Entire bbv.org site confiscated

[qb]

I don't know why this hasn't been posted here yet. I assume "get the word out" means "get the word out". Here's the information:

Subject:Black Box Voting files confiscated

Here's what you can do to help: Get the word out far and wide that Diebold has done this thing.

1. Diebold issued a pull-down demand under DMCA for the BlackBoxVoting.org web site, citing a link posted on a forum in the site, claiming that the link allowed web visitors to visit an unrelated page, containing Diebold internal memos, which they say they own the copyright to.

2. Not only was BlackBoxVoting.org pulled down, but ALL of the documents, databases and programming for approximately 500 pages of material, most of which did not relate to Diebold at all, was confiscated. Dozens of web pages were pulled down which had nothing whatever to do with the disputed information. AIT Inc. has indicated that it believes it has the right to pull down the entire web site including unrelated pages. AIT Inc. is now prohibiting Bev Harris or Black Box Voting from accessing any of her own files, even for the purpose of removing them.

3. The confiscated pages included personal contact information for 200 activists, and the private strategy sessions for voting machine activists. BlackBoxVoting.org has yet to receive any explanation at all as to what authority they were confiscated under. We demand their immediate return.

4. Most of the memos in question were written in Canada, and resided on a server in Canada up to and including 2003 after Diebold bought a Canadian company called Global Election Systems. In Canada, company correspondence, even internal memos, is not protected by copyright. To date we have been unable to find evidence, other than a claim in a letter, that Di! ebold even owns the copyright to these memos.

5. These memos are more properly termed "Evidence," because they contain evidence of a pattern of lawbreaking that dates back at least to 1999.

6. Lexis-Nexis would be a worthwhile exercise now for every one of these search terms pertaining to the origins of Global Election Systems: This firm was a wholly owned subsidiary of North American Professional Technologies, Inc., which was in turn a wholly owned subsidiary of MacroTrends Ventures International, Ltd. Charles Hong Lee is one of the principals with these firms; He has been tied in the press to participation in a scheme to bilk immigrants out of some $47 million; he is also connected with a scandal in which a Mr. Graye was prosecuted, relating to Vinex Wines. Charles Hong Lee was also involved with something called "The Vancouver Maneuver," a stock pump & dump scheme that bilked investors out of millions in connection with an entertainment company and something called Beverly Development. Charles Hong Lee was a principal with Global Election S! ystems, along with the late Clinton Rickards. Talbot Iredale, currently the V.P. for Research and Development for Diebold Election Systems, began with the company in 1991, right around the time the Vancouver Maneuver was exposed in Barron's magazine. This is the pedigree from whence the Diebold Memos arose.

====================================

Here is a contribution originally from Slashdot, made available for the Black Box Voting book by Donald Way.

(Diebold: This is satire and meant for entertainment purposes only. If you would like to spend several more $500 per hour lawyer fees suing us over satire, go right ahead.)

CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT

Pending: your vote is now the property of Diebold, Inc. Any attempt on your part to ascertain the disposition of your vote is hereby declared to be in violation of federal law, e.g., the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

You have the right not to vote. Any vote you make can be used against you in a court of law. The judge presiding in such a court of law may be appointed by Diebold, Inc., and need not require a jury, but if a jury is summoned, it need not be a jury of your peers.

By acting to vote you consent to our determining whether your vote is valid, and in the event it is judged not to be valid, you consent to our voiding your vote and further voiding your right to vote in the future.

You furthermore acknowledge that owing t! o storage and bandwidth limitations that Diebold, Inc., may experience, your vote may be digitally compressed in a way such that your true intent in casting the vote may be lost. If such an eventuality should occur, your vote may be determined using statistical data derived from any source we deem appropriate or convenient.

You have the right to protest if your vote is cancelled, altered, or in any way modified as the result of such action on our part, however, you hereby acknowledge that in such an eventuality, Diebold, Inc. may determine that your right to vote is deleterious to democracy as implement by Diebold, Inc., and therefore may be considered to be an overt act against the national security of these United States.

You have 10 seconds to comply.

God Bless America


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search

[RedEagle]

1. Have you confirmed this with the principals?

FTBC,

I got this notice too, but I haven't had it confirmed yet.

If Bev, David, Athelcat, Demactivist, or Eloriel sign in and confirm, then it's time to muster forces and give'em everything we got.

What I don't understand either, is why the principals haven't posted this, unless they are too busy?

Proceed with caution, let's see if we can get some backup to confirm this.

[qb]

12. Point well taken.

I don't know any of the principals. Considering the e-mail is from a Yahoo account to a list that has supposedly been confiscated, I guess the best thing to do is wait and see.

[ParanoidPat]

16. I haven't heard squat!

No notice here. :shrug:

[Melinda]

24. ^^^^ Pat^^^^ would know!

Thank you for posting Pat - the "confiscation" part of the circulated memo was throwing. I didn't receive any such email much less yahoo email, but am eased as a result of your post. I too will wait to hear directly from Bev. :)

[ParanoidPat]

31. Just a reminder to all who are reading this.....

.....Bev will be on the Mike Malloy show this afternoon! Tune in, this should be good! :evilgrin:

[nostamj]

41. Bev with Mike Malloy is 10PM eastern time

Malloy is on 9-12 Eastern now.

will be VERY interesting to hear what's going on NOW...

[janekat]

50. Yup - there's this notice on the site....

Due to a dispute with Diebold, Incorporated, and its wholly owned subsidiary Diebold Election Systems, Inc. (collectively "Diebold"), which is claiming links to certain materials that do not reside on the blackboxvoting.org website constitute copyright infringement, blackboxvoting.org has been temporarily disabled.

We regret any inconvenience this may cause visitors and journalists to the blackboxvoting.org site and hope to have this matter resolved shortly.

In the interim, send questions or information requests to [e-mail].

If you are not redirected in 5 seconds, click here.

[BevHarris]

149. I'm the principal, this is my letter.

My access to the web is a bit spotty right now, I'm on AO-Hell on someone else's account.

Bev

[tanstaafl]

182. Have you tried contacting ACLU

Bev ... you should call the ACLU for some free legal help assuming what I read earlier about the Memos coming from Canada and the way they treat them. Either way, I would most definitely fight this thing in the courts as soon as possible. I would also try to fight in the court of public opinion as well. Call / email / fax every media source you can think of and start contacting your Rep / Senator as well.

:-)

[HFishbine]

2. Question

What's DMCA?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

5. digital millenium copyright act...

Go Clinton!

This is the same act that is being used to sue 12 year old girls for sharing music online.


TWL

[madfloridian]

6. Digital Copyright law, same thing being used by RIAA

There is a lot about it at EFF and at EPIC. Same thing that will soon keep us from copying from CDs, or perhaps even taping a show in our home on a paid channel. I think it is Digital Management Copyright Association, or something like that. Pure power to the corporations.

on edit it is the act or law, not association.

[Atlant]

28. Digital Millenium Copyright Act. (NT)

[seemslikeadream]

34. Take back the Net

www.anti-dmca.org

On July 17, 2001, the FBI arrested Dmitry Sklyarov, a Russian computer science student for an alleged violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. He delivered a speech in a Las Vegas hotel regarding Adobe eBooks entitled:

"eBook Security: Theory and Practice"

The application addressed in the speech bypasses Adobe eBooks security only if you have previously purchased the eBook. Furthermore, it allows the purchaser to backup their eBook, read the eBook on platform other than Windows and is useful to the Blind. Adobe had him arrested.

Since when are people arrested for pointing out a flaw? We believe this law, which enforces a WTO Treaty, should be reviewed and challenged. Free Speech allowed someone to criicize and /or demonstrate flaws within corporate products.

[MGKrebs]

35. "Digital Millebbium" ?

Is that the long awaited bio-computers we've been hearing about?
:-)

[seemslikeadream]

45. Those bb's and nn's

too close! Thanks

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

3. DMCA is corporate censorship at work

They must be getting worried about their fake voting machine scam getting uncovered. Good.

[Sephirstein]

152. Every fucking Democrat who supported the DMCA is a fucking DINO!!!

I don't give two shits how fucking liberal they are!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

165. DMCA is the ultimate "new democrat" corporate giveaway yet

I know the entertainment industry gives us lots of money, so the Democratic party has to bite its tongue and say: "Sharing means stealing!" and sit by quietly while they sue kids for "unauthorized music listening" - it's like %$#%#$% Brave New World. Thanks a lot, Third-Way New Democrats.

[Romberry]

193. Not DINO's

The legislators that signed on were not necessrily DINO's, they were people who passed one of the most poorly worded, poorly thought out bits of law ever drafted in an effort to address (corporate) copyright concerns about technology almost none of them understand.

