— Homophobia: The fear that another man will treat you like you treat women.

[kpete]

— Homophobia: The fear that another man will treat you like you treat women.

“We were discussing homosexuality because of an allusion to it in the book we were reading, and several boys made comments such as, “That’s disgusting.” We got into the debate and eventually a boy admitted that he was terrified/disgusted when he was once sharing a taxi and the other male passenger made a pass at him. The lightbulb went off. “Oh,” I said. “I get it. See, you are afraid, because for the first time in your life you have found yourself a victim of unwanted sexual advances by someone who has the physical ability to use force against you.” The boy nodded and shuddered visibly.“But,” I continued. “As a woman, you learn to live with that from the time you are fourteen, and it never stops. We live with that fear every day of our lives. Every man walking through the parking garage the same time you are is either just a harmless stranger or a potential rapist. Every time.” The girls in the room nodded, agreeing. The boys seemed genuinely shocked. “So think about that the next time you hit on a girl. Maybe, like you in the taxi, she doesn’t actually want you to.””

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2012/03/28/the-terror-of-catcalling-ctd-1/

[bemildred]

1. LOL.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

133. A serious graphic look at the issue ("passes", harassment) from another angle:

[bemildred]

134. I look at it a simpler way:

It is not polite to comment on other peoples appearance or character without their consent. It is rude, can be either intrusive or manipulative, even if it is a compliment, and it is none of your business. I often, for example, have people compliment me in ways that are contrary to how I view myself, and I always resent uninvited comments on what I'm like or what I should do. I don't want or need a sound track or commentary to explain to me what I am doing. And that can include being hit on, though that depends a lot on how it's done.

And I'm not worried or afraid of being attacked.

[smirkymonkey]

2. +10.000

[uriel1972]

117. and one... nt

[KT2000]

3. have always believed that

the fear is based upon an understanding of certain male behavior.
Good for Sullivan for pointing this out.

[SharonAnn]

31. I said this to my Dad once when he was ranting about

how disgusting homosexuality was. When I asked him why he was so upset about it he said "The thought of some man making advances, putting his hands on me, propositioning me is just disgusting. It's revolting!" I laughed and said, "Dad, it happens to me and other women all the time. We just learn to deal with it."

[LuvNewcastle]

4. Very true.

They're also afraid of losing the respect of other men, which they crave. To men who view women as possessions, a pretty wife is a status symbol, something to impress other men with. It's about power, and they see gay men as powerless and they have a lot of fear about being seen as powerless by other men. They're afraid of being looked upon as a mere possession of someone else. That's why it's so often true that a man's attitude toward gay men is a very good indicator of how much respect he has for women.

[Rozlee]

125. Profound. You've hit the nail on the head.

It's something I've noticed again and again. Homophobes generally don't respect women. They have such rigid ideas of sexual conformity that anything, or anyone, that steps outside the boundaries of their notions of what constitutes normal male or female behavior is labeled a deviant. Witness the way they excoriated Hilary Clinton and other strong women with rumors of lesbianism. Feminists are labeled "femiNazis" and Rush Limbaugh characterized them as all being ugly and not able to get husbands. I guess to an extent most men look up to cops, firefighters, soldiers and for, that matter, so do women. How many action movies or romance novels are there where the hero is an everyday ordinary college professor? And no, by that I don't mean Indiana Jones. But, homophobes take it to a more extreme level. Any man who appreciates the arts is suspect. Female jocks are viewed with suspicion. When I joined the military, the conventional wisdom was that women enlisted for one of three reasons: a) they were so ugly that they figured the male-rich military was the best place to find a husband b) they were nymphos, and c) they were lesbians, or unfeminine, which to them is the same thing. You are 100% right. Homophobia and misogyny seem to be flip sides of the same coin in many men.

[The Magistrate]

5. Home Truths, Ma'am

[sheshe2]

6. K&R!

[annabanana]

7. This is it, EXACTLY!!

Guys.. If you want a visceral understanding of a very real and present aspect of our lives... please let it sink in.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

8. Rarely is anything stated as perfectly as this! n/t

[cliffordu]

9. Yep

[redqueen]

10. How many times must this be explained

before men evolve past treating women like "antelope in a game preserve".

[FrodosPet]

68. Exactly!

Whenever I am physically attracted to a woman, I remember that no woman wants a fat middle aged man with undersized "junk" (and that's what the penis is...junk) attracted to her. So whatever it takes, I suppress those filthy feelings and try to avoid her. Fortunately, I work with people by phone, not in person, so it is rare nowadays I even have to deal with women in person other than at the store. Then it is keep my mouth shut as much as possible and don't look at her. Just get my stuff and go back to my sad lonely life of reading too much news and posting on DU.

[dawg]

138. Dude, I hope you are just being sarcastic

No one thinks you should have to feel that way.

[FrodosPet]

142. I wish I was being sarcastic

Between spending time reading radical feminist sites like "Rage Against The Manchine" and "I Blame The Patriarchy", and my former roommate telling me that lusting after an unwilling woman, or looking at sexy pictures, was rape just as much as physically attacking her, and seeing women avoiding me in fear, I have realized that no matter what, no matter how gentle of a soul I am, or strive to be, that I am a monster because I have a penis.

