Of bears and men: How big does a risk have to be before you "have to" walk around scared?

[Silent3]

Last edited Wed May 8, 2024, 12:02 AM - Edit history (1)

I think we all know that the great majority of sexual assaults are perpetrated by men a victim already knows: A family member, a (seeming) friend, cases of date rape.

Even before this whole bear vs. man thing got revved up on the internet, I'd often seen posts like this:



Yet rarest kind of sexual assault is a stranger attacking out of the blue in a park, a parking lot, or a dark alley.

That it's rare doesn't, of course, make it a matter of no concern. It's still a terrible thing. But the fear that women have about these kinds of attacks is often contrasted with what men supposedly experience out and about in the world, which is that they have so little need to be afraid they can't possibly appreciate the terror women have to live with.

But it's not like men don't get attacked. It's just seldom a sexual assault (unless it's a man in a prison). Men still, of course, get mugged and beaten up and knifed and shot and killed in random attacks out of the blue. Those things can be deeply traumatic, even without a sexual component.

I don't have exact statistics here. I know that back when I did a lot of hiking in New Hampshire, bear attacks were a pretty low risk. No one had been killed by a bear in NH since 1859, and getting mauled by one of the local black bears was pretty rare too.

Odds of bear attacks are certainly higher when grizzly bears are about, but even then, I don't think attacks are that frequent.

So, what about sexual assaults by men out in the woods, when a lone woman encounters a lone man? I'm sure it happens, but is it really such a large risk to get all worked up about, and worth demonizing men as if they are hugely more scary than wild bears?

I knew of some women hikers back in NH who would say things like, "If I'm alone in the woods, and run into a man, I'm going to shoot first and ask questions later!" I'm pretty sure that this was just tough talk, and not an actual plan of action... but jeez! Men aren't that dangerous!

I don't want to seem callous about the fear that many women experience. But isn't there something to be said about scaling down one's fear to be more in line with actual real-world risks?

[leftieNanner]

1. In a word

No. Trigger warning for what follows.

I entered an elevator in a parking garage in downtown San Francisco many years ago. A man slipped in at the last second. I stood in the front corner. Shortly before we arrived at my floor, I became somewhat aware of some rhythmic movement from him. It didn't fully register. The door opened at my floor. I exited. He started to follow, but then realized that this was a floor where there was a manned payment kiosk. He stepped back into the elevator. He was going to rape me, at the least.

So, no.

[Ocelot II]

2. If you were a woman you'd know the answer.

It's not a matter of the statistical probabilities of being attacked; it's a matter of the constant and very real threat. The fear arises from the fact that sexual harassment by strange men is constant even if actual physical attacks are less common. And you don't know whether the random guy who's calling you rude names, offering to do things to you, exposing himself to you, or otherwise being a pest will go even further. It's terrifying, and there isn't a woman alive not in a cloistered convent who hasn't been subjected to this kind of thing. So, not knowing whether the creepy guy on the street is just a sick fuck with a big mouth or is an actual rapist, you watch where you're going, you avoid dark parking garages, you don't go out at night alone, and you're afraid. Women are prey animals like rabbits and deer.

[wnylib]

109. Don't forget that even cloistered nuns interact with a priest in a confessional.

[NanaCat]

202. And worst of all?

Knowing that the less you prepared for the worst, the more you'll get the blame for what happens, and told you were 'asking for it.'

You'll get it even if you do 'all the right things,' but it will be exponentially worse for each and every deviation you took from that long list, no matter how small.

[LNM]

3. I wouldn't say I walk around scared, I walk around prepared.

I hike in the north woods, in my neighborhood woods and in the city. I’m most concerned about unleashed dogs. I’m not afraid of hiking in the north woods alone but I have asked my husband (he’s a very cordial older person) to stop asking single thru- hikers where they were heading. It was an awakening for him but he understood how that could be unsettling to some. I have thought of carrying bear-spray not for bears but for un-leashed dogs and for the unlikely human attack. I’ve instead decided to bring an air-horn. Nobody gets hurt, including me.

I don’t understand your animosity about people being afraid. How does this affect you?

[Silent3]

10. There's no animosity here, just wondering how much women are self-terrifying themselves...

...beyond what real-world risks would indicate makes sense.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. This kind of feels like the definition of "mansplaining".

I'm pretty sure that none of us really cares about your concern over whether we're "self-terrifying" ourselves beyond what you consider to be reasonable.

[Brenda]

214. Yes, it does and you're right, we don't care.

I thought sexism was against the TOS?

First of all, the statistics are lower for women being raped by strangers since women began performing those EXACT actions in order to avoid being raped and worse. The women's movement and enlightenment have probably save millions of women from being raped and murdered.

Read a little true crime and you'll see how "rare" stranger rape is. And when you factor in how low the god damned conviction rate is for rape and how going to trial re-rapes the woman and drags her whole life through the sewer, well, maybe that's why so many women don't report it thus further lowering the official record that men like to spit in our faces.

[betsuni]

221. +1

[Hekate]

28. Deliberate obtuseness is not attractive

Just sayin’

[Silent3]

32. Please, spell out what I'm being obtuse about

If you consider that being empathetic and supportive requires accepting how people feel about a risk to the point that actual real-world risk is essentially irrelevant, however, I will probably continue to be obtuse.

[Sparkly]

39. I'd dare say most women

have felt the threat of violence, and/or experienced it directly. Alertness is self-preservation and it is based on reality. It is NOT true that "actual real-world risk is essentially irrelevant," unless you are literally talking about walking home through a forest of bears and not an urban area of men.

[wryter2000]

42. You need to work on your empathy

I suggest you talk to a woman about instead of showing your ignorance.

[Silent3]

49. So, you do request performative empathy?

And I should encourage women, out of empathy for their experiences, to be more afraid than real-world risks might dictate? That's how I should do empathy?

[viva la]

94. "On average, there are 463,634 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the United States."

Just how blithe do you think we ought to be, given HALF A MILLION assaults every year?

[wnylib]

120. What do you know about "real world risks" for women?

Are you claiming to know the "reality" of women's experiences better than women do? Sounds like gaslighting to me.

[Silent3]

123. Risk, in the statistical sense, has nothing to do with personal experience

How risky something feels, yes, that's related to personal experience. But statistical risk has nothing to do with personal experience.

[wnylib]

170. Statistics also fall short of reality. If you don't know that yet, it's time you learned.

Not every experience of rape, mugging, theft, beatings, gets reported. Not every incident that is reported gets believed, which accounts for why they're not always reported. It is so commonplace that many women just "deal with it."

You know what women don't become statistics? Ones who experience valid feelings of fear in a threatening situation and are able to ward it off from escalating by paying attention to their prudent fears learned from experience. They get off an elevator or don't get on it when they mistrust a guy who's on it. They make a point of visibly pulling out their phone when being followed, or of rattling the keys in their hand. They walk into a public place when they encounter a stalker. They know better than to pay attention to gaslighters who try to convince them that they are overreacting.

So your claims about "statistical reality" are worthless. The statistics would be much higher if women did not listen to our experience of fear in threatening situations and act to avoid becoming a statistic.

Now, I've wasted enough of my time on responses to ridiculous attempts to convince women that we don't know how to recognize and avoid real danger.

[betsuni]

178. +1

[Dorian Gray]

195. Co-sign!

[mcar]

245. Well said

[viva la]

126. I remember when a man-friend explained to me that menstrual cramps came from being anxious---

the fear of getting menstrual cramps, see, caused women to clench up and be in pain. (No, he's not an OB/GYN, fortunately.)
He truly thought he was helping me out by explaining this to me-- a woman, who had experienced DECADES of menstruation.
SMH.

[Dorian Gray]

194. You have a whole thread of women

telling you that they experienced real world things that MADE THEM be alert to potential danger.

There are enough shitty men in this world to make women need to take preventative, self-preservative action. If you don't like it, teach the boys in your life to be respectful and not attack women and stop lecturing women about "perception of danger." We've all experienced it.

[NanaCat]

207. No, we expect you to, you know...

LISTEN TO US FOR A BLOODY CHANGE, rather than treating us like we're too stupid to know how to deal with rape.

[Caliman73]

286. Dude. As a man, I suggest you stop. Risk is 1:1 for women who are victimized.

Life is not an actuarial table. Most women are not "walking around self-terrorizing themselves" as you say. They understand that the risks are inherently higher for them to be assaulted or harassed.

Us men need to understand that they walk around with a risk that is pretty much non-existent for us, that we never have to think about.

Instead of questioning and doubting and trying to "explain", we should listen and shape our sons not to have sexist attitudes toward women. That is all we can do.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

290. What makes you think

women require or desire any kind of empathy from you?

Your attitude stinks.

[Hekate]

62. You are mansplaining, not being "empathetic. " As you're a DUer since the beginning, I expect more of you.

[Silent3]

66. I'm bringing up a tricky topic that I know a lot of people would steer clear of, not "mansplaining"

I think what you want is a certain kind of performative empathy that's not true empathy.

[Crunchy Frog]

124. Or you could, you know, just not say anything about

Last edited Wed May 8, 2024, 12:42 AM - Edit history (1)

what you think other people, whom you've never met and are never likely to meet, should be feeling about things that you don't understand and that don't impact you

[Silent3]

138. Why should one feel so afraid to discuss such things?

Other than, of course, the very predictable way many people will be determined to get bent out of shape by the imagined intentions and agendas they can't help themselves from layering on top of what you say, no matter the actual words used, and without the slightest inclination to seek a charitable rather than angering interpretation?

[Crunchy Frog]

148. Why don't you make a new post about how black men should stop exaggerating the risks

of being killed by cops? Surely the real risk is out of proportion to the perceived risk? You should explain that to them and urge them stop irrationally self-terrifying themselves.

I'm sure they'd really appreciate your concern and attempts at helpfulness.

[Silent3]

174. If a black man were choosing, say, being in a locked room with a hungry lion rather than an average cop...

...yes, I might actually dare to say that's a bit off in realistic risk assessment. Of course, I could also predict the kind of stupid feedback daring to say so might generate.

I think we know that the negative response isn't about the risk assessment itself, but an unspoken rule that only some people should talk about some things, and the actual facts or words used don't matter. It's just whose place it supposedly is and isn't to talk about some things.

[Crunchy Frog]

220. You never said anything in your previous posts about being locked in a room with a hungry bear or lion.

You're now employing the oldest technique of the dishonest debater by moving the goalposts across the field.

[Hekate]

302. Perfect idea. And you know what? ...

That’s an OP that would be righteously deleted by DU juries for being, if nothing else, divisive as hell.

Instead we have 300 damn posts in this thread about how women as an entire class are too emotionally disordered to understand reality. I have to give the bro credit, tho, for knowing how to reel in an enormous haul of earnest replies.

[Crunchy Frog]

305. I've always respected this poster in the past.

Sometimes all it takes is a single thread for them to rip off their masks and reveal their true selves.

I think that's what we're seeing here.