How many representatives or senators do you think there are who could sit down and without any help burn a CD, rip a file or even update their own OS or antivirus protections?

I don't think they are DINO's. I think they are ignorant.

The DMCA is fatally flawed. It basically renders the doctrine of "fair use" moot. After all, if you can't burn a backup of your own DVD or rip a bit of music for critical comment or even transfer your proprietary E-books to another medium for use elsewhere without facing felony charges for "circumventing copyright protections", fair use is effectively dead. I do not think lawmakers understood the full consequences of the act that they passed.

BTW, it's only going to get worse. With th DRM being built into the next version of MS Office and Windows, files will have the ability to not only restrict who can access them but will also be able to simply "self destruct" after a predtermined amount of time or number of uses.

Unless DMCA is changed or found outside the constraints of the constitution, we are all well and truly fucked.

Star Wars fans ought to recognize a sobering thought for how real it is: We are the Empire.

[AP]

202. I disagree with parts of that.

I strongly believe in fair use. However, I don't believe that corporations are required to market products that guarantee fair use. I do believe that, if they do market products with limited utility, the public should know, because I think that fact would reduce demand and, therefore, profits and possibly prices.

I do think the 10 day auto-shut down rule is extremely constitutionally questionable. You can't stifle discussion for 10 days without proof that the subject matter link or material infringes copyright.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

4. posted elsewhere but it's appropriate to re-state

5. These memos are more properly termed "Evidence," because they contain evidence of a pattern of lawbreaking that dates back at least to 1999.

They're also more properly termed "evidence" because the material (internal email) in question was stolen. One poster on the message board also appears to take credit for procuring said stolen material, and for subsequently posting it in Italy and then in Korea. The same poster then followed up by publishing photos and home phone numbers for a number of Diebold employees -- ostensibly so that these people could be harrassed or threatened. I'm sure that any information about that particular poster would constitute "evidence" as well, and if Diebold or the FBI subpoenaed that information it wouldn't be terribly surprising.


JC

[hang a left]

10. wow you sure have alot of inside knowlegde don't you now?

[FlaGranny]

11. And what are Diebold's plans?

May I ask?

[seemslikeadream]

21. Theonomic Reconstructionism: One God One Vote!

but that's the end game. Biblical law TRUMPS civil law at work on the internet.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

38. uhhh

Dude, what the hell are you talking about?

JC

[SharonAnn]

188. Here's your info on Christian Reconstructianism, etc.

There's been some involvement of the "Religious Right" with these voting machine companies and the more we dig, the closer some of the connections seem to get. Anyway, it's worth looking at and Mark Crispin Miller has been following this angle for a while now. Some of the rest of us are looking at various technical issues relating to these machines.

Thought you might find this interesting - anyway it makes me nervous that these "Christian Reconstructionists" could have control over voting machines that can be easily compromised.

Scroll down to the entry for Tuesday, September 23, 2003, titled:

Alert: Diebold-Faircloth Connection!
Touch-screen machines part of a theocratic plot?
Diebold execs gave big-time support to "Christian Reconstructionists"—who believe that ONLY CHRISTIANS ought to have the right to vote!

http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

26. you'd have to ask diebold, I guess

If it were me, however, I'd simply be cooperating with an FBI investigation of hacking and/or corporate theft. Certainly I'd want the perpetrator caught and prosecuted (and hopefully thrown into federal prison).

JC

[RainDog]

147. why is diebold more important to you than democracy?

take another example of another possibly similar situation.

Daniel Ellsberg and The Pentagon Papers.

He was, until a judge ruled otherwise, in violation for having made copies of those papers which told the truth to the American people.

According to your post and your logic, it would seem that you would have thought then, as you argue now, that Daniel Ellsberg should have been thrown into federal prison too.

If Diebold is not in any way involved in unreliable computer voting set ups, then let the information be vetted.

We, the American people, are more important than Diebold.

Our confidence in a vote which can be audited, i.e. with an paper trail which provides separate evidence of a vote, is more important than whether or not Diebold is embarrassed, at the least.

This isn't just any business issue. This is about the American's people's right to vote and have that vote counted as guaranteed by the Constitution.

Before you go wishing someone were parked in a prison and unable to further ask questions about this issue, maybe you should wonder what your priorities should be.

Even if you are paid by Diebold in some capacity...and I have no idea if you are or aren't, but wanted to remind everyone where his or her true self interest lies when voting is the issue.

[scottxyz]

168. Excellent parallel, Raindog

"Daniel Ellsberg and The Pentagon Papers.

He was, until a judge ruled otherwise, in violation for having made copies of those papers which told the truth to the American people."

The Diebold memos aren't intellectual property. They're EVIDENCE.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

154. I'll bet that was exactly what...

Nixon thought about the guys who followed up on that "third rate burglary" thirty years ago!

Can you recount how that became "the 18 minute gap", step by step or were you not around to remember it?

[PeaceProgProsp]

19. Stolen?

Weren't they on a public server?

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

29. nope

The internal memos were never on a public server. Wired originally reported they were stolen by a hacker. The BBV people originally repeated that claim but later changed it to say the material came from a "patriotic Diebold insider". Either way it's stolen.

Various other files, including some source code, compiled copies of products, assorted data files and product documentation were taken from a public FTP server and later distributed illegally.

JC

[HFishbine]

43. I'll just say one thing

If anybody does go to jail for bringing information vital to the public good to light, I will consider him far more of a patriot than some paid corporate shill.

[scottxyz]

97. Wired also (mis-)reported

that Diebold's software "passed muster" after the SAIC report came out.

Kim Zetter (or her headline writer, to be fair) over at Wired might not be the brightest bulb on technology issues if she thinks that software reported to have 326 bugs (26 of them "major") can be considered to "pass muster".

[Robbien]

100. I emailed her and said her article title was the exact opposite

of the truth.

Her response

Rxxxxx, the headline of the article states that according to Maryland, not according to anyone else, Diebold's system is secure enough to use. The rest of the article makes it clear that Maryland has made this decision despite serious problems raised in the report. The article also states that other people disagree with Maryland's decision.

She needs lessons on how not to create misleading titles.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

175. once again, misinformation from scottxyz

The report did not identify 326 bugs in the software. The vast majority of the issues pertained to election protocol and procedures. Why are you continuing to spread this misinformation? Did you even read the report?

JC

[Walt Starr]

107. Not necessarily stolen

If the memos themselves indicate criminal wrongdoing on the part of Diebold executives, then the act of making those memos public does not indicate criminal wrondoing but is actually "whistleblowing". Whistle blowers are protected by law.

It comes down to the courts now. Either the person who made the memos public is indicted, or Diebold officials are indicted. I really see no halfway point between the two possibilities.

[Occulus]

206. deep breath

Nothing is 'illegal' yet; not until found to be so in court. Also, you're completely ignoring the public interst and fair use angles, not of the memos, but of the GEMS software, manuals, etc.

Or does the phrase "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law" somehow not apply?

[Cocoa]

27. DU admins were wise enough not to let that happen here

BBVers* were doing borderline stuff like that here, and admins stepped in to prevent legal problems, despite advice from the BBVers that it was safe. I think Bev said she checked with her lawyers and got the ok that there would be no problem.

Good thing DU follows its own advice and doesn't take legal advice over the Internet. Imagine if Diebold got DU shut down!

[chadm]

53. Maybe we should have a well-planned backup strategy...

you know, another forum we should all go to in case this place gets shut down.

[Cocoa]

64. I think they do

I remember admins saying they have made plans for contacting DUers if anything like that happens. It wasn't related to BBV, it was more about Ashcroft.

[shance]

81. Is that a threat Cocoanut?

As you say so often, PEACE***

:)

[Trek234]

117. Yup

I was one of the only ones warning about it. I got so many flames (both private and otherwise) it is not even funny. I still have received no apology. Thank god DU did something or I can assure you those here so willing to violate copyrights (when it suits them, but are so quick to support them in all other instances) would have had DU shut down.

Bevs "lawyer" was a quack - and I made sure people knew that. I'm no lawyer, but even a fool knows how broad the DMCA is and that they were WELL in violation.

I also posted about other sites (of a non political nature) weeks ago being shut down like this (due ENTIRELY to links posted by members on message boards) and warning that it would soon be applied for political reasons. No one gave a damn then either.

[ParanoidPat]

32. Can you say 'whistle blower protection' boys and girls?

Good, I knew you could! :evilgrin:

On Edit: In reference to Cocoa's post, DU is considered a News Source according to http://news.google.com and as such they can not be stopped from posting legitimate news stories. (Like the faking of demonstrations of election equipment, sending employees of a foreign country across the border to work elections without obtaining proper work permits, use of uncertified code in election equipment, etc.)