I am not saying every woman sees me that way. But time and time again, it has been pointed out here and other places the mere fact of my existence as a fat scruffy middle aged man is a threat to at least some women - even if only to their emotional well being. I have no desire to ever force myself on a woman, but I have come to realize the mere act of saying hello can be considered a threat.

[Sheldon Cooper]

139. Yeah, that's exactly what it says.

[TeamPooka]

11. K&R!

[2theleft]

12. Just perfect. n/t

[Rain Mcloud]

13. That is just part of the equation

often young men going through their sexual prime will become aroused by another male.
With the moors in a "christian society founded by god"homosexuality is a sin against god and by proxy every citizen and the state itself,
the subject in question here will self-admonish and lash out at others perceived as having these same shared feelings.

The next time that you witness an aggressive bigot toward homosexuals,ask yourself if the above may explain this behavior or is it the fear of submission to the desires of a competitor.
Either way,it is not a pretty picture but is one that bears reflection on who we are as a society,which was supposedly based upon inalienable rights of fair treatment with all(bar none)being equal.
DOMA is discrimination and is therefor unconstitutional.

[matt819]

14. Question

How did the word homophobia come about? Homophobes don't fear homosexuals. They hate and despise them with the entire fiber of their being. Too bad there isn't a word that reflects this level of bigotry and hate.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. "Homohatred"

It was proposed in a book called "After The Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the90's." However, the term never caught on in any considerable way.

As for "homophobia," I believe it popped up in the late '50's (1958 I think). The "phobia" does not refer to the psychological fear, but rather is a sociological term.

[nolabear]

21. I think they do fear them, only because they know the secret.

The secret is that they know they have separated themselves from a group that has become the focus of abuse, and must reinforce that because they know we all have the capacity to be excited by a member of the same sex. I'm not saying it's primary; we are born with strong preferences and identities. But heterosexual people can be turned on by members of the same sex. Some people are just not as insecure about whether they will be accepted by others and so don't have to reinforce their identities by banding against an "other".

That's what I think.

[plantwomyn]

127. homomisia.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Overly simplistic, and not all that useful.

I used to use this statement in presentations. But, years ago started to realize it is overly simple and it is sexist in its own right. Homophobia and misogyny are tightly associated in certain respects and areas, but homophobia is not simply an off-shoot/expression of homophobia. This statement is useful in situations where education is to be minimal.

[Nye Bevan]

17. But they hate lesbians too, so I'm not sure that's the full explanation.

I think a lot of it is similar to racism and xenophobia in that it is hatred of people who are somehow different.

[Zorra]

35. That's interesting, because in my experience, I've observed that one of the most common men's

sexual fantasies is to engage in sex with two women who are sexually involved with each other.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but only that this is an interesting way to manifest hatred of lesbians.

[mythology]

44. But it's often two women with one guy rather than strictly two women

So it's about women who really need a man and are putting on a show for him where as women that won't sleep with a guy are often called lesbians in a derogatory sense.

Granted there is some lesbian porn that doesn't involve guys, but I believe a majority of that (like porn in general) is directed toward a male audience. I would suspect that lesbian porn directed toward a female audience would receive a similar reaction to the calling a woman a lesbian if she won't sleep with you.

Granted given my relative lack of experience with porn in general, I could be full of it, but that's what I think.

[Zorra]

137. Most every woman can rapidly and easily orchestrate a casual sexual encounter with a man 24/7,

there's really no reason for a woman to bring in a third party for this, it just complicates things unnecessarily.

From my POV, it's usually about two women who are profiting from their specific knowledge of men's sexual fantasies. Some men seem to enjoy interacting, some seem to enjoy watching, most seem to like both.

Many female sex workers are lesbian, but engage in sex with men for profit, despite the fact that they are not sexually attracted to men.

I guess we could say that this is a form of needing a man; but I suspect not in the same sense of need you intended in your post.

I'm curious, do you think it is because of the fact that a woman is born lesbian, ie, is naturally romantically/sexually attracted to women, that homophobic men are inclined to hate her?

Or do you believe it is because lesbians engage in sexual activity with other women that inclines homophobic men to hate them?

Is it how lesbians are born, or their sexual activities, that incline homophobes to hate them?

[Honeycombe8]

51. Not to the same extent, if at all. And if they do, it's because those women aren't

susceptible to the man's charms. But men are okay with the physicality of lesbianism...they understand it because, after all, men like women's bodies, too, so why shouldn't they? They seem okay with the physical part. Woman-on-woman sex is even part of porno for straight men.

They find the man-on-man physicality disgusting...I think that's what some men mean when they use that word. When they see a gay man, they envision that man having anal sex with another man, which a straight man can't deal with. Although....some understand the "need" for that in prison, I've heard a couple of straight men say. Not approval, but they understand that more, since there are no women around. Go figure.

[eridani]

53. But lesbians don't scare them n/t

[lindysalsagal]

64. Oh, no: Straight men LOVE lesbians. That's the double standard.

As long as their young, thin, and pretty, they love lesbians.

Their objections are not ideological or religious: They are so insecure, they're threated by any man who is different.

Period.

