A free Palestine would be a Taliban-like state, says Salman Rushdie

[Beastly Boy]

A free Palestine would be a “Taliban-like state,” Salman Rushdie has said.

Speaking during a literary festival in Berlin, Rushdie said: “I have been in favour of a separate Palestinian state most of my life, since the 1980s.

“But if there were a Palestinian state now, it would be run by Hamas and we would have a Taliban-like state – a satellite state of Iran” he told local broadcaster RBB on Thursday. “Is this what the progressive movements of the Western Left want to create?”

Rushdie, who met German president Frank-Walter Steinmeier on Sunday, said he understood concerns over the suffering in Gaza.

But he added: “I would like some protesters to mention the role of Hamas, and that’s a terrorist organisation. It’s quite strange that political progressives support a fascist terrorist group.”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/free-palestine-taliban-state-says-155707121.html

[elleng]

1. Intolerable conflicts 'some' seem determined to maintain.

[oldsoftie]

2. Thats been pretty obvious for some time now. No surprise.

[JohnSJ]

3. Rushdie is a brave man. I won't be surprised if they throw another fatwah at him.

[Think. Again.]

4. I guess that depends on...

...if hamas is allowed to continue to exist, and since hamas is a terrorist organization, why would that be allowed to happen?

[Beastly Boy]

6. Who would stop this?

Certainly not UN.

[Think. Again.]

7. And obviously not netanyahu.

But gee, maybe if people were concerned about the horrors hamas is causing to the Palestinian people of Gaza....

[Beastly Boy]

8. Certainly not.

And that is what I see as well: too many people remain unconcerned about the horrors Hamas is causing to the Palestinian people of Gaza. Hence my question.

[Think. Again.]

9. As I mentioned, maybe if there were more concern for the innocent, non-hamas, Palestinian civilians...

...instead of all this absolutely disgusting talk of them being acceptable collateral damage, people of the world would want hamas stopped.

[Beastly Boy]

15. This is something you will have to explain to me.

I am saying I don't see enough people of the world acknowledging Hamas' responsibility for endangering the innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza, let alone doing something about it.

You are saying that if there were more concern for the innocent, people of the world would want Hamas stopped. But then, who, if not people of the world, whom I don't see acknowledging Hamas' responsibility for endangering the innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza, could possibly express more concern for the innocent Gazans to persuade people of the world to want Hamas stopped?

Does this mean that you are relying on the people of the world who appear to show no desire to hold Hamas accountable to persuade the people of the world to hold Hamas accountable?

How is this supposed to work out?

[Think. Again.]

21. It means that without broader support...

Last edited Mon May 20, 2024, 07:08 AM - Edit history (1)

...for the Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank), the fight between hamas and netanyahu's Israel will continue to harm them.

Edit to add:

Here's a positive step forward!

EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war


https://democraticunderground.com/100218963180

[Beastly Boy]

22. I am not arguing with this general sentiment. It sounds very good.

My question is, where is the broader support for the Palestinians to rid themselves of their current rulers coming from, and how do you imagine it might happen? And, by implication, where is the broader support for the Israelis to rid themselves of their current right wing government coming from, and how do you imagine this might happen?

Relying on the people of the world, the same people I don't see willing to even acknowledge either issue, to somehow motivate themselves into any meaningful action, does not begin to address the issues you raised. I am asking if you have any thoughts that are actionable and go beyond well sounding and very agreeable generalities.

On edit to your edit: This is a a significant step, but it has nothing to do with the good will of the people of the world. It is a legal move. This action does not constitute broader support: on the contrary, it is very narrow in its application. This is actually something I was hinting at in hopes you would mention international law as the authority to address the issues you raised in more concrete terms than those you previously referred to.

[Think. Again.]

23. I'm not an international lawyer...

...or a military strategist, just an internet rando with opinions on the horrific activities of both netanyahu's Israel and hamas.

But anyway, you raise 2 excelkent questions when you ask:

"...where is the broader support for the Palestinians to rid themselves of their current rulers coming from...?"

and...

"...where is the broader support for the Israelis to rid themselves of their current right wing government coming from...?"

My answer to both:

The brave, compassionate, and dedicated student protesters are working hard on building that support, they would appreciate your support.

[Beastly Boy]

24. You don't have to be an international lawyer to see the futulity

of wishful thinking in resolving any issues, let alone complex issues like the ones you have raised.