Is it any wonder that Diebold insiders are dumping millions of dollars worth of stock?

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

36. I don't think so

The site was hacked. Hacking is illegal. Theft is illegal. Changing your story to say it came from an insider doesn't change the facts, or the server logs.

JC

[HFishbine]

46. Ah, I see now.

If you know what's on the server logs, you are either:

a) a hacker

b) a paid corporate shill*

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

51. I'm not sure you do

I have no idea what's on anyone's server logs except my own.

If Diebold claims they were hacked (consistent with what was originally reported by Wired) I simply assume they have logs that demonstrate that claim, notwithstanding the fact that people now in possession of the hacked material have changed their story to say it came from an insider.

JC

[AP]

76. None of the letters Diebold sent alleged they were hacke.

If they thought they had been, I think they wouldn't have only argued copyright infringement.

[lostnfound]

89. Hey - I - AM - SO - IMPRESSED that DIEBOLD has that much security

aren't you? p%$&*#(@!!

We need a tea party. (Likely, though, the BFEE would sick the EPA on us.)

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

54. ahhh there it is

The sweet stench of "plausible deniability". I don't actually recall whether you specifically have claimed the material came from an insider, although I could probably waste some time digging it up. Of course your "whistleblower protection" post earlier in this very thread implies that very claim, so I don't feel the need to do much digging.

Can't have it both ways, Pat.

JC

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

68. why?

You people don't believe anything I say anyhow.

Also that was pretty rude.

JC

[HFishbine]

116. Yeah

I will not allow preservation of democracy to take a back seat to politeness. Not me.

Get it? This is not a trifle; it's not some petty corporate squable. This is the future of America and it will not be relenquished to a gaggle of suits with briefcases more interested in protecting their stock options than the credibility of the insitution that has been placed in their incompetent, self-interested hands.

For those who wonder what was so "rude," it was a term equivelant to corporate prostitute canine.

[never cry wolf]

130. Right on, HF!!!!

You stated my feelings exactly!!!

[kayell]

101. I guess you would have sent Daniel Ellsberg up the river, hmm?

[Cocoa]

61. but they could be shut down like BBV.org was shut down

Not to speak for DU, but that's my impression of the reason they deleted certain posts.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

127. Actually...

What is in evidence is Diebold's piss poor attitude towards security of any sort.
Whether it is the machines they sell, the code they write or the manner in which they "conduct" elections.
The fact that it was at all possible for all of their files to reside on a non-password protected ftp, is proof of their lack of consideration for security.

[TioDiego]

7. Yes. What is DMCA and AIT.inc

This is an outrage.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

9. DMCA

DMCA is the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. It's the law that protects copyright holders' rights to their material. Many people think it goes too far.

JC

[ThirdWheelLegend]

23. actually many people KNOW it goes to far...

Sueing 12 year old girls is a bit too far. Maybe I am just old-fashioned and not enough new-fascismed.


TWL

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

42. it's just copyright protection

The girl in question was in possession of a bunch of stolen, copyrighted material. I'd sue her (or more likely her parents) if it were mine.

JC

[chadm]

55. tip for you

You don't have to feel guilt to appreciate justice. You can work for a corporation, enjoy the benefits, and still admit that sueing a 12 year old girl is wrong.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

60. totally agreed

It's her parents that should have been sued.

JC

[ThirdWheelLegend]

71. sued for what?

Do you know anything about the legality of this?
There is actually alot of ground for these victims to stand on, just that none of them have enough money or time to fight it. The RIAA has billions of dollars to sue and take the case as long as they want. Most of them end ip settling to avoid legal costs.

So the 12 year old girl settled for 2000 dollars.(true) So they live in poverty and now have to fork over 2000 dollars to some rich old boys network.. go DMCA!

TWL

[ThirdWheelLegend]

63. stolen, copyrighted... ever heard of FAIR USE?

Here's a good one for you.

Don't believe the hype, as in the RIAA hype. Want to know how much money from the lawsuits goes to the ARTISTS?

ZERO.

Here's a funny photoshop that is nice and relevant.

[jackcgt]

99. Are you kidding?

I always love it when people pretend like copyrights don't matter. Don't give me this tired fair use argument. How is it fair use when you never owned the music to begin with? There's no grey area here. Don't give me this other tired argument about the record companies' business models being outmoded either. It doesn't wash.

Anyone who downloads music they don't own is stealing. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter who you're hurting. That is irrelevent. The point is that you are taking something from someone that you have no right to. Get it?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

198. no one is taking anything from anyone

It may be unauthorized copying, but it isn't taking anything from anyone, and it's not stealing. You can say that listening to music you didn't pay for is wrong, but it isn't stealing anything. Quit trying to change the definition of words.

[Occulus]

208. theft implies

nonconsensual removal of property. Copying removes nothing.

Also, it's not 'piracy'. Read your legal definitions; piracy of music or software includes distribution for profit.

In what way is nonprofit copyright infringement theft?

[Pobeka]

210. Public FTP site, no copyright notices in the memos

I think this is almost a no-brainer, because the memos were posted on a public ftp site, which puts it in the public domain. Second, there are no copyright notices on the memos themselves.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[DEMActivist]

212. Not only no copyright notice....

When I worked for IBM, one would be fired if IBM CONFIDENTIAL - INTERNAL USE ONLY was not put on every single document created. An employee not following security rules could have been charged with corporate espionage.

I find it hard to believe that a corporation like Diebold (which handles ATMs and banks) didn't have a very stringent, encapsulated security process in place.

Obviously, the elections system division was exempted from standard corporate security rules. One has to wonder WHY that was true.

As for the memos, the latest ones were NOT on the original FTP site. The whistleblower who brought them to us admits accessing an https server to get them. The question remains, was it an authorized user?

on edit:
The legal question is - what ARE Diebolds standard security measures and were they compromised in this instance? Somehow I'm not sure Diebold wants to answer these questions during discovery or in direct testimony.

[Pobeka]

216. Thanks for the correction.

I would assume it was an authorized user on an https connection, it is infeasible to do a brute-force, or dictionary attack to gain access to https sites.

[AP]

215. You don't need a copyright notice for copyright to attach any longer

And making them publicly available doesn't put them in the public domain (otherwise libraries would put publishers out of business).

They're probably fair use primarily because they aren't undermining any market for the items. They're a matter of public importants and they're being read so that people can form an opinion about very serious matters of public policy.

Copyright protects, for example, music distributors from being undermined by free distribution of what they're trying to sell. Unlike music, these documents aren't being used by people who are trying to set up an electronic voting company, and it's not like municipalities are circumventing Diebold and getting from BBV everything they need to run an election.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

124. It just occurred to me...

It's the father and son team of Lucius and Draco Malfoy!

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org

[OldSoldier]

78. AIT = Advanced Internet Technologies

It is the fastest growing hosting company in the world--and I can stand at the front door of my building and see theirs. To say I'm embarrassed for Bev is an understatement.

Now that I know who the host is, I'm not surprised the whole site was pulled: the guy who runs the place, Clarence Briggs, is cautious to extremes.

I was looking around on the Internet for Briggs' political affiliations (although he's probably a Republican--he is a retired infantry officer, and that little club is packed with wingnuts) and found a beauty of a tale about his company: "The whole building is surrounded by razor wire." Not in this town it ain't: AIT is in historic downtown Fayetteville in the old Sears and Roebuck building. If he put up a cyclone fence with triple-strand concertina on top of it, the Historic Resources Commission would pitch a fit.

Bev, find you a nice French hosting company or a nice German hosting company (but NOT one that buys server space from AIT--dealing with resellers is one of Clarence Briggs' big moneymakers) and put bbv.org on it.

[TacticalPeek]

79. Cute. AIT is also acronym for Advanced Infantry Training.

:shrug:

[Warren Stuart]

103. Not

Advanced Individual Training

Though, I was 11B, I could be wrong.

[TacticalPeek]

138. Tip o' the hat to any 11B.

And I could be wrong, but have always thought that Advanced Individual Training applied to initial training in the various MOS's, usually right after Basic, and that Advanced Infantry Training was the specific Advanced Individual Training for Legs.

http://www.cpp.usmc.mil/schools/soi/aitc.htm

But I could still have a 35 year-old misconception.

[ramblin_dave]

8. Where did this notice come from?

Was it an email or a web posting? Who wrote this?

[qb]

14. It was from a Yahoo e-mail account

I won't give the e-mail address here, but it has Bev's name in it. I was blind-copied, so I have no idea who else it went to.

[PeaceProgProsp]

18. Anyone can open a Yahoo account with anyone's name

Unless anyone ever got an email from BH from that account before, it could be totally fraudulent, either to scare people or it could be something to help build up a sense of outrage to motivate people.