[NanaCat]

209. OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE

WE ARE NOT THE ONES AFRAID TO DISCUSS SOMETHING.

You are the bloody wanker for NOT LISTENING TO PEOPLE WHO KNOW BETTER THAN YOU about this topic.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

222. 3% can't do that

Needs to show off the new phrase he just learned. Performative Empathy My Ass!

[Dorian Gray]

197. Nobody was asking for any kind of empathy from you

you brought this up out of nowhere and took it upon yourself to argue with women and their real life experiences, telling them that statistically they aren't deserving of empathy. lol.

For whatever reason you feel the need to be argumentative here.... it's coming across as petty and dismissive and rude.

[NanaCat]

208. If all you can offer when women tell you how bloody-minded

you're being is 'performative empathy,' then I don't think you know what empathy is at all.

[wnylib]

114. See my post #111.

[NanaCat]

204. It's mansplaining

Because it's not simply the risk of sexual assault we must deal with, but also the fact that, if it does happen, we, not the rapists, receive the blame when we're raped. We always do. No matter what we do to protect ourselves, any deviation from doing the utmost not to be raped will have us blamed for it. So we have to brace ourselves for the worst, because if we don't, well, we were asking for it, right?

You obviously haven't faced that. Every rape victim has, including this one.

You need to listen to us for a change, rather than telling us whether or not we have a reason to brace ourselves for an assault. We do it because we can't win, no matter what we do. If we listen to clueless idiots who dismiss our concerns like you have, we get trashed when we're raped for not doing enough to prevent it, and if we do prepare and get raped, anyway, we get trashed for 'asking for it,' because we obviously did something to get raped.

Sit this one out, kemosabe. You're way out of your depth here.

[betsuni]

211. +1

[NanaCat]

206. Thanks for the mansplaining.

Really, it wouldn't be a day ending in 'y' without someone telling us how stupid we are that we need to be told how to deal with rape.

[viva la]

92. Thank you for your concern.

"On average, there are 463,634 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the United States." (not all are women)

EVERY YEAR. ALMOST HALF A MILLION.

And that doesn't include just threatening, obscene, or interfering behavior that makes women have to react to protect themselves, usually by leaving where they are or avoiding places they have every right to be.

I don't know how to put this politely, but... WE women are not the problem. We aren't the ones whose judgment and behavior and decisions should be questioned. When are men going to call other men out for creepy and abusive behavior, rather than calling women out for supposedly overreacting to said abusive behavior?

[Silent3]

96. Who said anything that has anything to do with this reply of yours?

You've clearly read a lot into what I wrote that isn't actually there, just stuff you assume "must" go along for the ride.

[viva la]

98. Oh, never mind.

You don't want actual response from actual women. I don't know what you want, but it's not worth our time to figure out what your purpose is.

[MontanaMama]

105. The fact that women who have no experience with actual bears

would choose an encounter with a bear over a strange man or an armed man says it ALL. At least if we are killed by a bear, someone will know what happened. Jesus Christ. This is a rhetorical question and men still can’t handle being told NO.

[Ocelot II]

264. Actual bears can usually be scared off. When hiking in Glacier Park a few years ago

we were advised to make noise on the trails by talking loudly or shaking a can full of pebbles or attaching bear bells to our packs. Since bears might attack if they're startled, you want to let them know you're around, and then they'll leave. If we could scare off creepy men by rattling rocks in a can (or wearing man bells) you can bet every woman on earth would be doing exactly that, and the streets at night would resound with the clatter of rocks in cans. Thanks, I'll take my chances with the bears.

[MontanaMama]

280. Absolutely.

I ran into a sow black bear and her two cubs last weekend hiking with my dog. She didn’t run easily but I backed off the trail with my dog in a leash to show I was not a threat she hustled her babies right by me.

The fact that this has so many men unraveled is incredible. There are many good men here on DU that get this whole concept and I appreciate that. The OP was offensive on so many levels.

[wnylib]

111. If you're not female, your real world risks are not the same as a woman's real world experiences

[Silent3]

116. Experiences obviously change feelings of fear

But just like a person who has been, say, attacked by a dog, is likely to be more afraid of dogs than someone who hasn't experienced that, dogs, in general don't actually become more dangerous.

[wnylib]

168. Wow. Talk about clueless. You mention one dog attack making

Last edited Wed May 8, 2024, 12:12 PM - Edit history (1)

a person fearful of dogs. Women experience threatening behavior, gestures, words, gropes, and stalking frequently throughout our lives any time, any place.

It's not always about sex, but that's the most common type of incident. Sometimes it's about being perceived by a man as smaller or weaker or vulnerable enough to mug for money. Sometimes it's just a misogynist looking to feel manly by trying to assert himself over a woman.

It can start as early as puberty. I can remember at age 11 walking down a residential street during the day in a neighborhood considered safe and being stalked by a strange man driving slowly beside me, offering a ride and getting angry when I ignored him. Threatened he'd "show you what it's all about, girly." I rushed to the store and called home. My mother sent my older brother to walk back with me. On the way home, he gave me tips on how to get away or defend myself in situations like that.

Age 14, guys in cars driving by yelling out, "Hey, wanna f***? "

Age 15 at a Greyhound bus station on my way home to PA after visiting relatives in SC. Airline strike then or I would have flown. Had a layover in VA for a couple hours before the next bus. Stalked by a man who would not take no for an answer when I refused his offer to drive me part of the way. Had to stay at the bus depot's food counter where the waitress helped me avoid him.

I've overheard "ordinary guys" at work complaining about a woman that they thought was too ambitious saying, "What she needs to straighten her out is a good f***."

Workplaces, elevators, parking garages, walking on city streets in daytime, etc. throughout my life. I am an ordinary female, not beautiful, not ugly. Just being female is enough. Of course not all men are like that. But there are plenty who are. Some of them are "respectable" people at home or in church on Sunday. No, it doesn't happen to the same woman every day. But it's frequent enough to be prudently cautious and prepared to act if necessary by carrying keys or mace, having situational awareness, having a phone handy to call 911, going into a public place when being followed, etc.

Terrified? No. Cautious, prepared, and aware of surroundings? You bet. Comes with the territory of being female.

Guys like that make me more angry than terrified.

I don't get gaslighted, either, by guys who deny our reality with their fantasy.

[Silent3]

169. Take this all back to the man/bear thing, and risk assessment

You're in a park, walking down a trail. You round a corner, and there, standing ten feet away from you is:

1) A random human male
2) A bear (let's make it a big grizzly bear, not a little black bear)

Are you really sure, on a per-encounter basis like that, a random human male is more dangerous than a bear?

[Dorian Gray]

198. Why

a grizzly? Most humans encounter Black Bears. They're more common and less threatening, and they encroach on suburban areas.

I wouldn't be afraid if I encountered a black bear. So.... MAYBE THAT'S PART OF WHY WOMEN ARE ANSWERING THE WAY THEY ARE!

[betsuni]

215. I wonder about the obsession with bears. Mythology about women marrying bears?

[Dorian Gray]

219. I think he's having an emotional response to an online meme

which is really ridiculous.

[betsuni]

232. Could also be a bear-envy thing.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

291. I heard they're really hung

and since some men obsess about their substandard genitalia, their insecurity and envy acting out against women, rather than the superior bears, is clear.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

308. There was a bestseller in the 70s about a woman moving out to the woods and having an affair with a bear

But somehow I don't think that's what has crossed 'splainer's minds...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_(novel)

[NanaCat]

210. Will you shut up?

You are so disgustingly obtuse, it's triggering me. And I don't trigger easily.

[betsuni]

212. "THE MAN/BEAR THING."

[robbob]

253. Why wouldn't you possible be frightened in either scenario?

What’s with this “bears vs. Men” obsession? There could be dangers with either? You’re starting to look silly.

[TSExile]

244. Thank you, wnylib!!

In my case, it was the "respectable" man I saw every Sunday at church for nearly a decade. He was the man I literally stood next to during Holy Communion, the man who played guitar like a boss in the church band, the man who I thought was my friend. I was in love with him. After the assault, I kept it a secret and actually went back to him time and again because I thought I had asked for it. I deserved whatever I got, and he's the one who dumped ME eight months later!! Never in my life have I felt so alone and lost.

This man killed any dream or desire I ever had to get married. He demolished any sense of security I ever had. Even now, when I do laps around the track at the Y and a guy happens to be close on my heels, I get nervous. I know it's probably not intentional, but guess what? I can't tell if he's a threat or not.

Thus is the life of female humans on this planet. Men, be thankful you were born men.

[wnylib]

318. I'm so sorry for your experience and the effect that it has had on you.

But, regarding your last sentence, I hope that you can have pride in being who you are, without regrets. It's your choice, not something that anyone has a right to take from you with their twisted behavior.

[Diamond_Dog]

314. wnylib, you speak for so many of us.

I can’t add a single word to your perfect post. Yes it does start early for many of us.

[wnylib]

317. I speak from my own experience, but I know

that it is the experience of many.

[bcbink]

233. What are you doing?

You have been given answers. You have labeled them incorrect. One might say it looks like you are enjoying this. Not a good look.

[MontanaMama]

281. The number of sexual assaults

and attacks on women are increasing not decreasing. This doesn’t even take into account that only about a fifth of those non fatal attacks are reported and only a fraction of those lead to an arrest or conviction. So, those guys just get another opportunity to offend again.

[Happyone]

329. It's called Woman's Intuition.

[Dorian Gray]

193. At 12 years old

I was followed into an empty restroom by a teenage boy. He threatened to sexually assault me. I kicked him and ran. I've been rubbed up against on the subway. I've been in movie theaters where a lone man was jerking off behind me and friends. So, yeah..... I'm always aware of my surroundings when I'm walking alone at night or in an isolated space. I walk with my keys between my knuckles. I have pepper spray.

This is not fear informing me. It's past experience.

I have never been assaulted in NYC at night, but I also purposely never take the subway home alone after 10 pm. When alone in a taxi at night, I call my husband and take pictures of the medallion number. When walking alone in the Prospect Park (especially the trails, which I love), I never put headphones on to block my hearing.

I don't know one female who hasn't been subjected to something similar.

[betsuni]

205. But ... but ... but ... STATISTICS AND BEARS! We're not only getting worked up about nothing, we're stupid too!

Somebody make it stop

[Crunchy Frog]

306. I never experienced an assault myself at that age, but

I can recall more than one occasion, in that age range, of listening to a similarly aged girl describe her own experience with being raped by a stranger.

It's simply not as rare as the OP wants to think it is.

[3catwoman3]

4. Men are afraid women will laugh at them.

Women are afraid men will kill them.

Margaret Atwood.

[Silent3]

13. I'm trying to compare real risk vs. what people fear, whatever the odds might be.

More men are killed by men than women are killed by men.

[wryter2000]

37. Real risk

Every single woman has been in the situation where a man (or boy) tries to pressure her into having sex she doesn't want. Not all of the situations are violent, but I guaran-damn-tee you that every woman has had at least one experience where she's been coerced into doing something she doesn't want.