[Nye Bevan]

121. I remember them referring to "Ellen Degenerate" when she came out (nt)

[Zorra]

136. Indeed. But, from my POV, it is only

homophobic straight men who are threatened by any man who is different, not all straight men.

[lindysalsagal]

144. I stand corrected. n/t.

[The2ndWheel]

18. A gender specific defintion of a general word

[marble falls]

19. Wish I thought of that.

[dipsydoodle]

20. That is a recurrent joke.

Any one know its origin ?

[Jamastiene]

22. K&R

Well said.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Wait a minute.

The article is using sexism to discourage homophobia.

[Occulus]

24. This article IS homophobia, starting with its title, and including its "point".

This whole thing is a crock of shit that deliberately perpetuates bigoted stereotypes constantly used against gay men for the purpose of furthering a purely feminist agenda. Assumptions, open bigotry, and condescension, and then some, all rolled up into a tidy pack of unapologetic filth.

I have a lot more to say, but I won't unless I'm asked to post it, because my dismissal of it is as contemptuous as it is angry, and none of you will like it at all.

I'm so angry I can barely contain myself. Thanks, kpete.

Thanks awfully.

[Major Nikon]

26. It doesn't seem to do much to explain female homophobes

[Occulus]

27. And repeatedly perpetuates gay male stereotypes from the POV of HETEROSEXUALS

What a fucking bigoted piece. The more I reread it, the more insulted and angry I get.

[plantwomyn]

126. To whom was he attempting to make a point?

Was he suppose to wax philosophically from the POV of a homosexual? Exactly HOW would that have encouraged young heterosexual males to be more introspective of their actions and attitudes?

[HiPointDem]

28. +1.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. It bothers me too.

What I am hearing is that the reason you dislike it is that the article suggests that, like heterosexual men, you're sex mad potential rapists.

Your reaction strikes me as healthy in a way that suggests you, unlike straight men, haven't been browbeaten into accepting the stereotypes directed at you.

I have no doubt that this is a gross oversimplification, but I'm honestly asking for clarification.

Not real keen on homophobia, but teens (the subject of the article) say all kinds of stupid stuff.

[Occulus]

32. That's one reason, yes.

That particular stereotype appears twice, in the first and third quotes. It is particularly odious in the first, in which the teacher- a presumably heterosexual female- assigns an undesired expression of "potential rape" power exerted by the gay passenger against her male student. It is apparent, by her leading, single question, that she directed her student to the conclusion she wanted him to reach: that the gay passenger in the cab was a potentially overpowering figure to her student, physically and sexually.

It reads, to be blunt, like a script.

That's actually a form of not-so-very subtle abuse, to both her student and the absent source of the topic (not to mention, to the reader themselves). It does not address any other possible social or cultural influences regarding homosexuals or homosexual behavior the student may have been exposed to, or any incorrect information or honestly ignorant positions that student may have held, or learned. Essentially, that teacher hear what she wanted to hear: that the male student, exposed to an advance from a gay man, felt the same as a heterosexual woman receiving an unwanted advance from a heterosexual man.

That is vile. It is exactly the sort of absolutely incorrect conflation of behaviors I have long expected from actual homophobes. Gay men do not behave toward women the way misogynistic heterosexual men behave. We just, very simply, do not think that way. Radical feminists will insist that is not true, and we do in fact act like that, but we don't. We simply do not see ourselves as being in any way "better" or "higher on the ladder" than heterosexuals, male or female. We don't hit on random men on the street. We have had that driven home, repeatedly, over and over, for centuries. There is, simply put, no truth at all to the entire idea. We get beaten and killed for that behavior.

In the last quote, the heterosexual man who was the "victim" of a gay male "catcaller" "had to" dive into a Qdoba restaurant to "escape" it. I'm using scare quotes here because I am almost certain this simply never happened, or if it did, the writer left out the part where he said no, and it stopped. We don't do that unless we're comfortable in our surroundings, and unless this happened in the Castro district or Boystown in Chicago or perhaps a few other "big city" places I can name it's simply unbelievable on its face. If we're that comfortable in our surroundings, it's because we're in an area known for a high concentration of homosexuals in the local population. Even the most "out" gay men I know or have met will severely "tone it down" in unfamiliar surroundings.

Heterosexuals who knowingly visit such areas know they're in a "gay part of town", full stop. Tourists not "in the know" learn as much, very quickly (picture a church mom at the Folsom Street Fair. If you want an eyeful, go Google). That whole last quoted section reeks of fiction written around a heterosexual's (perhaps honestly) ignorant conception of how gay men who are comfortable with themselves and their local surroundings behave in public. Maybe (qualifier here used with extreme reservations) it actually did happen, but I have a strong feeling some very pertinent details, place and date chiefest among them, were deliberately left out. Under normal circumstances, we are simply not that bold, and will stop, right away, if asked. Those of us who don't are looked upon by others of us with a lot of scorn. Most of the gay men I know will actually go into "protective buddy" mode once that's made clear to us. Heterosexual women who have visited gay bars will know what I'm getting at here. We usually know almost immediately that our "advances" are unwanted and we will stop, because we don't want to be beaten or killed.

Most of us, the vast majority I've met, are hypersensitive to the fact that our very existence is anathema to some, precisely because we do not know who feels that way about us in a crowd.

