111,111,111

[nyc 4 Biden]

147. youre on the money! i agree. n/t

[CTyankee]

157. I think the truth is somewhere in the middleof the two extremes but I agree

that it would be better for the WH not to have made further comment. They probably felt embarrassed by the quote and wanted to mute the seriousness of Holdbrooke's words as first reported. But in doing what they did, they just opened themselves up for more criticism. Better to leae it alone.

[pscot]

16. The dialogue rings true

Not to say they aren't spinning, but it sounds like a real conversation.

[pnwmom]

39. It does. n/t

[katnapped]

19. OK, I GOTTA ask

Are we SURE there aren't giant pods in the backyard at the WH?

[Crankie Avalon]

22. His last words were a joke about Afghanistan?

"You've got to stop this war in Afghanistan...just kidding. Thank you, thank you...I won't be here all week. Try the veal."

[TeeYiYi]

47. Good one Crankie... :D

Made me smile...

Oh, and, I'm not buyin' the WH revisionist history either. I've never joked before going under anesthesia because I knew the chances were good that I'd never wake up.

TYY

[Union Scribe]

86. Exactly, it doesn't sound right at all.

[WiffenPoof]

118. LOLOLOLOLOL

Stop...you're killing me.

-PLA

[OKNancy]

23. This reporter used the word joke and "dismiss". If you just read

what the White House people said and not the reporters spin, it isn't as bad as this person writes.

[pnwmom]

41. Exactly. The reporter framed it in a negative way. n/t

[Ramulux]

26. That's some sick shit

I think anybody holding out hope for Obama and his administration are deluding themselves. This is inexcusable, they are twisting a dying mans last words to promote their agenda. I am so fucking done with this white house.

[peace13]

30. Why were his last words made public?

Who knows what drug were running through his veins. I think his privacy would have been served if folks would have kept their mouths shut. If I ever hear about my dying words being printed I am going to be pretty upset!

[xiamiam]

35. what you really wouldnt like is IF they were printed and someone else interpreted them for you.nt

[Odin2005]

36. Bullshit.

[SalviaBlue]

40. Sounds plausible to me.

[asjr]

45. If I ever lose my sense of humor I am a goner!

[pnwmom]

75. Absolutely! n/t

[Turbineguy]

There's a time to shut the fuck up.

although when I was about to have major surgery, I was asked what I was allergic to and answered, "republicans."

[Sal Minella]

133. Some people would think this is not funny

and apparently many of them post on public message boards.

I think it's a stitch, and I'm sure some of the staff around you at the time felt the same!

[katty]

48. WTF...is jovial about Afghanistan or Iraq??!!!

the government and its shills are running on empty.

[xiamiam]

50. if he were going to joke, as they say, this is not subject matter anyone would joke about.

duh

[Union Scribe]

87. The WH is trying to make him look like an ass

cracking jokes about a mess of a war. It's bull.

[Javaman]

49. dupe nt

[City Lights]

51. That's a jaw-dropper alright!

:wow: Just :wow:

[meow mix]

54. he really meant "continue the war indefinitely"

is what they mean to infer?

[Javaman]

55. wow, just wow.

trying to spin a dead mans words is the fucking lowest of low.

I can see it now...

Holbrook: Oh yeah, one last thing! And get this! That crazy ass war that we are fighting over in Afghanistan? Yeah that one. Get this, We got to stop it! LOLOLOLOL Isn't that a rip roaring riot?!

If I wasn't totally disgusted with the fucking half wits in the in administration before, I certainly am now.

That is one fucking galling statement. They have entered into the george w. moron* lack of tact area.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Note to WH, having heard dying man's last words a few times

no, he was not joking....

Listen up to the man.

Of course it is against policy... but no, a man who id dying does not joke.

[pnwmom]

80. Some dying people do joke. My grandfather was joking

and I know because I was there. People who joke or kid people all their lives don't necessarily stop as they're being led into surgery. It's a coping mechanism. I teased my doctor on the way into some serious surgery and he teased me back. It released the tension. I'd rather laugh than cry.

[arikara]

116. My husband has had heart surgery several times

and more than once he didn't think he would come out of it. And those were the times that he was the most jovial and wisecracking before he went in to surgery. As much as I would like to think the man had a epiphany, I suspect most likely what they say is true.

That said, I hope where he is now that he believes the war should be ended.

[PufPuf23]

57. That is sick shit that the WH even made a comment., Disgusting. nt

[subterranean]

59. Well obviously he was joking...I mean, why would anyone want to end the war?

[taught_me_patience]

60. Because Afghanistan is just so fucking funny

I know I wouldn't be able to refrain from cracking jokes about it if I were about to die!