It starts with the boys at school. It continues with the father of the household who drives her home from babysitting. It continues with the creep who traps women in the copy room. And just maybe one of those creeps is willing to kill her.

It happens to every single woman. All of us. Each of us. So, if you want to talk about the statistical probability that a woman will find herself in a situation where she'll need to escape an unwanted sexual contact...that probability is 100%.

[Silent3]

44. I'm specifically refering to "stranger danger"

When you say "Every single woman has been in the situation where a man (or boy) tries to pressure her into having sex she doesn't want", that doesn't say anything about the real risk of stranger assault, only what can contribute to a feeling of risk.

[wryter2000]

59. Then, there's your problem

Stranger danger isn't nearly as common as an attack by someone the woman thought she knew. You couldn't count what happened to Stormy Daniels a stranger assault. But it was a rape, nevertheless. Women often have to protect themselves from people who are their boss or a "friend." Those kinds of assaults are worse because the woman is more likely to blame herself.

[Silent3]

71. That's not my problem. That's my POINT.

"Stranger danger isn't nearly as common as an attack by someone the woman thought she knew."

As I stated in my OP.

[viva la]

129. LADIES! How many have been groped, assaulted, fondled, chased, by a stranger?

1. Me. Multiple times.

And it's not really a good argument, btw, that most rapes are committed by friends, partners, relatives, and acquaintances. That so many men rape their friends and loved ones doesn't make women feel safer.

[Silent3]

136. How many bears have you run into in real life?

Are you really, really sure that on a per-encounter basis, running into a grizzly bear is safer than running into a man?

[viva la]

143. As a matter of fact, I have encountered a couple grizzlies--

hiking in Denali.

I was wary, did what the rangers told us to do, steered clear.
The bears kept their distance, and so did I.

I encountered a couple black bears in the Great Smokies. Again, I steered clear, and the bears steered clear of me.

Would that all men I have encountered "in the wild" were so respectful and thoughtful!

[Silent3]

145. Standing, what, ten feet way from you?

The bear/grizzly discussion going around isn't about noticing a bear, or a man, a mile away.

[viva la]

149. I'm not sure what you are getting at?

Do I need to get closer to the bears for you to respect my experience?

[Silent3]

153. For the actually risk assessment...

...you really do need to think of what someone means when they imagine "running into a man" in a park, and then put the bear in exactly the same place.

Only then are you fairly comparing risks. Now, if someone has stats to prove differently, I'm all ears, but I'm imagining, say, rounding the bend on a trail, and BOOM! Out of the blue, there's a bear standing there, just a few feet away.

I'm pretty damned sure (unless, say, it's just a little black bear), that's way more dangerous than running into a random human male.

[viva la]

158. Okay, for the lulz, let me point out that we don't usually let bears on the subway.

(Point is... many women have been fondled/groped/dry-humped by men on the subway or bus. That's where many of us encounter that kind of random stranger assault.)

Also, not sure how this is relevant, but I think grizzly bears can cover 20 yards a lot faster than even the most motivated rapist.

So while I would want to keep at least 20 yards away from a grizzly, sometimes I have no choice but to be within an inch of a man predator.

[Silent3]

161. The internet man/bear discussion is all about

Swapping a man for a bear in a hypothetical encounter, and choosing which is riskier. That's the thought experiment.

If you swap the man for a bear... and then swap the woods for a subway, and put the bear a mile away but the man less than ten feet away, and swap sitting next to someone with a surprise encounter, etc. etc... then you aren't doing the correct thought experiment.

[NanaCat]

223. I spent every day of ages 10-mid-50s

Facing some form of unwanted sexual attention from males whenever I left my house. Leers, catcalls, getting aggressive hit-ons, groping, following me to my car, cornered by co-workers or bosses for sex, threats to give up the booty or else, stalking--

It was all so exhausting.

Since then, the amount of intimidation has decreased, and now is zero because COVID gave me the excuse to stick closer to home as much as I wanted. Or maybe I use that as an excuse to stay away from people because I simply can't be arsed to deal with anyone F2F but the husband anymore. I'm hoping this means I'm in my crone years. I've been looking forward to them for this reason.

[betsuni]

226. +1

[Scrivener7]

65. 20% of sexual assaults are at the hands of a stranger.

[Texasgal]

321. While a young lady in college

I worked at Macy's at the galleria in Dallas, Tx. It was Christmas time. I was leaving my shift walking to my car in the garage, and some sleezeball tapped me on the shoulder and asked me what time it was. As I turned around he ejaculated on my coat! It happened very quickly with hardly any time for me to react as he ran off through the garage.

I walked back to the doors at Macy's and called security. They took a report, some co-workers helped me clean my coat off and escorted me to my car.

Is that enough of a sexual assault for you?

Yes... this incident required me to become more vigilant and more aware of my surroundings at all times. Over the years there have many more instances where I've had to take measures to secure my safety.

How DARE you question what Women have to go through just to remain SAFE!

Sorry, but your OP SUCKS!

[viva la]

100. And "being killed" is not the only risk.

Rape, assault, kidnapping, abuse... all more common male-to-female.

[Hekate]

47. Women are routinely harassed, raped, and/or killed. What do you want? Prurient details? Hm?

Nothing we say is convincing you, and you show no signs of being willing to be educated.

I suggest you do some research with national health organizations and national criminal justice organizations. God forbid you check out a specifically women’s organization — don’t even go there, if your attitude is we are all just a buncha sissies.

I also suggest my sisters here stop trying to convince you. You are not owed the painful details of our lives.

[Silent3]

166. You're off on your own agenda...

...and not what my OP is about. But I can tell trying to make the distinction is a waste of time here. You're way too sure "you've got me pegged", and once that point of view takes over, there's no going back.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

293. That's what I'm suspecting.

Look at all the women responding to him and sharing intimate details.

This is bullshit.

[Hekate]

296. Further down I do ask...

…if he uses a purse seine or a drift net

Because he sure is getting a haul

[spooky3]

48. How about statistics on domestic abuse, rape or other sexual

Assaults that do not end in the death of the victim?

[Silent3]

51. Those are thing things I contrasted to "stranger danger" as more truly risky

So "statistics on domestic abuse, rape or other sexual" are right there in the OP I started with.

[spooky3]

58. When are you going to "get it" that this question is not literally

About bears in the woods, or only about strangers, but rather about the degree to which women reasonably feel unsafe?

We’ve tried nicely to explain, in various ways, what is wrong with your arguments and you are not listening. Good evening

[Silent3]

106. My OP clearly makes in plain I'm talking about the "degree to which women reasonably feel unsafe"

That's the topic I'm bringing up. The only difference is I'm talking about proportional fear, like the way people are disproportionately afraid of flying compared to driving, even though flying is safer than driving.

[Scrivener7]

131. What makes you think you know anything about the degree to which women feel unsafe?

Clearly, understanding women is not your strong suit.

[Silent3]

134. And overcoming a confrontational, hostile approach to this discussion...

...is not your strong suit. Yes, I've never, ever heard any women talk about the things that make them feel unsafe and afraid

[Scrivener7]

137. So you've heard women talk about feeling unsafe and you figured you'd school all of us about

your opinion of "the degree to which women feel unsafe?"

Seriously?

That's REALLY fucked up.

PS: You forgot to put "shrill" into your description of me. I know you guys love that word.

[Silent3]

139. My OP isn't "schooling" anyone about anything

Again, you do a poor job of reading between the lines.

But yes, I know in your own mind, you've "got me pegged". No matter how I might disagree with your interpretations, I can't pull the wool over your eyes, nosiree! You know the real score.

[Scrivener7]

142. Yep. You're right. I do have you pegged.

[Silent3]

156. So, what's the point of discussing anything with someone who takes that attitude?

It's just the "hero in your own mind" syndrome. Make sure to give yourself a good pat on the back.

[Scrivener7]

157. I'm guessing you don't see the irony in your post.

[Silent3]

159. Likewise, I'm sure. n/t

[MontanaMama]

108. We are not talking about men being killed by men.

We are talking about women being killed by men which happens enough that women would rather encounter a bear than a man. The statistics of women being killed by bears favors that interaction by miles compared to women being killed by men. Men that they know, men that they don’t know…it doesn’t matter. Women are killed by men far more often than I am comfortable with.

[North Shore Chicago]

196. Common denominator in your post?

MEN

[Cuthbert Allgood]

265. You might want to just stop with this thread and just fucking listen.

Here and on social media, women are trying to tell men important things about their encounters with men and your lame ass attempt to mansplain risk assessment is such a bad look and kind of represents the problem.

Or continue what you are doing and know that you are being put in a not good spot in people's minds.

[Silent3]

267. I'll listen to responses which address what I actually said...

…but not responses to what a lot of people imagine I said.

It is immaterial if I’m in a “good spot in people’s minds”.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

270. OK, here's another clue for you.

1. people tell you what you said is gross.
2. you try to explain what you are "really" saying.
3. even more people tell you your position is gross.
4. you tell them they "just don't understand" what you are trying to say.
5. even MORE people tell you it's gross
6. you let them know they are just over reacting to things

Maybe, just maybe, and follow along with me here, you are the FUCKING PROBLEM. Maybe your position is gross. It has been explained to you MANY times on this thread and you are doing ZERO work to figure it out.

Really. Seriously. Just shut up and listen. Think about why so many people who you obviously agree with on a myriad of political issues since you're here think you are dead wrong on this.

[Silent3]

273. Nope

This is a case of an over-active immune system on DU. Some posts strike some people as coming from a viewpoint they don’t like, even if it’s not really that, and all of a sudden there’s a pile-on.

Once the assault starts, the wrong interpretation is locked in, and can’t be argued against, because the counter—arguments get received through the same distortion filter.

It’s kind of like:

A: Stop being defensive!
B: I’m not being defensive!
A: See!

[Dorian Gray]

275. I knew some people enjoyed the taste of sand

but I never quite saw someone who insisted on sticking their head in so deep.

[Dorian Gray]

274. You said that women are walking around with unnecessary fear

women are telling you point blank why they are cautious when walking alone. You're dismissing it as a statistical aberration when WE ARE TELLING YOU OUR REAL LIVED EXPERIENCE.

I have encountered bears. Quite a few of them. They've all run off. None have attacked me. I've been physically assaulted or attempted assaulted multiple times by men.

The bears were black bears, by the way, and I'd rather run into one of them on a path in the woods than into you. 1 million times yes. (But that's more bc you insist upon yourself when a bear will just run away.).

[MontanaMama]

283. While the majority of homicide victims are men killed by strangers,

women and girls are more likely to be murdered because they are female.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

292. SO. WHAT.

[TSExile]

5. Years ago, when I worked nights...

...my mom insisted that I buy a can of pepper spray so I could carry it with me across the darkened parking lot to my car. She didn't have to tell me why.