I take extreme issue with the article's title itself. That is not and never was any even faintly accurate definition of homophobia. The terms 'homophobe' and 'homophobia' imply a great many nonsexual, but rather social and cultural preconceptions, constructs, laws, memes, perceived behaviors, assumptions, presumptions, and a particularly hateful and bigoted imagining of sexual attraction and focus as a core "goal" that it is astonishing whomever wrote that title could possibly, in 2013, believe it to be anything near an accurate definition. The title itself is one of the very reasons some of us take issue with the term "homosecual" itself, because it places the focus on our sexual behavior, as though it were our all of everything. Furthermore, gay men are not women; a great many of us are far more "manly" or "masculine" than the most laser-straight of heterosexual men (and those straight men who such gay man damned well know it, and we know they know it), and it is only the very most isolated heterosexual, long unexposed to and long isolated from actual homosexuals, who would believe that title's undercurrent of stereotypical, bigoted implication.

This article makes me angry, and in a bunch of ways. I cannot believe it's being accepted and applauded, here on DU, a anything close to truth.

And now I've said more than I meant to say in the first place. Thanks for making me angry enough to rip this to shreds, because I wanted to in the first place. It was cathartic, and after reading this pile of offal, I badly needed to speak my mind.

[lumberjack_jeff]

33. Thank you. I better understand where you're coming from. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

34. Well said. The teacher in the article is a bigot pushing vicious myths. The teacher is also someone

who paints a picture of a grown man hitting on a very much underage child and calls that 'gay' instead of pedophilla. 14 years old, in a cab and a much larger adult 'makes a pass'. I thought teachers had to report child abuse? This one seems to exploit that information as a device of her own agenda, which is questionable. What she describes is a crime in the US and in the UK. Illegal to proposition children in taxi cabs.
Ignorant teacher.

[sibelian]

36. Thank you, I very much agree. nt.

[nomorenomore08]

38. I knew something wasn't quite right about the OP. You made it clear, thank you.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. +1,000

Very well said. Kudos for one of the best pieces of writing to grace this forum in quite some time.

[Half-Century Man]

46. As a reaction to offal

Considering that post was an angry reaction to something akin to excrement. It was beautifully done.

[DemocratsForProgress]

65. Great post!

[RedCappedBandit]

105. Thank you so much for contributing to the thread. nt

[msanthrope]

122. A very good post---please consider a GD thread? nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. Well said and 100% correct. n/t

[freshwest]

109. I'm asking you to post it for the education of DU.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

124. The author, Andrew Sullivan, is a gay man. A thoughtful homosexual man who writes. nt

[Occulus]

131. I have been aware of him for a very long time.

Rest assured, he does not speak for me or a great many other gay men. Note the examples he used and the POV they are told from.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

132. Then apply your own reasoning:

Apply your own reasoning and you will have to admit that you, assuredly, do not speak for him. When you state that "This whole thing is a crock of shit [...] for the purpose of furthering a purely feminist agenda", you can't and don't know his agenda.

[LittleBlue]

130. Agreed. This is so laden with politics

that logic is completely gone within the first few sentences. So many inconsistencies beginning with why women hate gays and why lesbians are also hated. Anyone who doesn't think lesbians are hated are fooling themselves.

[WillyT]

25. K & R !!!

[Warren DeMontague]

37. I'm a hetero man who has been hit on by Gay men many, many times.

Somehow I managed to make it through without freaking out.

[Rex]

40. Same here, some of them are my friends.

Should I be worried now? I mean I am flattered when anyone hits on me, but should I now pretend to be a teen and act like certain things are 'icky' or 'gross' now or can I be an adult and treat the situation like an adult?

Someone tell me please.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. I think there are a whole host of presuppositions in this article that are- at best- just wrong

beyond that, as others have pointed out, bigoted or perpetuating nasty stereotypes about Gay people.

[nomorenomore08]

43. You make a good point. Are all come-ons threatening? Of course not, nor should they be.

Granted, I suppose there is a potential added intimidation factor when one person is quite a bit larger and stronger than the other - as tends to be the case with men approaching women, more so than other scenarios. And no one should have to put up with unwanted attention when they've already said no.

Still, the OP does present things in a way that arguably encourages homophobia, or at the least, a distorted view of sexuality. Presenting sexual motives, perhaps unintentionally, in terms of predator/prey. There's a good reason why guys who think that way are considered creeps (at least by me).

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Occulus did a very good job of laying out the problems from a Gay Male perspective upthread.

Beyond that, I think it's worth noting that all instances of people "hitting on" other people, are not created equal. Some are fine, some are boundary crossing or even threatening. Ideologically-driven attempts to pathologize ALL sexual interactions between adults based upon the gender or orientation of one or both of said adults, are ridiculous.

and it goes without saying that an adult "hitting on" a minor is not the same thing as an interaction between, again, two adults.

[Half-Century Man]

47. Gay perspective?

I saw it more as applying a common sense analysis of the main post. We missed things we should have caught, because we too viewed things with bias.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. I'm not sure where you're getting "we" from.

But it's important to listen to what others have to say.