And I have yet to see a single student protester mentioning either the support for Israel's opposition to Netanyahu or support for Palestinian opposition to Hamas, let alone doing anything substantial towards accomplishing either. Not a single one of them. Most of them don't even have an idea of what civil disobedience entails. They are not protesting FOR anything that might remotely constitute a positive development.

They are an ignorant and entitled bunch of American elitists bored with their lifestyles who seek a dose of adrenaline high wherever they can find it, for their own self-indulgence. They get nothing but contempt from me.

[Think. Again.]

28. Human's behaving humanely is not wishful thinking.

[Beastly Boy]

29. Wishful thinking is not humane behaviour.

It's wishful thinking.

[Goddessartist]

26. Yes!

Excellent response!

[wnylib]

13. Well, the only country fighting Hamas is Israel,

and protesters want them to stop.

[Think. Again.]

20. No other country wants any connection....

...to the Palestinian massacre Israel is committing.

[wnylib]

25. Or, no other country's existence is threatened by Hamas

like Israel's is.

It's a war now. The massacre was what happened on 10/7.

[jimfields33]

27. No other country will accept bringing in Palestinians even temporarily.

And the other middle eastern countries get away with that. They are to blame more then even Israel.

[brush]

52. How are other countries to blame for Netanyahu/Likud's slaughter of Gazans?

Please explain. And are they also to blame for the contunued theft of Palestinian lands, violence and killings by the settlers in the west bank?

[jimfields33]

54. Those countries were begged to take the Palestinians

They ignored them. Isn’t that guilty? Last I heard if you allow death to happen and do nothing, you are as guilty.

[brush]

56. Why should Palestinians be expelled so IDF/Netanyahu/Likud can have it?

Seriously?

[jimfields33]

57. After the war, they come back.

They can rebuild and put in a government they want. Sounds like a win-win. Quite frankly the last 30 years haven’t been great for them since they voted in hamas. How about a new paradigm?

[brush]

58. A bit naive to think Netanyahu/Likud will let them come back aftef the fighting is over.

That will never happen if they're gone.

[jimfields33]

59. So sick of those guys. (N and L)

[marybourg]

5. On Israel's border. Is it any wonder

they’re fighting like their very existence is at stake?

[Eko]

10. So Palestine is not free?

[tornado34jh]

11. Who would replace Hamas if they were eliminated? Fatah and Abbas aren't exactly very popular either

Let's be frank, Abbas and the Fatah party have a lot of corruption in their party, in fact that was a big reason for why much of the Palestinians went for Hamas, because apparently there were nepotism, corruption, etc. But as far as I know of, those are the only two major parties in this whole thing. So again, who else besides Hamas and the Fatah parties are out there? It's one thing if you want to get rid of Hamas, but who is going to come in and fill that power gap? Unless Fatah does something really major, they probably won't get far.

[Beastly Boy]

16. That's the question Rushdie sees no answer to.

Neither do I, but I am a bit more optimistic: in light of the Saudis and other Sunni members of the Arab League suddenly expressing their willingness to normalize relations with Israel, I see a window of opportunity opening for the Arab League to have a more active role in preventing the Talibanization of the independent Palestine. But that will take a great deal of effort and good will towards preparing the Palestinians for governing themselves, before they take over the responsibility for governing themselves.

The problem with the Palestinian leadership, however, is that so far they have consistently squandered every opportunity that came their way.

[tornado34jh]

18. Well, the thing is, Abbas has never really been seen as a strong leader

But I get the feeling that even if he was, I don't think the current Israeli government would like him, regardless of if Hamas was there or not. Again, Netanyahu is no saint in this matter. He is a big reason for the mess. I think there is something else going on besides Hamas. When he was PM from 2009-2021, he could have gotten rid of Hamas, so why didn't he do so then?

[lees1975]

19. I think you've hit on something here.

There is a willingness, among the Arab League, to normalize relations with Israel. But how willing? Groups like Hamas have a following among Palestinians because of the fact that they are the ones who have directly been displaced, as opposed to the other Arabs, some of whom live in relative prosperity, some in incredible prosperity, while Gaza and the West Bank are impoverished. Some initiative must involve economic improvement and security, which has a lot to do with why Palestinian leadership doesn't ever seem to be able to take advantage of their opportunities.