Whether or not a man would actually harm a woman is irrelevant. He most likely has a height and strength advantage, and he definitely has a weapon attached to himself that can harm her. We don't know which men are the ones who will hurt us. Some are able to hide the fact that they are predators VERY well. 💔

[Silent3]

15. There's certainly nothing wrong with being prepared

I'm talking about the self-torment of walking around with out-sized fears.

[Scrivener7]

19. What level of fear is acceptable to you? And where are you seeing

this "self-torment" that is bothersome to you?

[Silent3]

26. It has nothing to do with what's acceptible to me

It's what women are doing to themselves by being so afraid. If they're fine with feeling that afraid and don't want anyone to talk them down, I guess that's their business.

[Scrivener7]

35. So this is you "talking us down?" Seriously dude, I think you don't understand just

how obnoxious you are being.

https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf

Educate yourself. One in 5 women will be raped in her lifetime. About 45% of women will experience some kind of sexual violence other than rape. 20% of those incidents occur at a stranger's hand.

Women who take precautions against being one of those statistics don't need you to "talk them down."

[Silent3]

107. There's not a single thing I said against talking precautions

If you can quote where I've spoken against precautions, please do.

[Scrivener7]

115. The things on which you have based this whole discussion on, the man vs. bear discussion and the

description of tactics women use to avoid danger, are simply about precautions.

They're about avoiding danger or about choosing the lesser danger.

You are the one who made the irrational assumption that women's use of precautions amount to a "self-torment" that requires you to "talk us down" and perform other mansplaining tasks.

Keep that in mind about the many other things you might assume, without good reason.

Oops. Forget that last sentence. It's way too late for that.

[Silent3]

118. "You are the one who made the irrational assumption that women's use of precautions amount to a 'self-torment'"

Nope. That's your incorrect reading of what I wrote.

[Scrivener7]

122. Nope. It's not. It's you making the irrational assumption that the precautions women take

or the tactics we use to avoid danger are "self-torment" from which we need to be "talked down."

By you!

[Silent3]

127. Nope, you're adding a layer of meaning that isn't there.

I know I used words very close to the ones you quoted, but the broader context was about feelings of fear, not precautions.

[Scrivener7]

130. Nope. I'm not. The man vs. bear discussion is about choosing a lesser danger. The

other quote you used was about precautions.

You decided those two things meant women were walking around in a state of "self torment" and need to be "talked down." Your words

YOU added that layer of meaning.

Keep that in mind about the many other things you might assume, without good reason.

[TSExile]

25. Outsized fears?

I have been sexually assaulted. No, the man wasn't a stranger. He was a supposed friend. Still...

I will never feel safe again.

[Silent3]

30. But isn't that like suffering PTSD?

It's a maladaption to a bad experience. It's something better treated, if possible. You aren't actually more likely to be assaulted by a man in the woods than you would have been without the trauma you've felt.

[Sparkly]

45. But MANY of us have experienced that and/or other violence from men.

And most of us know many other friends and relatives who have.

Call it PTSD or sane caution. It is real, and it is a normal response to stay alert and cautious.

[spooky3]

53. No, it's not. She reasonably is concerned that

People who in the past seemed trustworthy weren’t, so she isn’t sure whom to trust now.

Stop trying to use non-analogous situations to defend your indefensible position.

[Silent3]

63. What about my position is "indefensible"?

You think it just simply doesn't happen that people's fears are often not proportionate to real risks?

Or is it just something that doesn't bear mentioning, regardless of what is true or not?

[Scrivener7]

55. Do you understand that this is a cruel and disgusting comment to make to a victim

of sexual assault?

[MontanaMama]

112. They do not understand

and they are not aware of the statistics regarding women murdered in the US each year. It is shocking to me.

[Scrivener7]

117. What bothers me most is that I think he DOES fully understand.

[MontanaMama]

135. Indeed.

A quick google search of what’s real is easy to do….and yet.

[Dorian Gray]

200. You're exaggerating the fear

that women walk around with for your own pedantic argument.

[Scrivener7]

6. Back during the gender wars on DU, some women said they assume

any men they encounter on a dark street could pose a danger to them, and they act accordingly.

Many men on DU became enraged and insulted by that. The arguments went on for months.

When COVID hit, many of those VERY SAME men were adamant about how they were keeping themselves safe. "There's no way to know if the people you encounter can infect you with COVID," they said. "There's no way to know which of them could kill you, so I'm staying far away from other people."

And yet they were enraged by women taking precautions against the danger posed by unfamiliar men.

You may not want to "seem callous about the fear many women experience." But you certainly do.

PS - the other part of the "man vs bear" tik tok conversation was this: Men were asked whether they'd rather their wife or daughter was alone in the woods with a bear or a man. The MEN picked the bear.

[haele]

64. Heck, Laz said he'd prefer to meet a bear than a lone man in the woods.

Of course, where he grew up, the bear was an Eastern Black Bear, and there were often illegal grows, drug/gun running, or stills in the woods, so there were more than a few lone men who might be willing to kill one to maintain secrecy.

Haele

[NanaCat]

225. I'd rather face the bear

I'd say the percentage for the bear leaving me the F alone are at 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999998% compared to the 80% chance of a man doing that.

[Scrivener7]

254. Previous to this thread, I was one of the few who said the man, but now I want to make a caveat: not the OP.

Not because of any danger. Rather because of a fear of being terminally annoyed.

[Dorian Gray]

276. hah!

same!

[RockRaven]

7. What percent of women have been assaulted by a man at some point in their life?

Men are, in fact, "that dangerous."

[Scrivener7]

8. Yes, but we're not allowed to "get all worked up about it."

[Silent3]

14. The question is assault out of the blue in the kind of situation the bear/man thing is about. n/t

[NanaCat]

227. And how many women have been assaulted by a bear

Not very damned many of us.

I'll take my chances with the bear, any bloody day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

[CrispyQ]

9. When asked, a good number of men choose the bear, too. -nt

[TSExile]

11. Besides...

...if you keep your distance from the bear and don't do anything to provoke it, the bear will generally leave you alone. Some men are an entirely different story...

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

12. I have never actually done any of those things.

And despite my screen name, I am a woman.

I used to ride the public bus home from DCA (Washington National Airport where I was a ticket agent) often late at night. I did pay plenty of attention to whether or not anyone else got off the bus when I did. But I simply walked briskly, clearly knew where I was headed, and NEVER had anyone bother me in any way.

You are absolutely correct in saying fear should be scaled down to actual real-world risks.

I recall reading several decades (yes, decades ago that people who watched lots of TV, whether news of all of the many shows available to watch, tended to think the world was a more dangerous place than it actually is. Me, I don't watch a lot of conventional TV.

[Silent3]

17. Thank you for being one of the few women who doesn't see my post itself as an attack

To me this is just like the way many people are far more afraid to fly in an airplane than drive in a car, when the car is the much more dangerous mode of transportation.

[Crunchy Frog]

16. I haven't seen anyone demonizing men, but the risks are absolutely real.

A woman is vastly more likely to be sexually assaulted by a man while alone in the woods than she is to ever even encounter a bear.

I used to carry a heavy duty pepper spray/tear gas canister with me when I'd go out hiking on my own, and it wasn't for in case I encountered a bear or a mountain lion.

[Silent3]

21. I don't think either of us has real stats here... no sure where I'd even look for them

Is your "vastly more" like comparing a 1 in 50,000 chance vs. a 1 in a million? Twenty times bigger, but still not that frequent at all?

No matter how much many women have real-life experience with men being creepy, and may have even experienced sexual assault in different kinds of situations, the way those sad facts make a situation feel more scary, and how risky it actually is, are different things.

[Crunchy Frog]

27. I honestly just don't care what your opinion is on this subject.

[Scrivener7]

61. Oh, but he's "talking us down" from our irrational "self-torment" doncha know?

Can you believe this shit?

[Sky Jewels]

181. Oh, you know how we wimmenfolk get...

all hysterical and irrational and all worked up about nothing! Nothing at all! We silly vagina-havers start believing our own lived experiences instead of heeding the words of wisdom from a MAN on the internet! He’s so CALM and RATIONAL and NON-HYSTERICAL! How dare we gals choose protective behaviors based on multiple scary-to-terrifying-to lifelong-traumatizing encounters with men that usually start at age 10 or 11?! The MAN is here to save us from getting all worked up! What a guy!

[Diamond_Dog]

18. Men just don't know the fear because they feel reasonably safe everywhere they go.

It never even crosses their radar.

It is insulting to insinuate women have irrational fears of being attacked or are getting themselves worked up over nothing. Every woman knows this fear.

Sexual assault from a stranger may be less common than sexual assault from an acquaintance, but aren’t many crimes committed due to the opportunity presenting itself? “Oh, there’s a woman all by herself, and there’s no one around!” You never know which men are normal and which ones are sick fucks.

[viva la]

103. And let's just realize that someone who thinks this way on a jury-- or a judge at the trial

"There's that college swimmer boy... hmm. How big a threat is he, actually, you know? Maybe she's just overreacting."

[betsuni]

155. All it takes is that one time being there in that place, that time when the opportunity presents itself to a predator.

This business about statistics and being irrational are:

[MOMFUDSKI]

20. To help you understand-

Imagine a man a foot taller than you are with double the strength grabbing you. Who wins?

[Silent3]

22. But I also have to imagine how likely it is that a foot-taller man is going to grab me

That a man is inherently more physically dangerous is not, in and of itself, a reason to be fearful of that man.

[Sparkly]

50. You do not understand the social construct of gender

at all.

[Sparkly]

24. I'm a little confused.

Are you literally comparing the danger of bears in the woods with men -- strangers or known -- in urban areas?

I assume this was some kind of metaphor to make a point, but I don't know what the point would be. Lone men, or groups of men, aren't all that dangerous to lone women? That's a dangerous message. Yes, they are.

That doesn't mean women need to stop going outdoors, but it DOES mean a lot of awareness, caution, some self-protective measures, and never letting her guard down.

[Silent3]

38. The question going around the internet is about meeting a bear vs. meeting a man while alone in the woods

I don't actually know which is statistically more dangerous, but I do know that sexual assault by strangers is a much rarer thing than the way many people react to the thought of it.

[Sparkly]

52. You do know that?

"I do know that sexual assault by strangers is a much rarer thing than the way many people react to the thought of it."

HOW do you know that??

[Silent3]

56. It's in the stats

I just found something that self-reported sexual assault is by people known to the victim is about 10% of the time.

Reported to police, about 5% of the time.

Besides, I thought this was commonly known. I guess not.

[Sparkly]

69. Please explain?

In self-reported sexual attack (which doesn't include all attack), the attacker is known to the victim 10% of the time? So the other 90% are strangers?

And, if these are reported to the police 5% of the time, where are the statistics on the other 95%?

[Silent3]

73. Someone else said 20% for self-reported

The larger portion any event is always family, clergy, friends (obviously not very good friends), and date rape.