I vaguely remember reading the lawyer's letters posted here, and none of them asked for this stuff.

[BevHarris]

150. Again, I wrote it.

And the notice immediately got results. You'll see. Sorry, I've been too busy with ear stuck to phone and keyboard fingers flying, just now getting to DU.

[Melinda]

13. Whose "memo" is this? BBV's? Confiscated files? By Whom?

Who sent you the first part of the posted information? If it's yours, what do you mean "confiscated files"? It's my understanding that the server closed down access to the site as a result of the DMCA request, however that is not the same as 'confiscating files'. The files should not be accessible, nor siezed by, nor handed over to a 3rd party at any point PRECEEDING a legally filed complaint, service thereof and filed answer thereto.

I think I'll wait to hear from Bev, Roxanne, or Eloriel before I assume the worst.

[DEMActivist]

74. I know people are waiting to hear from me, so...

I can only say that I severed my relationship with blackboxvoting.org on the evening of September 23, 2003 so I cannot speak to this situation.

I will only say that Diebold CANNOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE have confiscated information on a website without a court order allowing them to do that.

If there has been a court order issued which compromises my personal information which was contained on that website, I implore Bev Harris to post it and let us all know what our legal jeporady is.

[Andy_Stephenson]

77. WTF?!?!?!?!?

"I severed my relationship with blackboxvoting.org on the evening of September 23, 2003 "

[DEMActivist]

80. That's right....

If you want to know the specifics, I'll be happy to spell them out.

We had a fundamental difference of opinion - I believed we should stand and fight the cease and desist letter. Bev disagreed.

It was a basic belief for me and we differed. I walked away quietly and returned to fighting these machines locally in my home state of Georgia.

[Andy_Stephenson]

82. Well...

I can see both sides...fighting them and not fighting them. Where is George Soros when we need him the most.

[lostnfound]

90. and where are the Democrats?

Are they clueless, or gutless, about BBV? Just too much else to worry about? Or not enough evidence?

I don't mean to be negative. But why aren't the candidates or the DNC coming out on the chances of voting fraud?

[Andy_Stephenson]

91. Missing in Action since

12/12/00

[Melinda]

87. Thanks for posting Roxanne... now just breathe.

There is no way in hell that Diebold could confiscate any files on that server without utilizing civil litigation - and that process must follow the steps I outlined above.

As for your present circumstances (and those of Bev, et al) -- this is a stressful time and each of you needs take care of yourself first and foremost... take time to catch your breath. Thanks for the update. :)

[BevHarris]

148. This is untrue.

And I have a First Amendment lawyer onboard. This is the ideal way to make an example of an unfair law.

Yes, it took a day or two to get an attorney who had the guts and the expertise to go all the way with this. Diebold used the DMCA pull-down notice to stifle discussion. Gator Graphics fought the parent ISP (I have several letters that document this) but the parent ISP made a decision to pull the site. They clearly overstepped their bounds when they did so, in two ways:

1) They had no right to do anything but pull the specific page cited in the complaint, yet they pulled all the pages

2) They had absolutely no right to confiscate the files, which they did by locking both me and Gator Graphics out of the FTP server.

My publisher spoke with the IT and has obtained cooperation (in defiance of their lawyer, actually) to reinstate access to the FTP and get the files, which he in in the process of doing now.

I am so far unsatisfied with the answers about how untouched the files are. I have demanded a formal letter documenting chain of custody issues, including the access logs to these documents, and I will require the parent ISP to furnish me with evidence that no one at all has looked at them or caused anyone else to look at them.

In the mean time, the case to reinstate the files is being handled by a First Amendment firm that specializes in DMCA (not EFF; it was immediately after contact with EFF that the lawyer for AIT instructed them to overreach).

In the mean time also, we are getting much closer to filing an injunction in California, and we'll either get there before the recall election or the whole state will erupt in lawsuits after the election.

Bev Harris

[Melinda]

153. Well done Bev - all those who believe in this cause are behind you

Stay safe and know that you have many supporters here.

[phoebe]

156. Diebold and SAIC's Nip/Tuck will NOT stand!

u go girl..

[Junkdrawer]

162. Glad (as in tickled pink) to hear you found a lawyer.

:thumbsup:

[E_Zapata]

166. Great!

I am sure it is very helpful for Diebold to know that you have a lawyer. And notice as to your legal plans.

They will be thanking you very soon for that public disclosure of attorney-client information.

And, we the voters, will thank you as well for compromising the whole kit'n'kaboodle.

And your attorneys will be thanking you for trashing their case before they put too much time into it before declining to represent you.

I have seen DUers who have been critical of how the bbv activists have conducted themselves which has precluded many from being able to join the campaign. I see their point very clearly now.

But the most important thing, I guess, is that Bev has at least saved face with her friends on this very public message board. That's the most important thing apparently. It would be awful if she were to have to go a few days with message board people thinking she was foiled. Even if not saving face might have led to total victory a little down the road.

It is imperative that priorities remain in perspective.

[scottxyz]

169. Did I miss something

What's so wrong with saying "I believe was wronged and I hired a lawyer to defend myself"?

There may have been SOME info or links on bbv.org (the Diebold memos) that MAY have been protected by Intellectual Property laws.

Diebold may have been stretching things because (1) it's unclear whether copyright or IP law protected any info or links which may have been on the site, and (2) there was lots of OTHER info and links on the site which had nothing to do with this.

So it is very likely that (1) Diebold was wrong to ask that any info be taken down, and (2) it is EXTREMELY likely that it was completely inappropriate for the ENTIRE site to be taken down.

So a lawyer has been hired to look into this.

In our adversarial legal system, Bev has every right to (1) hire a lawyer, (2) tell people she did so and why.

That's not blowing the case. That's fighting back.

[E_Zapata]

170. Yeah, you missed something.

Like not letting one's opponent in war know what your next move is. It's a good rule of thumb.

[Melinda]

174. Oh pulease. Litigious dancing is a well practiced art.

Bev revealed nothing the opposition hasn't been anticipating. And yes, I do have a law degree - do you? If so, I'd like to speak with you about helping out the cause. :)

[E_Zapata]

177. Don't assume so much about what I have or haven't done

"for the cause."

It isn't flattering to you.

[Melinda]

179. I'm not assuming anything - care to answer my pointed question?

[E_Zapata]

181. No, I do not care to answer your question

because it is posed in a very saracastic tone and it is, therefore, not even a legitimate question. And even if it is, my profession is none of your business. Post a response to this if you like, but I will not engage you further.

[Melinda]

183. You answered just as expected - you're obviously ignorant on the subject.

Thanks for the telling response. ;)

[hunter]

176. Again, it's not a poker game...

I respect both the noisy players, and the quiet ones.

:evilgrin:

[Romberry]

189. Question to Bev Harris

Bev, I'm a fan but I have to ask you point blank: Do you mean to tell me that you and your associate volunteers did not have several full, complete backups of everything including the various files, web pages and memos stored on stable media WORM media and local hard drives? If that is the case and you counted on FTP space located on a server you did not own and have physical control over, well, it just wouldn't be the least bit smart.

The critics of $cientology went through all of this with followers of L. Wrong Hubbard. All files must be backed up onto stable media and disseminated widely and even anonymously, otherwise you risk the DMCA storm troopers literally busting through your door to confiscate everything you have.

If you need a DMCA resistant web host, I suggest you look at the host for Karen Spaink's $cientology critic pages (www.xs4all.nl), Andreas Heldal-Lund's pages at Xenu.net or some server in RU.

So anyway, did you have complete backups of all files, folders and pages? If you did, it really shouldn't matter what was confiscated from your FTP or web space.

(If this has already been answered, my apologies. It's a long thread and I didn't see this addressed when I skimmed.)

[Melinda]

200. DemActivist did a complete back-up &- I hope Bev reads your post!

DemActivist discusses the back-up she did on all the site files further down the thread. Thanks for the links, this is good stuff to know. :)

[goobergunch]

113. Diebold will look ridiculous if they try anything against us

It seems they may have my (private, non-DU available) e-mail address. Well, if <ISP censored> gives them my personal information and they try to sue me, they'll look even more ridiculous...can you see the headlines?

"Local teenager sued by election company"

:evilgrin:

EDIT: I haven't gotten any e-mails from Bev either on my home address or my Hotmail address, so :shrug:

[Trek234]

119. Actually

A VERY strong case could be made against people who compromised code used in United States elections if it can be proved that the now public code could (or did) even SLIGHTLY jeopardize US elections.

