OK, gang, Christians are not the enemy!

[drb]

Let's get this straight. I imagine I'll be flamed at least "well-done" on this post, but what the heck.

Christians, real Christians, are peacemakers who care for the least, the last and the lost. They care for the sick, the poor and the aged. They tell the truth, even when it's unpopular, and even when it involves skin off their hide.

The enemy is another group. Those people are called "assholes." Yes, there are people who are in reality assholes who claim to belong to the Christian group, but if you skim through the "sermon on the mount" and the "beatitudes," you can sort out the two groups yourself pretty quick.

Let's take some simple examples:

Tom DeLay: Liar; thus, he's an asshole.

Mother Theresa: Gives her life for the poor and sick; Christian

Karl Rove: Liar; thus an asshole.

Bush: Lies and starts wars; thus, he's an asshole.

Pope John Paul: Honest and a peacemaker; Christian.

Pat Robertson: Calls for killing; thus, he's an asshole.

Bill Moyers: Speaks for truth and aid to the poor; Christian.


See, it's real simple when you get the ground rules down!

There are also those of us who are Christian and non-assholes (at least for the purposes of this discussion, although my wife might not give you 100% on this one), and greatly distressed to see our names (and God's name, for that matter) being dragged through the mud.

[Agnomen]

1. Jimmy Carter - righteous Christian

[Disturbed]

7. The late Pope, questiobable.

He had a lot of qualities but his negative views regarding homosexuals and not being aggressive about pedophiles in the Priesthood and his anti-Liberation Theology don't qualify him for Sainthood or maybe even a great Christian.

Classifiying is not as simple as you state it is.

[BurtWorm]

9. But the Pope was a Christian.

No getting around that fact, no matter what anyone thinks of him.

[oasis]

35. Jesse Jackson - imperfect Christian. Thank God he's on our side.

:woohoo: O8) :woohoo:

[nemo137]

38. 2 Things

1.) For those of you telling us to "Take back our religion." The fudies don't own our religion. What they do own, however, is a tremendous and well developed soapbox. They've bilked their people of massive amounts of money. "Real" Christians or "Progressive" Christians or Christians "who can tell their asses from their elbows" have what we call scruples, and therefore don't have the monetary advantage. So if you want us to "take back out religion," help us get a liberal alternative TV channel on-air, and then hire us as commentators, rather than raging fundies.

2.) On the subject of the "Christian/Asshole" argument, there's a line in the Bible that says "by their fruits you shall know them." The idea being, that a good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree bears bad fruit. The fruits of the spirit, in Christian theology, include love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness and self control, which seem to be glaringly absent in many of the more prominent fundie leaders. So if we're looking for a rubric for who is a Christian and who is a pharisee asshole, we can use that as a rubric, yes?

[Peter Frank]

39. Very Similar to My thoughts...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5021160#5021574

[Lex]

2. You guys need to take steps to take your religion back then

because the right-wing hate-mongers have taken it away from you.

And I seldom see anyone standing up to them from the progressive side of Christianity.

[texpatriot2004]

12. Check out the Christian Alliance it's for progressive values

wwwchristianalliance.org

[Erika]

13. Good post

I'm in awe as how Republicans could negate Christ's Golden Rule without a 2nd thought. Pre-emptive strike is totally UnChristian as is Bush's programs to cut help to our most needy.

[mestup]

17. Agree. "Christian" is being co-opted. Same as "liberal" was.

[renate]

40. thank you, mestup

and thank you, drb!

Being Christian should NOT be embarrassing, but these days it is--not because of the actions of real Christians but because the actions of faux, glory-seeking Christians are so cynical and mean.

Lots and lots of bad things have been done in the service of power under the label of Christianity. Well, you can slap the words "real chocolate" on a bag of chocolate-flavored chips, but that doesn't make them accurate. They'll still fool some people--but not all.

[mestup]

41. Carob Christians?

LOL.

My 80 something Christian mother recently commented on the rise of evangelicals in this country. Shaking her head at their hate and vehemence, she said, "You know, if Jesus came to earth today these people would crucify him all over again."

She was genuinely sad.

[drb]

24. We're a little busy right now trying to take our freakin' country back!

But Christianity is on the list - trust me! ;)

[FreedomAngel82]

31. You think it's that easy?

You try it. God calls us to be peacemakers and to do things that your left hand doesn't see. If people actually follow their Bible's who call themselves Christians on the right they'd all be democrats or independents.

[adnelson60087]

3. Pope JP2 was anti-condom

in societies like those in Africa and Asia. How many people, especially women and children, died simply because they had no access to condoms? How many hiv-positive men didn't even consider condoms since the Pope was against it?

I am not hostile to Christians, but I am hostile to religion in general, as it seems to work against all the good humanity COULD achieve.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. Organized religion

It's nice to have a place to worship and study and fellowship with like-minded religious people but look at the "religious right". Now they're a cult.