:sarcasm:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

61. Now THAT smells like -

desperation. :puke:

Really, how low can you go? Feeling the need to speak for a dead man's intention?

Zero class.

[theophilus]

67. This administration is moving from inept to evil, imo. n/t

[femrap]

70. It's official.....

this administration has gone over the edge into The Twilight Zone.

I fu*king can't believe this administration would say this about Holbrooke.

We're so over. Let the Decline continue...but faster from now on.

[OKNancy]

72. another less biased report

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/12/the-context-of-ambassador-richard-holbrookes-final-words.html

[xiamiam]

76. different report ..still renders valid what was on his mind..end the war if afghanistan

which he was stressed over..still not appropriate to dismiss his last concerns as not serious

[bigtree]

100. well, the administration believes their actions are 'ending' the 'war'

. . . and Ambassador Holbrooke was a strong supporter (and promoter) of the administration effort.

It doesn't stand to reason that he was contradicting any of that in the exchange with his doctor. At any rate . . .

the WaPo quotes an 'aide' who was reportedly present when the exchange took place (along with several other people who've corroborated the account: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkpoint-washington/...


____ As Dr. Jehan El-Bayoumi was attending to Mr. Holbrooke in the emergency room at George Washington University Hospital, she told him to relax and asked what she could do to comfort him, according to an aide who was present. Holbrooke, who was in severe pain, said jokingly that it was hard to relax because he had to worry about the difficult situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

El-Bayoumi, an Egyptian-American internist who is Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton's physician, replied that she would worry for him. Holbrooke responded by telling her to end the war, the aide said.

The aide said he could not be sure of Holbrooke's exact words. He emphasized Tuesday that the comment was made in painful banter, rather than as a serious exhortation about policy. Holbrooke also spoke extensively about his family and friends as he awaited surgery by Farzad Najam, a thoracic surgeon of Pakistani descent.

read: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkpoint-washington/2010/12/holbrookes_final_words_on_the.html

[pnwmom]

73. Doesn't anyone besides me remember MASH?

The serious comedy set in the Vietnam era starring Alan Alda?

In the midst of war and peace and suffering and death -- yes, people DO joke. Both patients and doctors. It's a coping mechanism.

It might not be YOUR coping mechanism, but I can well believe -- based on the long articles about him -- that it was one of Holbrook's.

[xiamiam]

78. uh..mash was a tv comedy show..and while i liked it..it was a comedy show..nt

[pnwmom]

81. And the use of humor in war was realistic. Doctors do have senses of humor

and so do many of their patients. Many of us would rather laugh than cry, and so we crack morbid jokes.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

104. So? They were his last words in the context of a broader exchange,

which the WP writer left out of his article.

[Sal Minella]

91. I worked in a hospital that was **NOT** a comedy show, and

brutal, sarcastic humor abounded, exactly like MASH.

If you haven't worked around terribly sick and injured people, and the people struggling to save their lives and limbs, I respectfully suggest you try actually working in a hospital before you make sweeping judgments on how vapidly humorless we all are in the face of suffering and death.

[xiamiam]

113. unfortunately sal, while i have not worked in a hospital, i have spent much time

in surgeries, radiation, etc..before and after surgery..you neednt be mean..i just said that mash is a comedy show..which it is..i do not make sweeping judgments..i know from first hand experience at some of the best hospitals in the country...so get over yourself

[Sal Minella]

130. "Mean?" . . . . Heavens to Betsy,

If you honestly feel my post was "mean," I fear that your emotional nature may be far, far too sensitive to weather posting on a public message board.

[xiamiam]

132. lol..snarky..stop it..stop trying to drag my personality or emotional whatever into it..

tiresome..and irrelevant

[Iggo]

77. How dare they shit on a dying man's last words.

Goddam shameful is what it is.

[lamp_shade]

79. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME????

[TheCowsCameHome]

82. I hit "unrec" mistake - help me, someone.

Gawd, what a stupid mistake.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

83. Took care of it for you.

:hi:

[TheCowsCameHome]

98. Thank you. I appreciate that.

:yourock:

[Scurrilous]

88. Unrecced.

HuffPo = scurrilous garbage

[JVS]

93. Death bed levity.

[JVS]

96. This just in: HIS FINGERS WERE CROSSED AND HE WINKED WHEN HE SAID IT

[fascisthunter]

97. wanting to end the war is a joke?

yeah, I'm sure our vets with PTSD and the families that their sons and daughters would agree. :crazy: :think:

[JI7]

101. no, telling the doctor to deal with the war while he relaxes was the joke

[Sal Minella]

131. Exactly. Why is this such a difficult idea for some people?

[NutmegYankee]

102. Oh for fucks sake...

The entire mission for this man was to end the war safely.