They could be facing hard time. The headlines will not read "Local teenager sued by election company" but "Local teenager prosecuted by federal government re: assistant to election fraud" and anything else Ashcroft could pull out. (which would be quite a lot)

[hunter]

129. Here, have a cigar!

Yummmmmm! Bubblegum!

What "bad" thing are they gonna sue you for, goobergunch? Telling the little pompous emperor that he has no clothes?

Let us now chase these crooked tailors out of town. Let them wear the clothes they wove and laundered on their own crooked machines. If they are cold, let us offer them tar and feathers...

:evilgrin:

[Romberry]

192. I'm sorry bjt that is just uninformed and naive

Please take a look at the history of $cientology and their legal-action clubbing of critics all over the web. It doesn't matter if it looks bad if it works. Google on "Dennis Erlich" to see just one example of what can happen when well meaning citizens get caught up in the grining wheels of a well funded legal machine.

[MGKrebs]

15. I got the same info in an email from Bev. n/t

[MGKrebs]

17. If you go to blackboxvoting.org

You get this message (which lasts for about 5 seconds before redirecting):


" NOTICE
Due to a dispute with Diebold, Incorporated, and its wholly owned subsidiary Diebold Election Systems, Inc. (collectively "Diebold"), which is claiming links to certain materials that do not reside on the blackboxvoting.org website constitute copyright infringement, blackboxvoting.org has been temporarily disabled.

We regret any inconvenience this may cause visitors and journalists to the blackboxvoting.org site and hope to have this matter resolved shortly."

[didntvote4shrub]

20. It's up..

I just went to www.blackboxvoting.org, the site is up. There's a post from today on it, so it's not a cached page. I've been checking it daily the last few days.

[MGKrebs]

22. Hmm. I don't know what you are looking at,

but when I go to www.blackboxvoting.org I get the previously posted message, and then re-directed to talion.com site.

[didntvote4shrub]

37. .com!

Just figured it out.. I was going to blackboxvoting.COM.

Check it out! www.blackboxvoting.com

[knight_of_the_star]

110. I did to

[qb]

25. It looks like the message is legit - same e-mail as the one listed

on the blackboxvoting.org page that pops up.

[Andy_Stephenson]

30. SLAPP Action....

> I think this is a SLAPP action, not something where Diebold has any
> hope of winning in court. SLAPP stands for "Strategic Lawsuit to
> Prevent Public Participation." SLAPP actions have been honed to a
> fine edge in the world of environmental activism. The idea is to
> bury your opponents under legal costs that prevent their being heard
> in public debates about an issue during the key period when that
> debate can influence public policy or regulations.
>
> So, bring a SLAPP suit against some upstart kid who's trying to
> block you from leveling a mountain top. Sure, you've got to pay
> some legal fees to keep the suit going, but in the interim, he
doesn't
> have the time to do anything but fight your lawyers, so his defense
> of the mountain is never heard, you get your permit, and go ahead
> digging up the mountain. By the time the case gets thrown out of
> court, the whole issue is moot, and not only that, in addition
> to bankrupting that kid, you've terrified all of his friends. Every
> one of them will hesitate before trying to take you on in the future.
>
> The Sierra Club has written quite a bit on SLAPP actions, and many
> of their activists have had to face them.
>
> Doug Jones
> [e-mail]
>

[MGKrebs]

33. I've only been following this issue,

not really participating. But I signed up for that site, and if they have "confiscated" all the member data, then I gues I may be "participating" now, whether I want to or not!

[alfredo]

39. don't let them scare you. This issue is too important.

[MGKrebs]

44. Ah, I'm not scared.

In the infamous words of some punk who's name I can't recall,

BRING 'EM ON!"

Kind of weak for me to say that because I don't really have any real "investment" in this, but if they try to use that info to push folks around, I'm up for it.

[never cry wolf]

123. ditto this too, bring em on!!...n/t

[never cry wolf]

122. ditto here.....n/t

[Andy_Stephenson]

40. Perhaps this is a good thing...

If it does find it's way to court...Diebolds lies will be exposed for all to see. OTOH I might be spitting into the wind.

[MuseRider]

47. That is what I was thinking.

They will be exposed if they really want to take this on, more exposure than we have been able to get in all this time with all this work.

[Cocoa]

49. one problem

no one would defend BBV*. Too "hot" for anyone except Jerry Spence, and he's busy. :-)

[Andy_Stephenson]

52. maybe...

well see.

[Melinda]

57. Heheh. :-)

We will indeed. :)

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

56. on the other hand

In court, all of the BBVers fraudulent claims will be exposed for all to see as well. Damn.

JC

[Cocoa]

59. some tactics won't work in court

BBV can't tell the jury to put the defense on "ignore" for example.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

62. but you know, somehow I'd like to see them try anyway

I actually picture Bev frantically trying to make her case by linking the judge or various jury members to VoteHere or the military-industrial complex, or Jim March screaming "fair use! dirty hands!" while they drag him off to be some bad man's girlfriend in the federal pen.

JC

[The Night Owl]

98. For the record...

Are you opposed to the fact that Harris and crew pointed out security flaws in Diebold software or are you opposed to the way Harris and crew have gone about exposing those security flaws in Diebold software?

I read just about every single BBV thread, and your posts along with those threads, and for the life of me I cannot figure out what you are trying to prove.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seemslikeadream]

178. Yes Yes

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen it yet. I actually used Ahmanson and bagman in the same sentence early today here.

Check out www.theocracywatch.org

[Andy_Stephenson]

66. Do you work for Diebold?

or are you a stockholder?

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andy_Stephenson]

70. Now Now...

no need to attack them personally. You might wind up banned instead. Just give em enuf rope to hang themselves.

[TacticalPeek]

73. They acknowledge the sufficiency of rope themselves,

by their acts. The heavy-handed coverup is always the appetizer for the main course. I'll just peruse the wine list while the kitchen cooks. San Luis Opispo Red(faced), perhaps.

[nostamj]

75. really.

i finally decided that ignore was the best thing... it's not like you'll miss anything.

[Cocoa]

86. well, you're missing some good irony

Since you have me on "ignore", you missed my comment on people putting dissenters on "ignore." :-)

[jackcgt]

104. Yeah, they don't agree with you, get em outta here! n/t

.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

140. he or she has been here since the middle of july

so if he or she is still a stockholder he or she is a fool.

[Cocoa]

143. Don't you remember debating WMD with me back in April and May?

I'm hurt. :-(

The way I remember it, you believed all those breathless TV reports of WMD were for real, and I thought they were hype.

I forgot how that debate ended...

[bearfartinthewoods]

144. i've learned alot since then. i should thank you for teaching me.

you won't find my name on any BBV site...

[Melinda]

151. Bear - surely you remember her "trists" w/WillPitt last year

I was always perplexed why she sank her teeth into him at every opportunity.... It's all ever so much clearer now.

[Cocoa]

159. I don't remember that

what was it about? I'm not denying it, I'm just interested, especially since it's apparently so memorable.

Are you sure it was me? I'm a "he" not a "she" so maybe you're thinking of someone else.

[bearfartinthewoods]

194. well my first reply was aimed at tinfoilhat, who's profile list a mid-july

sign-up.

i do remember you, Cocoa and the lesson you taught me on taking things at surface appearances. btw...the debate ended with me still looking for the debunking of the warheads with nozzles and feeder valves.

they still haven't surfaced afaik but it seems they were another dead end or else their existance would have been leaked by know.

at least i hope so. i still fear some October surprise...next october that is.

[Cocoa]

204. they'll do something like that

no doubt about it. They have no shame, even when they're caught they keep smirking and strutting. :puke:

[hunter]

94. Cocoa, TinfoilHatProgrammer, wrong game!

It's chess or Calvinball, not poker! There is no advantage in hiding your cards, it only makes you look silly. Any "jury" will see a lot less than anyone on the internet could ask to see, not more.

Am I going to publish my name and address and phone number here on DU like David Allen does? No, because I am doing my best to stay out of trouble. So I will not be hosting or posting any "stolen" Diebold or ES&S material, nor will I be burning any CD's to send to my accomplices. I'm a big weenie, nothing like Jim March with his big guns. More importantly, my wife get's pissed off at me whenever I get into this sort of pirate trouble.

Nevertheless, I would PM my name, address and phone number to Cocoa or TinfoilHatProgrammer if they asked. And it would be polite if they could reciprocate. I always keep those sorts of confidences.

Bloody hell. I was in on this before Bev ever googled that peculiar geocities site, but I never realized how important it was until she started making noise here at DU. So I won't begrudge her, or Plan Nine, any hay they might make of it.

So go ahead Cocoa and TinfoilHatProgrammer, send me a message. Tell me what you really think. Otherwise I can only asume it's only a Bill Clinton cigar obsession.