[Sparkly]

75. Perhaps you could share a link to these stats?

[Silent3]

78. Here's on thing I just re-found

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence

But it's just as easy for you to google some of the stuff I've read early.

The above lumps a lot into "acquaintance", and doesn't seem to capture a lot of the sexual assault that happens to children by relatives.

[Sparkly]

83. This says 93% of JUVENILE victims knew the perps.

What does this have to do with women, bears, and men, again?!!

[Silent3]

87. I'm not sure where you're coming from

Are you honestly looking for more stats, just to have better numbers? Or are you coming from a "you don't know what the hell you're talking about" point of view, and trying to show I can't back this idea up?

Every time I answer a post, I have another post to respond to, so I'm a bit busy for googling more stats right now. (Obviously kicked a hornets' nest.) If you're pursuing this line of questioning to be confrontational, not in an honest search for more data, I'll just leave you be anyway. You can find the info yourself as see I'm not pulling this out of my ass.

[Sparkly]

95. Oh Kay.

[NanaCat]

228. Don't bother with the sexist mansplainer

It refuses to learn anything worthwhile.

[mainer]

29. Women have been murdered in parks

There’s an excellent true crime book called TRAILED by Kathryn Miles about the murders of women in Shenandoah Park by a serial killer. She cites statistics that women hiking alone in national parks are indeed at risk of being crime victims. (Something not generally known because of the way park crimes are reported.) Meeting a bear might well be a safer bet.

[Silent3]

34. Men have been murdered in parks too, but don't live in great fear of it

I'm talking about level of fear experienced vs. actually risk of the thing which is feared. Simply stating the obvious that a bad thing has happened doesn't address that.

[Sparkly]

57. Is there a certain level of assault by strangers in one's home, on a campus, and/or in a public place

that you think justifies caution, or even "great fear?"

[NanaCat]

229. Of course there isn't

We're too stupid to know what to fear, after all, so he's going to tell us what to fear and how to deal with rape,. He knows ever-so-much more about what's best for us than we stupid, silly women.

[JanMichael]

31. This quote lets me know that you need help

"I'm sure it happens, but is it really such a large risk to get all worked up about, and worth demonizing men as if they are hugely more scary than wild bears?"

Tone deaf.

[Silent3]

33. Oh, I knew I'd come across as tone-deaf to many

Let's take an example that doesn't hit so many hot-buttons: Flying vs. driving

We all know, statistically speaking, flying is much safer than driving. But far more people fear flying.

If it's not tone-deaf to point out that real-world truth where planes and cars are involved, why is it tone deaf to point out that some people probably experience stranger-danger fear of sexual assault in outsized proportion to the real-world risk?

[Scrivener7]

41. Did you take precautions during COVID? If so, why did you do that?

Everyone you encountered didn't have COVID, just as every man a woman encounters when she is alone isn't likely to hurt her.

Probably only a small percentage of the people you encountered could have spread the disease to you. Just as only a small percentage of men would harm a woman if they find her alone.

So by your logic, if you took precautions against getting too close to others before we had the COVID vaccine, you were just being irrational and someone needs to talk you down from your "self torment."

[JanMichael]

60. Congratulations then. The real world "truth" is that men attack women.

https://popcenter.asu.edu/content/sexual-assault-women-strangers-0#endref35

And each other but rarely rape. So comparing the risk of a bear or alien assault is ludicrous. I am sensing a mra thing.

This is my last reply on this extremely odd and offensive thread.

[wryter2000]

68. I came here for an argument

" target="_blank">

[viva la]

251. A man who sneers at women's reaction

But is silent towards the men causing the reaction... well, that does "explain" a lot.

[GenThePerservering]

36. It's a woman thing

you'd never understand.

[thucythucy]

40. The statistics I've seen say that one in five women will be raped at some point in their lives.

One in five.

That only a subset of this hideous statistic is "stranger rape" doesn't mean it's "rare." Under reported, yes. Intensely traumatic, also yes. Rare? Not in the world I live in.

Then again, statistically, "very few" people die in car accidents. Even fewer are victims of drunk drivers. Certainly not one in five or even anywhere close.

So, should people who wear seat belts "scale down their fear?" And what's all this fuss about drunk drivers? Maybe we should all take a deep breath and scale down the social concern?

Not sure why you've decided to mansplain on this particular issue, but you might want to do some self-reflection on how it is this topic has come to mean so much to you.

[Scrivener7]

43. And 45% will experience sexual assault of some kind other than rape.

But, hey, the poster is doing some civic duty by "talking us down."

[MOMFUDSKI]

54. Another stat that I read said 20 percent of

girls are victims of incest. I thought back to my 500 high school female classmates and shuddered.

[Daylily]

46. Not strangers

The men that were intent on molesting me weren’t strangers. They were men I knew. Only one would have been classified as a friend. Luckily for me, I was able to fend them off. But it made me wary to say the least.

[GenThePerservering]

67. Next stop for this train is

"Oh, lighten up!"

Then we'll be asked to "smile more".

[Silent3]

76. There's no "lighten up" message here

Except for the fact that this touches about issues that people take far more personally than other risks, it's the same thing as pointing out that fear of flying vs. driving is out-sized to the real risks of each. The more dangerous thing is the less feared thing.

[GenThePerservering]

77. I would suggest you go no further

with something you seem to know nothing about. Just accept that women are carrying millenia of aggression and we do not need men to explain ourselves to us.

[Silent3]

81. This is where DU group-think gets to me

For the most part, I really like DU and most of the people on it. But there are some things you just can't touch with a ten-foot pole with some people, which need more frank discussion without people being afraid of being classified as some sort of enemy for bringing a topic up, and being associated with a lot of baggage that they aren't actually bringing into a conversation.

[Scrivener7]

82. Again, I will ask you: Did you take precautions against Covid before we

had a vaccine? Did you keep a 6 foot distance between yourself and other people?

[Silent3]

89. Wow, you're impatient about that question.

Already now answered in another post.

[Sparkly]

88. In case you are sincere...

Please consider how many cases of sexual assault and other violence against women have gone unreported over many years. The stigmas stick to the victims, even of home invasions by strangers.

I do understand what you mean about fears vs. facts, because I believe in the "Free to Learn" and "Free-Range Parenting" ideas, although it takes more people doing it to make it work well! (This is about real statistics of crime against children in suburbs and allowing children to play outdoors with peers on their own.)

(However, violence against women is not at all the same.)

[Silent3]

91. Yes, "free range parenting" is exactly the kind of analogy that fits the kind of point I'm trying to make n/t

[Brenda]

224. Hey, Mr. MRA.

You know damned well that you are attacking 50% of DU and the world population by calling the responses here "group-think" which implies we are a mindless mob or brainwashed (by those icky feminists).

Equating facts of women's history to "baggage" is outright sexism and trolling.

[viva la]

133. He's actually thinking we're all... hysterical, I guess?

and that for some reason we are willfully rejecting his 'sensible advice", which weirdly seems to be something about not being so afraid of strange men because we're far more likely to be raped by our friends and acquaintances.

[Silent3]

144. I like pancakes

Leaves of many trees are green. Roughly 75% of the elemental matter in the universe is hydrogen. I've never won and Oscar or an Emmy.

I just figure it doesn't matter what words I type. I'll just see what else you can invent from these words.

[viva la]

146. You obviously get a kick out of trolling women.

I wonder why. What makes you so dismissive of women's experience, knowledge, and feelings?

Also... has it ever occurred to you to ask men why so many of them deliberately do things that hurt or threaten women? Or do you think that's kind of normal, compared to women being nervous when around those men?

[Silent3]

150. No, I do get a kick out of trolling people who...

...are bound and determined to misinterpret my words. I don't associate that behavior with women in general at all.

[viva la]

152. Enough. You haven't listened to any of us. You don't care.

You dismiss everything we say. You think nothing we say has any merit.

[Silent3]

154. No, I dismiss most of what YOU say

People who don't take the tone of a prosecuting attorney get much better responses from me.

[viva la]

162. You know, it's almost hilarious how absolutely .... on point you are.

I mean, if I would create a male character who would lecture women about their overreaction to the level of risk of rape, and then talk about the TONE of the objections to his lecture, I think my editor would tsk tsk and say, "A little ON THE NOSE, don't you think? This is just a bit too stereotyped!"

You are actually feeling prosecuted by me, aren't you? LOL.

[Silent3]

164. No, I'm just mildly annoyed by a predictable type of response

Your approach being prosecutorial, and me feeling prosecuted, are two separate things.

But an inability to understand distinctions like that is why you have no idea what I'm really talking about.

[viva la]

171. You are so

... predictable.
Night night.

[Scrivener7]

213. LOL! The level of your projection is hilarious. Again, I'm going to guess you don't see the irony in this.

[viva la]

249. Deleted

[Scrivener7]

250. Viva, check that post again. It's me replying to the mansplainer, not to you.

His projections of his actions onto you are just priceless, don't you think?

[viva la]

252. Oh, okay.

Will delete.

[Scrivener7]

151. Poor dear.

[bcbink]

236. we are maladaptive.

I think I will keep that. Maybe a nice sticker
Beware! She's maladaptived

[Scrivener7]

80. I don't know. We might be past that. We've already been told that he is just

"talking us down" from our irrational behaviors and he's saving us from "self-torment."

This is some classic MRA shit right here.

[mainer]

70. Women are prey animals

And we behave accordingly.
My husband often remarks how situationally aware I am. How I’ll notice the behavior of those around us while he doesn’t. He chalks it up to whether one feels like predator or prey.

[1WorldHope]

72. Interesting discussion.

I agree that we are all encouraged by TV and movies to fear everything. But, if you've never been in that position, then i think it is pretty hard to relate. Believe me, if you were ever raped, even once, you would do anything to avoid that happening again. Even if it was just your uncle or your best friend's boy friend who raped you. (Sarcasm intended) The thought of a stranger raping then killing you in some sick fucking way, is something beyond imagination.
But I'm glad we are having the conversation. There are a great many things that women and men need to sit down and talk about.

[Scrivener7]

74. I see you are assiduously avoiding my question about whether you took

precautions to stay away from people before we had the COVID vaccine.

[Silent3]

85. Not assiduously avoiding, just took that as a rhetorical question, plus having a lot of posts to respond to

I did take precautions for COVID, yes. But I also wasn't terribly afraid either. I was also talking precautions more as a civic duty than out of fear for my own health -- I didn't want to be the person who caught COVID and passed it on to someone else who might not handle it as well.

The risk of getting COVID was also way, way higher than stranger sexual assault, so I don't know if your question about COVID effectively helps clarify anything here.

Oh, and a point about making assumptions: You simply claimed, not even tentatively proposed, that I was "assiduously avoiding (your) question". You were wrong. Keep that in mind about the many other things you might assume, without good reason, about what I have said or will say. You aren't as good at reading between the lines as you imagine.

[Scrivener7]

90. So you did take precautions against encountering people who could do damage to you.

Even though the percentages of people carrying the disease were quite small when considered against the whole of the population.