[bigtree]

103. actually

. . . his mission was to smooth the way with foreign officials for administration policy regarding Afghanistan and Pakistan; including strong support for the premise of the U.S.military engagement, and, shared the President's perspective of Afghanistan as a sanctuary for al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x10269

[struggle4progress]

107. I'm beginning to lose all respect for the assholes who write at HuffPo

[On the Road]

108. So It Would Make More Sense to Believe Holbrooke

was seriously pleading with his doctors to end the war in Afghanistan?

[Catherina]

109. How low some have fallen to pretend war and peace is any sort of a joke. REC'D n/t

[niceypoo]

110. Why is this administration so thin skinned?

They are a bunch of drama queens.

[BlueIris]

123. He had one (narrow) mandate.

Secure our position in Afghanistan. That was it. There was very little in the way of a plan to govern the nation, it was all about this war. So his minions have their marching orders to guard the "integrity" of this objective in every way, above all else, even if it means mocking the last words of a deceased man.

[HEyHEY]

112. I'm sure he was joking.... but being serious at the same time.

As in he knows they couldn't stop the war, so he may have been being glib.

[Sal Minella]

125. Exactly.

The doc could "make him more comfortable" by ending the war.

[inna]

117. disgusting. this is becoming morbidly creepy at this point.

[pecwae]

119. Sick, just fucking sick.

To spin a man's conversation while in critical medical condition so as to make this administration look good? I guess I can now say I've heard it all.

[Still a Democrat]

120. Given the context, I see the White House's point

As much as I think we need to leave sooner rather than later, this puts the comments in a far different light.

[Bluebear]

137. It's bizarre that the White House would even comment on this. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

121. As someone who attends a fair number of deathbed vigils...

There is probably no way anyone can make any sort of definitive determination regarding his state of mind. To do so is irresponsible and, in my opinion, disrespectful.

[mmonk]

122. When a war promoter tells you to get out, I guess calling it a joke

is the way to dismiss it and control the message.

[DirkGently]

124. Whatever the man said or meant the idea of the gov't trying to spin it politically is repellant.

[libmom74]

165. thank you

you are exactly right. and also wtf ever happened to HIPPA? i work at a hospital and whoever told the newspapers what his last words were (unless it was a family member) needs to be fired.

[n2doc]

127. The jokes on us for believing in this administration n/t

[xiamiam]

136. an article clarifying Holbrookes' position

snip
According to White House insiders, Holbrooke was an outspoken critic of Obama’s Afghan strategy, as it was being developed in advance of last year’s West Point speech. The much-discussed policy of a troop surge followed by a hasty withdrawal seemed ill-considered to the veteran diplomat, who cut his foreign policy teeth on the catastrophe of Vietnam.

“It can’t work,” he is reported to have said of the White House plan. Holbrooke was opposed to an escalation of the war without a clear exit strategy, something that he said loudly and repeatedly.

According to “Obama??s Wars,” Bob Woodward’s detailed account of the debates surrounding Obama’s Afghanistan policy, this earned him the impatience and even the distrust of the White House incumbent.

“Holbrooke believed that had not acknowledged a central truth: The war — or the American role in the war — would not end in military victory,” wrote Woodward. Holbrooke, he added, believed in reconciliation — a genuine outreach to the other side.
snip

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/afghanistan/101214/richard-holbrooke-afghanistan-war-diplomacy

[Rex]

142. I am really starting to reevaluate my relationship with the Obama

administration. It has gone from avid supporter (and vote) to...I dunno anymore. I just don't know what to make out of the WH these days. I want to believe Obama has an out of control cabinet, but that would make him look weak. How do you take a dead mans last words and blow them off as a joke? And expect people to believe you? He didn't go into the operation thinking he would die or did he?

We have to get out of Afghanistan, BUT first let us depart from our criminal exploitations in Iraq!

[goforit]

143. BULLLL SHIIIIITTTT!!!

[GreenTea]

144. The "WH" is sickening - No difference than if Bush & Cheney were back in office!

The same exact lies and bullshit to keep the wars for corporate profit continuing!

The bombings, the deaths of innocent children, & all people, soldiers fed the lies are maimed & dying, destruction of peoples lands, like ALL wars for the elite to make more & more profits!

[davidthegnome]

146. AHAHAHAHAH FUNNY FUNNY

Wait. What am I saying? FUCKING ASSHOLES! Every member of congress, everyone in the frigging house and senate (no exceptions, at all) should be forced to go to Afghanistan and fight the fucking war they're insisting on continuing to fund and to fight. Put your fucking lives where OUR, (not your) I repeat, OUR, fucking tax dollars are you lying treacherous dirty fuckers.