[janekat]

65. couple of articles about this....

don't know if people have seen these yet... There's some info about this that shows up in "Google News"

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11743
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/03/09/25/012242.shtml?tid=126&tid=172
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001744989_harris25m.html

[AP]

72. So, before Diebold was alleging copyright infringement in their letters...

...and now they're arguing theft or conversion? It's not clear.

[janekat]

83. Apparently they are REALLY feeling the heat and trying every

legal argument they can find. I'd love to find something tying Bush & Co. directly to all this....

[janekat]

84. CEO of Diebold working for Bush's reelection - Anybody see this before?

It's from 8/28. Don't know if it was posted here before:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm

COLUMBUS - The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

The Aug. 14 letter from Walden O'Dell, chief executive of Diebold Inc. - who has become active in the re-election effort of President Bush - prompted Democrats this week to question the propriety of allowing O'Dell's company to calculate votes in the 2004 presidential election.

O'Dell attended a strategy pow-wow with wealthy Bush benefactors - known as Rangers and Pioneers - at the president's Crawford, Texas, ranch earlier this month. The next week, he penned invitations to a $1,000-a-plate fund-raiser to benefit the Ohio Republican Party's federal campaign fund - partially benefiting Bush - at his mansion in the Columbus suburb of Upper Arlington.

[qb]

85. At least they haven't whacked Jim March's site

I don't know if a link would endanger DU, so I won't post it.

[TacticalPeek]

92. Hmmmm, the age of dangerous, unAmerican links.

If I wanted to direct traffic to a site without linking, I'll bet I could give the viewer a google search string of parameters that would return the target site at or near the top of the list. Perhaps use additional instructions on how to select the intended site when there are multiple hits.

Furtherly, if the site's creator included a very unique meta keyword for the target page that I knew, I could reasonably guarantee a single return. And, actually, if all this holds together so far, I could actually use a one-click 'link' after all, which would simply be a script that would run the desired google search transparently.

A 'French Underground' link.

[qb]

93. Google, "Jim's DIEBOLD PAGE" and click I'm Feeling Lucky

[TacticalPeek]

95. Aha! Looks like a work-around to me.

Single return. (Even the regular 'google search' button returned single.)

Until the better angels of our lawyers slay this dragon, this seems totally workable to me.

[janekat]

88. Interesting article on Voting Fraud

http://www.bartcop.com/111102fraud.htm

16-point pro-Bush swing in 4 days....

Poll by Atlanta Journal Constitution/WSB-TV of 800 likely voters on Nov. 1 For Georgia Governor

Roy Barnes (D) 51% (up 11)
Sonny Perdue (R) 40%

** "Official Results" from the 'Diebold Electronic Voting Machines' on Nov. 5

Roy Barnes (D) 46%
Sonny Perdue (R) 51% up 5 - that's a 16-point pro-Bush swing - was it magic?


up 7 - that's a 13-point pro-Bush swing - was it magic?

Poll by Atlanta Journal Constitution Nov. 1 for Georgia Senate

Max Cleland (D) 49% (up 5)
Saxby Chambliss (R) 44%

**"Official Results" from the 'Diebold Electronic Voting Machines'

Max Cleland (D) 46%
Saxby Chambliss 53%

[Tinoire]

102. I received the same e-mail from Bev also (((((((BUT)))))))

via a Yahoo account.

I do not recall having used that e-mail address with Bev in the past for the limited correspondence we had about this project.

Previously she used an address at Talion.

It will be a relief to hear from her directly.

Not to be suspicious but anybody could have gone and registered that Yahoo address. I would like to hear about this directly from either Eloriel or Bev. They're the only people I'd trust to shed the proper light on this.

Peace and let's keep our fingers crossed.

[Melinda]

105. Is it from an aol address?

The one I received was. I'm with you and will wait to hear more.

[qb]

106. Check out the first page you see at

http://www.blackboxvoting.org

"... In the interim, send questions or information requests to [e-mail] ...."

Unless someone hacked that page, I think it's legit. She probably has the Yahoo account for all of her general mail from the public, and her regular account for the important stuff.

[Melinda]

108. The email I received is from AOL, not Yahoo.

So I'm double confuzzled.

[never cry wolf]

132. Me too, just got it 15 mins ago.

I have no idea what this stuff means but maybe someone else does.

Received: from mx1-clevoh.clevoh.ameritech.net by vma with SMTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:05:20 -0400
X-Originating-IP: <205.188.157.37>
Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com <205.188.157.37>)
by mx1-clevoh.clevoh.ameritech.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QL5J2O008276
for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from [e-mail]
by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id g.95.330016f9 (3874)
for <[e-mail]>; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:03:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail]
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:03:51 EDT
Subject: Black Box Voting: Diebold pull-down of blackboxvoting.org exceeded authority
To: [e-mail]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1064610231"
X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920

[Tinoire]

109. I can not implicictly TRUST the admin of that site

due to a past experience on another board that was locked up in a similar manner. It took the owner of the site hours to get in and try to undo the damage.

The people involved know exactly what I am talking about.

It's a crying shame but unfortunately I can't take this at face value until we hear from Bev or Eloriel.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

111. Are you talking about....

that other time when a disgruntled participant of another discussion board shut it down, locked out the owner, and then posted the personal information of all the board participants on the internet?

Wow, would hate to thing that person was up to no good again....

[Tinoire]

112. Yes so I'm frankly confused about this

FRANKLY confused and not knowing what to think. Hoping Bev or Eloriel will shed some light. This project is too important and they've done too much work on it. Either scenario is bad and I really hope this is some sort of a hoax.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: TIGHT and patiently waiting!

[dmr]

126. After reading post 118, below,

I think you owe someone who has worked damn hard for yours and my right to vote in a secure process an apology for bringing this shit up again. It is a crying shame.

[BevHarris]

155. Okay, folks, the Yahoo, the AOL and BBV.org and Talion -- all legit

I am at another location, and doing workarounds with other computer access. The truth is, my talion account has been hacked to hell and back and is also receiving over 1000 porn spams a day. So, I needed to communicate and have done so.

They are my letters, I did them, and the following addresses are legit:

[e-mail]
[e-mail]
[e-mail]

I may clean out my talion account yet, but it isn't the address I use publicly.

Bev

[gristy]

114. My guess (and hope) is that these legal actions

are going to push this issue back onto the front page where it belongs. They are a big hassle (and danger) for the whole crew (Bev and Dave in particular), but this is at worst a setback which will eventually be put behind us, and could in the long run be a good thing in that it raises the visibility of the fight to the masses. Though if Elliot Spitzer was AG of Ohio, I'd like our chances even better.

[nolabels]

115. The more they take and steal the more they must try to hide

This is quite interesting to know. Most serial mass murderers don't get hunted down this fast. Could this be a big clue?

[Kelvin Mace]

118. LATEST NEWS NOW POSTED

at bbv.com site.

David Allen
Hastily drafted into
the Voter Defense Underground
www.blackboxvoting.com

[gristy]

121. New information (to me, anyways) posted on bbv.org

If you click on http://www.blackboxvoting.org, you get redirected to the page http://www.talion.com/blackboxvoting.org.htm, which has lots of good information. The following is at the top. Who is Michael Xiang???

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diebold Demands Pull-Down of Black Box Voting

We'll get to that in a minute, but first: Here's a message from our friendly neighborhood cyberthug:

---full headers below---
So your silly little web site got taken down?...it couldn't have happened to a nicer C*NT.

Glad the information that was given to Diebold lended a helping hand in having your bullshit confiscated....to bad they haven't thrown you in jail yet (big emphasis on YET).

You sure are playing a dangerous game of chicken with the authorities. What will you tell your kids when mommy goes to prison?

Maybe you and Martha Stewart can share a prison cell?