So, according to your own logic, you were really just being an irrational boob. No better than the silly women you are castigating here for our "self-torment."

It's fine when you do it, but when the silly women do it, they need to be "talked down."

Oh, and a point about your mansplaining: the glee you are taking in doing it is really a lot more obvious to everyone reading this thread than you imagine.

[Silent3]

93. See this post, "There's certainly nothing wrong with being prepared"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100218930725#post15

As for the rest, you've clearly layered your own straw man parody of what I've said on top of my actually words. Please, have more fun knocking it down some more.

[Scrivener7]

104. Oh, gracious! We're allowed to be prepared! That's so good of you!

And no, dear, it isn't a straw man.

It is you admitting that you use the same approach to dangers that might befall you as women use in the behavior you are belittling.

[BigMin28]

79. In 2020 in Texas

There were over 13,500 cases of forcible rape reported. So about 36 women and girls each day. That is only what is reported. As we know, sexual assault is a vastly under reported crime. Women are wise to keep our guard up. It is sometimes exhausting, but safety demands it.

[viva la]

84. "but jeez! Men aren't that dangerous!" Oh, really?

There are a lot of dangerous men, and of those, most are repeat offenders who rape over and over.
And you literally never know if the man near you is one of them.

I remember a girl in my neighborhood got raped in a park, stumbled out, called to another man that she needed help... and then he also raped her.
Of course, not all men are rapists, but enough are that women and girls are right to be very careful at all times.

[Silent3]

101. Where do you get "Men aren't that dangerous!" out of the OP?

I explicitly out the much higher on more common risk from men known to a victim as opposed to from a stranger.

They aren't that especially dangerous when encountered out and about by random, however. That really is true.

[viva la]

110. Please go back and read the end of the original post.

I copied the "oh jeez" directly from that.

[ms liberty]

86. Women don't "walk around scared"- we are aware of our surroundings and potential predators at every moment

Because we have to be to protect ourselves. It is not fear to be prepared and aware of the potential dangers around you - and that includes the man or men who might or might not be a problem or a threat.

Your comments in this post and thread are insulting and tone deaf.

[Silent3]

99. I never said anything about or against simple preparedness

The bear-vs-man discussion going around the internet is about actually walking around scared, as is that meme I posted in the OP -- with much more than mere caution being expressed.

[ms liberty]

119. No, it's not about walking around scared. Talk about missing the point!

It's about woman in the woods, minding her own damn business. Would she rather see a bear or a man? Women pick the bear because the bear is a less dangerous prospect than the man. It's a rational threat assessment. We're not terrified of men for no reason, we are nontrusting and wary of them for due cause. We've all been assaulted, threatened or attacked, BY MEN. Men we know, and men we don't know.

[Silent3]

132. I'm not sure the stats exist to prove which is riskier, however

Yes, more women have obviously been assault be men than bears. But women don't encounter bears very frequently. Even out in the wilderness, like a national park, you're probably going to run into more men that bears.

Bear assaults are only rare mostly direct encounters with bears are rare. I'd say it is not at all a foregone conclusion that you're safer from a bear (especially, say, a grizzly bear), on a per-encounter basis, than a human male.

[ms liberty]

235. I think you've mansplained enough. If you're still this clueless now, you're never gonna get it.

[Doodley]

97. I have done all those things, and I'm a guy. Only a few times, but I have done them. My wife has too, and says her

friends have. Now, it is wrong to say all women do that, but a potentially dangerous situation would be at night, nobody else around, and a man approaching. Ditto, I wouldn't feel safe either.

[haele]

102. Assault by a male will happen to lone women more often -

Because assault is not about sex or gender, but because of the power differential between men and women, both physically and culturally.
A man who wants to dominate will not go after someone his own size, he's going to go after someone smaller and lighter, more easy to bully. Men in groups go after other lone men. A single man who "is having a bad day" will go after a woman or child (or boy or small man) - because again - they're easier to dominate. Make them feel small and helpless makes him feel stronger and more masculine.

And in a case of assault, people will victim blame women; we're damned if we get attacked (what was she doing or wearing?), like we are supposed to be in control of every situation or interaction we find ourselves in. We're also supposed to be nice, and not make him even more angry. Just take the compliment, smile some more, let him buy you a drink and put his hand on your butt...

Also, culturally, there's this strong meme that men "just can't help themselves" - a real man is supposed to be strong, aggressive, and in control of everything around him.
We can't win. We as both girls and women are supposed to be stronger and more in control than men, and we're supposed to be psychics, knowing what is going to happen in advance and anticipate what the man we meet is thinking. Look, in the Navy, I developed a real thick skin when it came to "jokes" and carry a racheting cable cutter with me when I was assigned to a ship. I also "presented" as everyone's little sister or supervisor's daughters. I had a lot of practice as my folks often took me on campus while they were both getting their degrees (parents couldn't afford regular babysitters) and I got to see the various types of young male/female interactions first hand.
Now a days, my direct attention, sarcasm and old age protect me from unwanted persistence or harassment, not to mention my cane. But I'm still cautious when I see a male who seems to be presenting as aggressively distracted or upset, because who knows how he's going to try to assuage whatever feelings of anger or inadequacy he thinks he's suffering under.

Not until it's no longer acceptable for men to take out their frustrations on "weaker people" will you get the answer the "but I'm not that type of guy " doesn't like to hear.

Haele

[ecstatic]

113. You're describing it wrong. Imagine a jogger running with a dog stick

to protect him/herself against rogue/violent pit bulls. As women, we take certain precautions, some more than others. I don't walk around scared, but sometimes at night when at the store I take additional precautions such as keeping one hand close to pepper spray/personal alarm. When I get in my car, I immediately lock all doors behind me to prevent the awkwardness of having to lock it for a single person approaching. Just sensible precautions like that -- I think everyone should take those precautions.

I will also say that men who are supposedly good guys should stop being so clueless about it. If you see a woman walking alone, don't approach her in the parking lot or as she's approaching her car or anywhere outside at night. I once saw a guy tinkering around my car. When I caught him he played it off and said he liked my car. It was really unsettling - he may have put a tracker on it - not sure but I blocked the entire incident out of my mind.

[Silent3]

121. My post has nothing to do with mere precautions

But actually sense of fear, which has definitely been expressed in many cases, and is at the heart of the whole man/bear thing, which isn't about precautions.

[ecstatic]

125. The fear does not kick in until we're confronted with the threat. Not before.

We wouldn't be able to function in society if it were as you describe.

[Silent3]

128. I'm not sure what you mean by "confronted with the threat"

For some people, a lonely parking garage at night is, in and of itself, the thing that feels like a threat, and might trigger fear. Even paralyzing fear.

For others, fear might not kick in until some other person appeared.

For still yet others, there might not be any fear at all until an overt act of aggression occurs.

And across all of these, there can be different levels of preparedness and alertness which aren't necessarily at the same level as the feeling of fear.

[ecstatic]

203. This might be a women are from Venus

Men are from Mars type discussion because I'm truly lost. I don't understand what you're saying.

[betsuni]

217. Means women are emotional and stupid and "demonize men" for no reason, men are rational and think about STATISTICS.

And women like bears too much.

[nolabear]

140. Men teach us to be wary from an early age.

Wary/nervous/afraid, it’s a matter of degree. But the actions of men in both public and private, actions that intimate that we are sexual or other kinds of prey, make us park under the lights, cross the street, avoid being alone in some situations, and yes, feel fear far more than men do. You TEACH us when you run your hand up our leg when no one can see, or hoot at us on the street, or insinuate we might get that grade or promotion if only… That behavior from random men day after day, year after year, makes you all suspect. It’s not us. It’s you.

[Straw Man]

141. I hope it isn't mansplaining ...

... to point out that New Hampshire doesn't have any brown bears -- only black bears, the wimpy cousins of the bear family. But, as has been pointed out, stray or feral dogs can be a real threat, and so can humans.

I don't advocate shooting first and asking questions later, but using any method of force, up to and including lethal force, is justified, IMO, when a real threat presents itself. If you are approached in a threatening manner, that's when the air horn, bear spray, or firearm can come into play. There's no reason for a stranger you encounter in the woods to approach you uninvited, and if someone gets too close -- 15 feet is what self-defense classes teach as a safe distance -- a loud warning should be followed with action commensurate with maintaining your own safety and security.

[Silent3]

147. Oops! Meant to type black bear

Yes, brown bears aren't in NH, and are more dangerous than black bears, which you'd pretty much have to go out of your way to provoke.

I'll correct the post.

[niyad]

160. You "don't want to seem callous"??? Then why did you post that

callous, clueless piece? Please do us all a favour and delete it, and apologize for your (not seeming, but very real) callousness.

[Silent3]

163. Nope, no deletion. I usually avoid such topics...

...but every now and then I decide to bring up a topic that I know will get taken totally the wrong way from how I mean it by a lot of people, just because I don't always want to be intimidated away from interesting discussions by the stupid ways I can predict something will be taken the wrong way.

Yes, I'm quite sure you think you didn't take anything I wrote the wrong way. I really don't care.

Here's a rare response from someone who actually got the point: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18930827

[niyad]

165. Sadly, I am not in the least surprised. Contrary to your last line,

the rest of us "got it", loud and clear.

remdi95

[Silent3]

167. So PoindexterOglethorpe didn't get it, like you do, when she replied to me?

She missed what was clear to you, and failed to attack the heartless mansplainer as was required to protect her fellow women?

[MontanaMama]

172. You clearly don't care.

And, it shows. Congrats.

[Silent3]

173. No, I really don't care...

...about a knee-jerk kind of response which was totally predictable. But it's the only thing here I don't care about, probably not what you imagine I don't care about.

[MontanaMama]

287. And yet here you are.

Boggles the mind, actually.

[Silent3]

289. You can't even parse what I said I don't care about correctly.

So eager are you to spot something you can treat as if it’s a contradiction you can make a snarky remark about.

[MontanaMama]

294. It's not snark.

And it does boggle the mind that you choose to die on this hill. Talk about missing the whole point.

[betsuni]

324. ...

[Scrivener7]

242. One woman agreed with you. DOZENS of women and men disagreed with you.

Maybe the two of you are the ones who missed the point.

Also, your assumptions about the motives of the people who disagree with you are ridiculous. Keep that in mind about the many other things you might assume, without good reason. You aren't as good at reading between the lines as you imagine.

[betsuni]

175. Why would anyone get defensive about women's experiences? Women "get all worked up about" "demonizing men"?

Ah, the real victim. Look how logical I am, using statistics so calmly and with reason, a true philosopher. Numbers are what counts, not life experience. Now I'm going for a nice walk in a thunderstorm with a metal umbrella because so few people get struck by lightning (and it's usually lightning you know, not random lightning) -- what could possibly happen, statistic-wise?

[Silent3]

176. Who got defensive or worked up?

Why do you project those things upon my post, then see (and probably insist on continuing to see) everything I could say in response through that lens?