[mmonk]

4. But alot of organized Christianity

says we are the enemy. Therein lies the problem. Democrats have been even kicked out of churches for being democrats.

[opiate69]

5. Oy...

[BurtWorm]

6. No true Scotsman argument is a logical fallacy.

The people you call "assholes" call themselves Christians. The truth is, there are a lot of Christians who are assholes. And vice versa.

[wtmusic]

8. All organized religions are the enemy

Any philosophy worth its salt shouldn't require:

1) Paying any money
2) Having meetings with other believers
3) Trying to get others to sign on

On the other hand, one can have truly Christian values and think Jesus was nothing but a con job.

[Union Thug]

19. Agreed. Progressives and Jesus share similar values...but..

those prone to religion in the US (and I'm not talking about the few that are coherent enough to break through the hayseed hick variants) are easily manipulated by anyone waving a bible, follow blindly without question, and are easy marks for marketing culture.

In my opinion, the US variant of xtianity does nothing but breed reactionary yahoos with a shared commodity fetish (ie. Walmart bible thumpers)

Sorry, broad brush, but I've had enough of the jesus freak lecturing and am close to telling everyone of them where they can shove thier "good book"..

Grrrr...

[Chan790]

10. As a non-Christian...

I think it's pretty spot-on...although I'd definately move JP II to asshole (he can be both but he definately doesn't belong in the same category as Mother Theresa or Bill Moyers without a caveat)...he's pretty much the reason I'm not a catholic anymore.

I'm not sure how it fits into the beatitudes but being a quisling to homophobes, chauvinists and those who'd obfuscate investigations into sex abuse and pederasty tarnishs one in the eyes of any "God" who may exist. (It's certainly not doing unto the least among us like we'd do unto him, in any case) He did great things early-on but by the time I became a teen (I'm 25 now) his mind and body were too far gone for him to remain in his position. Sorry if this is flamish, but JP II is no better than Jerry Falwell, James Dobson or Pat Robertson in my book.

[Neil Lisst]

16. Religion is troubling across the board

Religion is troubling across the board. I don't care what anyone believes, it's their actions I worry about.

As Dems, however, we have to face a reality: we cannot win if we are perceived as hostile to Christianity. I wish that were not true, but it is, and we're getting killed by the churchgoers more and more.


------
TERROR ALERT!
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst/

[niyad]

11. mother theresa--friends with thives like charles keating, full of herself

try reading some of the real story behind this woman, think you will change your mind about her placement.

don't forget that jp2 came to the papacy after the VERY suspicious death of jp1--who, the day he died, was going to name names in the bank of rome scandal and was also going to start taking steps to bring the church into the 20th century.

[jonnyblitz]

20. check this out ..an article written by an ex-nun that worked for her.

"Mother Theresa's House of Illusions" by Susan Shields

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/shields.htm

[FreedomAngel82]

36. Wow

I never knew that about all of that. Doesn't sound like the God and Christ I know in my Bible. Very opposite in fact. Wow. This is a real eye opener for me. Thanks for sharing this.

[hyphenate]

14. I agree with you

and if I'm making a tirade on so-called "Christians" I will preface it with RRR (Radical Religious Right) to point out the "enemies" of the people.

True Christians would empathize more with liberals in the first place than they ever could with the pukes. True Christians help others. True Christians would not justify killing someone for any reason. True Christians might not like what someone is doing, but they can't make judgements on others, nor can they make decisions for anyone but themselves. These are truths. These are the things the right, in all their horror and intolerance don't understand.

[texpatriot2004]

15. True Christians are NOT the enemy but the Anti-Christ is and his

minions are (RW "Conservative Christian" Pharisees) who worship Je$u$, false prophets and evil masquerading as "a man of faith."

[sepia_steel]

18. Some moral people may be offended to be called a Christian just because

they live by the Golden Rule.

I'm not one of them - I'm not religious, either. Just a heads-up.

I'm all about people showing the faux Christians what Jesus really had in mind - love and compassion.

[BlueEyedSon]

21. "The last christian died on the cross" - Nietzsche nt

[McKenzie]

22. "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.

Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mahatma Gandhi

From what I can tell Jesus was a real person and not divine. His teachings were based upon the values held by the Nazarene Church which promoted what we would probably term "socialism"; more or less anyway. Moreover, the early Roman Church effectively wrote women out of history so their work can be regarded as the ground zero of western patriarchal society. Hitherto women were equal partners in society and even held priestly office.

The Roman Church bastardised the biblical texts to the point of leaving out those parts that did not square with their agenda. And, much of the messages in it say very different things to those we read in the several times translated King James (who was gay apparently) version. Relying on the King James version for revealed truth is, therefore, a tad unwise.

If Christians were to be true to their roots anyone mildly right wing would not be a Christian. The faith is about humility, forgiveness, compassion and all the values any decent human being would hold dear.