[Half-Century Man]

50. As in general humanity

I used the word, we, to say that all humans have a certain bias in them. Just by living our individual life; each one different, yet similar.

[BainsBane]

54. Andrew Sullivan is also gay

There isn't one gay perspective any more than there is one straight perspective.

[Bonobo]

55. That's probably why he said "A Gay Perspective", not "The". nt

[Warren DeMontague]

56. Indeed, on both counts.

And people can be right on some things and wrong on others, and also reevaluate their views based upon changing circumstances or personal growth, as Mr. Sullivan has demonstrated.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. How is that even relevant?

Sullivan didn't write any of the blurbs, nor did he write an opinion piece/reaction to the blurbs he posted. One can assume he posted those blurbs as examples of "the horrors of catcalling", in which case, it, IMO, makes Occulus' outrage that much more poignant.

[BainsBane]

67. It's relevant because it's on his blog

and he posted it. If he wanted to critique the letters, he would have done so. Many here seem to have missed the quite obvious point that the young man's reaction is a product of his own fears rather than a reflection of the actual behavior of gay men.

[Behind the Aegis]

70. It isn't because Occulus was reacting to the blurb as a gay man.

We don't know what Sullivan's reaction was, so his sexual orientation isn't an issue. Also, as pointed out, WD said "a" not "the", which makes a big difference. Also the last blurb, as I said, if Sullivan posted that as a "horror of catcalling" it was flat out homophobic swill!

[BainsBane]

71. Why is it homophobic swill?

It makes no comments on the actual behavior of gay men. It talks about the fear of straight men toward gay men. Are you asserting that there exist no teenage boys in America whose homophobia makes them nervous around gay men?

[Behind the Aegis]

74. What the fuck is a "straight" shirt?!

Then he "complains" to his wife after eating a shit burrito because of the "horrors of catcalling." So why would Sully use that as an example of the "horrors?" Do you think that homophobia is all about gay men being predators and straight men finally feeling terrified they are being treated like women?

[BainsBane]

76. I have long wondered why some things are called phobias

and others isms and bigotry. Homophobia or Islamophobia or sexism or racism. All of those comprise many things. They involve gay men like Matthew Shepard being murdered, or girls like Amanda Berry, Gina de Jesus, and Michelle Knight being locked in a house for ten years. They also involve language and popular misconceptions. Bigotry takes on many forms, as I assume you yourself have experienced.

I understand that for some nothing is more repulsive than to compared to a woman or have their experience somehow considered in any way similar.

If you have issues with Sullivan's blog, you should really take it up with him. He does appear to read his letters.

[Behind the Aegis]

81. The lanuguage is sometimes created for the need.

I don't know why some bigotry carries the "-ism" suffix, as opposed to the "-phobia" suffix, some have different incarnations (misandry, misogyny). I reckon that some it may have to do with how it sounds. I do know the '-phobia' causes some consternation with a number of people because people claim they aren't "afraid of" gays, Muslims, etc. It is because the suffix being used is a sociological term, and not the psychological one, though, I have seen cases where the person involved could very well be diagnosed with the psychological pathology.

It is understandable that for some they try to tie their particular "bigotry" into everything, and make it take a forefront, when other issues are being discussed. It is a fancy way to "jingle keys" and create a "look over there" situation.

As for talking to Sullivan, I see no need for your unsolicited advice. I made comments on THIS site and it doesn't require me making comments anywhere else, nor does it negate what I have said in relations to what others have said here.

[BainsBane]

82. "Unsolicited advice"

Okay. I understand that it's far more entertaining to badger me for something I had no hand in writing or publishing.

I tend to think bigotry is bigotry. It's about asserting and maintaining power. Some people choose certain groups to target because they think they can somehow justify it, but in another context they would target different groups. The impulse comes from the same place.

[Behind the Aegis]

83. So answering your post is badgering? How convenient.

Bigotry is bigotry. What I don't like is using bigotry to condemn another form of bigotry, or blurring the lines in such a way that it appears to be supporting something, but in reality, it is actually using the very bigotry it claims to be combatting. It is disingenuous.

[BainsBane]

92. expecting me to defend another person's writing

doesn't strike me as logical.

Here we are back to my original point. You and Occulus are accusing a gay man of being homophobic. It is his blog. Well, actually he accused feminists, but the source is not a feminist blog. It's Andrew Sullivan's. Yet somehow it provides an opportunity for denouncing feminists. What else is new?

[Behind the Aegis]

94. I didn't expect you to defend his writing.

I said Sullivan's sexuality wasn't an issue.

I don't know about Occulus, but I didn't accuse Sullivan of being homophobic. I said the blurbs were! As for feminists, I said nothing about them, so your jumping in this thread is now quite obvious. What else is new, right?

[BainsBane]

97. Read the posts above

That is precisely what he said. He attributed the homophobia to feminists. And you yourself invoked his commentary. And then you wrote this:

What I don't like is using bigotry to condemn another form of bigotry

And you clearly alluded to it in a previous post. Pretending otherwise is ridiculous.