But no, I should give up. I was being defensive. I was worked up. Why I was those things? It's a mystery to me.

Satisfied?

[betsuni]

177. ...

[mcar]

247. Yep, now we come to the meat of the matter

the poor, poor menz.

[Sky Jewels]

179. I know several women who have been raped by males.

Some were stranger rapes.

One example among many: A famous serial rapist/murderer broke into a classmate’s home and raped her. She was 13. He was operating in my neighborhood and there is evidence that he had been on my block and tried to get into a neighbor’s house. Their dog barking thwarted him. He was attempting to get into the room of another young classmate of mine. Also a girl, of course.

Every single woman you know could probably tell you one, two , three or many more stories of being assaulted, grabbed, chased, stalked and otherwise terrorized by a male. Lots and lots of strangers in that group, believe me.

Your attempt to minimize our reality as women has really pissed me off. You seem very condescending and proud of your obtuse entitlement and sense of superiority as a male.

My advice? Stay in your lane and stop telling women how to react to very real dangers.

[Jedi Guy]

180. The sad reality is that men and women inhabit the same spaces very differently.

When women answer that they'd prefer the bear, what they're getting at, I think, is that they know the score. The bear is an obvious predator that will most likely telegraph its intentions clearly. It won't pretend to be a deer to get the woman to drop her guard before revealing that, surprise, it's actually a bear. A man might pretend to be harmless before revealing that he's anything but, at which point he might be in a position to strike.

If the bear does decide to attack, it's doing so for food or a perceived need to defend itself. If a man attacks, there's an additional, terrifying dimension added: the desire or need to dominate, to control, to violate, to remove agency and personhood. That most certainly changes the emotional impact regardless of the outcome.

If I'm walking alone through a rough part of town at night, I might justifiably be concerned about being mugged, perhaps beaten up, perhaps even killed. A woman in the same situation is worried about all of those possibilities plus the fear of being violated in a way I'm not. We are inhabiting the same space differently.

When I discussed this thought experiment with my wife (she chose the bear, by the way), she said that the only time she relaxes and lowers her guard when in public is when she's with me. She jokingly called it "scary dog privilege" because I'm a big dude with a shaved head and resting axe murderer face. I'm not a violent person but I look intimidating to a lot of people. She's not the first person to have told me so.

The "not all men!" furor over this thought experiment is pretty silly, as well. We're not labeled, guys. We don't have "good guy" or "bad guy" tattooed on our foreheads. There's no easy way for women to tell who's safe and who isn't. I'd never harm a woman (or anyone else, for that matter) except in self defense, but if a woman sees me walking towards her on a dark street I'm not going to get tilted if she puts distance between us. She has no way of knowing who I am or what I intend. I'm just a big, intimidating guy in her world. She has no way of knowing I'm a big teddy bear.

We as men can be aware of this headspace women inhabit. We can avoid doing things that may make women feel unsafe, such as walking closely behind them. But it's not our place to be mad about it or tell women they shouldn't feel a certain type of way. We inhabit these spaces in a way they do not.

[betsuni]

190. Thank you. "resting axe murderer face" LOL!

In my twenties I sometimes found myself being bodyguard to my petite women friends at bars. I'm a pretty tall woman and have a resting-something-face, found somehow I was intimidating to men without even doing anything. They seemed to just know, like instinct. Like bears maybe. Not on my watch!

[Jedi Guy]

237. Yeah, a friend of mine coined the "resting axe murderer face" a while back.

I guess I just walk around looking wildly pissed off and homicidal on the regular even though I'm not. Even back in my teens I had women tell me that I looked scary until they got to know me and realized I was a teddy bear.

Several years ago I worked in an office building downtown and my shift ended at 10:30 pm. Several of the ladies I worked with who finished their shifts near that time would wait for me to wrap up so I could walk them to their cars. Downtown Hamilton is sketchy on a good day, let alone at night. There were a couple times guys looked like they had an idea and then reconsidered after giving me a once-over. Not that I'm an MMA fighter or anything, but they don't know that.

Like you said, not on my watch!

[mcar]

248. +1000!

[meadowlander]

182. Chance of being injured by a bear is 1 in 2.1 million. Chance of a woman being sexually assaulted is 1 in 4.

So I'd say women have that risk scaled about right. Next question.

[Silent3]

183. The bear/man choice is about a single situation in which you will encounter one or the other

Bear attacks are rare compared to attacks by human males not because human males are more dangerous, but because they are encountered up close much, much more often.

If you're in the woods, round the corner of a trail and find yourself ten feet from a grizzly bear, yes, you're at much greater peril than if you find yourself ten feet from a random human male.

[meadowlander]

184. Most bears won't automatically attack you either.

I think the point is that you only have to be wrong once and there's no way just looking at them to tell if they are the type that will attack or not.

I encounter dozens of men every day and have never encountered a bear. I have been stalked at my home by a customer from work, sexually harassed multiple times on public transport, and propositioned when I was 12 by a stranger in a car while out on a walk. I will apply a level of threat assessment in my day to day actual life that is relevant to that risk and to my own experiences, not based on an absurd hypothetical, thanks.

[Silent3]

186. The "absurd hypothetical" isn't my absurd hypothetical. It's been making the rounds of the internet.

If your response to the hypothetical is "I don't care to deal with hypotheticals", fine. I was simply making a point about risk assessment within the terms of the hypothetical that you don't want to deal with.

[meadowlander]

199. Oh, well if it's been going around the internet, then I guess we have to engage with it seriously.

There is no actual situation where you are walking in the woods and get to pick what you encounter. Therefore, it's an absurd hypothetical.

If you are using it to illustrate a wider point that women shouldn't feel afraid because it is statistically unlikely that any given man they encounter will attack them, I'd say a number of people have already answered that for you and so have I above.

It only takes one.

There is no way to know if the stranger in front of you is that one.

It is not a statistically insignificant chance that it is (unlike being mauled by a bear).

Women should not hesitate to act accordingly or be made to feel like they are overreacting, being hysterical or being inherently unfair to the "nice" guys.

Don't like it? Well I guess life sucks for you then. I don't like having to look over my shoulder instead of enjoying a nice walk in the woods but there we are. Don't blame me. Blame the flasher that was arrested a few weeks ago at my favorite beach and the rapist arrested a few months ago terrorising the girls at the local college by breaking into their apartments and molesting them in their sleep and the guy who raped and killed a real estate agent a month or two before that and the guy that tried to grab an 11 year old walking home from school a few weeks before that.

[Torchlight]

322. Absolutely! Argument reponere Meme is enshrined in most Citical Thought text books (3rd editions and up)

This link below may help provide better insight into concepts and perceptions of those concepts we're not familiar with as well as other are. It provided me with some great suggestions on how not to be intolerant (our most orthodox intolerances often seem to be those we most aggresively deny even exist), and illustrated a few mirrors into my own blind spots as well. As Maya Angelou wrote 'Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.'

Good luck!


https://democraticunderground.com/101312142

[betsuni]

185. #NotAllBear/Mans

[Silent3]

187. I was fully aware some people wouldn't be able to resist applying that lens

But I'm not going to always kowtow to such absurdity when I think an idea could lead to an interesting discussion.

[betsuni]

188. "lens"

[Silent3]

189. Do you require help with the metaphor?

Or is there some uncertainty what a lens of any sort might be?

[betsuni]

191. ...

[Crunchy Frog]

218. That wasn't in your OP or in your 1st scores of reply posts.

You're clearly losing the "debate" so now you're moving the goalposts.

[PeaceWave]

297. Chance of being sexually assaulted by a bear is also far less than that of being mauled by a man.

[NanaCat]

201. TBF

All of those scenarios can apply with someone the woman knows as much as they do with strangers.

If you've never had a hyper-controlling significant other, or the guy you know but don't want to be with who refuses to take no for an answer, then you have no idea how much all of those things can still apply.

And what's really twisted about it all? It's even scarier when it's the guy you know than it is with strangers.

[tazkcmo]

216. This reads like a man wrote it.

Extremely tone deaf, minimizing and woefully ignorant.

I'm a man and find this amazingly offensive.

[NanaCat]

231. Well, you have a brain and are capable of empathy

And don't think women are too stupid to understand real threat analysis, like, oh, how much more often, STATISTICALLY, that we are likely to face stranger rape than we are to face a bear attack.

Plus, you clearly don't have an ego so minuscule and fragile that you don't find it threatening when women say they are more afraid of men than they are of bears--because your empathy allows you to grasp the statistical importance of how much more often women are facing men rather than bears.

That makes all the difference.

[A_Woman_from_MI]

230. It's the bear because women are telling you it's the bear.

Dadchats has your stats. Perhaps this will help.

[link:https://www.tiktok.com/@dadchats/video/7364106067070111019?lang=en|

[spooky3]

238. That vid is excellent. Thanks.

[Brenda]

239. Don't know who this guy is but that is excellent.

Thanks for posting it.

[Easterncedar]

325. I had to go back to watch it again

Last edited Sat May 11, 2024, 12:25 AM - Edit history (1)

And to copy the link. It’s great.

[mainer]

234. Does a deer walk around scared? How about a mountain lion?

There's the difference.
A deer has to stay alert at all times.
A mountain lion can take a relaxed snooze when he wants to.

[Patton French]

240. The first rule of holes...

…stop digging.

[TSExile]

241. Unfortunately, there are those who ignore that important advice.

Just ask Kristi Noem.

[ismnotwasm]

243. Yes, men are that dangerous.

Men fear other men, not women.

[mcar]

246. Risk is in the eye of the beholder

I do not think it is appropriate for a man to suggest women should be scaling down fear.

Have you ever been cat-called at by a group of men?

Have you ever had men/man follow you down a city street saying things like, "c'mon honey, I just want to talk to you. Smile, baby." Etc., ad nauseum.

Those occurences don't come anywhere near actual sexual assault, but they happen all the time to women. And, yes, they put us on high alert. They should.

Men (some) feel they have some kind of god-given right to harass women. Women are at risk of harassment, or worse, just walking down the street.

Maybe you should scale down your judgment of women's reactions.

[Silent3]

255. Feeling of risk is in the eye of the beholder, yes.

Actual risk? Is flying in an airplane actually riskier for people who are afraid of flying, and driving or riding in a car safer because less risk is felt? No.

[betsuni]

257. Being in an airplane or car crash or a fire is horrible, but it's death. Being raped or murdered is torture

by someone who is enjoying it.

[Silent3]

258. And that had to do with accuracy of risk assessment how?

And it’s not as if car crashes don’t often lead to life long suffering rather than death.

Humans in general, not just when it comes to hot-button topics, are terrible at assessing real risk. Our sense of familiarity with a situation, and our sense of being in control (sometimes real, sometimes illusory) largely drive the how much risk we feel, regardless of how statistically risky something actually might be.

[betsuni]

260. STATISTICALLY what now?

[mcar]

262. This is devolving into mish mash

[betsuni]

266. Mission accomplished!

Bears must be coming out of hibernation by now, cranky and hungry.