===============
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From: "Michael Xiang"
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Subject: Your Pathetic Web Site
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===============

[Melinda]

135. Net trace:

205.158.62.67 is:

OrgName: XO Communications
OrgID: XOXO
Address: Corporate Headquarters
Address: 11111 Sunset Hills Road
City: Reston
StateProv: VA
PostalCode: 20190-5339
Country: US

ReferralServer: rwhois://rwhois.eng.xo.com:4321/

NetRange: 205.158.0.0 - 205.158.255.255
CIDR: 205.158.0.0/16
NetName: XOXO-BLK-0
NetHandle: NET-205-158-0-0-1
Parent: NET-205-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: NAMESERVER1.CONCENTRIC.NET
NameServer: NAMESERVER2.CONCENTRIC.NET
NameServer: NAMESERVER3.CONCENTRIC.NET
NameServer: NAMESERVER.CONCENTRIC.NET
Comment:
RegDate:
Updated: 2003-08-08

OrgAbuseHandle: XCNV-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: XO Communications, Network Violations
OrgAbusePhone: [phone]
OrgAbuseEmail: [e-mail]

OrgNOCHandle: XCNO-ARIN
OrgNOCName: XO Communications, Network Operations
OrgNOCPhone: [phone]
OrgNOCEmail: [e-mail]

OrgTechHandle: XCIA-ARIN
OrgTechName: XO Communications, IP Administrator
OrgTechPhone: [phone]
OrgTechEmail: [e-mail]

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-09-25 19:15
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

-------------------------------

203.86.166.58 is:

%
% Whois data copyright terms http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html

inetnum: 203.86.160.0 - 203.86.191.255
netname: POWERBASE-HK
descr: Powerbase DataCenter Services (HK) Ltd.
descr: 6/F, Somerset House
descr: TaiKoo Place, Quarry Bay,
descr: Hong Kong
country: HK
admin-c: AT221-AP
tech-c: AT221-AP
remarks: Internet Service DataCenter
notify: [e-mail]
mnt-by: APNIC-HM
mnt-lower: MAINT-HK-HKTDCS
changed: [e-mail] 20020219
changed: [e-mail] 20020514
status: ALLOCATED PORTABLE
source: APNIC

person: Arnold Tam HK
address: 6/F, Somerset House,
address: TaiKoo Place, Quarry Bay,
address: Hong Kong
country: HK
phone: [phone]
fax-no: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]
nic-hdl: AT221-AP
mnt-by: MAINT-HK-HKTDCS
changed: [e-mail] 20020218
source: APNIC

-------------------------------
202.110.220.14 is:

%
% Whois data copyright terms http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html

inetnum: 202.110.220.0 - 202.110.220.15
netname: LWGS-GOV
descr: shandong laiwu industry and commerce administration
country: CN
admin-c: DS95-AP
tech-c: DS95-AP
mnt-by: MAINT-ZXF
changed: [e-mail] 20000919
status: ASSIGNED NON-PORTABLE
source: APNIC
changed: [e-mail] 20020827

person: Data Communication Bureau Shandong
address: No.77 Jingsan Road,Jinan,Shandong,P.R.China
country: CN
phone: [phone]
fax-no: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]
nic-hdl: DS95-AP
mnt-by: MAINT-ZXF
changed: [e-mail] 20010206
source: APNIC

----------------------------------
Your Michael Chiang is apparently offshore. Like I said elsewhere, Hong Kong (and other places in the Asian basin) are particularly nice this time of year. Not to be cryptic, but "offshore" is key.

[Andy_Stephenson]

145. Someone close to me has been saying for 3 weeks now

that Diebold Election were controlled by the Chinese. Who knows :shrug:

[BevHarris]

160. Thanks for the trace! Hong Kong makes perfect sense, in fact

If you go to the http://www.blackboxvoting.org site, and wait patiently for the redirect, and scroll a bit, you'll see the Hong Kong tie-in clear as day.

It's an oversimplification to say that Global Election Systems was Chinese, but it is partially true. Good work, GB&C.

I would not be surprised to find our Michael Chiang in Vancouver, Canada, and if we are able to trace him there, folks, that will tell us a great deal, won't it?

The office where I normally work is only a 3 hour drive from Vancouver, Canada. All of the bad actors in the Diebold memos are in Vancouver, Canada. There are some very irritated people up there. Now you see why I relocated for awhile. And thanks, David Allen of Plan Nine, for the support on this continual hopping around.

Bev

[AP]

125. Wow. So you can use the DMCA to shut someone down for 10 days with NO...

proof that the material linked infringes copyright. That has GOT to be unconstitutional.

If people are thinking counterstrategies, obviously it would help to have a bunch of ISPs lined up so that you can keep parking your domain name somewhere else each time your ISP gets this DMCA notice. After 10 days you can go back to your original provider who is insulated once having received your counternotice. Then you can stay on-line until a court of law actually heres the arguments and decides on a preliminary injunciton or whatever procedure the plaintiff then alleges.

I notice that there are no allegations in that letter that there has been 'stolen' material. (I'm not saying those allegations won't ever come. However, theft and/or coversion are serious matters, and it doesn't look like they've come up yet.)

[IkeWarnedUs]

133. a couple of questions David

Does BBV plan to file a counter-notice? It does seem as if the BBV.org site will be down for 10 days no matter what, but won't be back up on day 11 unless a counter-notice is filed.

Do you know if any other BBV related ISP's (or server farms I guess) been served with notice to disable any of those other BBV sites? I assume BBV.com is with another ISP for example.

Can BBV.org be restored if the material that is allegedly violating copyright law is removed?

This whole issue has been tough to follow for a middle-aged cyberly challenged person like me. I admit I don't always understand what makes some of the new developments big news. But this copyright fight shows someone at Diebold is getting scared.

[AP]

136. It sounds like it's down regardless of whether the material is removed

and goes back up regardless of whether the material is removed.

This is basically just a procedural gagging of the alleged offending site.

Perhaps a prior restraint on speech?

[Kelvin Mace]

146. Well, no.

Not prior restraint, as we had the site up already and were told to take it down. Prior retstraint would have been if they went to a ISP we were looking to buy from and filed papers preventing us from setting up the site.

David Allen

Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org

[AP]

164. I could be wrong, but I believe

prior restraints doctrine is very vague and used in a lot of circumstances, usually with the granting of licenses for demonstrations. But I believe it was also used in the Pentagon Papers litigation (I could be totally wrong about this).

I think, anytime your free speech rights are violated anticipatorily (without a determination whethery the subject matter of your speech is protected first), prior restraint comes into play.

The situation it's normally used in is when you have something you want to publish, and you haven't published it yet. With this link thing, I guess that you're not publishing the information, and it's already published by someone else. But if Diebold were using the DMCA to prevent you from having a discussion about something else on your web site, that would be a prior restraint on that as yet unpublished speech. I guess. However, becuase they aren't citing anything specific that they don't want you to publish in the future, it's not really a prior restraint. The subject matter is the link, not the website.

Maybe it would be warranted to send a letter telling the ISP that the DMCA is unlikely to be construed in a way that results in disabling the entire site as that would be a prior restraint on your right to exercise your Fist A. rights.

I don' t know. Ask a lawyer qualified in your state.

[Kelvin Mace]

141. If I understand correctly

we would be down for 10 days from the time we file counter-notice. Since the server farm elected to lock us out completely, we won't be going back to them and are looking elsewhere.

Our understanding of DMCA is that only the disputed material/pages should have been taken down. The server farm's lawyers said the whole site had to be locked. Obvioulsy we disagree.

It's big news because the DMCA has never be used in this manner before and is a major abuse of an abusive law.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org

[Lurking Dem]

137. David...

Thank you for spending time on the phone with me today. I'm not as worried as I was (at least, not quite).

I DID manage to get my new t-shirt up today. Maybe I can end up wearing it in court! HAH!

It's at this link:

[Kelvin Mace]

142. You are very welcome

Thanks for the moral support!

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org

[Resistance Is Futile]

120. ROLFMAO

Clinton was such a great president with such a wonderful respect for the processes of an open society, wasn't he? Oh, the irony of using a Democratic law to help drive the Democratic party into irrelevance...

'Aint karma grand?

[Bud Good]

134. ROLFMAO?

I'm familiar with ROFLMAO (Rolling on the Floor, Laughing My Ass Off), but what does ROLFMAO stand for?

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deja Q]

131. The DMCA?!?!?!?!?!! How ridiculous.

And y'all know who to thank for giving us the DMCA. x( Much like the patriot act, it is being used in all sorts of non-relevant ways by corporate america.

Hell, I won't even call this country "America" anymore because the corporations have pocketed it all away, and freedoms were the first to go because, amongst lots of other things, they don't believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

[zeemike]

158. This is so depressing to me

I see a terrible wrong and am totally at a loss as to what to do.
I guess I can only put my faith in people that understand these things and hope for the best. I hope there some good DU lawyers that know what to do.

[Bushfire]

161. Hit the message boards

post on Mike Malloy's site, Bartcop.com, your local Indymedia, Howard Dean's Blog for America, GNN.com, etc. spread the word... write letters to the editors that you want your vote to count, not handed to a voting machine that has 300 flaws... refer your Congressmen to the Salon.com article, and urge them to support Rush Holt's bill HR2239... urge your senator to introduce identical legislation in the Senate... go to local Dem party meetings with printouts of the Salon.com article, and urge them to call your Congresscritters to support HR2239... DON'T QUIT people... That is what Diebold would like us to do!

[IkeWarnedUs]

163. Go to Election Reform Meet-Ups

The next one is Wednesday, October 8 @ 7:00.