[Behind the Aegis]

99. I am not Occulus.

I didn't "invoke" his commentary nor any demon spirits. You are trying your best to twist this into something it isn't. You made one false accusation after another. The basic comment I made to you originally, before you started jiggling keys all over the place, is that Sullivan's sexual orientation is not an issue (it is the same as what separates a crime from a hate crime). If you don't like Occulus' comments, then why haven't you addressed any of his posts?

[BainsBane]

100. as for "jumping in this thread"

You responded to my post to another member. You asked for a question and I responded. If you don't want to know what I think, don't ask me. It's pretty simple.

[Behind the Aegis]

101. Word salad.

I wasn't claiming your responses to me was the "jumping in" part. See, you are doing it again...taking one thing and twisting it into something it is not!

[BainsBane]

103. You wrote

so your jumping in this thread is now quite obvious. What else is new, right?

If you meant something else, you should have written that. I can only read the written word, not your mind.

The same holds true for your other remarks about bigotry.

It is understandable that for some they try to tie their particular "bigotry" into everything

[Behind the Aegis]

104. No more games. It takes two to play and this has become quite tedious.

Your remarks have been disingenuous and have desperately tried to change the topic into something else. I thought, for a moment, you were actually going to discuss the subject, but it is clear you are not; so I will no longer indulge this foolish game.

[BainsBane]

113. that you consider it is a game is clearly the problem

Writing is about communication. Obviously you did not communicate your point clearly, but rather that clarifying what you meant, you accuse me of nefarious intent. That truly is unfortunate, but it does suggest you really aren't interested in dialog of any kind. So I will not insist further.

[HiPointDem]

116. he's also an asshole warmonger. so you could say this is the asshole warmonger gay persons

perspective.

as well as the professional synchophant of power asshole warmonger gay persons perspective.

[Berlin Expat]

118. I was hit on

once by an extraordinarily handsome gentleman. It didn't make uncomfortable one iota - after all, it's a compliment.

I politely declined, but thanked him for the compliment.

Life is all about taking things in stride.

[bemildred]

141. I second that. Big deal.

Generally I find they are (rightly) a lot more nervous than I am. And they do make excellent friends.

[Locut0s]

49. There's a problem with this arguement.

1. It assumes that the man in the taxi was sexually aggressive in his advancement. When in reality he may have come on softly and perfectly nicely, the other man just realized he was still being hit on and being homophobic was disgusted.

2. It assumes there is no possible nice way to "hit on someone". Even saying 'Hi' to a pretty girl is still hitting on her and most girls know it. That doesn't mean that the person saying HI is aggressive, mean or violent in the least. Is it wrong to want to have a romantic relationship with someone?

3. It reaffirms the mans homophobia. Rarely is homophobia about the fear of being sexually aggressed, it's about the fear of the different, the "odd" about which you have no control.

4. Reading between the lines it opens the way to the idea that all forms of being hit on are disgusting, regardless of severity or intent. And that IMHO isn't right.

[Bonobo]

52. "Can I buy you a cup of coffee" = "shooting someone"

In the minds of some very angry, obsessed people.

In the rest of the world, people who are a wee bit more balanced consider it a normal part of the way people try to meet each.

"No thanks" is always an option -until the ability to read minds is gained by humans, that is.

[nomorenomore08]

57. Did you really just say that?

The article in the OP makes several problematic assumptions, and I agree with the criticisms of it. But who the hell actually made a comparison like the one you're claiming? If they did, then they're insane, but I kind of doubt they exist. At least on DU.

[Bonobo]

58. Au contraire

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125521964

This when combined with the ever-increasing meme that trying to "pick up" a woman is the same as treating women as if they were prey in a game reserve is the kind of bullshit I am talking about.

It is like some are trying to turn trying to meet someone into a crime and to equate unwanted abuse in the form of catcalls on the street to a polite self-introduction.

[nomorenomore08]

59. But they're not talking about "trying to meet someone" or "a polite self-introduction."

They're talking about repeated, unwanted attention that becomes annoying, even distressing, over time. It's (usually) not the fault of any one individual guy.

I don't necessarily care for the "antelope in a game preserve" analogy myself. But it doesn't mean they're equating approaching someone with shooting them. That would be ridiculous.

[Bonobo]

60. Yes, it would be.

But that is exactly what the antelope in a game preserve analogy is saying.

As to the issue of "repeated, unwanted attention"...the point is that, for a woman, it may appear repeated if she is not differentiating between men that approach her. Yes, an attractive woman may get approached repeated times by different men, but to the men approaching her for the first time, there is no way to know that.

Should men, when they see a woman they want to say hello to, infer that she probably gets approached a lot and therefore not make any approach no matter how polite ("May I buy you a cup of coffee?&quot .

So yes, the "hunting" analogy is quite literally comparing approaching a woman to stalking game with the intent to kill.

It is pathologizing normal social interaction.

[nomorenomore08]

61. If you're that concerned, you should read the second blog post ("How to Hit on Women").

No one is saying that it's never acceptable to approach a stranger. I certainly wouldn't say that. Part of what they're doing on that blog is attempting to distinguish between benign and not-so-benign interactions.

And what are you so worried about anyway? It's just somebody's opinion.

[Bonobo]

62. I'm not "worried".

Whey are you "worried" about my opinion? See how that works?