I think an economically prosperous Palestinian state would neutralize the influence of radical Islam. That's been the problem all along.

[dcweed]

12. Rushdie thoughts

The current iterations of Hamas leadership and the Israeli government have proven themselves to be f*cking butchers. The Israeli people, locked behind their walls and weapons, are nowhere near free. The Palestinian people are free only in their choice of death; starvation, bomb, or sniper. Now, through more generations, the cycle continues.

[Beastly Boy]

33. Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East

Inasmuch as liberal democracy is a benchmark for freedom (and of course liberal democracy is not an absolute benchmark), Israel is a free society.

[Voltaire2]

39. And yet it is an apartheid regime. So it is a 'liberal democracy (for now) as long as you are the right sort of person.

[Beastly Boy]

41. Oh please, this is embarrassing!

Still playing the apartheid card...

Israel is NOT an apartheid regime, and it IS a liberal democracy. The only one in the Middle East.

https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores?sort=desc&order=Total%20Score%20and%20Status

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country#:~:text=The%20Human%20Freedom%20Index%20measures%20personal%20and%20economic,and%20Denmark%3B%20the%20global%20average%20score%20was%207.12.

[lees1975]

42. Actually Freedom House does indicate that its rankings for israel do not include its population in Gaza or the West Bank

And there are somewhere around two million people in the West Bank, under Israeli administrative control, but who do hot have any rights as Israeli citizens and who are, in an area militarily occupied bu Israel since the late 60's, without civil rights or protected conscience.

[Beastly Boy]

43. Why would you expect the rankings of West Bank or Gaza,

the territories under Israel's MILITARY control, to be included in the freedom rankings of Israel, a sovereign state within its internationally recognized boundaries, its own laws and its own liberal democratic government elected by its citizens? The population in Gaza and west Bank is not Israel's population. Of course they don't have the same rights as Israeli citizens because they are NOT Israeli citizens! They are protected not by Israel's laws but by international laws and treaties, namely the Geneva Conventions and the Oslo accords.

Are you proposing that West Bank and Gaza ought to belong to Israel and should be annexed so they could be legitimately included in Israel's freedom index?

BTW, the 2 million Palestinians who ARE Israeli citizens, have their civil rights, including the right to vote and have representation in Israel's government, fully protected. But I am not sure that even they are entitled to "protected conscience", simply because I have no idea how you define it or even what you mean by it.

[lees1975]

46. What's the difference?

Israel administers the West Bank it as if it were annexed, considers it their territory, and has settlements there, in violation of international law. It has tight military and economic control of Gaza. So both should count in their freedom index.

Are you suggesting that the Palestinian population of both Gaza and the West Bank have Israeli citizenship as an option?

[Beastly Boy]

48. The difference is that Freedom of the World has specific long-established methodology

that doesn't change with one's biases or sentiments.
https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world-research-methodology

You may find it unfortunate that this methodology makes clear distinctions between the territories it assesses, such as "whether the area is governed separately from the rest of the relevant country or countries", or " whether conditions on the ground for political rights and civil liberties are significantly different from those in the rest of the relevant country or countries", or "whether the territory is the subject of enduring popular or diplomatic pressure for autonomy, independence, or incorporation into another country", etc.

These criteria are selected for good reasons, tested for decades and found effective to insure accuracy in assessing the ranking of any specific territory on terms that are equal and consistent with any other territory.

You may also find it unfortunate that this methodology makes a clear distinction between military administration and civil administration, does not equate "annexed" with "as if it were annexed", or whether anyone else considers a territory to be or not be a separate territory.

And, apparently, they don't seem to give a feck about what other people or institutions think should or shouldn't be counted in their freedom index.

[lees1975]

49. That doesn't make them right.

This is a problem more than half a century old, created by major world powers who seem content to leave 4 million people displaced and impoverished to resolve an issue the way they determined it should be resolved, without consideration of the consequences.

Lots of talk about freedom and justice and who's doing a good job and who's not, is hypocritical as long as this ongoing problem, which is the root cause of the terrorist activity that keeps springing up, exists. Until there's a real solution on the table that will be fair to Palestinians, don't talk in terms of who is democratic and has rights.

[Beastly Boy]

50. It makes them accurate and objective.

Whether you consider accurate and objective to be right or wrong is up to you to speculate on and is besides the point. Despite your protestations to the contrary, Israel remains a liberal democracy. The only one in the Middle East.