I'm not a Christian btw.

<edit> grammar

[drb]

23. Obviously, it would be easy to write a five hundred page book....

...on this subject, separating the true Christians from the assholes. It's a tricky business, as one person's Christian may be another's asshole - pope JPII, for an obvious example.

There are a lot of people who hang around church and call themselves "christians," just because it's good for business. Jesus met some of those types, too.

Jesus had a lot to say about a "holier than thou" attitude, none of it positive.

Remember - when you see someone who claims to be a "christian" advocate killing, or cutting welfare, or tax breaks for the richest of the rich - don't think "christian." Think "asshole."

[rawtribe]

25. I don't have a problem with people

whose imaginary friends lead them towards good deeds. Unfortunately most people use their imaginary friends to justify evil acts against those they dislike.

[gumby]

26. What "gang" are you talking to?

It is only a right-wing divisive tactic to promote that "liberals" hate "Christians" and are are the "Enemy."

You are 'framing' your statement through a right-wing definition. Yeah, some 'guys' are 'assholes.' However, by your either/or presentation, you are setting up a false comparison.

This country overwhelmingly defines itself as "Christian" (like 90+%). So who, exactly is dragging your (and God's) name through the mud?

You are arguing against a delusion.

[drb]

32. Excellent point about right-wing tactices! Absolutely!!!

nt

[Carolab]

27. Who said they were? Just maintain separation of church & state.

That's all I want.

Let the crazy fundies do and say whatever they want, on their OWN dime and their OWN time.

[porphyrian]

28. I heard Mother Theresa wasn't that good a person.

Sure, she prayed with lepers, but she also fanatically opposed birth control in the most overpopulated place on the planet and urged the poor to think of their suffering as a gift from God. Doesn't that make her both an asshole and a Christian?

[Az]

29. Problem

Jesus isn't around to tell us who is or is not a Christian. We really do not have any basis for deciding whether a person is a Christian or not except for what they define themself as.

Now the bible is a big book. And trust me I can wrap a person's head around a multitude of contradictions and easily misinterpretted quotes and references. A book as complex as the bible is going to result in a multitude of interpretations. And again there is that problem of not having anyone around that can actually confirm the interpretations as being right or wrong.

So the issue of whether the interpretations of the bible are right or wrong are judged by us on our current social understanding of right or wrong. And the thing of that is that our social determinination of right and wrong are adaptive. We keep discovering aspects of ourselves that revise our sense of morality.

Into this adapting and evolving sense of morality the vast range of Christian belief finds itself awash within the chaotic waves. Some Christians adapt along with society. They embrace the new understandings and entwine them with their particular understanding of Jesus' teachings. Other Christians do not accept the "corruption" of society and instead try to hold to moral values that come from previous generations and were defended by previous interpretations of the doctrine.

Thus you have Christians that embrace diversity and tolerance and then you have Christians that see tolerance of such things as corruption and evil. Both groups are Christian. Both groups believe the other group is corrupt.

And of course the rest of us watch as the more vocal group of Christians attempt to revoke our rights and destroy the founding principals of our nation.

They are Christians. They just happen to be Christians with regressive moral values.

[FreedomAngel82]

30. And also Jimmy Carter

I'm proud to call myself a Christian and a democrat with men like Jimmy Carter.

[shugah]

33. it's kind of simplistic, your rating system

liars are assholes, catholics are christians...

while i'm sure your intentions are pure, and that you hope your insightful post about who the real enemy is, what constitutes christian/non-christian, christian/asshole will suddenly make all on DU "see the light" (that's your phrase, right, christian? i used it on purpose ;-) ).

there is plenty more about delay, rove, bush, robertson (etc) that makes them "assholes" (your term). the fact is, they are christians.

as far as mother theresa - isn't she the source for a somewhat incoherent bumper sticker i see often? something about poverty/lifestyle? the pope JPII - what did he do about the pedophiles in the church? (both catholic christians did good, but they also did harm)

bill moyers speaks truth. i don't know much more about him - particularly, i don't know what religion he may claim to be a part of.

if you are greatly distressed to see your religion co-opted by the likes of bush, rove, robertson, dobbson, buchanan, et al, then i guess you ought to do something about it. in case you haven't noticed, it is the christians that are assholes (by your definition) that are getting all the press.

[Peter Frank]

37. A Biblical & Basic Truth...

God didn't invent political parties -- they invent & reinvent themselves generally along the lines of either genuine conscience or political expediency.

Beware the party which wishes to be seen publicly as Godly; and relies heavily speaking of its values (while failing the Biblical test true believers -- we will be judged according to our works).

...A bit of Eastern wisdom, "A picture's worth a thousand words." No amount of words and speeches will dispel the picture emerging from the acts of America's ruling party.

This picture is being reflected in the approval ratings.