[nomorenomore08]

77. Okay, fair enough. Your reaction just seemed like a bit much, is all.

And I say this with no personal animus whatsoever. I just wonder, oftentimes, why people on message boards seem to take mere statements of opinion so personally. You're probably no worse than the average, in that respect.

Have a good one.

[BainsBane]

69. Why fucking worry about it?

Aren't you married? How does it have anything to do with you in any way?

[Bonobo]

72. It has nothing to do with me.

But that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about it.

If your attitude to me is "Why worry about it? It has nothing to do with you." then I can say that same thing to you times 1,000.

My comments have nothing the fuck to do with you so why don't YOU just tune out or shut up?

[BainsBane]

75. the problem is

You seem to take this things very personally. It appears to me that you take any post about patriarchy, rape, or gender relations of any kind as an indictment of you personally, which puzzles me. You thus react emotionally and don't make an effort to understand the ideas expressed.

[Bonobo]

78. No, that is your projection.

In fact, ironically, it was YOU who tried to make it about me by pointing out that I am married.

No, I am in fact out of the game -which proves that it is not because it involves me personally that I have any interest.

I have always been fascinated by society and culture. It is why I made anthropology my field of study. My interest is further deepened because now that I see America from an outside perspective, I am truly fascinated by the overboard, nearly cartoon-like nature of some sub-cultures within it.

The irony here is that I think it is in fact you who makes it "all about them".

You are projecting onto me your own tendency to conflate your personal experiences with how the rest of society does -or should- view things.

[BainsBane]

79. I'm sure I am projecting

to a certain extent. It would be hard to avoid that, but I see no other way to interpret why you should become so upset whenever a woman dares to discuss rape on this board. You respond as though you are the aggrieved party rather than those who are being raped. You obviously despise the fact that women talk about sexism in our own culture.

Whatever. Your other post is right. I really should just quit reading what you write.

[Bonobo]

80. Ridiculous mischaracterization R US.

You are skilled in mischaracterizations, I give you that. I do not "get upset when people post about rape". That is simply untrue and is yet another projection that, for whatever reason, you seem to feel you want to believe.

Read my posts all you want, but please stop with your incessant cries of "Why do you always make it about you?"

If people ONLY posted, on a Message Board, about things that specifically related to them, there would be no messages at all.

[nomorenomore08]

85. What I want to know is, why do some read "some men are rapists" as "*all* men are rapists"?

Almost starts seem like a willful misreading of things, after a while.

[Bonobo]

86. I don't. nt

[BainsBane]

89. interesting question

It happens a lot. The other explanations that come to my mind are less generous than willful misreading.

[Bonobo]

90. Ah! This is the point in the show where you imply

that I am a rapist, right?

You are vile.

[sigmasix]

120. reply #68 includes all straight men in this group

Reply 68 in this thread uses the language of sweeping generalizations about straight men being exactly this sort of evil. It would be nice to see some responsibility on the part of those that would unfairly lump all straight males in the same hurtful and misogynystic group. The author of the reply is showing thier own bigotry towards straight males- all bigotry is wrong.

[nomorenomore08]

140. Post #68 is a sarcastic response to another post.

nt

[nomorenomore08]

84. Everyone "projects" in some way. Seems to be an inherent feature of the human psyche.

Here, though, I tend to think that the important thing isn't who's projecting what onto whom, but more the bare fact that violence and abuse are so widespread. Somewhere between 1 in 6 and 1 in 3 women, over a lifetime, will be sexually assaulted. And yes, I know men are far more likely to be murdered than women, but the vast majority of murderers are also men.

The point isn't that all men are to blame for the violent acts of some - I would be the first to object if anyone suggested as much - but simply that there's something wrong with our society. Very, very wrong. I don't pretend to have definitive answers but I would never question the importance of raising these issues.

You seem like a decent person, certainly not violent or abusive. So why do you always seem to object when the subject is brought up? It's hard not to think that you're taking it all personally, when you're so vehement in your responses.

[Bonobo]

88. I do not dispute those facts.

But I dispute your underlying statement that I take them personally.

[nomorenomore08]

91. All right. I guess I'll have to take your word for it.

I'm not a mind-reader after all...

[Bonobo]

93. If you are really interested...

Look above and see the "not so veiled" implication that I must be a rapist.

It is THAT kind of thing that makes it personal.

The reality is that we are all for equal rights, but some groups need to create an enemy so as to have a "foil" to work against.

That is an excellent example of how such things are done.

[nomorenomore08]

107. First of all, that post is rather vague. Second, it doesn't refer expressly to you.

I assumed you meant #89...

[Bonobo]

108. Plausible deniability.

Fucking trolls are good at it.

Oh, by the way, I am not referring to anyone specifically.

[nomorenomore08]

110. Okay. You've made your point. I still think you're overreacting.

But we'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess.

[Whisp]

111. wtf is your problem

you are one raging and angry man, you should take something for that.

jaysuz!

[Bonobo]

112. BB is the one the came and basically said to me:

What are you posting for? It has nothing to do with you!!!"

My response was to ask her what MY post has to do with her. Understand now?

Oh, by the way, sounds like you're having some issues of your own to come here and jabber away at me. I could just as easily say that it is YOU that is the angry woman.