[Dorian Gray]

277. I wish you had spent about

three seconds assessing the risk of starting this thread.

[Ocelot II]

259. If non-fatal aviation mishaps occurred every day (and actually they do),

and people experienced or even saw those incidents, they might start re-evaluating their risk and become more afraid of flying. Fatal plane crashes are very rare these days, so the likelihood of being killed in one is minuscule. But if you started reading NTSB reports (and not everything even makes it into an NTSB report) and learned that things happen in airplanes every day that don't result in accidents - but could have - you might think differently about flying. You might conclude that the risk is far greater than you thought.

It's not an exact analogy, but women experience non-physical, or at least non-penetrative, sexual attacks from men every day. Most are verbal or symbolic - catcalls, gestures, insults, offers to perform some sex act on them, flashing - and mostly these aren't even reported, but when they happen over and over they add up to a pervasive sense of danger from men, that there is a risk of something much more serious. All women know this and we don't need mansplaining about statistics. We know the risk is real.

[mcar]

261. Apples and oranges

I'm responding to your OP, you are changing the subject.

[Silent3]

263. How so?

My OP talks about both perceived risk and actual risk. Your response was limited to the subject of perceived risk. So how is it me who is changing the topic?

[limbicnuminousity]

256. I'll take

signs that a person has lived a privileged life for $100, Alex.

[Ocelot II]

269. Privilege can be defined as "shit you don't have to put up with."

A significant aspect of male privilege is not having to put up with sexual harassment when they go out in public and having to take extra precautions for their own safety when they're alone at night.

[Sky Jewels]

271. And then having the gall to tell women to not be so afraid

because women’s fear doesn’t make the OP feel so great. It’s all about him and his feelings, see.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

268. Just want to take this opportunity to say I'm sorry.

I'm sorry for the shit women go through normally, but this level of absolutely clueless mansplaining on a liberal discussion board is just gross. I'm sorry. I hear you. I get the point of the bear vs man thing. Valid point. Every man needs to figure it out and do better, but, as evidenced here, a lot won't.

I'm sorry.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

272. Facebook algorithm just offered me this

Seems on point

[Torchlight]

278. Never ran into a bear outside of a zoo.

I'd bet a paycheck that no wild bears (grizzly or black... but maybe polar) have ever been self-righteous or sanctimonious enough to imply that the amount of personal fear, concern or even just caution held by others is incorrect; and further, based that judgement solely on its own undefined measures and standards.



Zoo bears though, never gonna trust one of them. Shifty eyes and all that.

[Hekate]

279. Great discussion. Do you use a purse seine or a drift net to catch those bears?

[mjvpi]

282. I live where there are bears. I never put my trash out the night before pickup.

I’m not equating having to pick up garbage with of sexual assault. What I am saying is the reality of living with bears is that you always have to be aware of their base behavior.

[CelticCrow]

284. The "Thought Experiment" is completely absurd

We know women get attacked a lot, much much more than officially reported because of how our society treats them along with the self blame that often occurs in these types of situations and possibly due to leverage the predator may have over the victim.

While it's statistically true that women are much more likely to be attacked by people they know, it's a fallacy to assume you're "safer" in the presence of a stranger because of these statistics.

It presumes there's some inherent difference with regard to strangers vs family/friends/co-workers/acquaintances and for that to be true one would have to assume that women in general have really shitty luck with the number of predators they "know".

The only tangible difference in the 2 groups is opportunity. Those inside the victim's circle are presented multiple opportunities for the predator to evaluate if the circumstances are favorable to them and to choose a time and place to attack that stacks the odds in their favor. The stranger by definition does not. Does this make a stranger any less of a threat? Not in my book.

To assume that the evil that lies in the hearts of some of the men they know does not exist in a stranger because of some statistic is ridiculous and dangerous. Women's interactions with those they know directly inform their interactions with those that they don't. It is perfectly natural to extend that threat out to people that they don't know, threat assessment is huge part of our evolution as a species. We often try to override those uneasy feelings warning us of danger in a modern society, people are conditioned to tune them out when they should be listening even more closely to them.

Bears have killed 61 people in the US since 1900 and while they are indeed apex predators with the capability of easily killing any human they encounter, their historical behavior is to flee in the presence of humans, this informs our interactions with them should we find ourselves in that situation. Man on the other hand has a proven track record of preying upon women and so it informs their interactions with said man in some random encounter in the wild and deservedly so regardless of what story you may want to tell with statistics.

[Crunchy Frog]

285. So, I honestly had no idea where the stuff on this post was coming from,

so Googled it. I came on this surprisingly informative article, given that it's from CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/06/us/man-bear-safety-tiktok-question-cec/index.html

Among the bits that I found interesting, a young woman asked her father, who was a lifelong bear hunter, whether he thought she would be better off encountering a man or a bear in the woods, and he unequivocally answered that she'd be better off encountering the bear.

Anyway, the purpose of the hypothetical question is to spark genuine dialog, not to lecture those irrational women about how wrong they are in their fears.

Not that the OP even framed the issue according to the current internet meme.

[thucythucy]

288. "Men aren't that dangerous"??

What planet do you live on?

Which gender commits the overwhelming number of murders? Mass murders? Serial murders?

Which gender commits the overwhelming number of war crimes?

Which gender controls the levers of power in the overwhelming majority of nations, corporations, political movements, and which gender uses that power to suppress the autonomy of the gender they choose to oppress?

Which gender commits the majority of rapes, incest, and the overwhelming majority of incidents of sexual harassment?

Which gender is more often guilty of domestic violence?

For any woman or girl alone with a strange man in a situation where help isn't immediately available, the safest option is to be cautious. That caution is certainly justified.

And yes, it's not ALL men. But then again, all men have a role to play in this ongoing reality. They have, as a gender, the power to change this reality.

And the first step in making that change is to recognize this reality for what it is.

[PeaceWave]

295. Sadly, young men and boys need to be educated...

Not to look a women directly in the eyes, as doing so can be interpreted as a threat. No hands on hips, crossed arms or holding doors open, as such body language can be interpreted as displays of superiority. No speaking to a woman unless and until spoken to. Under no circumstances, any degree of physical contact. The problem is that so much of our media has historically green lighted such things. The Rom-Com where the guy literally bumps into the woman, brazenly asks if she'd like to grab a coffee, kisses her under dubious circumstances, does something to offend her and then spends most of the movie pursuing her to "get her back?" A Hollywood glamorization of stalking and out-dated treatment of women as chattel. Times ARE changing though.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

299. .

[Torchlight]

300. Such orthodoxy.

Good luck. Sounds serious!

[thucythucy]

327. Young men and boys need to be educated not to rape

or sexually harass.

And people on the internet need to be educated not to trivialize rape and sexual violence.

[MorbidButterflyTat]

298. What is the point of this?

You are blatantly and insensitively repeatedly ignoring what women are telling you. WHY?

You are not a woman. You do not have the right to judge women. You do not have the right to tell us how we feel, or how we should feel; our reasons and motivations are none of your business or concern.

I think you like the attention, and being deliberately contrary for shits and giggles.

"I don't want to seem callous about the fear that many women experience."

That is exactly what you are doing. Repeatedly.

I will say this: I would absolutely choose a bear, any bear, over your arrogant obnoxiousness.

[róisín_dubh]

301. Christ, this place has been dumb lately...

But this is the dumbest post I’ve read in awhile.

Want to know why women choose the bear? Come spend a day with me, doing my work. You can then see why women fear men. You’d have nightmares forever if you have a soul or even an empathetic part of your brain.

[ProfessorGAC]

303. Top 10 Most Unnecessary OPs Ever

I'm sorry I read through it now.
Self-delete seems appropriate.

[Hekate]

310. I realized early on that what he really wants is prurient details. I suggest people stop giving them to him....

Also there is the question of drift nets or purse seines — though he’s making a huge haul regardless.

[ProfessorGAC]

312. Hence My Use Of The Word...

..."unnecessary". Well, unnecessary to the rest of DU.

[Hekate]

313. Yup

[Hekate]

304. Cool story, bro

[Marthe48]

307. I learned early

To avoid being alone with males, whether they were relatives, neighbors or friends. Hit on many times, 2 physical attacks by strangers that I energetically fought off, inappropriate behaviour. It hasn't happened for a long time. I think I learned what to look for. All the women I know, of all ages, follow the list set out in one of the first posts in this thread. Since I have fought off men, but haven't fought a bear, not sure what I'd rather meet.

[Solly Mack]

309. The male human animal or the animal type genus Ursus? The human male. Easier to gut. If necessary, of course.

I never go hiking without my bowie knife. Did you know your intestines don't always come tumbling out after you've been gut sliced? Sometimes that happens but it can also take a few hours for everything to give and come sloshing out onto the ground. Human intestines are blue and purple, some red and yellow. Like a rainbow vessel that's full of shit. Agonizing death, I'm told.

Gosh, that thought exercise was fun! I really enjoyed it.

What else you got?

[Hekate]

311. You go, girl

[PeaceWave]

315. Nobody here seems to give a damn what the bear wants...

Every year or so, someone jumps into a panda bear enclosure and tries to give one a hug - whereupon the panda typically bites a hunk out of that person's thigh - leaving an indelible reminder that, although they may look adorable and snuggable, pandas really don't like being approached and touched. And yet here we have a meme of the moment actively encouraging women/bear bonding moments.

[Hekate]

316. Did you forget your sarcasm thingy?

[Scrivener7]

319. He's one of those "trying way too hard" types.

[BannonsLiver]

320. Let me just say this as a man

And as someone who has been nose to nose with a very large black bear by myself with no one around in the woods, I will take the bear every single time.

[chowder66]

323. Bear

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/man-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-hikers-sleeping-women-in-ventura-county/

[SweetT]

326. Every single one.

I know it personally. It is a norm among my friends and female relatives. If men had to experience this even once, the terror might teach them that women do not deserve this. I am not a fan of violence, but if rape culture continues, then I advocate that women arm ourselves. A singer named Diamanda Galas has some very wicked ideas as to what should be done to the terrorist man. I have read it all and would rather see men change for the better.

[Nittersing]

328. Damn. Thought I had trashed this thread. And blocked the OP

Guess I'll give it another try

[nocoincidences]

330. My attitude is on display at the bottom of every post I make.

Then he said, leaning forward: ‘You’re strange animals, you women intellectuals. Tell me: what’s it like to be a woman?’ I took my rifle from behind my chair and shot him dead. ‘It’s like that,’ I said. Joanna Russ

[PeaceWave]

331. The irony here is that a mountain lion screaming sounds very much like a woman in danger.

Most men who are not aware of this fact would be inclined to run TOWARDS the screaming - presumably in order to try and save what they perceive to be a woman in danger - only to get the shit kicked out of them by a mountain lion.

[Hekate]

332. Replied in wrong thread

[demmiblue]

333. Caption time:

“Let me in, there’s a man in the forest”

Link to tweet

Link to tweet