[Voltaire2]

45. It is embarrassing, but probably not as you imagine.

[Beastly Boy]

47. I imagine that the term "apartheid" is being routinely misused and misapplied

on purpose, in order to render it meaningless. I also imagine that this is insulting to the real victims of apartheid. This is indeed embarrassing, to say the least.

I also imagine that such misuse of the term that has real meaning under international law is OK with you. I hope I am wrong.

[Mosby]

60. You're not wrong. nt

[Diraven]

14. Palestinian governments, as bad as they are

They haven't brutally repressed and policed the morality of their own people, which is the primary interest of the Taliban. Not gonna argue that they do support terrorism though.

[Beastly Boy]

17. They have. Hamas more so than the PA, but neither tolerates dissent or morality other than their own.

[ExciteBike66]

30. Are we really arguing that the Palestinians are too savage to govern themselves?

Does Afghanistan not deserve to be an independent nation?

[Beastly Boy]

31. No, we are arguing against the independent Palestinian state becoming like Afghanistan.

Because if it does, there will be no freedom for the Palestinian people, or peace in the Middle East.

And Afghanistan is a telling precedent. Afghanistan deserves to be an independent nation, but do the Afghanis deserve a repressive totalitarian theocracy to govern them?

[lees1975]

61. Any suggestions as to how to facilitate preventing an independent Palestinian state from doing this?

Independence and sovereignty for Palestinians, within the boundaries of the 1949 armistice line around the West Bank, and the 1950 armistice line around Gaza, will require the ability to achieve a measure of economic freedom and prosperity as well as personal independence and freedom within the context of the culture and society in order to keep terrorism from gaining a foothold. It will take UN monitoring, demilitarization of the territory, reconstruction and real investment in "nation building." There's a long history of dispossession, displacement and oppression there which has to be overcome and those are the kinds of things that breed terrorism.

[thucythucy]

34. Do the woman and girls of Afghamnistan not deserve

an education, or lives free of religiously motivated sexual and domestic violence?

[Kennah]

35. Like Saudi Arabia?

[LeftInTX]

44. Saudi Arabia at least has an economy. Afghanistan doesn't and it doesn't care.

[Kennah]

62. So long as the oil holds out

I think the poppy of Afghanistan will outlast the oil of Saudi Arabia as a sustainer of their respective economies

[betsuni]

36. EXACTLY. "It's quite strange that political progressives supporters a fascist terrorist group."

Propaganda Gold Medal for those who managed this.

[sarisataka]

37. And if/when that happens

you will see a chorus of "who could have seen this coming?'", "why didn't the US stop it from happening". Ironically it will be many of the same ones who are today chanting about rivers and seas.

[Voltaire2]

38. Self determination doesn't require anyone else's approval.

If the Palestinians choose to implement a theocracy, that would be unfortunate but it is not justification for the continued occupation and colonization of Palestinian territories.

[Beastly Boy]

40. "Unfortunate" is quite an understatement.

It would be tragic, first and foremost for the Palestinians, but also for Israel, the rest of the Middle east, and it would not spare the rest of the world.

How do you define self-determination? Do the Taliban self-determine their rule over Afghanistan? Does Putin self-determine his rule for the Russians? Does the Saudi royal family self-determine their despotic rule over Saudis?

All of the above notwithstanding, Rushdie is not talking about depriving the Palestinians of self-determination:

I have been in favour of a separate Palestinian state most of my life, since the 1980s.

It is the state of the Palestinian State and the quality of the government that can be anticipated
post-self-determination that he is concerned about.

[brush]

51. WTF? This is the last thing we need. Rushdie needs to STFU. Hamas should have no influence.

[Beastly Boy]

53. Rushdie is warning against Hamas having any influence. He doesn't want Hamas to have any influence.

“But if there were a Palestinian state now, it would be run by Hamas and we would have a Taliban-like state – a satellite state of Iran” he told local broadcaster RBB on Thursday. “Is this what the progressive movements of the Western Left want to create?”

[FakeNoose]

55. Rushdie says exactly that: Hamas must be banished beforehand

Anything Hamas touches turns into a disaster, and the long-suffering Palestinians have paid the price for way too long. Free Palestine will become a reality once Hamas is gone, and Netanyahu loses his job as Prime Minister of Israel.