[Tx4obama]

148. Yes. Holbrooke WAS joking with the the Pakistani doctor.

A family member said so.

[davidthegnome]

149. It is not "they the rich"

But "we the poor" who are facing increasing taxes over this bill - and therefor doing more to fund the god damn WAR EFFORT that none of us want to begin with. So even if I DO get lucky enough to get a job I'll be paying out more than some bright well street exec.

I will say now as I said in the early years of the Bush presidency..... REGIME CHANGE STARTS AT HOME

[polly7]

150. I think most people with an aortic tear know the possibility

of dying is very real and that the surgery itself is high risk. If this man was passionate about Afghanistan, I just can't see him joking about it. Joking about himself in some way to calm his family, maybe .... but not war, involving the suffering of others, something he must have cared about deeply. jmo.

[BlueJac]

151. Another case of a lack of good judgement.........

[NorthCarolina]

152. There is no change, and no hope. nt

[TheKentuckian]

153. I understand gallows humor but I don't see the joke here.

Gotta end this wasteful and poorly conceived war. Haha!

Sike! The war is great! Haha!

[JoePhilly]

156. Try this ...

The man knows he's going in for major surgery, and that he may die. He's nervous. The Doctors now that. They tell him to relax. He tells them that he's actually not nervous about his surgery, but about Afghanistan.

The docs tell him they'll take care of it ... he basically says ... ok then ... as long as you guys have that covered, now I can relax.

He's not joking about Afghanistan per se, he's joking about his own IMMEDIATE anxiety regarding the surgery as if there is some other reason for him to be nervous at that moment.

[TheKentuckian]

171. Possible but not a clear contender for fact.

[fadedrose]

154. When Holbrook told this joke, who was he expecting to laugh?

Seems to me he had the wrong audience to appreciate his great humor....

[defendandprotect]

155. Holbrooke was kind of the one member of the team anyone could

feel slight confidence in --

THIS is a truly ODD response --

Presume Holbrooke had heart problems?

Sounds almost as though they're trying to cover something up -- ???

Granted, the war -- notice how little challenge they can handle to the war --

Evidently, there's a bit of an anti-war holiday because we have a "D" in the White House?

Wow!!

Behind the cover of war .... much mischief is done.

[fatbuckel]

158. Anyone know if the hospital he was taken to is "connected" in any way to the "others"?

You know, the people who get things "taken care of". Some corporation(s) that maybe would`nt like the wars ended.

[cascadiance]

159. F'ing Classless!

This administration continues to get me on the third party wagon each day it opens its mouth!

And to think they say this about a man who can't "correct" them! How f'ing convenient!

[BrownieGman]

160. Love of life...

In the face of life's door,,,- A diplomat calls for "LIFE" ..and not WAR ...!

... Is he American ??.... Show me the birth certif...

[hulka38]

164. Joke or no joke, ending the war must have weighed heavily

on the man. I don't think the WH can context away from that point.

[Deep13]

166. bullshit. nt

[karynnj]

167. This actually makes sense

The fact is that Holbroke and many are working for just that - getting out of Afghanistan. Here is a link to his most recent appearance at the SFRC. Especially in his discussion with Kerry, it is clear that there were major difficulties, but he makes the point that this is essential. http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/hearing/?id=6e4bb067-5056-a032-521f-a829d8b3f86c

[Bette Noir]

168. "Many a truth is said in jest."

[Grinchie]

169. Help the Bombardier? I'm the Bombardier!

Just another day in the exposure of a failing regime.

It's not Democrat or Republican anymore, but the Oligarchs on top that are taking control of the message and failing miserably at it because of fear induced stupidity.

They fear the loss of control, and in my analysis, want to quickly foment a revolution in order to induce chaos, cause important documents to be destroyed in the chaos, and divert attention from the real culprits behind this worlwide Ponzi scheme that has tentancles around every facet of human life, control investments, allocates healthcare, witholds food from starving people, and all the other dirty deeds that go on with molding people into subservient sheep.

Lets surprise them by not resorting to violence, and by just focusing on making all of our lives easier, by witholding everything from them, such as money, obedience, and labor.

They need us to wipe their ass, mow their lawns, cook their food, man the guardpost, etc.. Just refuse.

[Marnie]

170. Why would the make any comment on their envoy's last conversation?

Much less stoop to trying rewrite the obvious meaning of the words, regardless of when he spoke them.

Classless, tacky, tasteless, thoughtless.

And pointless, they will convince no one.