Link: http://electionreform.meetup.com/

I started a thread about it.

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=412946

Meet-Ups can be a powerful tool to get the BBV story to the voting public.

[WaterDog]

173. Thanks IkeWarnedUs

I didn't know there were MeetUps. I'll sign up.

Cheers to Bev and BBV helpers! :toast:

[althecat]

167. Unbeleiveable... my guess is that what this is really about

...is getting access to the forum information...

Highly illegally it would seem.

al

(edited to remove word confiscation... sorry DA... and I hope there is no bad feelings over the judgment call issue....)

[DEMActivist]

171. It was NOT confiscated!

Please don't print that Alistair. The web site was locked down by the ISP when they invoked the 10 day freeze.

NOTHING WAS CONFISCATED.

[ConsAreLiars]

180. "confiscated"

Words carry a range of implications. The site was "seized" by the the ISP and BBV activists have been denied access to this "property" (the BBV.org site). The ISP took all access to and control over the site's content away from the owner. However the content was not, so far as is known, taken away anywhere or handed over to a third party. The situation is clarified in a more recent thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=412271&mesg_id=412271
The link at the top describes what is happening and Post #9 provides a short synopsis.

[DEMActivist]

184. Even that is not true

I made backup copies of the entire web site BEFORE it was locked down, with permission of the ISP. I informed Bev that I had made the backup and tried to make contact with David to deliver those copies to someone so that the site could be recovered at a new location.

David did not return my calls or emails. Bev evidently neglected to tell anyone that I had made the backups AND informed her of the same.

There was no time during which these files were NOT available to Bev Harris or anyone else who requested them. All they had to do was tell me where to send them (as we can see Bev's email address is all over the place).

And, contrary to the allegations, Diebold did not confiscate ANYTHING. A lot of well known, honorable people who worked hard to get this story into the mainstream media were put at risk today with the sensationalist, untrue headlines they posted all over the web.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

185. unexpected praise

Kudos to you for what sounds like probably the most accurate characterization of the story we've seen all day.

JC

[ConsAreLiars]

186. Thanks

I think it's pretty clearly established that the "confiscator" was the hosting company, not Diebold, but it's worth repeating that clarification. It was in response to Diebold's legal action that this happened, but they were not the ones who locked the stuff up.

And I'm glad you have backups if needed. As far as I can see there is still the need to get a new ISP up before the site can be restored. It sounds like the previous host is now allowing the owners of the site back in so they can move their stuff out.

In the meantime, what has been taken away from us all is a functioning BBS and information center for BBV activists, journalists and the interested public. This is a "taking" in my view.

[BevHarris]

187. Indeed the files were confiscated

The ISP blocked access to the FTP site to download. I demand, and will get, the full access log to all Black Box Voting files from the time the notice was received until now.

The issue is compromising the information -- I own the site -- and I have an absolute right to know who accessed it while it's been off line.

The other thing we're going to ramp up now is investigation into the activists who jumped ship to file qui tam. Reporters don't have a gag order, they can nose out all the info they want.

[Romberry]

191. Bev, you own the domain

...which is the site but you apparently don't own and have phsyical access to the servers on which it resides. What you are saying here is not a lot different from the driver who tells the police "But I had the right of way!" after an accident when asked why they didn't bother to look before pulling into the intersection of a four way stop.

If the issue is the files, DEMActivist says he (she?) has a full and complete backup (I hope he/she verified the backup's integrity.) so it is only the copies of the files which were on the server that were confiscated. If that's the case, I think the language you chose ("all the files were confiscated") is not well chosen since it is misleading and unneccessarily alarmist.

My previous questions about backups to both you and DEMActivist still stand.


If the real issue is "compromising the information -- I own the site -- and I have an absolute right to know who accessed it while it's been off line", that's a horse of a different color from "confiscated" files.


One last thing and then I'll shut up until I hear back from you and DEMActivist on these questions: You and everyone involved in this project should be using some sort of encryption program like PGP for all email and all stored files, an SSL server for all communication with the web site and secure FTP for all uploads and downloads. That's just basic security and should be common sense on a project like this.

[bpilgrim]

207. is that information publicly available?

hopefully someone will contact me I would love to discuss our current situation with a reporter ;->

http://new.GlobalFreePress.com/mnogosearch/search.cgi

:hi:

peace

[Cocoa]

209. Qui tam!

That's the thing Bartcop was after, right? :-)

Do you have time to ramp up an investigation into the treacherous activists? Don't you have a book to finish?

[bpilgrim]

211. why do you constantly disrupt these threads

:shrug:

:hi:

peace

[Cocoa]

213. it's not disrupting

It's entirely relevant to point out that "qui tam" was the same accusation that Bev Harris made, here at DU, against Bartcop that she's now making about Demactivist.

It was extraordinary. Bartcop actually registered here to answer the charges.

[Romberry]

190. OK, so are you telling me that until...

...you knew the site was about to be locked down that you did not have complete backups of every file, page and folder?

I would have a hard time understanding why anyone with any computer or data experience at all would not have a complete backup done every day or at least done weekly with incremental backups done daily.

[DEMActivist]

203. That's simply not the case

The only thing that we needed to back up were the most recent posts on the message boards.

We had, in fact, just moved the site to this hosting company because we'd been kicked off another one on September 9th.

As for the contents of the site, please understand that there was nothing on that site except a daily blog and a message board. There was nothing sensitive enough to attract the authorities or hackers. To have done so would have been like attracting a moth to the flame.

As for the important/sensitive files, suffice it to say that they are protected and in the hands of many.

[Romberry]

195. Urgent to DEMactivist

If you have full and complete copies of everything, I am of the strong opinion you should make hard copies to WORM media like CD-R and/or DVD-R and then immediately put them out into the wild with trusted friends and/or associates who will in turn do the same.

Google on "Scientology + Dennis Erlich" and you'll understand why.

[Kelvin Mace]

196. Let's be clear here

I failed to return one phone call, which I missed on my answering machine.

I do not have any emails mentioning backups until last night.

At that point, we had already gained ftp access, and I posted that fact to bbv.com last night as well.

Folks can argue whether "confiscated" was the correct word to use, but we were denied access to the site until yesterday.

I called the lawyer for the server farm and got a call back from the VP of the company who told me he lawyer was out of town and would be back Monday. I asked him to let us have access to the files, he said his lawyer said they couldn't do that. We argued back and forth for a while and ended the call. The argument was quite civil, no shouting involved. He called back a little while later and said he had a meeting with the tech staff and they decided tha lawyer was wrong. While they would continue to block HTTP access to the entire site, they would open the ftp port up. I thanked him, waited to see if that would happen, then when it did, started downloading the files.

It was after this that I learned from you that backups existed.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org

[Romberry]

197. David, would you do me the favor of answering...

...as best you can the direct questions I linked to in this post?

Ihe very idea that there were no complete backups until such time as Diebold took their action to have the server shut down and BBV activists locked out is very hard for me to wrap my brain around.

[Kelvin Mace]

199. I was unaware there was a backup until

I was told by DemA last night. I was not happy about the prospect that there wasn't, but I don't run the org site. I was delighted to learn there was.

Acting on the assumption there wasn't, I pursued the course I did.

I have the site on my computer right now and am waiting to see what our next step will be.

David Allen
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org

[AP]

201. DemActivist could only have publicly accessible stuff from that site

was there private stuff on that site (emails, unlinked files, etc.)?

[DEMActivist]

205. No.

As I posted earlier, there was only the message board, a blog and the documents activists had prepared for others to use.

Anything else would have been the same as attracting a moth to the flame.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

217. a slight clarification, if I may

Diebold only sent a letter advising of very specific content they claimed infringed on their copyright, and asking that it be removed. They in no way, shape or form demanded that the entire server be shut down, or that any BBV activists be locked out.

Upon receipt of that letter, AIT (the hosting company) made the decision to shut down the entire site... apparently including FTP access for the owner, etc. Overkill? Probably... but hosting companies tend to do what they feel is in their own best interests.

It's a gross distortion of the truth when the BBV crew characterizes what happened as some variation of 'Diebold shut down the server and confiscated the files'.

You're totally right about backups, and it appears that DEMActivist did have one.

JC

[Skinner]

214. I'm locking this thread, with a comment.

People on all sides of this issue need to remember that it is possible to hold a differing point of view without being a troll, disruptor, Republican, plant, Diebold employee, etc.

To boths sides I say: Please feel free to make your case. BUT STOP TRYING TO SMEAR THE PEOPLE AND THE MOTIVES OF THE OTHER SIDE.

Neither side is served by the current state of this discussion on DU. It makes all of you look like religous converts embracing the One True Faith, rather than open-minded truth-seekers.

Skinner
DU Admin