[Bonobo]

114. In any case, what's a little irritation compared to

someone so low that they imply that someone they don't know is a rapist.

Most would agree those are the actions of a truly vile person -as low as implying that someone is a pedophile. It is truly nauseating to me personally and yes, enraging. Imagine yourself in the position of being accused of being a molester of children. THAT is what BB did to me. Lower than the belly of a snake.

[msanthrope]

123. I find this post out-of-line and sexist. Would you tolerate your marital status

being pointed out in an attempt to limit your discussion of gender roles?

[Bonobo]

129. Thank you. Incredibly myopic and self-centered view of sexism on display. nt

[lindysalsagal]

63. I never thought about it that way before.

I take being a target for granted. Men don't.

[blkmusclmachine]

73. .

.

[nomorenomore08]

87. The one point I will concede, is that highly homophobic men do tend to treat women poorly.

Other than that, the article in the OP makes several problematic assumptions, as others have already broken down better than I could - see Occulus's posts on the thread.

[Behind the Aegis]

95. That isn't really surprising.

I personally have found that very homophobic men also tend to be very bigoted in other areas (Jews, Muslims, immigrants, racism, etc.), but I found that to be true of anyone who is really bigoted in one area or another...scratch hard enough, and you will almost always find another bigotry lurking underneath.

[nomorenomore08]

96. Very true. Some manage to deal reasonably well with human variation, others don't.

And still others are obstinately opposed to the mere notion of tolerance - as if tolerating others' differences were somehow harmful to them personally.

[Behind the Aegis]

98. Amen to that!

It is as if they look for ways to divide, and then go off on the differences. In all honesty, I think some of it has to do with a pathology of inferiority as much as anything else.

[Berlin Expat]

119. Some people

have a very difficult time in adapting to that which is 'different' to that which they know and understand.

Personally, I think it's reflective of a certain level of narcissism: An underlying thought-process that says "Why aren't __________ normal like me?" It's an inability to grasp the notion that people are different, and that not everyone in the world is a carbon copy of everyone else.

And that makes some folks mighty uncomfortable.

[bravenak]

102. This is funny and scary at the same time.

[caseymoz]

106. Perceptive, but limited.

It doesn't explain homophobic women, whether they directed toward males or females. I've heard both.

It does explain the militancy about it among males, and it does make the term "homophobic" sound more accurate.

[LittleBlue]

128. No, I think it is the fear that other men

will think you're gay.

In many communities there is a huge stigma against gays. It's not that men don't want to be treated like women, it's that they don't want to be stigmatized. This often goes far beyond social isolation, sometimes into violence and even murder.

[Hippo_Tron]

135. So it's wrong to talk to someone that you might be sexually interested in?

I don't mind if gay men hit on me. I only mind if they continue to after I tell them that I'm not interested. And that's exactly how I treat women.

[Arugula Latte]

143. "As a woman, you learn to live with that from the time you are fourteen ..."

I think it starts a lot earlier -- at about age ten or eleven. By age twelve, there is a darn good chance you've had at least one male stranger make some lewd comment to you -- and that's if you're "lucky" and haven't had worse things done to you.

[TW1780]

145. Egregious!!!

I am almost at a loss for words....ALMOST! First, as a female...I feel set back 50 years by this discussion. Secondly, how is being hit on, ANYTHING like rape; and thirdly, how DARE you compare RAPE to HOMOSEXUALITY?? WHAT?

I am appalled that in this day and age that one would even think to compare two such drastically different things. They aren't even related. As a female, I do NOT walk around with a constant fear that I will be raped! I have a healthy awareness of my surrounding. YES, I've been taught to be Cautious and safe and that there is "safety in numbers." I've been taught all the life skills to keep me safe from someone who might want to harm or "Rape" me. But I have made it 35 years and dozens of parking garages...RAPE free. And guess what...I passed "big men" in those garages too!! Come on now!!

Male or female...having a conscious awareness of ur surroundings is always beneficial but let's not get carried away, thinking every man is out to rape us just because they show us a little attention. Rape is about power and control, NOT about flirting and being interested in another person.

And NOW...the real issue for me. RAPE = HOMOSEXUALITY!! PLEASE!! What message is one sending to say that if a gay man (woman) hits on a straight person, it's comparable to a possible rape! None of us walk around with an "I'm gay", "I'm struaght" name tag on. Take it as flattery, say thanks but no thanks and move on.

To even tell a kid that a woman fears being raped like he fears being hit on by a gay male is in my mind, egregious and irresponsible of you...shame on you! Being gay, being hit on (flirted with) and being raped are three completely unrelated topics that you have used to convey a very convoluted and irresponsible point of view!

[uppityperson]

146. Welcome to DU. I think you missed the point of that article. It was not saying rape=homosexality, bu

but "victim of unwanted sexual advances by someone who has the physical ability to use force against you". I am glad you've never been raped, it truly is awful whether by a stranger or an acquaintance. But it is true, even you admit it, that we as women are conscious of the men around us, being healthily aware of our surroundings. Most men do not have this awareness. In the situation in the article, the man in the taxi suddenly became aware of ibecoming "victim of unwanted sexual advances by someone who has the physical ability to use force against you".

That was the point.